CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 9 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

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nyttyn

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Wtf are you talking about. Rapid Spin is better than Defog in the post-Aegislash meta as there just aren't that many Ghosts around anymore. The only relevant Ghost in OU anymore is Gengar, with the rare Sableye thrown in. And it's not like Gengar wants to switch in on CAP 19 that much anyway.

If Defog is "too good," Rapid Spin is also too good.
Oh, is Aegislash banned in this metagame? My mistake, I had thought it wasn't. If that's the case, then yeah, full support for defog as well.
 
I personally have to vote disallow Taunt. The goal of this CAP is to "dissuade the opponent from killing CAP". Taunt takes away the option of not killing CAP, as it restricts the opponent into only moves that will kill CAP over time. We're not really afraid of getting status-ed, as our abilities and typing are picked to prevent that, so most of the moves that Taunt would stop are going to fit into the "don't kill CAP" category, which is something we should be encouraging. It scares away Chansey, which is supposed to be a set-up opportunity. It also takes a niche away from Gyarados as a Taunt user, which seems like a big no-no.
 
I personally have to vote disallow Taunt. The goal of this CAP is to "dissuade the opponent from killing CAP". Taunt takes away the option of not killing CAP, as it restricts the opponent into only moves that will kill CAP over time. We're not really afraid of getting status-ed, as our abilities and typing are picked to prevent that, so most of the moves that Taunt would stop are going to fit into the "don't kill CAP" category, which is something we should be encouraging. It scares away Chansey, which is supposed to be a set-up opportunity. It also takes a niche away from Gyarados as a Taunt user, which seems like a big no-no.
Because of the direction we've gone with CAP 19 thus far, Taunt actually does, in a number of cases, dissuade the opponent from KO'ing CAP 19. Pokemon that might otherwise have been able to handle Gyarados by using non-attacking moves (e.g. WoW or Roar Heatran) are left as complete setup bait. Ordinarily, in a one on one situation, Taunt encourages an offensive response by necessity. However, at no point since the Concept Assessment has CAP 19 been designed with a view primarily towards one on one matchups in isolation; all of CAP's one on ones are considered in the context of a Gyarados waiting in the wings ready to setup and sweep. If CAP 19 Taunts a Pokemon that needs its non-attacking moves to handle Gyarados, that Pokemon can't afford to KO CAP 19 while Gyarados is still in play. Taunt, as Vann Accessible said on the previous page, is pretty much the most pro-concept move that we can give CAP 19. Taunt denies the opponent the opportunity to do anything but attack or switch out, and the pairing of CAP 19 and Gyarados dissuades the opponent from going for the KO even when there is no other option apart from switching. I would sooner see Taunt listed as a Required move than a Disallowed move; I'd personally vote for allow Taunt.
 
I'd say YES PLEASE for Taunt. In fact, I'd go so far as to make it required.
So we've been talking for weeks about screening the ways CAP can be killed to ensure that it can only be killed in ways that are advantageous to us and our preferred DDer; namely, we want a choice-locked EQ if at all possible. What Taunt allows us to do is to take away the ways in which the opponent can circumvent attacking CAP directly, namely spamming status hoping to catch MGyara on the switch, wearing down CAP with a burn or Leech Seed, setting up on CAP or stalling CAP for weather damage/LO recoil. Ferrothorn, who can otherwise deal with both CAP and MGyara, is shut down by Taunt, and we gave CAP such a low HP stat that Chansey can kill it with Seismic Toss. Taunt forces the opponent to use an offensive mon to deal with CAP, and given that we've spent the past four hundred years tailoring CAP to have counters that are set up on by MGyara, that should be the goal.
 
Because of the two-pronged threat of CAP19 and the setup sweeper out back, I'd say allow Taunt. It lets us play mind games with our opponent, forcing them to either switch out to something that hard counters/checks CAP19 or give in to fainting CAP19 and suffering the setup from Gyarados.

