CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 9 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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More movepool discussion, huzzah! Again, our Movepool Leader, alexwolf, will guide us through this thread and present a finalized list of moves that users will be allowed to include in their movepool submissions. This time, we're dealing with non-attacking moves. When posting in this thread, be sure to focus your arguments toward alexwolf and his questions, as his is the primary authority in deciding the final list of allowed and disallowed moves.

Note: Several posts had to be deleted or edited in the attacking move discussion due to flavour-based reasoning. Please back up your arguments with reasoning that's relevant to the competitive side of Pokemon, since that's what most of these discussions are about other than art and such.

An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes. All other moves are considered non-attacking moves. It is important to distinguish attacking moves, which can be used specifically to deal damage, from non-attacking moves, which are used for some major effects but may happen to deal a small amount of damage. For some moves, such as Rapid Spin, this is clear-cut. However, the classification of moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch are dependent on the user's ability to damage the opponent with the move. Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is also Pokémon-dependent.

The Movepool Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered attacking or non-attacking, and which are considered competitive or non-competitive, for this project. He/she will post a list of competitive non-attacking moves in the first reply to this thread, and classify them into five or six groups:
  • Required - Moves are those that must be in every movepool submission.
  • Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokémon's final movepool
  • Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be disallowed from the Pokémon's final movepool
  • Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
  • Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are allowed, disallowed, or controversial
  • Need Discussion (optional) - Moves that the Movepool Leader may want to draw specific attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.
This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The community should make posts arguing for moves to be allowed or disallowed. The Movepool Leader will re-categorize the moves as the discussion progresses, until he/she deems the discussion over. The controversial moves will be put to a vote to determine whether they will be allowed or not.

Remember that, technically, nothing is set in stone until the thread is closed.

Rules for posting in this thread:
  • All posts should be presented with reasoning. NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated.
  • It is the responsibility of each user to check the OP before making any post in the thread, so as to stay relevant.
  • Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited, even with explanations. Do not copy the Move Leader's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one.
  • The Movepool Leader and Topic Leader are the sole arbiters for determining "general community consensus". The Movepool Leader may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if he/she feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as controversial.
  • Non-competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered competitive. In this case, you can post reasoned arguments in this thread.

This thread will be open for discussion as soon as alexwolf posts his opening remarks and questions for discussion.

--------------------

Concept:
Yilx said:
Name: Einherjar ~Acta Est Fabula~

Description: A Pokemon that dissuades your opponent from fainting it, or can even leave it's presence on the field felt even after it faints.

Justification: When a Pokemon faints, it's usually thought of as the battle having gotten down to a 5-6. However, we've yet to discover if a Pokemon can leave a lasting impression on the battle even after having fainted; be it through moves like Healing Wish and Destiny Bond, placing hazards that the opponent can't remove as their removal has been taken care of, or by leaving an opponent's key member weakened and/or taken out.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • How can a Pokemon leave a long-lasting effect on the rest of the battle with just it's moves?
  • How the hell is it different from simply ramming a sacrificial martyr into your opponent's team and hoping it punches holes in it?
  • Building on the previous question, is it possible to build this Pokemon as a defensive threat rather than a "Glass Cannon"?
  • Is it even possible for a Pokemon to leave a lasting effect on on the battle, even after it faints?
  • Could changing your opponent's way of thinking even be plausible? From, "I need to take CAP X out!", to, "Damn, if I take CAP X out, I'll be in trouble...!"

Type: Electric/Poison
Abilities: Storm Drain / (Insomnia/Vital Spirit)
Stats: 60 HP / 57 Atk / 119 Def / 131 SpA / 98 SpD / 100 Spe

Leadership Team:

Pwnemon- Topic Leader
ginganinja - Ability Leader
srk1214 - Typing Leader
alexwolf - Movepool Leader
Deck Knight - Stats Leader
 

alexwolf

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And finally, it's time we get to the interesting part, the non attacking moves discussion. So far, we have a pretty clear idea of what the checks and counters to the CAP are going to be, so we have a pretty good idea of what is going to be switching into the CAP. The question is what do we want to do in order to not be completely useless against the Pokemon that hard check or wall us. Do we want to provide offensive support with Stealth Rock or Healing Wish? Or do we want to help Gyarados set up easier, with moves such as Defog or Rapid Spin? What kind of support does Mega Gyarados and its usual teammates like? And what kind of support moves can we give to the CAP while still creating scenarios where the opponent wants to KO the CAP but then has to give a set up chance to Mega Gyarados, aka a lose / lose situation, or even making those scenarios more likely?

