Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

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Kangaskhan: A- Rank ---> A Rank

Kangaskhan is a fantastic Pokemon, and I don't mean to use usage as an argument but Kangaskhan is killing it. It's everywhere right now and it's for a good reason. Thanks to Scrappy, nothing likes switching into it really, and with Double-Edge, it can just nuke things. Kangaskhan's priority is great with Fake Out + Sucker Punch picking off Pokemon and its last slot is often coverage. I saw mention of a neat AV set I've yet to try out, but I think it has merit. Out of all the A- Pokemon, Kangaskhan stands out as the best for me. Not sure others views on this, but I do think this is a feasible change.

Flareon: B- Rank ---> B Rank

Flareon is a really powerful Pokemon. Flare Blitz hurts, and almost nothing really cares to stomach it. What seperates Flareon from other Fire-types is Superpower, which enables it to beat Rock-types. Flareon also has Baton Pass to keep up momentum, Quick Attack for priority, and Will-O-Wisp for general crippling. It Special Defense is quite nice as well. Flareon is seeing more usage recently and is a force to be reckoned with and I could see it being moved up a rank.

Thoughts?
 
Nominated Changes:
C+ to B- / B
C+ to B
C to B / B+


After looking at the C and B ranks of our current viability rankings, these four stood out to me really as not C rank material. Each sports multiple niches in the current metagame and always has ways of standing out, having unique traits that only they can offer in NU, and each does their job incredibly effectively, and although each requires support, they have far higher cost effectiveness than fellow C mons, as well as being more versatile.
Simipour is something I feel strongly about. I've been playing around with it a lot recently, and I can confidently say it is deserving of a Solid B or B- rank. With a blazing 101 speed, it is pretty easy to clean opponents especially with hazards support, and unlike its brethren of Ludicolo and Samurott, who it is not only faster than, but it sports Nasty Plot over them, a major boon. Especially when equipped with Rindo berry, a +2 Simipour is incredibly hard to stop, and has the perfect speed to back it up, barely catching the likes of Typhlosion and Ninetales. Simipour also sports a really cool SubEndeavor set, which although most of the tier is depressed with since it lacks Flying Gem to ensure key KOs, it can still bait out common water spam checks such as Jynx or Vileplume with Knock Off, as well as using SubEndeavor to wear down another one. Choiced Sets are also better on Simipour than any other NU water type, and it makes for an interesting user of Choice Specs and Choice Scarf, as it finds itself fighting for the only slot as a water type revenge killer, and also Specs Hydro Pump is stupid strong. Although Simipour definitely has notable flaws when compared to Ludicolo and Samurott, one of whom has better typing and the other is noticeably stronger, Simipour's unique speed stat and cool movepool makes it an interesting pokemon capable of supporting offensive teams to the full extent as a sweeper, wallbreaker, and bait.
Torterra in my opinion is an incredibly versatile pokemon in the current NU metagame. It is a great Tank who gets good matchups against all common NU leads, including Seismitoad, Rhydon, etc and easily OHKOs every lead off the bat with either STAB EQ or Wood Hammer, 2HKOing shit like Qwilfish at worst. Regarldess, Torterra is not only a great bulky SR lead, but also has an amazing Choice Band Set that can catch the opponent off guard, and boasting a massive attack and STAB Wood Hammer, the set is incredibly difficult to switch into. Furthermore, Torterra can even sweep with Rock Polish or Double Dance, easily smashing through Offensive teams that otherwise outspeed and KO torterra. Torterra's amazing bulk and power alongside a cool STAB combination of typing is unparallelled in the NU tier and there really isn't anything that does what Torterra does, and it really is an incredible pokemon.
Kadabra should not be this low. It stands far and above NU as one of the fastest pokemon in the tier and at the same time it packs an absurdly high Special Attack Stat as well as Magic Guard, making it one of the tier's premier sweepers and revenge killers simply by being equipped with a Sash. Kadabra easily outspeeds the majority of NU and has access to loads of coverage moves including Psychic, Dazzling Gleam, Hidden Power, Grass Knot, and Shadow Ball just to name a few, and using a filler slot can provide a range of utility options, including Encore to easily smash stuff trying to set up like Calm Mind Musharna, or Taunt to prevent hazards early on into the match and stop stall. Kadabra's unique ability makes its competition 0 in current NU, and although it is completely frail and is incredibly exposed to fast priority and strong quick mons, its utility is unquestioned and it can often provide a clutch win for any offensive team in need of a revenge killer with powerful special attack and great coverage.