In addition, I'm also in agreement that other methods of Status Prevention should be allowed. Allow Safeguard and Rapid Spin, to be precise.
While the latter clears the lesser-seen Toxic Spikes, again, it provides a safe setup for our set-up sweeper by removing entry hazards.

Have status-inducing moves (besides Toxic and Toxic Spikes, of course) been discussed yet?
I'd really like to point out that the threat of being hit by status does invoke a kill-or-get-killed response, yet it makes the player realize that killing CAP brings in our set-up sweeper (in the case the team has no blob or Heal Bell user).
Inducing status does help us in the way that our set-up sweeper has safety in setting up.

However, if status-inducing moves outside of poison-induction are too generically good, and can thus be seen as anti-concept, then dispute as you like.
 

Deck Knight

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The three moves I think most critical to this CAP's success:

Allow Taunt: Taunt prevents out defensive checks from using their status moves on M-Gyara and other DD Pokemon. They still switch in and hard counter CAP, but they are then forced to either attack directly or double-switch.

Allow Safeguard: On the defensive end, Safeguard prevents statuses from affecting M-Gyara until after it sets up. CAP is already largely immune to status, so it can absorb it, and support in this specific way. It also prevents Spore from hitting CAP, although things like Breloom have no reason to switch in (Amoonguss, however...)

Allow Whirlpool / Infestation: I think partial trapping is key for controlling potential matchups CAP will face, and ensuring we lock in targets M-Gyara can set up on. I actually like Infestation more than Whirlpool since it hits everything and also hits fewer of our counters for decent initial damage.

Less key moves:

Allow Thunder Wave: Discharge was pro-concept, so there's no reason Thunder Wave wouldn't be.

Allow Stealth Rock: It's true there are already a lot of SR setters in OU, , but CAP's typing is unique and M-Gyara likes the residual damage on opponents more than it hates the initial switchin.

Allow Memento: Memento virtually guarantees a Gyara setup by virtue of wiping the opponent's offenses. Combined with the other top moves, it's a great pro-concept move for CAP.

Disallow Rapid Spin: Aside from being very generically good, Rapid Spin does not assist in either CAP's sweep or M-Gyara's, and is counterproductive given CAP can act as a check to Gyarados. It's true most DDers hate rocks, but that doesn't mean it's a proper role for CAP to mitigate them.

Disallow Destiny Bond: Even when DBond works all it does is force a double-switch that may or may not be favorable. I know the concept started out talking this move up, but it just doesn't operate in thw ay we want.
 

alexwolf

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Taunt and Safeguard are allowed. Pro-concept moves that allow Mega Gyarados to set up easier and don't interfere with our counters, not much to talk about here.

Thunder Wave is allowed, we already allowed Thunder and Discharge, so it's pretty obvious that we don't mind the CAP having a way of inflicting paralysis.

Toxic Spikes, Spikes, and Sticky Web are disallowed. Sticky Web is too impact-full of a move that will derail us from our goal and will potentially turn the CAP into a dedicated user of Sticky Web, that doesn't care about putting the opponent into a lose-lose scenario if the opponent chooses to KO it. Toxic Spikes and Spikes have the danger of messing with our checks and counters, are largely irrelevant in OU, and also have a danger of derailing us from our goal.

Healing Wish and Memento are disallowed because the concept is to force the opponent into a lose / lose situation, not make the perfect teammate for Mega Gyarados. Mega Gyarados is being used as a way to keep the CAP alive, and a Mega Gyarados sweep is not the end goal of our concept. Healing Wish and Memento don't leave any choice at all to the opponent, they just give to Mega Gyarados a (extra) chance to set up and sweep.

Will-O-Wisp is disallowed because it fucks up the CAP's checks and counters.

All boosting moves that raise SpA and Defense are disallowed because they all interfere with our checks and counters list. Set up moves such as Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, and Agility still need some discussion though.

Also, i included some more required moves that all or almost all fully evolved Pokemon have thanks to srk1214, which are: Substitute, Protect, Attract, Swagger, Confide, and Double Team.

