Other Stall

[Sun King]

This post is going to be an expansion on what I said earlier about Usage Statistics in team building. I'd edit it in to my other post, but it's going to end up being long, and I'm going to be constantly editing it over the next few days because of being busy. Here's the usage statistics for August

Anyways…

Looking at the top 10 alone, you can see that 4/10 are afraid of repeatedly switching in to Scalds (Landorus-T, Heatran, Azumarill, and Scizor). That immediately tells me that the stock in physically bulky Water-types is pretty high right now, so my first team slot would probably go to something like Slowbro, Alomomola, Quagsire, Suicune, or Mega Blastoise. Whichever bulky water you pick is going to be pretty huge, because as Ajwf said below, they all do different things.

EDIT: Mkay, I'm removing the whole team building idea. I'd rather just highlight how usage stats are a critical aspect of the team building process.

 

[Ajwf]

Not gonna lie, that seems like a method filled with holes. Just looking for "pokemon with scald", you come across about four pokemon that fill different roles (slowbro for MMedi, Quag as a Zard stop, Cune as a wincon, Blastoise as a tank with no specific countering). To be honest, the simplistic idea of "get scald to burn" just left you open to Azumarill, one pokemon you mentioned feared Scald, as well as Scizor, who wrecks that core.

 

[Force Majeure]

I agree that Scald is really good, but I have problems with its reliability. Slowbro, Suicune, and M-Blastoise have pretty good SpA, but Alo and Quag (Alo particularly) have pretty awful SpA, so Scald on Alo may as well be a 30% accurate WoW that also does 8% damage.

In terms of team composition, I've been toying around with a water Regenerator phys Def core with Alo and Slowbro. It does stack a couple of weaknesses, but using both allows me to trade Scald on Alo for Knock Off. Knock Off is great for special switch ins, and Regenerator allows Alo to pivot out after removing an item, granting it utility vs. Special attackers.

Sylveon would synergize very well with Alo+Bro; I may have to try it, with something like Heatran+(Ground Type/electric resist) to cover the stacked Grass and Electric weakness. Syl also has some pretty bitchin' attacking prowess, which is becoming more necessary on stall by the day, it seems.

In case y'all haven't noticed, I'm pretty crazy about M-Luvdisc right now. It's somewhat like a physical version of Chansey Blissey, plus better typing and sans cleric moves.

I'd like to mention the utility of M-Alakazam on stall teams (, he said, without a hint of irony). M-Zam is IMO the best "Panic Button"/revenge killer for stall teams. Its Trace ability allows it to trash Sand Offense (esp Sand Rush Excadrill), and it is so naturally fast that only fast Scarfers outspeed it. Conveniently, these same scarfers can generally be walled very, very easily by other team members, forcing switches, racking up hazard damage usw.

I'll post later with the results of my tests with something like this combination of pokes.

Anyone want to give me an effective stall team?

I'd try building a few yourself; trial and (in my case, lots of) error is really the best way to build a stall team. Use your instincts; look for defensive mons with good movepools, typings, and abilities, then try to cover weaknesses, ACCOUNT FOR COMMON THREATS (the above post is pretty good for that). Hazards, status, and walling are the name of the game, with a few heavy attacks and a panic button thrown in delicately selected for the purpose.

 

[Sun King]

Not gonna lie, that seems like a method filled with holes. Just looking for "pokemon with scald", you come across about four pokemon that fill different roles (slowbro for MMedi, Quag as a Zard stop, Cune as a wincon, Blastoise as a tank with no specific countering). To be honest, the simplistic idea of "get scald to burn" just left you open to Azumarill, one pokemon you mentioned feared Scald, as well as Scizor, who wrecks that core.

