Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[Goddess Briyella]

I use specs Mag and Vulpix, Band Tailow should still be viable. Specs Vulpix is disgusting without Krow and Missy

I am one of the strongest advocators of Choice Band/Specs on Pokemon that can pivot or cripple an enemy with Trick or Switcheroo, but I have to ask:

Why Choice Band Taillow when you can use Guts and a status orb? It's the same boost and you can switch moves.

Air Balloon is another interesting item, TCR came up with an Elekid set that used Air Balloon and thief, which makes Elekid really hard to deal with initially.

I'm having trouble understanding this as well. Why Air Balloon when literally any neutral attack will knock Elekid for a loop? 45/37/55 is not going to be putting up with damage at all, especially without Eviolite. Who cares if you can't Earthquake it at first when you can easily OHKO or 2HKO with pretty much anything? I don't see why it doesn't find Life Orb or Choice Scarf to be better items. It wants power and Speed, not a temporary immunity to something that is definitely not required to kill it.

It doesn't beat Drilbur with Air Balloon either.

240 SpA Elekid Hidden Power Ice vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Elekid: 10-12 (52.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Edit: Rowan showed me this on IRC:

16 Atk Elekid Ice Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drilbur: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm just wondering what Elekid does when Drilbur switches out to Chinchou, a super-common Pokemon.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Well firstly Choice Scarf, Eviolite and Berry Juice are obviously items that fit most requirements for Pokemon. Specs and band are very cool on switcheroo or trick mons. scrappy specs tailow with Boomburst was cool when missy was around because it ignores sub and does some nice damage and that set could still be fun in this meta I guess.

In terms of unorthodox item choices Buneary can pull off switcheroo Assault Vest. And Facade + Guts mons like Teddirusa and Tailow enjoy Toxic Orb. LC unlike other tiers has not many viable items in most circumstances.

And of course Focus Sash is used on Abra, sometimes Gastly so it can dbond and maybe some gimmicky counter/mirror coat mon idn

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Also, this is late, but after doing calcs for Choice Specs Vulpix that Wobbyble mentioned:

196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Sun: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Sun: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Choice Specs guarantees the OHKO on Mienfoo, while Life Orb doesn't and leaves a pretty good chance of survival.


196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vullaby is considered one of the Pokemon that can combat sun offense with Brave Bird to kill Chlorophyll sweepers, a resistance to Solar Beam, and an immunity to Sleep Powder via Overcoat. This is pretty nasty. Choice Specs has a high chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, while Life Orb only has a negligible chance.


196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke in Sun: 11-13 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke in Sun: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen in Sun: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen in Sun: 16-18 (69.5 - 78.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Holy shit. I could get more calcs but I'm pretty sure the difference in damage here is clear.

 

[apt-get]

Also, this is late, but after doing calcs for Choice Specs Vulpix that Wobbyble mentioned:

196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Sun: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Sun: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Choice Specs guarantees the OHKO on Mienfoo, while Life Orb doesn't and leaves a pretty good chance of survival.


196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Vullaby is considered one of the Pokemon that can combat sun offense with Brave Bird to kill Chlorophyll sweepers, a resistance to Solar Beam, and an immunity to Sleep Powder via Overcoat. This is pretty nasty. Choice Specs has a high chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, while Life Orb only has a negligible chance.


196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke in Sun: 11-13 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke in Sun: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


196 SpA Choice Specs Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen in Sun: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen in Sun: 16-18 (69.5 - 78.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Holy shit. I could get more calcs but I'm pretty sure the difference in damage here is clear.

I used overheat vulpix with LO, which guaranteed all these KOes, and didn't leave you as setup bait for omanyte
I could also use will-o and shit and still spam fire blast lategame

probs better than specs

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I used overheat vulpix with LO, which guaranteed all these KOes, and didn't leave you as setup bait for omanyte
I could also use will-o and shit and still spam fire blast lategame

probs better than specs

Can't 2HKO Slowpoke, though.

 

[apt-get]

Can't 2HKO Slowpoke, though.

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-18 (48.1 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 116 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
???

 

[tcr]

Can't 2HKO Slowpoke, though.

implying slowpoke is common

I'm just wondering what Elekid does when Drilbur switches out to Chinchou, a super-common Pokemon.

The same thing Pokemon such as Pawniard or Scraggy do when Mienfoo / Timburr / Spritzee come in: switch out.

In all honesty, the power difference is not noticeable enough to warrant fully restricting your moves. As you showed, you only tend to get a tiny spike, a higher chance to hit a higher roll or a mid roll as opposed to LO's. Just look at Fire Blast on Archen, where the minimum damage is the same for both, yet it is probably 3-4 out of 18 for Life Orb and 1 out of 18 for Choice Specs, which is more powerful but definitely not as good taking into account risk v reward. Choice Scarf is different, as the change is incredibly noticeable being that Speed is super duper important.