To begin with, i want us to focus on the most important support moves, namely Defog, Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, Healing Wish, and healing moves. Those are the most impact-full support moves the CAP may get, so i want to make sure they have our full attention. Then, we can address more minor ones, such as Taunt, Encore, Memento,Whirlpool etc. You may also discuss some boosting moves but they are most likely going to be disallowed, so your argument will have to be extraordinarily good to convince me to allow even one useful set up move. Nasty Plot has been disallowed because we already disallowed Acid Spray, and Nasty Plot is just a better version of it. Quiver Dance and Shel Smash don't need any explanation i think.

Remember, respect our checks and counters list, the goal we have established in the concept assessment stage, and not to break the build triangle with any suggestion.

Pending

None

Need Discussion

None

Required

Toxic
Sleep Talk
Rest
Substitute
Protect
Confide
Attract
Swagger
Double Team

Allowed

Taunt
Thunder Wave
Safeguard
Encore
Clear Smog
Haze
Rain Dance / Sunny Day / Hail / Sandstorm
Attack boosting moves

Disallowed

Nasty Plot
Quiver Dance
Shell Smash
Tail Glow
Baton Pass
Parting Shot
Recover (and its clones, including Moonlight and friends)
Pain Split
Healing Wish
Memento
Toxic Spikes
Spikes
Sticky Web
Will-O-Wisp
Defense, Special Defense, and Special Attack boosting moves (including Reflect and Light Screen)
Destiny Bond
Roar / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail
Perish Song
Tailwind
Trick Room
Whirlpool / Infestation

Controversial

Defog
Rapid Spin
Stealth Rock
 
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ginganinja

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Hey so can we also ban like, Parting Shot / Tail Glow etc since these moves are pretty strong and there is no need for this CAP to get them.
Personally, I would also hit Calm Mind, especially if there are people out there pushing for Recover and so on, because this CAP is easily bulky enough to make use of the move.

Stealth Rock / Defog / Rapid Spin I am all good with. I don't really like recovery moves on this CAP because not only shouldn't it really need them, its typically "selfish". Pain Split in particular just provides an excuse to cockblock Chansey and I don't really see that as a good idea.
 
I believe that Recover and such clones should be allowed as they help us be more challenging to take down by anyone not on our checks and counters list. And to quell any concerns...



252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Electabuzz: 420-496 (129.6 - 153%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Electabuzz: 304-364 (93.8 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Electabuzz: 213-252 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Electabuzz: 660-785 (203.7 - 242.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Even with max bulk in the respective defenses with a boosting nature and recovery item, the pokemon we want to lose to still beat us with recover, as even Greninja (the weakest of the listed checks) still does more damage with a min damage role to force us into a losing stall battle (given that CAP would be losing chips of HP each turn, and that Extrasensory has an ample amount of PP).
Thus the only thing that Recover helps us do is stay alive throughout the battle until the lose-lose situation for our opponent presents itself like we aim to with this CAP.

Disallow Healing Wish. Though this move may seem pro-concept as it would heal Gyarados with the CAP's demise, it actually encourages the opponent to kill the CAP. As we are trying to create a situation where if they leave the CAP alive, they lose precious HP, or if they kill the CAP, Gyarados gets to set up and sweep; adding the factor of "if I don't kill the CAP, I'm going to be swept regardless" kind of ruins our grand master plan and makes killing CAP the clearly better option. It even introduces the possibility of our opponent predicting a low HP CAP to go for the healing wish to get a free switch to Gyarados, and him switching out and preventing Gyarados from sweeping, and thus we've failed to create the situation we desire.
 
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I feel that defog should be allowed. Defog removes entry hazards from both sides of the field. This makes Mega-Gyarados be able to survive more and the CAPs counters also to survive more making it ideal for both sides of the field.