I'm super busy, so I'm on my mobile. I didn't have time to finish the team. It's literally just a start. I'm aware I don't have a hard counter to azu. I have a scald user to deter it from switching in. I'll--as I've said--finish up the team as soon as I get the time.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

1. 
   WCAR teambuilding guide for stall teams
   
   Make sure you have all the following mons covered, and try not to overlap roles so you can maximize your defensive coverage:
   
   Taunt + WoW Tflame (Slowbro, Gliscor, Alomonola, Heatran with 2 attacks, Zapdos, Rotom-H)
   Mew (Gliscor, Zard Y, Zard X, Heatran, Regen spam (switching back and forth between two regen mons like slowbro + amoong), talonflame)
   Gengar (Gliscor if no hex, Heatran if no LO focus blast, AV entei, spdef Mandibuzz)
   Landorus (Zard Y, Spdef Gliscor, spdef dnite, mantine, cresselia, spdef mandibuzz, mew if no calm mind, sylveon if no CM or sludge wave)
   Kyurem-b (jirachi, mega scizor, ferro, bronzong, chansey if you're desperate, spdef clef if no iron head, physically defensive sylveon if no iron head)
   Charizard X (Alomonola, Slowbro, Rhyperior, Quagsire, Hippo, Lando-t)
   Magic Guard CM Clefable (Taunt Heatran, spdef taunt gliscor, mew, spdef talonflame, offensive mega venusaur can hope for a crit, clear smog amoongus PP stalls it)
   Mega Heracross (Lando-t with toxic or u-turn to a faster mon that koes, Gliscor with acrobatics/toxic, unaware max def clefable can work but hax is not on your side, doublade)
   Mega Gardevoir (Jirachi, Bronzong, Doublade, Mega Scizor, Gengar checks)
   Mega Medicham (slowbro, mew, cresselia, doublade, max def clefable)
   SD Garchomp (Quagsire, ice beam slowbro, cresselia, tangrowth can tank a hit and then you can switch to a steel vs outrage, physically defensive unaware clefable)
   Tail Glow rain dance manaphy (CM slowbro/slowking, cm unaware clef, spdef ferro with power whip, AV Raikou)
   CM Manaphy/CM Suicune (clear smog amoongus, gastrodon, tentacruel with haze, spdef mega venu with rest PP stalls them out, CM Unaware Clefable)
   Mega Gyara with sub/taunt (Slowbro with grass knot, physically defensive mega venu, ferro, tangrowth)
   Hawlucha (Zapdos, Doublade, Cresselia, Slowbro somewhat)
   MAKE SURE YOU HAVE WAYS OF BEATING MAGNEZONE + (INSERT WALLBREAKER THAT LOSES TO SKARM/FERRO HERE): Shed Shell skarm works, mega aero is great for checking bird spam, doublade works against pinsir as well
   
   Most of all the metagame can be checked if you have the threats above covered (even if they're not on the list). For example, DDnite is covered by the same things as SD Garchomp, Mega Alakazam is somewhat covered by the things that check Mega Gardevoir, etc
   
   Ways to beat other stall teams:
   Spikestacking. Force them to use precious defog PP and you will win by hazard pressure eventually
   PP stalling (stuff like rest mega venu, rest tentacruel, pressure mons like zapdos)
   5 mons + a wallbreaker works, like TG + RD Mana or Mega Hera
   Win cons such as Crocune CM MG Clef
   Taunt spam preferably from faster mons, for ex. running 88 speed EVs on skarm to taunt min speed MVENU and mandibuzz
   Additionally you can be a loser and run Gothitelle but that offers no defensive synergy at all
   
   LONGER BATTLES = MORE HAX FOR YOU (more crits). MAKE SURE YOU DON'T PUT YOURSELF AT RISK BY LOSING TO A CRIT

 

[Sun King]

Not bad, but I would add BD Azu to that list. The last thing you need is to be swept in 2 turns.

 

[kirant]

Not bad, but I would add BD Azu to that list. The last thing you need is to be swept in 2 turns.

What ARE the major BD Azumarill counters? The common answers are Venusaur and Amoonguss. Quagsire works as long as it is a BD Azumarill. Zapdos might be able to if SR are clear. Ferrothorn is conditional on it not knowing Superpower. Roserade is way off the board and would be really niche for this purpose...but it would solve Azumarill and recover some lost HP via Giga Drain.