I do hype up things like type berries though, as they are incredibly useful if you play them right. Seeing as I have a risky playstyle and will tend to just sac a mon or two to try and finish the game, being able to lure in and eliminate common Pokemon is excellent, especially for hyper offensive teams.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-18 (48.1 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Energy Ball vs. 116 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
???

The point is you can't spam Overheat or get 2HKOs against resisted targets, and Energy Ball definitely won't be doing much after Overheat. Fire Blast really hurts and can be used repeatedly for high damage even against resisted targets.

implying slowpoke is common

Slowpoke is an essential part of Regenerator cores for stall and semi-stall, and always will be. It has the bulk to tolerate almost anything and retaliate with Thunder Wave or Scald, while healing itself easily with Slack Off and Regenerator.

 

[apt-get]

The point is you can't spam Overheat or get 2HKOs against resisted targets, and Energy Ball definitely won't be doing much after Overheat. Fire Blast really hurts and can be used repeatedly for high damage even against resisted targets.

Usually, the opponent having slowpoke means 90% that they will switch into it. energy ball, and overheat on the switch out
it's actually better because you can play around poke and OHKO something with overheat just because LO vulpix is so strong and can actually switch moves
plus, yeah slowpoke isn't that common, so if the only reason for specs is "deals more to slowpoke", it's a p shit reason

Slowpoke is an essential part of Regenerator cores for stall and semi-stall, and always will be. It has the bulk to tolerate almost anything and retaliate with Thunder Wave or Scald, while healing itself easily with Slack Off and Regenerator.

stall and semi stall are not common tho (and not good imo, but I won't get into that argument)

 

[Wobbyble]

Band Tailow doesn't need for Flame Orb to activate so you get immediate power, no burn damage, can fake a scarf, lets run scrappy or go for ballsy Guts + Band combo with prediction

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Band Tailow doesn't need for Flame Orb to activate so you get immediate power, no burn damage, can fake a scarf, lets run scrappy or go for ballsy Guts + Band combo with prediction

I actually like that because sometimes having to wait a turn for the Guts makes me unable to knock out the opposing mon because of that first turn wait. If you run protect to pass that turn, band allows you to run a different move instead of wasting a slot on Protect. Protect also allows your opponent to switch in without getting punished by any damage whatsoever, even if it's minimal. Plus you don't get whittled down which is nice. Getting locked in isn't fun, but I think the Guts+Band combo can be something which punishes users looking to try and Wil-o or Toxic a threatening mon on your team.

 

[Shrug]

Along with Band Tailow is Band Dodou who is criminally underrated with Knock Off to set up Fletchling, Quick Attack for some prio, and two nuke attacks in Return and Brave Bird backed by 18 speed, absorbs sleep too which is nice for an easy switch-in to Foongus

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Along with Band Tailow is Band Dodou who is criminally underrated with Knock Off to set up Fletchling, Quick Attack for some prio, and two nuke attacks in Return and Brave Bird backed by 18 speed, absorbs sleep too which is nice for an easy switch-in to Foongus

It should be noted that Doduo's Brave Bird is just as strong as Murkrow's Brave Bird was. With this in consideration, it's probably better off just going with Life Orb, given that Murkrow could easily 2HKO most things anyway. It would probably want to be able to Roost on a forced switch to heal damage caused by Brave Bird recoil as well.

Knock Off is pretty huge for Doduo too.

 

[boo836]

Band Tailow doesn't need for Flame Orb to activate so you get immediate power, no burn damage, can fake a scarf, lets run scrappy or go for ballsy Guts + Band combo with prediction

Why would you run scrappy when BB already outdamages anything you can throw at a ghost? ?_? Why would you bother running Band when you can have the opportunity of not being complete fodder? wobby pls, it isn't like taillow really needs health lol

 

[BadPandaPancham]

Why would you run scrappy when BB already outdamages anything you can throw at a ghost? ?_? Why would you bother running Band when you can have the opportunity of not being complete fodder? wobby pls, it isn't like taillow really needs health lol

Status moves are common. Switch in a Banded Guts Taillow on a Wil-O, instant 2x attack and high speed. Could easily clean up a game. Also, the health thing on Taillow is really situational. Plus Flame Orb / Toxic Orb + BB will kill Taillow really fast.

 

[Wobbyble]

Why would you run scrappy when BB already outdamages anything you can throw at a ghost? ?_? Why would you bother running Band when you can have the opportunity of not being complete fodder? wobby pls, it isn't like taillow really needs health lol

Scrappy lets you hit Ghosts with Quick Attack or use Frustration on Chinchou without have to worry about a Gastly switch. It's pretty situational but it's there. You can also use banded Returns for cleanup when Tailow is low and can kill itself in recoil from Brave Bird.
Band as I said, also gives you immediate power and doesn't need something like Protect to guarantee activation of Guts. And yeah Tailow does in fact require health considering you take damage from Brave Bird, burn, Stealth Rocks, and switching into things like Fake Outs and such.