Disallow Healing Wish. Healing wish is a move that most bulky Pokemon use in their sets (if they learn it of course).
60/119/98 Defenses is pretty bulky, so this may be used in many sets if it is allowed, and the opponents will know that this CAP has the power to faint itself and restore another teammate, thus making them want to KO it, before it KOs itself so that no teammate will be able to get healed. This is the opposite of the concept, as we want the opponent not want to KO the Cap, not the other way around.
 

ginganinja

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Thus the only thing that Recover helps us do is stay alive throughout the battle until the lose-lose situation for our opponent presents itself like we aim to with this CAP.
Technically the issue is a little bigger than this. Recover allows you to outlast your checks and counters because every time Garchomp comes in, its likely switching into a resisted coverage move or something. Something like Garchomp, something like Landorus can switch in, they can shrug off (lets say), Psychic from this CAP, and then this CAP switches back out and repeats. Now if this thing has the defensive stats of a wet paper bag, then this wouldn't be an issue, but currently its got an immunity to one of the safest types to spam, as well as a very nice defensive typing and bulk. This CAP is roughly "Rotom-W", in terms of defensive stats, which we all know is fairly bulky, and the idea of giving this CAP a no drawbacks free 'heal 50% move', just means this CAP can come in again and again on a wider array of things, and recover off any damage. It doesn't need to worry about residual damage affecting its changes of sweeping, because its got recover, and it (currently), doesn't have the 4MMS issue that would discourage it from running the move either.
 
I'm with ginganinja on the recovery moves; there's no real NEED for them. As for Healing Wish, I think it's perfectly on concept--regardless of whether it invites the opponent to KO CAP or not. We wanted to create something that dissuades getting KO'd--or--in the event that it IS KO'd, it leaves a lasting impression. Healing Wish allows us to leave an extremely lasting impression after death: Full Restore for our DD Sweeper/teammate of choice. While yes, it does invite a KO, most of the things that KO us are set up on by Gyarados; it leaves the opponent with a painful quandary: Do I KO CAP and prevent the Healing Wish, or do I switch out and avoid being setup bait. I am in favor of Healing Wish.

As for other moves, as was brought up in the attacking moves thread, I think we should allow Whirlpool or some sort of trapping move so that we can ensure favorable switch ins for whichever DD sweeper we pair CAP with.
 
I think we should talk about disallowing Agility, Calm Mind and Work Up. After a turn of set up with any of these moves, CAP19 suddenly becomes considerably more dangerous to a lot of things. I also agree with ;lmlm that we need a trapping move of some description.
 
Recover is too consistent a recovery move to allow. Recover makes it insanely easy for CAP to switch in and out regularly, making it an insanely good pivot instead of a Pokemon that the opponent doesn't really want to kill.

Pain Split, on the other hand, does too much damage to be allowed. We gave it horrible health backed by solid defensive stats, meaning our Pain Split could potentially wreck slower counters trying to get a switch-in. Pain Split + STAB move will kill a good number of Pokemon while leaving us at full health.

Healing Wish shouldn't be allowed.
It's already been noted back in Part 2 that this move is completely anti-concept, so I don't even know why this is up for discussion.

Stealth Rocks seems a bit dangerous. Even though a ton of our counters resist rocks, CAP already hits hard enough that the Rock damage can push a match over the edge.

Defog and Rapid Spin seem fine to allow. I don't have a problem with CAP having either of these, as it gives it another niche on his team of choice.

As for other moves suggested, I'm for Disallowing Agility, Parting Shot, Tail Glow and Calm Mind. Work Out doesn't seem too oppressive to me, so I'm not sure it's necessary to disallow that, but it is something to think about.

Whirlpool seems like a good move to give it. Given how many Gyarados counters CAP can't even touch, it's probably best to give CAP a way to move into somebody else.
 
I feel Stealth Rock should be disallowed. Here are a few calcs with some of the not weak to electric counters:

252+ SpA CAP 19 Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 186-220 (65.9 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

So after one Storm Drain Boost, its a guaranteed OHKO on weavile.

252+ SpA CAP 19 Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 352-416 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So the CAP can OHKO things which it would usually 2HKO after an SR. Disallow it.

Disallow Agility and Calm Mind. After a Storm Drain and Calm Mind boost, the CAP will literally OHKO the meta and it supports the CAP's tanking potential too.Disallow it. Agility makes the CAP faster than most Pokemon including some of its counters, so without Choice Scarf he can outspeed and KO them like that. Disallow please.

Allow Work Up. Work Up boosts Special Attack and attack. It doesnt give any tanking potential, so if the opponent has decent attack and priority, he can attack the CaP to lower its HP down when hes setting up and use a priority or Normal Attack if the opponent is faster to KO it.

