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It doesnt matter if they were good because its entirely dependent on team match up. The strategy takes skill out of the equation. Its either you have a direct counter to SmearglePass or you pray to haxgods for a crit. Obviously if your opponent has something like dragon tail you almost certainly lose no matter how well you play but asking everyone to run niche moves to deal with it is too much.
 
Well, I'm not sure about everyone else, but I am really starting to enjoy a Victini free tier. It really goes to show who over-centralising that thing was, and a lot more Pokemon are picking up usage since it has left, giving the metagame a lot more diversity and, imo, making it healthier. I personally hope it doesn't return after retests, although I bet a few of you may disagree.
EDIT: an attempt to recreate the hole with replacement Fire-types such as Darm, Entei and Arcanine has also (surprisingly) not been attempted to fill (from what I've seen anyway), unlike what some of us had expected.

I haven't seen a single Smeargle since Geomancy was banned and it is being retested, so I don't know how the retest is going. Anyone seen it and think that it is still broken on a practical level? (which means replays if you do think it is borked)
I am starting to enjoy it more, as well. I think the one good thing that the GeoPass teams did bring to the light was the effectiveness of Memento/Tailwind Support. Dugtrio and Whimsicott or more prevalent than ever! Traditional competitive battling would let you have multiple wincons (volt-turn + hazards + Late game sweeper like double dance Haxorus for example). GeoPass showed us how effective it is when the whole team is gearing up to support 1-2 wincons. I've been toying with Memento Support for CM Slurpuff and CurseLax. Both normally have trouble setting up initial boosts, but screens/memento support really help ease both wincons.

Also, I tried QuiverPass Smeargle with similar support as denisss team. It was OK i guess. Rapid boosting was the key to that type of team. Hypothetically, Smeargle can run sash, mental herb, to beat its normal attacking/priority Taunt users to set up multiple boosts. Spore/Magic Coat/Taunt in that last moveslot really throw a wrench into the gears for your opponent to counter your strategy.

I think we should look into the fact that just because people haven't been using (abusing) Smeargle as much shouldn't take away from its potential brokeness.

I haven't seen 1 Smeargle btw since retesting began....
 

SJCrew

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One of my favorite things about Scarf Jirachi is that it just saves your ass from both Mega Aero and Lucario at once, all while outpacing Scarf Hydreigon and +1 DD Haxorus in a pinch. Even if it doesn't secure the KO against either Dragon, it can leave them in range of, say, an Extremespeed from your own Lucario, or pass a Healing Wish to something more useful at that point in the game. Then there's lead rocks, Trick, etc. It does everything, basically.
 
One of my favorite things about Scarf Jirachi is that it just saves your ass from both Mega Aero and Lucario at once, all while outpacing Scarf Hydreigon and +1 DD Haxorus in a pinch. Even if it doesn't secure the KO against either Dragon, it can leave them in range of, say, an Extremespeed from your own Lucario, or pass a Healing Wish to something more useful at that point in the game. Then there's lead rocks, Trick, etc. It does everything, basically.
Yes. Jirachi is a jack-of-all-trades, and exceeds at most of its roles. IMO its the best pokemon in UU right now, but still not broken. I really like having Jirachi in the current meta, although it annoys me to no end every other game. Oh yeah, I do hate those f****** 12 flinches in a row. It killed my entei by dealing ~8% net damage per turn. From 100 to 0. But i still dont dislike him, all things considered.
 
Do any of the council members have any positions on the Smeargle retest? Since the Geomancy ban I personally haven't encountered anyone trying to recreate the strategy and the Smeargles that I have seen have been rather average. But I want to hear what others have seen.
 

kokoloko

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basically i agree with st123's post down to a tee. consistency, while important under normal circumstances, is irrelevant when it comes to shit that completely takes skill out of the equation. when two people who are both at minimum decent at pokemon, and one of them is using screens/memento pass, the game is literally decided by wether or not the other guy has a prankster taunt/dragon tail/focus sash user.

i ran into Lowgock (at least i think it was lowgock because he said "hy" lol!) using that strat a few days ago on the ladder and the only reason i won was because i had both sash icy wind froslass and sableye and got a couple crits...... it was ridiculous.
 

dingbat

snek
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The thing about Smeargle is that... Although it's probably still broken, it's not really being used due to the sheer level of luck needed to pull the pass and the sweep off successfully (i'm talking about the quiver/smash pass sets, just for reference). It's pretty much on the same boat that Venomoth in that it was completely match-up reliant, but a solid percentage of the time (taking luck into account), it (and its recipients) would completely blow the opponent out of the water with absolutely no effort at all.