I still want more discussion about Stealth Rock, Defog, and Rapid Spin, especially the latter two. Those are some of the best support moves in OU, and giving them to an already very potent CAP is no small deal. We should see past the obvious ''all of those moves help Mega Gyarados'', and try to imagine how the CAP with those moves would fit in OU, and what its impact would be. For example, does the CAP beat the majority of the common SR users? If yes is the answer to this question, then it might not be a good idea to give to the CAP Defog or Rapid Spin, because then the CAP would be a great attacker, a great check and pivot to many Pokemon, and an excellent supporter, which could end up being too much for OU to handle, or too centralizing. To give you an example, Latias has a similar blend of power, bulk, useful typing, and supportive abilities, but is easier to wall, easier to get rid of (Pursuit weak), and has an arguably worse defensive typing. Of course it has Recover, better Speed, and different resistances, but you get the issue i am trying to highlight (i hope).

Stealth Rock is a smaller issue because its distribution is much wider, so competition between SR setters is much bigger, but we should still examine how the CAP fares against the common Defog and Rapid Spin users, to see if it would be a great SR setter or not, which combined with its other traits, could potentially make the CAP broken.

So, here are a few important question for you guys to answer:
  • Does the CAP beat the majority of the common Stealth Rock users?
  • Does the CAP have great synergy with most Stealth Rock weak Pokemon?
  • Does the CAP beat the majority of the common Defog and Rapid Spin users?
If yes is the answer to any of the first two questions, then you might have to think again before suggesting to allow Defog / Rapid Spin, or explain why the CAP would be manageable even with those moves. Similarly, if the answer to the third question is yes, you should do the same about Stealth Rock.
 

dwarfstar

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I'm assuming CAP runs a straightforward offensive set (max/max Timid with Life Orb; primary moves Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave) for the purpose of these calculations.

Does the CAP beat the majority of the common Defog and Rapid Spin users?

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def CAP19: 244-291 (93.4 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)

CAP loses to offensive Starmie the vast majority of the time. If Starmie comes in on CAP for a sacrificial Rapid Spin, it gets destroyed by Thunderbolt, but in any other case, it outspeeds and smashes CAP. If that happens, we keep Starmie from spinning for a turn, so CAP succeeds in keeping SR up for a little while. CAP gets into a war of attrition with defensive Starmie, which outspeeds and uses Reflect Type on the first turn to avoid getting 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt. Starmie can't touch CAP without giving up Reflect Type in favor of Psyshock, so CAP has plenty of opportunities to switch out to something that can smack Starmie around, but that doesn't prevent the spin, and Starmie's Recover allows it to outlast repeated Sludge Wave assaults in the event that CAP stays in. Regardless, CAP doesn't have a great matchup against Starmie.
Excadrill beats the hell out of CAP, but being forced to attack or be 2HKO'd by HP-Fire means it can't afford to spin, so we'd keep our rocks up in this case (unless we're in a sandstorm). Either way, Gyarados gets a switch-in opportunity.
Latios and Latias both beat CAP 1v1. Mandibuzz, Skarmory, and Zapdos are all beaten handily.

CAP's matchup against the OU hazard removers is fairly evenly split. I'm inclined to say allow Stealth Rock, but I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other.

Does the CAP beat the majority of the common Stealth Rock users?

CAP is unable to do serious damage to Tyranitar unless we opt for the otherwise-subpar HP-Fighting over HP-Fire, and Earthquake lands a guaranteed OHKO. Mamoswine also beats us handily unless we end up having Flash Cannon, but even that can't OHKO unless we have Stealth Rock set up (in which case it has a 62.5% chance to do so). Overall, not a great matchup for CAP. Hippowdon also beats CAP pretty handily. Garchomp is completely safe unless we're running HP-Ice (and SR Chomps generally have Focus Sash anyway); the same is true for Landorus-T. Heatran easily tanks anything we can throw at it bar the suboptimal HP-Ground, and even then, the standard specially defensive set avoids the 2HKO about half the time unless it switches in on rocks or has taken prior damage.
On the flip side, CAP crushes Skarmory and Clefable, and does the same to Ferrothorn if we have HP-Fire. Mega-Aerodactyl can successfully get rocks up, but gets destroyed by Thunderbolt, so it's just going to end up fleeing (or smacking CAP with Earthquake, if it's carrying that).