Disallow Pain Split. The CAP can cripple many Pokemon and heal itself in the process when its Hp is low. provides ideal coverage against counters. Disallow.
 
I'd like to bring up magnet rise and Eerie impulse. If we have one, we should disallow the other. With magnet rise, we get rid of the ground weakness, leaving us weak to only psychic. With eerie impulse, we can cause some havoc with special, non manectric/ground type special attackers, and we want the opponent to make the KO decision, not just switching. With both of these, it would make the CAP pretty overpowered, since a debuff and an immunity would be scary. With Magnet rise, and bolt-beam coverage, it will be hard to not want to use it. And with it's bulk, only fast ground types and psychic types can deal with it. I think there maybe needing some more discussion on magnet rise, but disallow Eerie impulse.
 
I feel Stealth Rock should be disallowed. Here are a few calcs with some of the not weak to electric counters:

252+ SpA CAP 19 Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 186-220 (65.9 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

So after one Storm Drain Boost, its a guaranteed OHKO on weavile.

252+ SpA CAP 19 Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 352-416 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So the CAP can OHKO things which it would usually 2HKO after an SR. Disallow it.
This isn't imo as relevant because most good OU Teams run SR anyways - thus, we should consider SR in most calcs we make, so giving CAP19 SR doesn't impact this relationship
 
I want to ask before I get into my thoughts into potential moves if alexwolf or a CAP mod edit the final list of attacking moves into the OP or alexwolf's first post? It would help to have it there because it's relevant to the discussion.

Now for some brief thoughts on moves.

I support Rapid Spin/Defog because all three Dragon Dance users are weak to Stealth Rock at some point. Even Mega Gyarados appreciates hazard removal because it is vulnerable to Spikes. I'd prefer Rapid Spin since Defog removes our hazards, and we may need Stealth Rock to stay up in a pinch to get some KOs. It's not too important, though; most of the time, we can set Stealth Rock back up again (which is mainly why I'd like to allow Stealth Rock) There isn't any obvious evidence that they are detrimental to us, so there isn't a reason to disallow them.

No recovery please. If CAP 19 is outlasting its counters, then it isn't doing its job. This goes for both 50% recovery moves and Pain Split.

Disallow Spikes and Toxic Spikes. These moves are on a different level than Stealth Rock. SR isn't too detrimental to most of our counters, as they are mainly Ground-types, but Spikes and Toxic Spikes wear them down way too much. There is powerful neutral coverage available, and if our counters are losing 25% or getting badly poisoned while trying to switch into the CAP along with taking a neutral attack, then it makes their job of actually countering the CAP nearly impossible.

Disallow Parting Shot and Baton Pass because they're basically U-turn and Volt Switch minus the damage.

Disallow all boosting moves. The reasoning that can be applied to Nasty Plot and Quiver Dance can be applied to things like Work Up and Calm Mind, albeit on a smaller scale. Our counters won't appreciate taking +1 neutral attacks. Plus, they're redundant against the things we're supposed to be threatening because we built the stats to be able to beat them. There aren't any boosting moves that accomplish anything for us and they introduce too many potential risks.

Whirlpool seems iffy. On one hand, it's not like we're going to try and trap something that beats Gyarados/Dragonite/Charizard, and when we trap something that is supposed to beat the CAP but not our paired sweeper, then we're in a good position. On the other hand, essentially forcing the opponent to kill us sounds a bit lame and anti-concept, but it's not as blatantly apparent with boosting or recovery. Whirlpool would probably be mostly irrelevant anyways, because this CAP would have better things to do than to try and trap things.
 
I support Defog/Rapid Spin/Stealth Rock
Defog and Rapid Spin are just good to have in general, especially considering that Gyara is our main partner. It also doesn't give CAP 19 itself any sort of significant advantage. Stealth Rock should be allowed because of the possibility of Defog, and as other people have already said, most good OU teams already have Rocks anyway.

No healing or boosting moves
Healing allows CAP 19 to outlast counters, no what we want. As for boosting, we have 131 base SpA, and that is already extremely high and any boosting would just be too over the top.
 
In my eyes, the goal of CAP19 is to weaken the opponents to prepare so that gyarados can set up and sweep.
So I don't think recovering of stat-boosting moves are helpful fulfill that goal.