 

[Jukain]

venu, amoong, ferro, unaware clef, quag would be those things

o and make sure you have a way of beating mag PLUS diggersby PLUS pinsir, i cannot emphasize enough that skarm does not cut it because it will be too worn out to handle both at the same time and just overwhelmed even with shell.

dont forget gliscor in your list either

 

[alexwolf]

Taunt + WoW Tflame (Slowbro, Gliscor, Alomonola, Heatran with 2 attacks, Zapdos, Rotom-H)

Minor nitpick, but Mola loses 1 on 1 to Taunt Talonflame.

 

[trc]

Minor nitpick, but Mola loses 1 on 1 to Taunt Talonflame.

what it can do is use magic coat which forces a 50/50 in alomomola's favour in order to bounce back taunt, but the 50/50 between taunt or bulk up for tflame and magic coat or toxic for alomomola is annoying but alomomola has a much better chance of winning it especially since magic coat is so uncommon.

 

[nmitchell890]

I'm quite enjoying using RestTalk Gyarados at the moment. Looking at that list, it beats; Taunt + Will-o-Wisp Talonflame (with Stealth Rock), Landorus, Mega Charizard X (without Outrage), Mega Medicham (without Stealth Rock), Mega Gyarados 50% of the time (Dragon Tail beats Taunt, Roar beats Substitute). It also beats threats like Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo and packs Intimidate to pivot effectively. For reference, I'm using 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 SDef Careful and Dragon Tail over Roar.

EDIT: Calcs
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Gyarados: 126-149 (32 - 37.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Gyarados: 188-222 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 228-270 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Gyarados: 129-153 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Gyarados: 193-228 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gyarados Dragon Tail vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 96-114 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Gyarados: 147-174 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Medicham: 118-141 (45.2 - 54%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Gyarados in Sun: 129-153 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Gyarados: 125-148 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 126-150 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Gyarados: 110-130 (27.9 - 33%) -- 94.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Gyarados: 110-130 (27.9 - 33%) -- 94.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Yuttt]

venu, amoong, ferro, unaware clef, quag would be those things

o and make sure you have a way of beating mag PLUS diggersby PLUS pinsir, i cannot emphasize enough that skarm does not cut it because it will be too worn out to handle both at the same time and just overwhelmed even with shell.

dont forget gliscor in your list either

how do people go about countering diggersby nowadays? they all seem to not like avalugg...

 

[Miridy]

So guys what's your stance on taunt 3 attacks gengar?
Is there something that can even switch in on this thing?
max hp avest entei has a chance to be 2hked by sludge wave with stealth rocks on the field, and he doesn't even have a reliable recovery so yeah
sdef mandibuzz can take two sludge wave, but neither knock off nor sludge wave ohkoes, so it's quite a risky play
Same goes for sdefgliscor who doesn't get stab on knock off, though he gets poison heal so you have something against subwow gengar, so that's still something.
Dunno I have a builder block or something
Another idea I had was sdefsaur with knock off and a sassy nature, but eh, i don't know if it's worth it for gengar only

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

how do people go about countering diggersby nowadays? they all seem to not like avalugg...

Slowbro works pretty well, crocune great check, mega venu can work.

 

[Miridy]

Slowbro works pretty well, crocune great check, mega venu can work.

Both slowbro and pdefsaur are ohkoed by a +2 frustation after rocks, sadly
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 352-415 (96.7 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 378-446 (95.9 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
They are also slower than digger.
Dig it's quite a cancer on stall teams, i support jukain suggestion on running shed shell skarmory, while it's not a solution by itself it's still something that can slow him down.
Stuff like wow mew or gliscor faster than adamant dig (both) can be a great help, baloon tran with wow can somehow do something too
Gengar stops Diggersby without problems, but it's quite difficult to fit on stall teams
You can use some sort of pillaring with ferrothorn in order to wear it down but it's a risky play and ferro is killed by a +2 earthquake

 

[Sun King]

To be honest, the Digg/Mega Pinsir/ Mag trio is effing amazing. Skarmory is easily the best answer to both, but it gets overwhelmed by Maggy forcing the Shed Shell and switches. Although it's kinda unorthodox, running stall breaker Gengar could quite easily take some pressure off with Digg being completely unable to touch Gengar outside of Wild Charge (meaning it can't SD).

