Other OU Theorymon [Revamped]

[SirSkit]

Interesting Slate o-o

Shadow Tag Dusknoir Holy cow, that is one hell of a buff! Arguably the best ability in the game tbh... With its access to taunt, Dusknoir is just amazing at trapping and destroying walls, Chansey and Skarmory in particular. I'm not too sure what else Dusknoir could do outside of that however, since it lacks power, good resistances, and reliable recovery. It does have some competition with Gothitelle i guess, but Dusknoir has Pain split + Will-o-wisp. Shadow Tag WoW does help ensure that physical mons don't avoid the WoW. Definitely wanna watch this one.

Recover Politoed Eh... Not too sure what to think of this one. I guess it helps capitalize on Politoed's mediocre bulk, as well as keep the team's rain inducer around longer. Definitely has competition with lots of other bulky water types, like Vaporeon, Jellicent, and Milotic though. The main thing Politoed has over these guys are access to Drizzle, Encore, and Perish Song. Most sets will most likely be the same, except with recover somewhere. Maybe you could try the gimmicky Perish Song + Whirlpool set? Not one of my favorites one the slate though.

Magic Guard Moltres I don't really have much experience with using Moltres, so my input might not be really valuable here :I Shedding that horrid x4 SR weakness lets it run its sets waaaaay better. I could see it running Specs or a bulky defog set. I don't really have much to say about this one... so yeah. (kinda questioning the flavor, maybe reference to a phoenix maybe?)

Rough Skin Chesnaught Chesnaught won't really change much in terms of the sets it runs, but Rough Skin is still an interesting buff. Paired with Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, Leech Seed, and Spiky Shield, Chesnaught can punish lots of choiced mons with passive damage. Honestly, it seems like a minor buff, although neat, not sure if it makes Chesnaught any more viable than it is now.

 

[Sun King]

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 160 SpD / 100 Spe
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic/Will o Wisp
- Roost
- Flamethrower

This set right here can counter Landorus, Mega Gardevoir, and can burn (and then counter if burned) Mega Medicham. If you're looking for something to breathe new life into any defensive play style, I promise you, Moltres can do it.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Woah, new slate. Where have I been?

Shadow Tag Dusknoir was my idea, and I did it specifically thinking what can trap and KO the best special walls in the game to set up a special sweeper like Gothitelle sets up Gyarados. The answer was Dusknoir because of moves like taunt, pain split, WoW, curse, and others let it beat walls, while Shadow Sneak lets it trap and revenge kill something Gothitelle definitely cannot.

It also can cripple any physical attacker with an unavoidable WoW. It can survive most unboosted attacks and WoW to the attacker's frustration. Not exactly a niche on its own, but useful late game.

I also chose Dusknoir because of its horrendous HP. If it's taking hits, it won't be able to reliably trap and kill more than 1 or 2 pokes before its utility is reduced to a revenge killer, meaning there's no chance of a Gengarite level trapper happening, but there is a very realistic chance of a decent trapper with a reliable affect on the battle happening.

Recover Politoed isn't too exciting to me as the only way I've ever used it is either switch in and right back out, only sometimes attacking on a predicted switch, or with a choice specs wallbreaker set, and neither of those would use recover. I can see this being good, but not something I'd use.

Magic Guard Moltres has definite use. It's immune to all entry hazards and can run defog to clear them, which is very good. It can stall opponents and not suffer passive damage itself, which is very good. It can attack decently, which is very good. Main problem is that people are already very good at dealing with this typing, and Heatran, scarfed stone edgers, Gothitelle, bulky water types, and a few others like Thundurus won't have any trouble with this guy. He probably has utility, but I'm reserving my right to judge.

Rough Skin Chesnaught is a good idea, but I agree that it would greatly miss Bulletproof. It's not like anyone attacks Chesnaught with a contact move anyway.

 

[escarlata]

Honestly the only reason why Moltres was effective in SubRoost is because of Pressure, allowing her to stall out Stone Edges and Hydro Pumps easily. SubRoost without pressure is outdone by Talonflame. Hence if it drops out on Pressure, I don't think utilising sub is that good anymore. Best set for MG Moltres would probably be as an offensive Defogger, or perhaps Sash revenge killer with rather good coverage. Choiced sets are pretty viable too. Btw it fits the flavor not because it is a phoenix, but because it is a fried chicken and KFC does not rot

Recover Politoed and Rough Skin Chesnaught are not really relevant considering Politoed rarely need to stay alive for that long, and no one will use physical attacks on Chesnaught anyway.