Here are some suggestions that I certainly think need discussion:
- Haze/Clear smog: This makes sure no opponent can set up before gyarados does.
- Taunt: So as above + could prevent stealth rock/substitute
- T-wave/Will-O-Wisp: I don't think this would be necessary for CAP19 to work, but I think it should certainly be open for discussion
- Sticky web: After CAP19 died and gyarados could set up one dragon dance, this could prevent a switch from the opponent into a scarved sweeper that could kill gyarados.
 
I say a big fat NO to Healing Wish and all other sacrificial moves because they all anti-concept in the fact that the opponent has zero influence on CAP's KO.

Here are my arguments for allowing Taunt;
-it stops Ferrothorn setting up rocks, spikes and seeds, while CAP would barely be able to damage it outside HP Fire.
-it would prevent phasers from phasing Gyarados out until it at the very least has a boost under its belt. now we've said that Gyarados can set up on Heatran without Roar, but there is no guarantee behind the lack of Roar. It would also prevent Heatran from using Stealth Rock and Will-o-Wisp.
-it severely hinders Sub Toxic Gliscors, and again, we decided that a Gliscor without Toxic would be suitable for Gyarados to set up on.
-it prevents the opponent's pokemon from setting up, and Gyarados simply cannot set up on pokemon that have already set up themselves.
 
I say a big fat NO to Healing Wish and all other sacrificial moves because they all anti-concept in the fact that the opponent has zero influence on CAP's KO.

Here are my arguments for allowing Taunt;
-it stops Ferrothorn setting up rocks, spikes and seeds, while CAP would barely be able to damage it outside HP Fire.
-it would prevent phasers from phasing Gyarados out until it at the very least has a boost under its belt. now we've said that Gyarados can set up on Heatran without Roar, but there is no guarantee behind the lack of Roar. It would also prevent Heatran from using Stealth Rock and Will-o-Wisp.
-it severely hinders Sub Toxic Gliscors, and again, we decided that a Gliscor without Toxic would be suitable for Gyarados to set up on.
-it prevents the opponent's pokemon from setting up, and Gyarados simply cannot set up on pokemon that have already set up themselves.
I completely agree with everything said here, and would like to point out Torment is an option versus banded and specced foes
 
I don't feel strongly for or against many of these support moves. I feel this mon's niche ought to mainly be the special attacking ying to DD Mega Gyarados, Mega Charizard X and Dragonite's yang, but I do have a few thoughts.

No recovery or competitive boosting moves. These are just anti concept and help CAP beat set up fodder for the Dancers.

Allow Defog/Rapid Spin.SR happers its buddy's sweeping ability. However, let it be known, removing hazards will be a bad niche for CAP due to its inability to switch into Ground types, the most common SR users. Which brings me to next move.

And most important!

Gets on soap box*

Allow Taunt. Taunt is the most, MOST pro concept move for CAP. CAP naturally will draw Ground type switch ins, as well as Special sponges like Chansey and Tyraniyar, who will bring with them Stealth Rock, Toxic, TW, and Phazing moves, all of which are the bane of our DD friends. Worse still, without Taunt, CAP19 is set up fodder for CM/SD Landorus and SD Garchomp, all of whom will obliterate our core.

Now, nailing any of these guys with Taunt on the switchin makes them forced to attack, so they can either OHKO CAP with a Ground move or Seismic Toss or whatever, but become set up fodder for DD user, thus making the opponent reconsider killing CAP.

Taunt is 100% the most crucial support move for CAP19's original concept.
 
OK some more from me:

Disallow Spikes, but allow Toxic Spikes. With this, Disallow Rapid Spin, but Allow Defog. A bit of a long part here. Spikes, IMO, is bad for it. leave that to another hazard user, but toxic spikes gives our opponent a little drop turn by turn. This could be useful against stuff like alomomola and slowbro on the switch, as it wears them down. But we want this to be a double edged sword. Defog will clear both sides of entry hazards, which the CAP wants to do to switch normal gyarados in safely, without losing 25% of it's HP, but will clear away it's own hazards too.

Disallow healing moves. Stuff like recover is a no. Including wish.

Allow phazing moves like roar. This can be useful in stopping set up threats for the opponent.

Tailwind: Needs a bit of discussion. Tailwind could be breaking, but can be useful. Set it up and we can outspeed stuff like landorus-t and chomp, and let gyarados set up against faster threats. However, it is a boosting move, and can be counter intuitive. Magnet rise would fall under this category. It gives the CAP ground immunity, so could be breaking with that.