I haven't been battling much lately because of school and shit (i still lurk on Showdown), so I do not have a solid stance on this yet, but Smeargle really does have an uncompetitive side to it, especially with Espeon in this tier, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Smeargle get the official ban hammer.
 
You know, I keep seeing the exact same bullshit statements (not arguments, but baseless claims) that SmearglePass is luck-based. HOW THE FUCK IS IT LUCK-BASED? There are no moves (besides MAYBE Dark Void on Smeargle, but it's pretty inferior to Spore) that are are affected by hax. Are you talking about team match-up? Because that's a VERY different thing from luck. Admittedly, SmearglePass is the poster child for team match-up, probably the biggest since Rain Offense versus Sand Stall back in BW, but until someone explains in no uncertain terms how SmearglePass is luck-based I'm going to just assume you're following the same logic that led Kitten to vote Torn-T for UU every time you make that assertion.

Before any jackass comes through and TRIES to put the burden of proof on me despite about a million examples as to why SmearglePass is broken because of what st123 and Koko said, here's why you're wrong: There are no moves in the SmearglePass set-up that are luck-reliant, besides the aforementioned Dark Void, which is again insanely uncommon because the vast majority of Pokemon that threaten SmearglePass aren't immune to Spore. There is no flinchhax, no Moody, no Accupressure. There is no Sleep Powder, which incidentally is less reliable than Dark Void.

If we are being rational human beings and separating luck from team match-up, because running into SmearglePass on the ladder isn't "unlucky" anymore than running into it in a tournament is, then how is SmearglePass luck-based?
 

Sam

i say it's all just wind in sails
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SmearglePass is luck-based because it is entirely based on match-up. What that means is, whether or not you can beat a smeargle pass team is entirely contingent on you bringing a specific counter to it, in the form of Dragon Tail or maybe specially defensive Jirachi. There may be no moves in SmearglePass that are inherently luck-reliant, but the entire playstyle itself is based on having the advantageous match-up, which ends up being a random crapshoot. How would you feel losing a highlight tour matchup because you didn't bring Dragon Tail Mega-Aggron to counter denispass? The fact of the matter is, it is limited to specific counter that would otherwise limit teambuilding, as any team that does not run a specific counter will straight-up lose to it. It is far too match-up based for my liking, and any team that runs SmearglePass (in the correct manner) is essentially deciding the outcome of the match before turn 1.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
It's luck-based because of the team matchup aspect. Have x counter? You win. Don't? You probably lose.

Team match-up reliance should be minimized
 

Metric

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SmearglePass is luck-based because it is entirely based on match-up..
It's luck-based because of the team matchup aspect. Have x counter? You win. Don't? You probably lose.

Team match-up reliance should be minimized
Annoying thing is that I agree with what I think you're trying to say but your logic is flawed.

Luck based ≠ Team match up

Luck based is when winning the match comes straight down to the RNG. e.g. use of our beloved Swagger-Play teams. It is luck-based because of the random (albeit odds slanted in favour of the one using swagger) nature of the outcome.

Team match up is when you are at a disadvantage due to team archetype, which for examples sake could be running a rain team and coming up against Goodra/Suicune/Swampert/Shaymin/Umbreon/MAmpharos.

What Lord of Bays said is 100% correct, outside of the long/short sleeps and dodgy accuracy/%effects of a few moves, all of which are inherent to all competitive games in Pokemon, the algorithm that SmearglePass follows is otherwise devoid of 'luck'.

If SmearglePass forces an unhealthy degree of Team match-up then argue that point instead, don't lazily slap on the element of luck as being a factor because you think it suits your argument as that just results in sloppy and incorrect reasoning.
 
I'm glad Metric actually read my post. Team match-up is not luck. Stop calling it luck. You do not roll a dice, land on 5, and go "Well fuck, guess I can't run D-Tail Mega Aggron today."

We KNOW that SmearglePass is a thing and it's entirely in our power to run one of the guaranteed counters. That is that not luck-based. What makes SmearglePass still broken, however, is that these counters are EXTREMELY narrow and sometimes kinda shitty outside beating SmearglePass. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of teams currently on the ladder that are excellent teams that otherwise have no room for a SmearglePass counter, but that is not unlucky. That's a hazard of teambuilding and testament to SmearglePass' brokenness.

This may seem weird at this point that we're still arguing when we're all on the page that SmearglePass is broken, but to me this particular semantic is extremely important, as are most other semantics in Pokemon. We NEED to have the right reasons to be making decisions, and making the right decisions for the "wrong" reasons feels like a slippery slope to making the wrong decisions further down the road.