EDIT: Amy Sorel stopping any of the Gengar sets is usually something as simple as getting something with enough SpDef to tank Shadow Ball and then retaliate with a hit. Heatran is usually a fantastic answer, as it's immune to Sludge Wave and WoW if it's carrying it. Focus Miss hits hard, but is Focus Miss (meaning it is relatively easy to PP stall). Heatran can hit back with a Lava Plume, which--if it burns--can really rack up damage on Gengar quickly.

 

[jpw234]

I would like to second nmitchell890 in that RestTalk Gyarados is pretty ballin. I wouldn't be too secure in using it as your Char-X counter/check, but it does handle Landorus, Keldeo and Char-Y (which are like the holy trinity of specially-based heavy hitters) as well as other miscellaneous scary mons like WoW Talonflame, Gengar (absent the rare Thunderbolt), Conkeldurr, opposing Mega-Gyarados, Greninja, Heatran, SD Scizor variants and more.

 

[Zebstrika]

Gourgeist is pretty niche but it counters diggersby. The small version helps vs excadrill, gyarados, azumarill, adamant mega medicham, heracross, maybe some others, and can be a general annoyance for some teams if it gets a free substitute.

 

[jbtc10]

Trevenant deserves a theoretical mention as well, because although it has a worse physical defense stat than Gourgeist-Super, it has Chesto/Lum-Rest as a beefed-up form of reliable recovery which gives it a notable pro over Gourgeist for added longevity/reliability and being better against stall by being able to PP stall stuff and spinblock without getting worn down as easily (if only Gourgeist got Synthesis). Gourgeist is definitely much sturdier though, and if you have wish support on your team, Gourgeist will indeed be a better dedicated hard-counter for Diggersby.

 

[Zebstrika]

I actually like gourgeist for being faster than diggersby, which means it can always at least check it even on 1 % health (well check meaning cripple with will o or take off a chunk of health with seed bomb. Either way it's far easier to deal with)

 

[Miridy]

Now that I think about it, a sub wow gourgeist can easily be one of the best punishment for the new offensive core.

Hide

Gourgeist (Gourgeist-Small) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Frisk

EVs: 248 HP / 172 SDef / 88 Spd

Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)

- Will-O-Wisp

- Seed Bomb

- Substitute

- Pain Split

Enough speed to outspeed adamant digger in order to burn him, then set up subs so that you can burn down pinsir who might think he can set up on you.
The given evs allows gourgest to not be 2hked by hp fire scarfzone (actually there is a 1,2% chance to 2hko him with sr on the field, but really, it's very minor as a chance) volt switch also does not break your substitutes.
Sure it's just a niche (there is a reason why gour small is only c- rank) but there's that.

 

[Sun King]

I've been harping about restalk Gyarados for months because of the multitude of threats that he counters, plus the overall utility he brings (land immunity, status absorber). You can also make mega Gyarados work too, as a sort of endgame. CroGyarados is way underrated for stall IMO.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Is smalls speed worth it over larges bulk?

 

[Miridy]

Is smalls speed worth it over larges bulk?

The difference is a base 20 hp for the large and small form (the extra large form cannot surpass diggersby no matter what, not only that, stuff like jolly crawdaunt, adamant bisharp, 0 base 100 72 gliscor etc will also surpass you).
You'll need a positive nature and 236 speed evs in order to outspeed adamant diggersby, 88 hp evs in order to reach the same hp bulk of the small form with, if you choose to max hp you'll lose a great deal of special defense
252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gourgeist-Small: 124-148 (39.4 - 47.1%)
252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 26 SpD Gourgeist-Large: 162-192 (45.8 - 54.3%)
While if you decide to bump the special defense and then the hp (88 is the number you'll need to reach 248 gourg small) you'll lose like 19 special defensive points that gourg small has.
Not worth it, imo.

 

[alexwolf]

what it can do is use magic coat which forces a 50/50 in alomomola's favour in order to bounce back taunt, but the 50/50 between taunt or bulk up for tflame and magic coat or toxic for alomomola is annoying but alomomola has a much better chance of winning it especially since magic coat is so uncommon.

From my experience, Scald + Toxic is the most common Mola set, which outright loses to stallbreaking Talonflame.