*edit*
Also Barbaracle down to C+ / B-. For me, its simply far too much of a hassle to set up with mediocre bulk and poor typing, and even with a Smash under its belt its miss rate is simply too high to be a reliable sweeper. Outside of the niche of baiting and killing Seismitoad, Barbaracle is compeltely and utterly outclassed by Kabutops and Carracosta in everything it wants to do.
 

Punchshroom

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Brawlfest I agree with Simipour and Torterra's promotions to B, those two are pretty swell. Kadabra is more of a B for me; its 'offensive utility' niche is unique enough to warrant use, but it is fairly constricted in terms of revenge killing (realistically only one target), and the tier now has numerous Psychic-types that provide more/better utility, are more versatile, or have superior coverage.

Barbaracle is something I have always looked at for a while. On one hand, it provides much less utility than Carracosta and newcomer Kabutops, which both have Aqua Jet to hit faster foes without the need to boost. It compensates by using a coverage move in place of the slot for Aqua Jet, which with Tough Claws actually makes Barbaracle a pretty decent holepuncher, compared to its Rock-/Water- brethren. Grass Knot lures Toad and dents Poliwrath, while Cross Chop clobbers Ferroseed and pink blobs, so even without a boost Barbaracle is substantially harder for slower teams to deal with than Costa or even Kabutops. Sure, most of its main attacks have a chance to miss, but when its best attack, Tough Claws Razor Shell (which has 100 BP), has 95% accuracy, I can put that behind me: note that Barbaracle's strongest move is more reliable than either Costa's or Tops's strongest move aka Stone Miss. Barbaracle is better than Tops and Costa against slower teams, and while worse against offensive teams it's not that far behind. It can stay in B.
 
Change:
Sandslash from C+ to B-/B

The main reason why I want sandslash b is because its the most reliable spinner in the current meta. Its really easily checked, however running a SD Lum set allows it to bypass every spin blocker in the tier. Gourgeist fails to 2hko with 0 attack seed bomb, you 2hko at +2 with knock, and burn is irrelevant thanks to lum. You have knock off as well as a lum berry for mismagius/misdreavus/rotom. And as far as dusclops and dusknoir are concerned, dusclops is extremely crippled after a knock off(not to mention a +2 adamant knock only JUST fail to 2hko) and dusknoir is 2hko by knock at +2.

This Mon can run defensive sets as well and is the most viable Mon with both rocks and rapid spin if that's what you are looking for (Armaldo isn't that viable, really)

Overall. This Mon has the neccesary tools to be a decent rapid spinner, far more than what people give it credit for, it has intense competition in kabutops, which has a couple of bulk/typing problems compared to sandslash, not to mention its typing doesn't clash with any major sweepers in the tier.
 
Change:
Sandslash from C+ to B-/B

The main reason why I want sandslash b is because its the most reliable spinner in the current meta. Its really easily checked, however running a SD Lum set allows it to bypass every spin blocker in the tier. Gourgeist fails to 2hko with 0 attack seed bomb, you 2hko at +2 with knock, and burn is irrelevant thanks to lum. You have knock off as well as a lum berry for mismagius/misdreavus/rotom. And as far as dusclops and dusknoir are concerned, dusclops is extremely crippled after a knock off(not to mention a +2 adamant knock only JUST fail to 2hko) and dusknoir is 2hko by knock at +2.

This Mon can run defensive sets as well and is the most viable Mon with both rocks and rapid spin if that's what you are looking for (Armaldo isn't that viable, really)

Overall. This Mon has the neccesary tools to be a decent rapid spinner, far more than what people give it credit for, it has intense competition in kabutops, which has a couple of bulk/typing problems compared to sandslash, not to mention its typing doesn't clash with any major sweepers in the tier.
"Most reliable Spinner in the Current meta"


>DoesNotApprove

This said, I do support Sandslash to go up to B-, as it is definitely one of the most viable spinners, and offers unique typing from the rest, while having solid offensive and defensive presence. Its just a solid pokemon in general, although I absolutely refute the statement of most reliable spinner in the current meta.
 
Change:
Sandslash from C+ to B-/B

The main reason why I want sandslash b is because its the most reliable spinner in the current meta. Its really easily checked, however running a SD Lum set allows it to bypass every spin blocker in the tier. Gourgeist fails to 2hko with 0 attack seed bomb, you 2hko at +2 with knock, and burn is irrelevant thanks to lum. You have knock off as well as a lum berry for mismagius/misdreavus/rotom. And as far as dusclops and dusknoir are concerned, dusclops is extremely crippled after a knock off(not to mention a +2 adamant knock only JUST fail to 2hko) and dusknoir is 2hko by knock at +2.