Trappping moves are useful to let the CAP set up on stuff like landorus and friends. However, combine it with a locking move like encore, and it would be pretty bad, or even a very nasty move like memento or even healing wish. Since CAP is quite fast, it will be very nasty to deal with. A memento trap could be pretty nasty, but, would require a sash to pull off. Also, unfortunately, the lack of illegal egg move combinations makes it harder to let all of these in. You could say whirlpool is an event move, and memento/encore is an egg move. Just looking at ways that can justify having them all, but limiting the options.

Also, I'd also nominate Tickle and screech to be discussed. It fits the idea of KO or not to KO. When used, it has no real use to CAP, due to being a special attacker. However, if CAP is KOed, then gyarados can come in, and the -1 def is pretty nasty when gyarados enters, as it can obtain a moxie boost from a weakened opponent, or just sets up on a -1 att physical attacker.

I'd also say Allow Venom Drench. In conjunction with toxic spikes, we can severely cripple an opponent with this. However, it is a tad gimmiky, and pokemon like amoonguss, ferrothorn and mega venusaur will be alright (Basically all poison or steel types). Yet, if used correctly, it can be pretty amazing.
 
Ok my view on things:
Allow Rapid Spin

Rapid spin allows you to remove the hazards set that can do persistent damage to the sweepers CAP is supposed to aid. In the Case of Gyarados, switching into rocks without mega is going to hurt a lot, and with no way of recovery, that damage is permanent and could hinder its sweeping potential. Also the lack of Ghost-types (only Gengar and Doublade are common) in OU now makes Rapid Spin a lot more viable than it was at other points of XY OU's history.

Defog is a little trickier because of Bisharp. Giving it a free +2 from defiant just to drop its evasion is really not great, especially since it has the potential to OHKO your Mega-Gyara with Low Kick, not run often but usually used for T-tar. Not saying disallow but just mentioning that it could prove troublesome to CAP's goal

+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 516-608 (155.8 - 183.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Something else to mention is Encore. In the threats discussion, it mentions that CAP should be forced out by support moves from Ferro, Chansey and phazing Ground-types. If CAP can encore said support move, it wont be forced out but instead the opponent will be forced out which isn't what is wanted so Disallow Encore
 
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nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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Allow Healing Wish and Memento Both moves are quite pro-concept (sacrificing CAP 19 for gain), both are relevant, and both are reasonably powerful.

Allow Stealth Rock Tons of good rockers already, and it's not really harmful to the concept. Don't see why not.

Allow Toxic Spikes Let's be real tspikes sucks. No harm in letting CAP 19 have it as a niche option.

Allow Rapid Spin Sure, CAP 19 has to give up an already precious movepool slot for it.

Allow Taunt Pro-concept, useful move, hits all the checkboxes we want.

Disallow Defog Defog, is too good IMO as CAP 19 doesn't have the fatal flaw most defogers have - namely, it isn't rocks weak. Allowing it to have the garuntee that defog brings with it might push it a bit over the edge in that department. Plus, Gyarados actively desires and wants hazards, and defog removing hazards from our side is kind of a bad thing.

Disallow Spikes / Sticky Web These hazards are both really, really good, and I think CAP 19 is already powerful enough. It doesn't need access to these moves.

Disallow Recover Supporting greninja ginganinja on this one. His thoughts more or less mirror my own.

Disallow Pain Split See: Recover.

Disallow Baton Pass / Parting Shot You all already know how I feel about U-turn moves. Also parting shot is bonkers good, the kind of bonkers good a already great pokemon like CAP 19 doesn't need.

Disallow all Setup Moves CAP 19 is not a sweeper. Plus, with its typing and ability, it'd be way too good as a sweeper. So yeah, barn all.

Disallow all Field Moves With a Limited Duration (Such as Tailwind, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, etc) As these moves all have a limited duration, they encourage our opponent to stall out CAP 19 for time. As a result, they're rather anti-concept (namely, they encourage not killing CAP 19, even if it is for only a few turns), and as a result, should be disallowed.
 
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alexwolf

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Seeing as how everyone agreed on this (and i wanted to disallow most of those moves from the beginning tbh, but i forgot about them), Parting Shot, Tail Glow, Baton Pass, and any kind of recovery moves are disallowed, including Pain Split. That's all.
 