Having said that, Dusknoir is actually a pretty good idea. It can pull off a Toment + Protect + Curse/Wow/Toxic sheranigans pretty well thanks to Shadow Tag. Other of the benefits have already been mentioned by kaiyu above me, so I shall leave it at that.

 

[Sun King]

Woah, new slate. Where have I been?

Shadow Tag Dusknoir was my idea, and I did it specifically thinking what can trap and KO the best special walls in the game to set up a special sweeper like Gothitelle sets up Gyarados. The answer was Dusknoir because of moves like taunt, pain split, WoW, curse, and others let it beat walls, while Shadow Sneak lets it trap and revenge kill something Gothitelle definitely cannot.

It also can cripple any physical attacker with an unavoidable WoW. It can survive most unboosted attacks and WoW to the attacker's frustration. Not exactly a niche on its own, but useful late game.

I also chose Dusknoir because of its horrendous HP. If it's taking hits, it won't be able to reliably trap and kill more than 1 or 2 pokes before its utility is reduced to a revenge killer, meaning there's no chance of a Gengarite level trapper happening, but there is a very realistic chance of a decent trapper with a reliable affect on the battle happening.

Recover Politoed isn't too exciting to me as the only way I've ever used it is either switch in and right back out, only sometimes attacking on a predicted switch, or with a choice specs wallbreaker set, and neither of those would use recover. I can see this being good, but not something I'd use.

Magic Guard Moltres has definite use. It's immune to all entry hazards and can run defog to clear them, which is very good. It can stall opponents and not suffer passive damage itself, which is very good. It can attack decently, which is very good. Main problem is that people are already very good at dealing with this typing, and Heatran, scarfed stone edgers, Gothitelle, bulky water types, and a few others like Thundurus won't have any trouble with this guy. He probably has utility, but I'm reserving my right to judge.

Rough Skin Chesnaught is a good idea, but I agree that it would greatly miss Bulletproof. It's not like anyone attacks Chesnaught with a contact move anyway.

As a stall player, I can respect things that can completely dismantle my teams; as such, I do like what you've submitted here. My biggest problem with Dusknoir is that Stall as a play style has REALLY gone down in viability since the Aegislash ban. Because of things like Mega Medi, Mega Garde, and Mega Heracross, we've had to spread our teams pretty thin in order to counter them AND the rest of the meta (it can be done, but it's just a lot harder…teams are much less airtight than--say--June). Introducing something like Shadow Tag Dusknoir would REALLY be adding insult to injury, and unfortunately would make the play style even LESS viable.

Moltres, on the other hand, helps to alleviate this problem (as I've probably harped on long enough). While, yes, its typing does have a very exploitable weakness, I believe that it more than makes up for it with what it brings to the team. Magic Guard Moltres probably won't be something all that great for heavier offensive teams (although a specs set could function as an excellent hit-n-run attacker with Hurricane/Fire Blast STABs), but it will truly shine on defensive teams as part of a defensive core. The fact that it's a reliable Landorus counter is ALREADY a huge reason to run him, but countering Mega Gardevoir? That's enormous. What I really want to see with Magic Guard Moltres is perhaps a shift in the metagame from Blatantly Offensive to Moderately Balanced.

EDIT: I'd actually like to add on to this. If you're familiar with stall building, then you know that one of the oft touted cores is a F/W/G core (Fire/Water/Grass). These three types have great defensive synergy, and as such are worth looking into. One of the main things that plagues them, however, is Fire's…less than reliable ability to switch in and get the job done. This is entirely due to Stealth Rocks. Look at things like Arcanine, Victini (sort of…less applicable due to no reliable recovery), and Bulky Charizard X: Each of them are limited in what they can reliably switch in to because of Stealth Rocks chipping away 25% of their HP. What giving Moltres Magic Guard does is allow it to reliably come in and fulfill its job without having to worry about SR cutting it into KO range.

 

[Pyritie]

Honestly if you wanted to buff chesnaught why not give it drain punch instead?

Sure Chest loved those immunities but I adore the idea of it being able to have another ability as is. I mean hell, the fact youcould either be fighting. Thing that damages you as you hit it or a thing that absorbs shadow balls all day cab due some fun mind games (its like heatproof or levitate Bronzing in my mind really except its just playstyles rather than not weak to one thing or so).

Bluffing them is one thing, but that's just it -- a bluff, and without bulletproof you lack a switchin to those moves. You mentioned how you can bluff levitate with bronzong, which I think has the same issue. When your opponent doesn't know which ability it has, they won't use EQ if bronzong is out, but then you don't have a switchin to EQ whenever you want.

Plus, like ;lmlm said, most physical attackers that don't have an SE move aren't going to want to stay in on chesnaught anyway.