This Mon can run defensive sets as well and is the most viable Mon with both rocks and rapid spin if that's what you are looking for (Armaldo isn't that viable, really)

Overall. This Mon has the neccesary tools to be a decent rapid spinner, far more than what people give it credit for, it has intense competition in kabutops, which has a couple of bulk/typing problems compared to sandslash, not to mention its typing doesn't clash with any major sweepers in the tier.
I support this 100%! I've talked about Slash before i think. You're forgetting a few of its selling points though :
-SR resistance unlike other spinners and most defoggers
-SR availability (maybe i mispelled?) so it can both setup and remove hazard
-Typing gives it one important immunity vs electric, this means that rotom (best spinblocker in NU imo) can only hurt him with Ghost STAB and it fears getting its item knocked off, basically it can 1v1 rotom and rotom fears switching into Slash.
-Finally and this is just pure stretching or thinking outside of the box, AV sandslash can take one or maybe too SE hits (not boosted ones though) and allow him to RS instead of being force switched by the likes of defensive vileplume, defensive Qwil, Defensive seismi/pelipper even with hazard damage :

0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Sandslash: 188-224 (53.1 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 284-336 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 390-458 (110.1 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Sandslash: 258-306 (72.8 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 242-288 (68.3 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Sandslash: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Sandslash: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Seismitoad Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 242-288 (68.3 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course most of these are still 2HKO but thats without investing in Special Defense.

All those reasons + the ones HJAD said (offensive slash) make me think he deserves a spot in B-/B rank
 
B Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.


With that in mind, I would like to see Grumpig move from C to B. My reason for this is it has a very strong niche in Thick Fat, Heal Bell, Whirlwind, and Taunt. It's strong special bulk allows it to wall most special attacks. It also is one of the few pokemon that can wall mixed Magmortar. I'll use a few calcs to show my point.

20 Atk Magmortar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 100-118 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 67.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

236+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 64-76 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 97-115 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- 29.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Grumpig is one of the best checks to all variants of Magmortar. And the pure utility it can also provide makes it a strong candidate for rank B.
 
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Primeape B- ---> B or B+

Not sure if this has been posted alot of times, but here is my reason for why i think Primeape should be rank B or B+:
As been said before it faces alot of competition with Sawk, which debatable has better coverage. However, putting a Scarf on Primeape makes it(atleast from what i have seen), a huge threat to most teams, and not alot of pokes wants to stay in facing Primeape. Using a few calcs to show of what i mean before continuing.

252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Pawniard: 900-1060 (306.1 - 360.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Primeape U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 324-382 (145.9 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Primeape Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 202-238 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(while it does not OHKO, it renders the Archeops somewhat useless because of its ability, making it able to easily 2HKO)

With a Scarf, you are able to outspeed alot of threats in NU, or if you feel unsafe, a U-turn out is still a great option. A Close Combat from Primeape is massive damage, and again, not alot of NU pokes wants to stay in versus it.

While Primeape is not the bulkiest pokemon out there, the move coverage and great scarf user it is, makes it quite the good sweeper in my opinion, and i would to see it at a higher rank. Cheers
 
those calcs don't show anything because i can just post this and achieve the same thing:
252+ Atk Life Orb Abra Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 244-291 (105.6 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

also re archeops:
252 Atk Defeatist Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 288-338 (106.2 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

your calcs of a close combat on a pawniard or a physical move on a kadabra aren't differentiating primeape from sawk, let alone any other pokemon
 

Punchshroom

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On one hand, I do think that Primeape is a bit low in B-. However, I don't believe Scarf is a good reason to bring it up, since it has a somewhat poor reputation compared to its other sets.