NOTE: I'm really hoping I'm not making a slippery slope fallacy right here, can someone a little better versed in logic also see the logical leap I'm making?
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I don't think that it's fair to deem team matchup completely devoid of luck.

If you were in a tournament final, and your team had a great matchup against everything except something like baton pass, would you not consider yourself to have unfortunate luck in that situation? Out of every archetype that your opponent could have picked, they chose x strategy?

Definition of luck: "success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions."

Choosing a team in that sort of situation is nearly akin to choosing a move in rock-paper-scissors. x team, you have a strong advantage. y team, you are sorely disadvantaged. There really is no way to completely influence this turn of events by your own actions when going up against such a niche strategy.

If you got splashed by water while standing on the side of the street, then you would certainly consider yourself unlucky for being at that place at that time... no rng generator invovled
 

Sam

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Lord of Bays Metric I still think you're missing the point.

You can't really call this a team match-up issue because it really isn't. The typical thing with match-ups is just about advantages and disadvantages. Let's say you build a team that is weak to stall, or even a mon (say, Hydreigon). You will be at a disadvantage if you face stall or Hydreigon or whatever you are weak to, and that is to some degree unlucky (for the reason MikeDawg stated).

What's different in this case though is, for SmearglePass this match-up advantage/disadvantage isn't really an advantage, but rather a binary "you win, or you lose" scenario. In a typical case, you can still overcome when given a match-up based disadvantage. This is taken out. It becomes "if opponent has x I lose, otherwise I win". That's a factor that is completely out of your control, but it is the only deciding factor. That sounds like luck to me. Now if x was really good or had some good non-niche uses, then we could have an actual discussion on the broken-ness of SmearglePass but I think we're all on the same page there.

Is there some sort of aversion to admitting that there's a little luck involved in team match-ups? I thought that was pretty obvious. Hax is part of luck, but there can still be more to it. There's no definition out there that says luck HAS to be RNG based. It's situational. The problem is, SmearglePass takes everything out of the equation except the luck.
 
SmearglePass is not luck based like SwagPlay or FlinchHax. Luck is determined by percentages and the RNG factor. SmearglePass only has few viable counters and checks, which have been established before as being kind of bad, or really specific. The strategy known as SmearglePass doesnt rely on luck, but has a very favorable matchup against most teams in UU atm.

Just because people dont know how to effectively use or abuse SmearglePass (or other broken mons) doesnt make it less broken. SmearglePass is broken because it has the potential to overcentralize the meta. Having a check or counter to mega ampharos is required since its a top threat, but its not so overcentralizing that it requires a handful of pokes that are so niche that they wouldnt be used otherwise.

The only role luck plays regarding SmearglePass is if 1. The opponent misplays (i.e. predicting x move when y move happens). 2. Dark Void miss (doesnt make SmearglePass any less broken) or 3. Lucky crits orbflinches. Other than those 3 aspects and obscure mons, SmearglePass has little to no true counters.

I hope this cleans stuff up a bit :-)
 
If you get splashed by water standing next to the street, that is not unlucky. You had the power to check whether or not there was water that could be splashed on you. You either failed to do so, or failed to realize that you should move. When there is such an obviously broken strategy that still hasn't quite been completely dealt with (though I applaud Our Benevolent Dictators [plural just doesn't have the same ring to it] on banning Geomancy), if you do not take measures to insure yourself against it I can fault you no less than not preparing for Choice Band Victini when it was around.

You have the choice to make whether or not to prepare for SmearglePass. Stop calling it bad luck when you CHOOSE to not run a counter.

This was originally written up to MikeDawg's post, but namehtmas posted right after I finished writing the bold text, everything after is a response to their post.

It absolutely is a team match-up issue. When we already have very hard-and-fast terms, muddying the water by crossing them over is going to lead to disaster. That's not a slippery slope, that's a fact. The term "luck" has now been canonized as hax, and 99% of players out there in the competitive community will NOT cross those wires. Imagine a conversation with a new player who has been doing a fair amount of research but has little-to-no battle experience going like this:

Newb: "Hey, I heard about Denis' team and how it's hella broken. Why is it broken?"
Idiot: "Well, it's luck-based, and we ban all luck-based strategies because we want the most skillful player to win."
Newb: "Oh really? How is it luck-based? Does it rely on flinchhax or something that is RNG-reliant like I've been reading on?"
Idiot: "No, just that if you carry a counter to it, you win, if you don't, you lose. Sounds really luck-based, right?"
Newb: "No, actually, that sounds like the epitome of a team match-up. Sorta like how in Ubers if you don't carry a decent check or counter to Geomancy Xerneas you're gonna have a bad time, but 99x worse."