 

[hadonusee]

As many other stated Shadow Tag Dusknoir seems pretty similar to gothitelle. It's much more defensive due to its lack of a physical movepool, but with shadow tag, taunt and curse it can guarantee a kill on chansey. The low hp is a concern, since it doesn't get perish song and has to rely on curse, along with lack of recovery outside of a slow pain split. A hypothetical Curse+taunt+pain split+filler and 44 spe EVs to taunt chansey before it can toxic you back. Dusknoir only really threaten support mons, so most offensive teams would prefer gothitelle/magnezone for power.

Recover Politoed is better than ChestoRest politoed, at least. I mean like, rain teams will use Poli no matter how bad it is outside of drizzle, so recover just lessens the need for wish/healing wish support. Most politoeds get sacked late game for one last swift swim sweep anyways.

Magic Guard Moltres is much more friendly to teambuilding now that spin/defog support isn't mandatory. Fire/Flying isn't the best defensive typing but does give Moltres nice support moves like Defog(now useble with hazard immunity), Roost and Wil-o-Wisp. 125 attack is no slouch, but 90 speed is mediocre by ou standards. Moltres unfortunately does not have much in terms of coverage, leaving it walled by tyranitar and heatran much like talonflame.

With Rough Skin, Rocky Helm and Leech Seeds Rough Skin Chesnaught is now chipping off a maximum of 37.5% health every turn. However Spiky shield is basically a temporary unstackable rough skin where the user dosn't need to eat an attack for it to activate, making Rough skin somewhat redundent(especially since rocky helmet is also a thing). Lack of reliable recovery in weather is also an issue when your ability requires you to take damage. Bulletproof is much better as it offers complete immunity to gyro ball and all gengar sets lacking dazzling gleam.

In summary, Shadow Tag Dusknoir is great at taking out walls but can't do it much with its low hp; Recover Politoed is regular politoed, but better; Magic Guard Moltres is a decent support mon but it's offensive movepool sucks; Rough Skin Chesnaught is just regular chesnaught but now does an extra 12.5% damage to bird spam before dying and lose out on the nice immunities offered by Bulletproof.

 

[Salemance]

Truth be told I would love abusing the LO Molt set now (it was a fun set back in gen 5 RU ) with some minor bulk investment. The one two punch of hurricane and fire blast was a great utility tool but course it runs into what it would be doing with its last two slots, would it be given some slack of not running roost to recover its HP or what?

 

[Sun King]

Truth be told I would love abusing the LO Molt set now (it was a fun set back in gen 5 RU ) with some minor bulk investment. The one two punch of hurricane and fire blast was a great utility tool but course it runs into what it would be doing with its last two slots, would it be given some slack of not running roost to recover its HP or what?

Honestly, those slots could just be utility slots. Every team appreciates burn support. Substitute is also always a good filler, allowing you to dodge hits and paralysis.

 

[Salemance]

Honestly, those slots could just be utility slots. Every team appreciates burn support. Substitute is also always a good filler, allowing you to dodge hits and paralysis.

I realize but just talking offensive Molt now as we have discussed supportive molt quite a bit.

 

[Sun King]

I realize but just talking offensive Molt now as we have discussed supportive molt quite a bit.

Right, and I'm saying it could fulfill both roles in one set if you so chose to do so.

 

[Salemance]

Yah sorry just trying to generate some discussion.

 

[MicfiJasan]

Shadow Tag Dusknoir: I don't like this one because I'm biased and think Shadow Tag is a broken ability... In all seriousness though, Curse trapping is pretty nasty, especially when you can back it up with Taunt, WoW, and Pain Split. It's use is probably limited to a stallbreaker, but I think it would be a powerful one at that. It might be slightly worse than Perish Trapping in concept, but Dusknoir's movepool is just right for something like this. Don't have much more to say, I strongly dislike the ability in general.

Recover Politoed: The big question for me here is how many times do you plan to set up rain during a match. Even with 8 turns of rain you are spending a critical portion of it recovering Toed's health. It is still better on many accounts than Rest, but since most Rain teams tend to be offensive, I see the use of this being limited. The turns are just probably better spent killing things with Kabutops, Kingdra or Keldeo.

Magic Guard Moltres: Huge buff, even though I don't quite see the flavor. Switching in at full health every time is great, immunity to Life Orb recoil is great, Defogging with no personal concern for hazards is great. There is some competition from Charizard Y, but Moltres does get STAB Hurricane so it's not screwed by Politoed and it's Focus Blast is slightly stronger factoring in the Life Orb boost. Probably an Amoonguss vs. Mega Venusaur type of situation, although Moltres is probably a bit better in a defensive role, being able to Defog much more easily than anyone else in OU really. He can be EV'd to outspeed Bisharp or never be OHKOed by +2 Knock Off, and Flamethrower always OHKOes with no investment. So if he gets in, he will get a Defog off safely.