Primeape has a couple of things going for it that Swak doesn't have. The first is the combination of Encore + U-turn, which can easily snag some momentum. While I know that Liepard is far and away the better (best) offensive user, Primeape has better offensive presence and coverage. Encore also allows Primeape to threaten Defog users by forcing them to reactivate Defiant, and since most Defoggers make good Primeape switch-ins, being forced out puts their teammates at risk from +2 attacks, or have a much harder time switching into a +2 Primeape, which isn't good news for them. Speaking of Defiant, it makes use of Defog and Intimidate users, and even the ocassional Sticky Web (but only if Ape is Scarfed). It's not the most reliable way of boosting its Attack, but it is something it has over Sawk, plus it greatly helps Choice Band Primeape from a wallbreaking perspective: its Close Combats have a chance of 2HKOing Granbull after SR, while guaranteeing it against Qwilfish, something Sawk can never hope to do without Poison Jab and Earthquake. To futher rub it in Sawk's face, Choice Band Defiant Primeape can OHKO Granbull with Gunk Shot, meaning it makes for a good lure as well. Primeape's Speed is not that much more than Sawk, but being able to reliably check Kangaskhan is pretty huge, and speedtying/outspeeding the likes of Xatu, Jynx, the Rotoms, and Vivillon are nice bonuses.

Not having Knock Off sucks though, since Primeape doesn't have an effective attack to use against Ghosts, particularly Rotom and Mismagius (unless Ape uses Punishment, which is about as efficient as running Poison Jab on Sawk, aka not very). Ghost usage is likely to increase as well, given the rise of spinners. However, U-turn can help remedy this, since it can be very easy to just get these two stuck before a Pursuit user which can promptly get rid of them. I don't know about you, but that seems a heck of a lot easier to do than whatever it is you try to do to get rid of Granbull or Qwilfish, which aren't nearly disposed of as easily.

I feel Primeape is being downplayed a lot, it is a lot more versatile than Sawk and (arguably) needs less support to do its job(s). It should at least be B, maybe even B+ because brother, the Choice Band set hits like a fuker since it can spam Close Combat more safely, and isn't walled by the same common things Choice Band Sawk is (and is significantly faster), making it a notable standalone threat in its own right.
 
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those calcs don't show anything because i can just post this and achieve the same thing:
252+ Atk Life Orb Abra Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pawniard: 244-291 (105.6 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

also re archeops:
252 Atk Defeatist Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 288-338 (106.2 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

your calks of a close combat on a poniard or a physical move on a kadabra aren't differentiating primeape from sawk, let alone any other pokemon
To be perfectly honest i just wrote my opinion based on about 50 NU games, all with a scarfed Primeape. I do know it might not be the best of its sets, but the option of being able to actually put a scarf on it, makes me think it is versatile and covers enough threats to be moved to a higher B-ranking. and yea you just posted an LC matchup(which probably would not happen in NU tbh) and:
236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 38-48 (200 - 252.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, i never said it is a better Sawk, i just think it is good enough to be at a higher ranking and closer to Sawk.
 

tennisace

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The point of the Abra calc wasn't to show that Abra beats Pawniard, it was to show that it's really easy to cherry pick obvious calcs and make bad cases for/against something. Showing that an STAB fighting attack can OHKO an NFE 4x weak to it is the equivalent of a scientific paper stating that water is wet. A better calc would have been calcing Primape Gunk Shot vs Granbull and Sawk Poison Jab vs Granbull, as Punchshroom alluded to in his post.
 
i'm not even saying whether primeape or sawk is better or not and i'm honestly not really interested in what's considered "better" by everyone at the end of the day. i'm just pushing/encouraging you and other people who do the same thing to look at good unique qualities that a certain pokemon has because that's what ranks a pokemon's viability and puts up discussion. putting up calcs that are obvious will only have people think "so what?" and it's also faulty in the case of the archeops which i showed where primeape can't even try to 2hko because archeops can take an ice punch without stealth rock and still ohko back even with defeatist

not even considering choice scarf and looking at just inherent aspects alone, focus on how 95 base speed let's it check things like zangoose and kangaskhan, while at worst tying with other base 95s like jynx, leafeon, and electivire. sawk can't really attempt any of those if its going to be ohko'd or has to take a lot of damage in exchange. one of the best qualities of primeape is how it works well in tandem with spikes support considering how the residual damage is nice for making better use of u-turn and making up for primeape's relatively lower damage output, and also because of punishing defog users with defiant. you can even go far enough to compare primeape to pawniard as a defiant user on a hazards team if you think there are good points to address. everything else regarding what primeape itself has was already covered but the idea has been laid out for you

you said you tested choice scarf primeape in around 50 games. that's good; you have usage experience you can bring in. but i'm sure that you can recall more situations than just from those calcs

i personally think, from what was already said about primeape, that b is entirely plausible but b+ would be pushing too far for it
 
On one hand, I do think that Primeape is a bit low in B-. However, I don't believe Scarf is a good reason to bring it up, since it has a somewhat poor reputation compared to its other sets.