"Idiot" might be a strong word, but this isn't fucking luck-based. It is no more "luck-based" than someone like me who struggles to break the 1500s running into players like Limitless or Koko over and over and getting my shit pushed in. Until Smeargle is banned (which frankly, I'm for. Banning Geomancy helped, but QuiverPass is clearly just as damning), it is a strategy that we have clean-cut counters for, and you either choose to lose to SmearglePass or you choose to beat it. No luck in that.

I'll try this in different terms: I'm a member of the competitive Smash community, and I main Wolf in Brawl. A traditionally horrible match-up is Falco, who has an almost-guaranteed 0-to-death chain grab on me. I'm fully aware that I have a friend who mains Falco that is going to a big tournament that I am also attending. Do I pray that I don't face him in the bracket and john that I got unlucky if I do, or do I work my ass off picking up a character that counters Falco? I'm fully out of words here to express why SmearglePass isn't a luck-based strategy. At this point, you're either going to ignore me and insist it's luck-based through some bullshit logic, or you'll see why team match-up is the problem and trying to attribute "luck" to it is about as laughable as Kitten voting Torn-T UU.
 
I think we're all zeroing in on the fact that geopass teams are completely formulaic. They have a series of plays that are run through no matter what the opponent does (unless the opponent runs a hard counter like Dragon tail). The play style has nearly removed all the competitive aspects we love: dynamic strategy, risk vs reward management, prediction, and team building.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
lord of bays said:
If you get splashed by water standing next to the street, that is not unlucky. You had the power to check whether or not there was water that could be splashed on you. You either failed to do so, or failed to realize that you should move.
If you go outside, you could get bitten by a bug and die of west nile. If you get out of bed, you could trip and hit your head on the floor.

Can you stay inside for your entire life, or not get out of bed? Yes. You have control over whether these things happen to you. Is it realistic? No. It would take very unfortunate circumstances to have any of these scenarios play out. You are taking a chance by doing everything, but taking that chance is pretty much a neccesity (as is having a few flaws in a team). It takes bad luck for that chance to be exploited for the worse.

As the # of pokemon grows, the team matchup reliance follows suit. Given how it leaves sthe advantage of a battle up to chance from turn 1, it should be minimized via bans.
 
Anyone else getting deja vu with this argument? It's almost like the same points were being argued in OU a while back...
Wouldn't be surprising given how formulaic the play style is since it is literally a plug and play here in UU as all mons that generally comprise the core, sans Goth, is available or have a good substitute.
 
Just to catch everyone up to pace, Smeargle vote has begun and the results should be completed over the weekend at the latest considering the strong distaste I have witnessed among council members. I am now back, I spent 1 week on a volunteer trip at a zoo for anyone that cares, which is the reason i've been slacking quite a bit on posting and keeping everyone up to date etc. I think that's all in that regard, UU seems to be flowing alright without me anyway.

Just my quick thoughts on Smeargle. What I have always had a problem with whether it was stretching from Ubers to LC, is that Baton Pass is purely based on matchup. Smeargle basically allows average players to beat good players purely through means of a good matchup and forces such a restriction on teambuilding, that if you're not carrying A, B, C Pokemon, you basically have to just hope your opponent misplays or you can get lucky. Geomancy was a clear tipper over the edge for Smeargle, but I think that Quiverpass, Smashpass and hell even shit like Shift Gear, puts Smeargle in a similar light to that which Geomancy gifted it. However, I don't wanna see any more luck based arguments, if you honestly are trying to argue for luck as a factor of Smeargle's success, you may need to consult the Pokedictionary on what luck and team matchup and whatever else you peeps are arguing about cause some of the posts i've seen are fairly flawed.

Have a lovely day :]
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Thing is though, Smogon generally does not favor complex bans unless we really have to do it, I mean, that basically complicates the banlist far too much. We could ban BP altogether, but the move itself is hardly broken on any other Pokemon and Baton Pass was already nerfed hard enough by OU as is to be a balanced move in the tier. Banning V-Create on Victini is also a complex ban and that just complicates the banlist too much. The choices here are down to not banning these Pokemon at all or keeping them banned altogether. If we do wind up putting moves in the banlist, then they will probably apply to every Pokemon that gets access to it. Plus, even if Victini (hopefully) stays banned, you can still use it in OU no problem, Victini also performs quite well in OU so its BL status is hardly a big deal.

The only time I can recall seeing a complex ban being enforced was Aldaron's proposal, but that was kind of a unique incident where it had to be done, so yeah.
 
I agree, but let's stick with UU, please. I'm thinking I'm gonna try a PDef RestTalk Mega Ampharos set once Victini drops back. Should I use Volt Switch or Thunderbolt for Electric STAB?
 
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