Rough Skin Chesnaught: Bulletproof is one of those weird abilities that I don't really know how to judge. That said, there is some novelty to taking off large chunks of the enemy's HP while being protected by Spiky Shield. He still suffers from a lot of what he suffered from already, and the extra chip damage probably doesn't make up for the new vulnerabilities to Sludge Bomb and the like. I guess Pokemon like Gengar who needed Sludge Wave to hit Chesnaught super-effectively can now change to be a bit more reckless with their coverage moves.

 

[SirSkit]

In all honesty, it's down to moltres and dusknoir IMO. Politoed with recover is lackluster. Sure, recover does let it past longer, but Politoed should be using those turns to get in a more dangerous sweepers rather than scald + recover shenanigans. As for purely bulky sets, it still has competition with tons of bulkier water types as well. As for chesnaught, Rough skin is nice and all, but it removes its niche immunities it gains from bulletproof. Rough Skin has some use, but it doesn't affect the meta enough to warrant the addition I think.

Shadow Tag Dusknoir and Magic Guard Moltres do change up the tier up a ton, however. Physical Attackers fearful of a burn and walls like Chansey and Skarmory will need to adapt with Shadow Tag dusknoir. Stall, VoltTurn, and HO teams gain an awesome member in Magic Guard Moltres. It would be cool if either won, since they can change up the tier so much.

 

[Sun King]

Some thoughts on the slate, given some of the current metagame trends...

Shadow Tag Dusknoir would end up much more viable, but still barely used because of stall's almost nonexistence at the moment. People would rather have more offensive utility with their wallbreakers.

Recover Politoed: seeing as rain teams are currently on the rise, any buff--no matter how small--would be greatly appreciated. This buff may have more to it than we originally thought--especially if the weather wars start to kick off again.

Magic Guard Moltres: keeping weather in mind could be a huge factor for this one. With rain teams, we get a 100% accurate STAB Hurricane, possible Choice Specs abuser with the ability to switch in with near impunity. With sand teams in mind, we have a lot of rock type attacks aimed at Moltres. Either way, Moltres still has a significantly better niche thanks to the ability to switch in and not die immediately.

Rough Skin Chesnaught: with rain teams rising, the stock in Physically Bulky Grass types also rises. Chesnaught will be a great answer to physically incline rain sweepers such as Kabutops, being able to strip them of a lot of health. This is another one we greatly underestimated.

EDIT: Chesnaught is great agains both rain AND sand teams, and any contact move on a sand team will be met with by Rough Skin+Rocky Helmet. Either of Chesnaught's abilities would be good, but Rough Skin is better for combatting weather teams.

Thoughts?

 

[Salemance]

Ixk it basically shows that Chest and Molt can be stupidly anti Meta in a way by counter two wonderful team archetypes. All kinds of fun

 

[Gerard]

Magic Guard Moltres: Huge buff, even though I don't quite see the flavor. Switching in at full health every time is great, immunity to Life Orb recoil is great, Defogging with no personal concern for hazards is great. There is some competition from Charizard Y, but Moltres does get STAB Hurricane so it's not screwed by Politoed and it's Focus Blast is slightly stronger factoring in the Life Orb boost. Probably an Amoonguss vs. Mega Venusaur type of situation, although Moltres is probably a bit better in a defensive role, being able to Defog much more easily than anyone else in OU really. He can be EV'd to outspeed Bisharp or never be OHKOed by +2 Knock Off, and Flamethrower always OHKOes with no investment. So if he gets in, he will get a Defog off safely.

Sadly, Moltres doesn't get Focus Blast, the ebst thing he can do to hurt Tar or Heatran is Hp Fighting or Ground

 

[Salemance]

Sadly, Moltres doesn't get Focus Blast, the ebst thing he can do to hurt Tar or Heatran is Hp Fighting or Ground

Which I never did understand. It gets Hurricane but not coverage while Zap getsbciverage but not hurricane. I mean I'd like both but still never did quite get it.

Looters just has the slight issue of picking that HP option on its offensive set to figure out how or what it wants to be walled. It could go ground/fighting since hurricane hits most I'd. Targets and grass but its not entirely perfect sadly.