Primeape has a couple of things going for it that Swak doesn't have. The first is the combination of Encore + U-turn, which can easily snag some momentum. While I know that Liepard is far and away the better (best) offensive user, Primeape has better offensive presence and coverage. Encore also allows Primeape to threaten Defog users by forcing them to reactivate Defiant, and since most Defoggers make good Primeape switch-ins, being forced out puts their teammates at risk from +2 attacks, or have a much harder time switching into a +2 Primeape, which isn't good news for them. Speaking of Defiant, it makes use of Defog and Intimidate users, and even the ocassional Sticky Web (but only if Ape is Scarfed). It's not the most reliable way of boosting its Attack, but it is something it has over Sawk, plus it greatly helps Choice Band Primeape from a wallbreaking perspective: its Close Combats have a chance of 2HKOing Granbull after SR, while guaranteeing it against Qwilfish, something Sawk can never hope to do without Poison Jab and Earthquake. To futher rub it in Sawk's face, Choice Band Defiant Primeape can OHKO Granbull with Gunk Shot, meaning it makes for a good lure as well. Primeape's Speed is not that much more than Sawk, but being able to reliably check Kangaskhan is pretty huge, and speedtying/outspeeding the likes of Xatu, Jynx, the Rotoms, and Vivillon are nice bonuses.

Not having Knock Off sucks though, since Primeape doesn't have an effective attack to use against Ghosts, particularly Rotom and Mismagius (unless Ape uses Punishment, which is about as efficient as running Poison Jab on Sawk, aka not very). Ghost usage is likely to increase as well, given the rise of spinners. However, U-turn can help remedy this, since it can be very easy to just get these two stuck before a Pursuit user which can promptly get rid of them. I don't know about you, but that seems a heck of a lot easier to do than whatever it is you try to do to get rid of Granbull or Qwilfish, which aren't nearly disposed of as easily.

I feel Primeape is being downplayed a lot, it is a lot more versatile than Sawk and (arguably) needs less support to do its job(s). It should at least be B, maybe even B+ because brother, the Choice Band set hits like a fuker since it can spam Close Combat more safely, and isn't walled by the same common things Choice Band Sawk is (and is significantly faster), making it a notable standalone threat in its own right.
The thing is, that besides the fact that ape can handle Granbull with gunk shot and that it has U-turn (and the defiant niche), there is really no reason to pick over sawk. Sawk has higher base attack+better overall bulk which means it can take priority moves a lot better :

252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 121-144 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 103-122 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 136-161 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 161-190 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


(my point here is to specify that it tanks priority better not that it can beat or not Gatr, specifying to avoid the usual bash and confusion -_-)

To top it all, Sawk has Moldbreaker! Weezing walls primeape absurdly well not even being able to take its black sludge to cripple it and weez can just chill in there and setup T spikes, throw a Wow for any switch ins, Pain split in case its low on hp or throw a STAB Sludge bomb which hurts and can poison your switch in. Now it may seem as if Weezing may be its only good stopper, but Ape cant really beat many other mons or has to predict really well do pull off decent damage and even then :

252 Atk Primeape Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 112-134 (31.6 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 147-174 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Primeape Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 134-158 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 127-150 (33 - 39%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Primeape Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Tangela: 84-100 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Tangela: 150-177 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Primeape Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 136-162 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


As you can see in the calcs some were done with CB and others with scarf to show that it needs CB a lot sometimes and that leaves it at a poor speed tier of base 95 and weak to every threatening flying/psychic types of the tier (Swanna, Swellow, Archeops, Scyther, Sash Kadabra Mesprit and even Dazzling Gleam Mismag to name a few)

Primeape should stay at B- or B tops imo, I personally love it and i love to use it but its too frail and power dependant to make a huge difference like Sawk does who may lack U-turn for momentum but packs Knock off which more often than not is more helpful as it can at least remove the recovery item of the switch in.
 
tennisace and ium

i guess you are both right. I wouldnt mind seeing Primeape at B, and i agree B+ is a little too much, i just find it really good in the current meta game.
Also i am sorry, i fucked up with the archeops calc, since i was not 100% sure if an Archeops could OHKO with acrobatics, after taking Ice Punch or Close Combat, which apparently it can(even without def drop from CC). Anyways, after reading what you guys have said, i dont mind it staying at B-.
 