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Ignus

Copying deli meat to hard drive
Time to make a post about 'limiting choices.' As far as I'm concerned, everything we discuss in this stage should be specifically about one of the following two topics:
  • Maintaining presence after death
This has been defined and redefined over and over during the course of the project. I'm not going to go in to detail over it because I think by now (if you've been keeping up with the project) what kind of moves will do this.
  • Making our opponent choose between KOing CAP and some other "desirable (for us)" action
So what the hell do I mean by this?
I'm talking about using our concept's true intention: We are discouraging the opponent from KOing CAP. Not forcing them to. Removing the opponent's ability to choose between killing and leaving CAP alive is literally the exact opposite of what the project entails. Without the element of choice, we might as well just make a pokemon that just traps things that can kill our sweeper. This is 'choice'. We have to trap our opponent between a rock and a hard place; not throw them straight in to the rock.
With that in mind, because the following moves remove the element of choice, they should not be allowed:
Healing Wish
CAP 19 has nothing to do with sacrificing yourself for a gain. Does this help our sweeper? Yes. Does it leave a lasting effect on the battlefield? Yes. Does it persuade our opponent to not faint CAP? Not even slightly. Dissuading a KO is arguably the most important part of this concept; Anything that forces us to kill ourselves is the exact opposite of what we want. This is in the exact same vein as Explosion. I honestly can't see why this move is getting so much support.
Whirlpool and other trapping moves
This has the same problem as healing wish, although to a lesser extent. We aren't trying to force a KO on CAP. Trapping moves limit the opponent's options to either setting up on CAP (Like Substitute, which makes it hard for Gyarados to sweep, or Boosting moves, Which make it hard for Gyarados to sweep, or using utility like defog, which makes it harder for Gyarados to sweep, or...) or just KOing CAP. Trapping moves will only make CAP's life harder.

Taunt, however, I feel is a different story. While it does limit our opponents choices, it limits it them a choice that will be desirable for us, almost 100% of the time. Your opponent switching is almost always a good thing for your team, whereas being setup on cannot.


So. Healing Wish is bad because it removes choice. Whirlpool is bad because it removes useful choice.

That's all I got for now.
 
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This has been said a few times already throughout this project, but remember that we're not making a "Perfect Mate". Mega Gyarados is already an A+ rank threat, Mega Charizard X is S rank (yeah I know, CAP 19 isn't exactly a great partner anyway due to the shared Ground weakness), and even Dragonite is A rank. So while I don't think that a lot of the moves must be disallowed, I'm not terribly excited about giving them so much priority, either. I'm referring specifically to Defog, Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock when I say this. I just don't see why they're a big deal, and they're generically powerful enough that perhaps they should be disallowed, but I don't care much either way. Spikes and Sticky Web are similar except they're really generically powerful in my eyes and I believe that they should be disallowed. I also agree with Ignus that Memento and Healing Wish run counter to what we're going for at this point. It's not like Gyarados and Dragonite care much about Memento support, anyway.

I think that Taunt and similar moves are going to be the big tools that make the tactic we're trying to encourage work. Hell, even Safeguard might work out. Gyarados and especially Dragonite hate status more than pretty much anything, and while they often use countermeasures like Taunt, Substitute and Lum Berry (in Dragonite's case), it would be nice to take some of that load off while simultaneously emphasizing that "between a rock and a hard place" situation. I also think that weather moves might be good for playing a similar theme. They don't really help the status issue, but they do invoke a similar situation. I'm just not sure that they're notable enough to care about (maybe Rain Dance is...).

Don't really care about Toxic Spikes and Encore.
 

Bughouse

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Allow Rapid Spin Sure, CAP 19 has to give up an already precious movepool slot for it.

Disallow Defog Defog, is too good IMO as CAP 19 doesn't have the fatal flaw most defogers have - namely, it isn't rocks weak. Allowing it to have the garuntee that defog brings with it might push it a bit over the edge in that department. Plus, Gyarados actively desires and wants hazards, and defog removing hazards from our side is kind of a bad thing.
Wtf are you talking about. Rapid Spin is better than Defog in the post-Aegislash meta as there just aren't that many Ghosts around anymore. The only relevant Ghost in OU anymore is Gengar, with the rare Sableye thrown in. And it's not like Gengar wants to switch in on CAP 19 that much anyway.

If Defog is "too good," Rapid Spin is also too good.
 
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