 

[Sun King]

One thing I like a lot about Moltres is its access to Will o Wisp. Even if you run an offensive set, you can still use Wisp to nail the things that like to switch in on Moltres (Tyranitar, Dragonite--anything that resists Fire or Flying, really). In a metagame without Stealth Rocks, it would thrive because of its ability to punish things that switch in; although it does miss Pressure, Magic Guard Moltres is probably one of the best answers to Bisharp due to its ability to either KO with Fire STAB or burn with WoW.

 

[Master B8s]

Magic Guard Moltres could play as a good Stall/Wallbreaker. Magic Guard means it can't be toxic stalled, so they can't wear it down with status, while it can hold a life orb pretty much giving it a free 1.3x boost. 125 SpA isn't amazing, but its certainly above average. Its coverage moves do let it down in being countered by Tyranitar and Chansey, while being checked by common stall pokemon like Alomomola and Mew, where Mega Zard Y can get passed Tyranitar with Focus Blast, which Moltres lacks, and lets be honest, NO Special Attacker can get by Chansey. I guess if you don't want to use Zard Y for fire spam, this is the answer.

 

[Salemance]

Magic Guard Moltres could play as a good Stall/Wallbreaker. Magic Guard means it can't be toxic stalled, so they can't wear it down with status, while it can hold a life orb pretty much giving it a free 1.3x boost. 125 SpA isn't amazing, but its certainly above average. Its coverage moves do let it down in being countered by Tyranitar and Chansey, while being checked by common stall pokemon like Alomomola and Mew, where Mega Zard Y can get passed Tyranitar with Focus Blast, which Moltres lacks, and lets be honest, NO Special Attacker can get by Chansey. I guess if you don't want to use Zard Y for fire spam, this is the answer.

Idk ya could always do a trapper set with fire spin it you wished. That was always a bit funny to see chansey die.cause of that.

 

[Master B8s]

Idk ya could always do a trapper set with fire spin it you wished. That was always a bit funny to see chansey die.cause of that.

I guess but fire spin isn't perminant like shadow tag, so unless you can kill chansey in 2-5 turns I will get out and just be able to soft boil up when moltrea isn't it.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I guess but fire spin isn't perminant like shadow tag, so unless you can kill chansey in 2-5 turns I will get out and just be able to soft boil up when moltrea isn't it.

Turn 1: Toxic (15/16)
Turn 2: Fire Spin (12/16)
Turn 3: Taunt (7/15)
Turn 4: Flamethrower (Dead)

Granted, this leaves a lot up to chance like Fire Spin hitting and lasting more than 2 turns, them not having T wave, and them not switching out right after the Toxic, but it does work if a trapper is what you need. It works on more than just Chansey too.

Also, assuming they Seismic Toss all 4 turns, you'll die too, so you might want to pair it with a ghost type that can switch in on turn 4 and finish Chansey off. No matter what, you'll be pretty much dead, but that was kinda the point of Dusknoir, so I guess that's kinda mute.

 

[Master B8s]

Turn 1: Toxic (15/16)
Turn 2: Fire Spin (12/16)
Turn 3: Taunt (7/15)
Turn 4: Flamethrower (Dead)

Granted, this leaves a lot up to chance like Fire Spin hitting and lasting more than 2 turns, them not having T wave, and them not switching out right after the Toxic, but it does work if a trapper is what you need. It works on more than just Chansey too.

Also, assuming they Seismic Toss all 4 turns, you'll die too, so you might want to pair it with a ghost type that can switch in on turn 4 and finish Chansey off. No matter what, you'll be pretty much dead, but that was kinda the point of Dusknoir, so I guess that's kinda mute.

I mean that just seems needlessly complicated when i can just use Dusknoir who traps Chansey with Shadow Tag permanently and not have to rely on luck for fire spins 2-5 turns

 

[Salemance]

I mean that just seems needlessly complicated when i can just use Dusknoir who traps Chansey with Shadow Tag permanently and not have to rely on luck for fire spins 2-5 turns

Turn 1: Toxic (15/16)
Turn 2: Fire Spin (12/16)
Turn 3: Taunt (7/15)
Turn 4: Flamethrower (Dead)

Granted, this leaves a lot up to chance like Fire Spin hitting and lasting more than 2 turns, them not having T wave, and them not switching out right after the Toxic, but it does work if a trapper is what you need. It works on more than just Chansey too.

Also, assuming they Seismic Toss all 4 turns, you'll die too, so you might want to pair it with a ghost type that can switch in on turn 4 and finish Chansey off. No matter what, you'll be pretty much dead, but that was kinda the point of Dusknoir, so I guess that's kinda mute.

Only reason i recalled the trapping bit was cause i had used it with my Char Y but that was also with a focus blast so yah it was more of just wishful thinking on my part (that fire spin set was fun tho for some reason).