Deej Dy

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Maybe I'll get some flack, but i dont feel Samurott is deserving of an A+ rank, I feel B+ or A- at the very most is reasonable. Sure it can be mixed, but lets be honest most people just run AQ when its mixed and I havent seen any physical rotts out of the past 30. It is outsped and revenge killed by lilligant, any not carrying hp grass is walled by toad (SD variety I'm looking at you) and Crygonal walls it even with AQ (dont get me started on audino). I don't have very many calcs at the moment, but ill likely edit some in later, I just feel when i look at the viability rankings of all the pokemon this one seems the most out of place.
It deserves B+ though because it has priority and walls some of the OP fire spammers in the tier and it has a strong hydro pump.

Edit: Perhaps raise weezing as an awesome wall esp for overused setup threats (Lilligant and both variety of slurpuff, gatr without lum) also pain split recovery is awesome and t spikes vs hyper offense teams who are unprepared.
 
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I can't agree with you Deej. Yes, Samurott gets revenge KO'd by Lilligant, but eh, so does Feraligatr, it comes with being an offensive water type. Seismitoad actually loses to the SD variant barring hax:
+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 207-244 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pretty much every Cryo variant loses to the SD set too and so does Audino, which loses to the special set with Taunt as well. This versatility is Rott's biggest asset because the sets have wildly different checks and counters for the most part. Special Samurott is a terrifying wallbreaker and SD is basically Feraligatr with Megahorn > Ice Punch, which can be better or worse depending on your team. I might support a drop, but only to A and not lower.
 
Rott is really good, and suprisingly bulky when needed. I can see it drop to A but Rott is way to good of a mon to be lowered to B+ or A-. Reasons being its versitality and incredible wallbreaking potential. It is imo more dangerous to Stall than Gatr. Megahorn is the best coverage ever, letting it muscle past defensive titans like Tangela and Mushy with ease after SD (unless you're an unlucky mofo like me). it has no save switchins, like Mortar, becasue it can rip apart your team if you miss perdict, (example: predict mixed set, switch in Audino, get rekt by SD. OR Predict SD, Switch in Toad, get rekt by mixed/special.)

EDIT: post nr.300 k
 
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Pokedots

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to C

After seeing it in the Teambuilding Competition thread, I shamelessly stole tried out New Breed's Sand HO team, and I have to say Stoutland is legitimately fantastic in sand, and is far more effective than everything on C-, in addition to not being outclasses by anything as a sweeper. With 110 Atk and a LO/CB, its Return has insane power, 2HKOing the likes of Vileplume and Seismitoad after one layer of Spikes, in addition to Weezing after a little prior damage. Its coverage gives it virtually everything it needs, having Crunch for Ghosts and Superpower for weakened Ferroseeds. It also loves Spiritomb moving up, which hard walled it. It excels against offense, outspeeding KOing virtually all offensive pokemon, and it really only needs hazard support to 6-0 them a lot of the time. Its power even lets it take on Tangela-less defensive teams (but when do you ever see one of those? ;-;).

While my description may make it seem like a based god, it has a lot of flaws that keep it out of even B rank. Its worthless outside of sand teams, as Kangaskhan is always the better choice. It hates physical walls such as Ferroseed, Tangela, and even Carbink (e: forgot to mention Steelix, which should probably move up along with Tangela). But most importantly, the sand itself that makes it the awesome sweeper that he is is also its greatest downfall. It absolutely needs Hippopotas, which in and of itself is a terrible pokemon outside of setting sand. I can't emphasize this enough; there's a great opportunity cost in running sand because you are running Hippopotas. The support it needs really keeps Stoutland from being great, but it is certainly good.

P.S. I guess
could rise too, but it is honestly near worthless
 
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Deej Dy

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Don't get me wrong, rott is good (B+ ;)), but It mainly relies on the opponents misprediction of what set it is to be effective, otherwise its SD set is outdone by gatr (faster, stronger, ice punch> megahorn in terms over coverage, also Life orb SD megahorn +2 doesnt even kill tangy)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 273-322 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's special set is good with taunt support, but it will always remain a slow 70 speed (at least slow for A+ rank offensive mon).
You have slightly convinced me with calcs on toad ( which it doesnt even outspeed without investment....) that putting it in A- rank is reasonable. But its current A+ rank is ludicrous. Archeops and Uxie are in the same category to put that in perspective
 