So yeah there are reasons for using Band, you should probably provide a more coherent argument next time instead of saying random things that I already covered in my op.

 

[boo836]

Scrappy lets you hit Ghosts with Quick Attack or use Frustration on Chinchou without have to worry about a Gastly switch. It's pretty situational but it's there. You can also use banded Returns for cleanup when Tailow is low and can kill itself in recoil from Brave Bird.
Band as I said, also gives you immediate power and doesn't need something like Protect to guarantee activation of Guts. And yeah Tailow does in fact require health considering you take damage from Brave Bird, burn, Stealth Rocks, and switching into things like Fake Outs and such.

So yeah there are reasons for using Band, you should probably provide a more coherent argument next time instead of saying random things that I already covered in my op.

Way too situational to be considered. There's no reason why you'd be fearing a Gastly switch considering you outspeed Gastly anyways. Taillow isn't taking hits, and in all likelihood would be dying or worse yet, become MASSIVE fodder. When it's maintaining momentum vs staying up 1 for a turn, the only sensible choice is momentum. :/

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Way too situational to be considered. There's no reason why you'd be fearing a Gastly switch considering you outspeed Gastly anyways.

Outspeeding Gastly doesn't matter if you're Choice-locked into a move that doesn't hurt it.

 

[apt-get]

Outspeeding Gastly doesn't matter if you're Choice-locked into a move that doesn't hurt it.

??? He's arguing in favor of flame orb, not against it...

 

[kingmidas]

Outspeeding Gastly doesn't matter if you're Choice-locked into a move that doesn't hurt it.

Taillow=19 speed. Gastly=18 speed. unless you're talking about scarf gastly which sorta makes sense.

 

[Wobbyble]

Way too situational to be considered. There's no reason why you'd be fearing a Gastly switch considering you outspeed Gastly anyways. Taillow isn't taking hits, and in all likelihood would be dying or worse yet, become MASSIVE fodder. When it's maintaining momentum vs staying up 1 for a turn, the only sensible choice is momentum. :/

You talk about momentum yet you fail to acknowledge that it takes a turn to activate Flame Orb. You get free burn only by getting a free switch in, getting a free revenge kill, or running protect. The only real way Tailow becomes fodder is if you lock yourself into Quick Attack, which should only happen if you have to clean something up. Everything else should just be Bbird and Uturn spam.

Both sets have very clear cut advantages over each other, but I doubt you'll even acknowledge a word I say, so whatever.

 

[prem]

real talk, why are you mentioning flame orb when toxic orb is better. lets ignore that this is totally irrelevent to the arguement i just thought that was dumb

 

[Goddess Briyella]

That's my bad. I was speaking in terms of Band + Guts, which was mentioned earlier. I was saying that Choice Band Taillow outspeeding Gastly is obsolete if Gastly comes in on the Normal move it's immune to, because Taillow would then have to switch. I am in support of Scrappy if Choice Band is used here.

 

[boo836]

You talk about momentum yet you fail to acknowledge that it takes a turn to activate Flame Orb. You get free burn only by getting a free switch in, getting a free revenge kill, or running protect. The only real way Tailow becomes fodder is if you lock yourself into Quick Attack, which should only happen if you have to clean something up. Everything else should just be Bbird and Uturn spam.

Both sets have very clear cut advantages over each other, but I doubt you'll even acknowledge a word I say, so whatever.

Yeah it's not like common set up sweepers resist both STABs or anything. There's multiple ways to get status without using Protect, like U-Turning into Taillow or applying pressure on Fighting types. Also, Facade already has a damn good chance to OHKO BJ Chou with Facade, so I have no idea why you think it's viable.

Bri, if you already outspeed Gastly then Choice Band is completely irrelevant. There's like no reason to run Band at all lol

 

[Wobbyble]

Oh yeah Toxic Orb's better. But either way, I've been told that BandKrow was trash, and I've said that Vulpix was a useless mon other than setting up Sun for Tangela (which I think it was during that hyper agressive meta). BandKrow netted so many OHKOs and 2HKOs that LO missed out on, and Specs Vulpix is now probably one of the most underrated powerhouses right now.

If you run Protect Tailow I can promise you that eventually it will cost you a game where you miss Quick Attack. If you don't run Protect you'll eventually lose a game for not being able to trigger Toxic Orb for free, or because you had to take a Fake Out to the face. Status damage from Tailow can lose you games, and being locked into a move can do the same. Band Tailow can also be used as a better lead than Toxic Orb. Point I'm trying to get across is stop being so closed minded about meta picks, so much stuff works that you would never even consider, like how Toxic SubRoost Krow used to work, Band Cranidos, 0 speed Swords Dance Drilbur, etc.