Ares

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Don't get me wrong, rott is good (B+ ;)), but It mainly relies on the opponents misprediction of what set it is to be effective, otherwise its SD set is outdone by gatr (faster, stronger, ice punch> megahorn in terms over coverage, also Life orb SD megahorn +2 doesnt even kill tangy)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 273-322 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's special set is good with taunt support, but it will always remain a slow 70 speed (at least slow for A+ rank offensive mon).
You have slightly convinced me with calcs on toad ( which it doesnt even outspeed without investment....) that putting it in A- rank is reasonable. But its current A+ rank is ludicrous. Archeops and Uxie are in the same category to put that in perspective
Toads generally don't run max speed and so Sam can outspeed and KO with Grass Knot. Not to mention taunt sets shit all over stall, taunting anything that tries to out stall it with recovery. Most mixed versions are pretty decent and SD set is generally done better by Gatr ill agree. That being said Samurott is an A mon, not 100% on where it should go, but no lower than A-.

(Only reason it isn't S rank with Gatr is a slight difference in bulk)
 

Shuckleking87

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Yeah I'd probably say Samurott to A. It is nice that it can run both the SD and special set to great success. The SD set really isnt "that" much inferior than feraligatr, megahorn hits hard as non stab, and knock off is a good move too. Special set with taunt is also a good stallbreaker as said by Mont. It is a little slow I guess, but you wont be outspeeding a whole lot with a lot of speed, and you wont really be outspeed by much without much speed. So you can invest in bulk. I'd probably go with ludicolo as a special attacker in a similar role though than samurott, and rather go with feraligatr as a physical spot. But Samurott is really really good, and being able to bluff a set may make the difference.
2 Things I think deserve a higher rank are Tauros to A- and Zangoose to B+
Tauros is really really underestimated imo. Has ability to run powerful and diverse attacks with life orb sheer force, can go mixed or just run fireblast to roast ferroseed, scarf to outspeed the fires, and even sub endeavor has been marvelous. It cannot ohko ghosts besides haunter, which is annoying, but I have also seen less gurdurr, which is a good stop.
Zangose is an absolute beast once it gets its toxic boost activated. Between facade, knock off and cc, nothing slower than zangoose can really handle it besides like steelix rhydon and gourgeist, and if zangoose predicts the switch into these pokes and SD, their physical wall will most likely go down. I think this was a little more of a liability when omastar and ultra spikestacking was around, as it was a lot harder to get a free switch and really wasnt worth bringing more than once due to spikes and toxic damage
 

Punchshroom

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Pokedots Actually my Carbink got wrecked by an Iron Head Stoutland at one point :P

On Samurott, I am mixed about its place in A+. On one hand, there are now more offensive checks / responses to Samurott, namely Sceptile, Lilligant, Rotom, Lanturn, Electivire, Ferroseed, and Cryogonal. On the other hand, the unpredictability factor it had in Gen 5 (that made it undoubtedly S Rank) has not faltered, and it remains one of the the most punishing Pokemon to face if one mispredicts its set. The special set makes for one of, if not the strongest unboosted Water attacker in the tier (LO Hydro Pump is stronger than CB Adaptability Basculin Waterfall), which is incredibly scary given that the majority of Water-types in the tier, such as Gatr, Shell Smashers, and Ludicolo tend to present a window of opportunity to be attacked as they set up. Holding a niche as one of the most powerful off-the-bat Water attackers is already pretty decent, but arguably Samurott's most dangerous trait is its versatility.

Good mixed stats means that special Samurott can feasibly run a physical move and still be potent with it, and it can easily afford it since its 3 move coverage is already very sufficient. It can make use of Aqua Jet, which one may recognize as the biggest reason why Costa is above Barbaracle in rankings, since it allows it to threaten faster Pokemon, most notably Fires, Archeops, and Cryogonal. It also has some really powerful physical options in Megahorn and Superpower, the former of which skewers Jynx, Ludicolo, and overconfident Quiver Dance Lilligants, while the latter can land a nasty surprise KO on Audino after it tanks a Hydro Pump, as well as doing solid damage to Ferroseed on the switch, putting it in range of a Hydro Pump + Superpower KO. To top it all off, it has Taunt as well as Knock Off, which makes wallbreaking that much easier for it. This alone makes Samurott very tricky to switch into for almost anything in the tier, and makes it very hard to determine that one tech move without being majorly damaged/crippled unless one makes some exceptional luring plays, which can be a risk in itself.

Samurott is also fairly bulky, and few weaknesses make it harder to KO than most heavy-hitters. It is slow, but still fast enough to outspeed almost all walls in the tier, and unlike powerful wallbreakers such as Archeops and Magmortar, it is notably harder for them to wear down without taking substantial damage, and again unlike the aforementioned two, weak hit-and-run attacks only do so well against Samurott until it activates Torrent, which bolters its Water attacks to a whole new level and becomes a nightmare for slower teams. Faster teams, on the other hand, often cannot OHKO Samurott with most of their attackers, and can find themselves on the receiving on of a brutally powerful Hydro Pump, which can obliterate most attackers. This is more of a personal favorite of mine, but I have enjoyed Substitute on Samurott, which greatly makes up for its speed against offensive teams. It can be used in two ways: Sub + Lefties for better longevity to waste most bulky cores (including Poliwrath and Ferroseed), or SubSalac to make most offensive teams shit their pants from speedy Torrent Surfs.

Then just when you think you've sufficiently prepared for all variants of special Samurott, out pops a goddamn physical Samurott that has you scrambling for your traditional Gatr response, but it's too late because you just let it get a second Swords Dance, or hit your switch-in with a free +2 boosted move. While it is overall less effective than Gatr as a whole due to marginally inferior stats and movepool, this Rott capitalizes on the sheer threat level of its special sets to be effective (and mind you, it is good at that): you have no reason to believe that Rott is physical off the bat, since you might let your physical Water counter get clobbered by special Samurott for no reason at all. Then when Rott reveals itself, you realize that you can no longer deal with SD Rott, since most Gatr counters only handle Gatr when Gatr is not at +4 before they switch in, or if they don't get hit on the switch with a +2 attack. In other words, the surprise factor can ocassionally make SD Rott even more dangerous than Gatr.

The meta has adapted better to Rott compared to Gen 5, but dropping from S Rank to A- or lower is pretty absurd since Rott isn't nerfed that hard. Samurott's offensive versatility is right up there with Slurpuff's, in that they can hit so very hard from either side of the spectrum. That said, still torn between A+ and A.
 
I wanna make a proposal for Bouffalant to mid B or top B if enough people agree.
Bouffalant has good bulk and can use that to be a tanky nuke with CB or come in on mons that cant touch it like Lilligant and start setting up with SubSD. Of course it has some slight issues like not having a fantastic defensive typing but without a SE stab it will be really hard to OHKO. It has enough speed to outspeed most walls too. I just think its way better than the other B- mons and putting it in the same rank as Tauros seems good to me (top b).

I would also like to propose Cacturne for B-.
Sure it has strong priority, a water immunity and good offenses on both sides and coverage and spikes. But it's really too frail and slow that it often struggles to do anything notable in a match. Cacturne's kinda mediocre typing doesnt really complement that. I also feel like it doesnt fit in the same rank as threats like Zangoose, Pangoro and Evire. I think it needs a bump down :/
 

soulgazer

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How is Grass/Dark a mediocre typing? it resists Ground-type attacks, Resist Water-types attacks (heck, Cacturne is immune to it), immunity to Psychic-type attacks, resists Dark- AND Ghost-types attack, and also resists Electric-type attacks. Grass + Dark is also really good offensively, even without having access to Knock Off, so I really don't know how you can think Cacturne's typing is bad when it offers interesting resists for offensive teams and even balance.

And lol, threats like Pangoro and Electivire? they aren't even threats and nobody prepare for them when they teambuild either as you usually get to cover those Pokemon when covering more dangerous threats. Heck even Zangoose is rarely a problem if you don't play dumb around it..

As for the 'its too slow' argument, base 55 Speed is enough to outspeed most walls, and Sucker Punch deals with faster threats. Does 50/50 happens with faster Pokemon able to play around Sucker Punch? ofcourse; that happens with most Sucker Punch users. The only real issue with Cacturne is that it doesn't have a strong n reliable Dark-type STAB named Knock Off and has below-average bulk (thankfully its typing helps with that defensively), and that's honestly not enough to make it go down lol. With that being said it should stay in B. Actually, Cacturne might even deserve to be B+ as it is actually a good Pokemon that needs more love (don't want to repeat what I said above), but as long as it doesn't drop from B I won't mind.

As for Bouffalant, I don't really like SubSD as it makes it easier for teams to deal with it since it won't be able to hit most Ghost-types; SD 3 Atk is better tbh. Also:

I just think its way better than the other B- mons and putting it in the same rank as Tauros seems good to me (top b).
Could you explain? Maybe I just didn't get what you meant, but to me its like you are comparing Tauros and Bouffalant, which do different things.

@ nozzle dw bro i suck @ grammar
 
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