Does the CAP have great synergy with most Stealth Rock weak Pokemon?

Most of the OU-relevant Rock-weak mons are Flying-type, so CAP has decent synergy with them, being able to easily tank the Electric attacks thrown their way and take a stray Ice Beam or Stone Edge once in a while. In return, they can all switch in on the Earthquakes and Earth Powers targeting CAP. CAP loses to or stalemates more Stealth Rock users than it beats most of the time, and it's got at relatively good defensive synergy with most of the SR-weak Pokemon in the tier (I know I haven't gone into offensive synergy yet; I'll come back and edit this post in a little while when I've thought about that and I'm not swamped with homework). I'm currently on the fence, so I'll reserve judgment on Rapid Spin and Defog until I've considered offensive synergy.
 

Deck Knight

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Can I get a clarification on the buffing of defense move bans? Does this mean Acid Armor, Reflect, and Light Screen are all disallowed, or is it just Reflect because LS doesn't boost "Defense" and Acid Armor can't be pseudo-passed?
 

alexwolf

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Can I get a clarification on the buffing of defense move bans? Does this mean Acid Armor, Reflect, and Light Screen are all disallowed, or is it just Reflect because LS doesn't boost "Defense" and Acid Armor can't be pseudo-passed?
It means any kind of buff Deck Knight, and i meant only those that buff your Defense, not Special Defense, sry for not making it more clear.
 

ginganinja

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Not keen on Agility (and to a lesser extent Calm Mind), because the move does nothing to put the opponent into a "lose/lose" situation (besides giving this pokemon the ability to clean sweep through offensive teams). Assuming this CAP gets a Storm Drain boost (and most of the pokemon it can get this off do next to nothing to it), then you can pop Agility and end up with a +1 SpA +2 Spd sweeper, thats just going to bulldoze through offensive teams. Not to mention, it technically goes against the spirit of some of the pokemon of our checks and counters list, since now half of the "checks" flat out lose once CAP gets a speed boost. I'm making this case specifically for Agility, due to the double speed boost effectively shutting down any Scarfers people want to run, so tentatively ok with Dragon Dance (which is effectively just +1 speed move on a 100 base speed pokemon) but I'll leave that up to everyone else.

Calm Mind boosts your already decent Special Defence to high levels, as well as giving you a +2 boost if you managed to trigger Storm Drain. I guess its not as huge of an issue since we removed all recovery bar Rest but its still troubling at the ease that this CAP can really boost its attack power which we specifically wanted to avoid.
 

alexwolf

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I am giving a 30 hour warning. Come on guys, let's see some thoughts on the ''Need Dicussion'' moves, i wouldn't like to decide those on myself.
 
Trick Room seems to go completely against what we're trying to accomplish. All three of our proposed sweepers rely on Dragon Dance, which would make Trick Room extremely counterproductive and harmful to the concept.
Agility would ruin a large portion of our checks and counters list, so I believe it should definitely be disallowed. The same goes for Tailwind.
Both Gyarados and Charizard benefit greatly from weather inducing moves, so I believe that these shouldn't be explicitly banned.
All three of our sweepers are badly hurt by Stealth Rock. I think Rapid Spin or Defog should definitely be allowed to combat this.
I feel that Encore accomplishes mostly the same thing that Taunt does in practice, so it should be allowed.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I guess I'll try to squeeze a post in here on some of my basic thoughts on moves I haven't seen a ton of discussion on. Sorry if these thoughts are a bit rushed.

Whirlpool / Infestation: These moves seem to have garnered a lot of support. And while I do agree that they help Gyarados out a lot, there's still this voice in the back of my head telling me these are anti-concept. If we end up trapping a mon, we're essentially giving them two options: either stall out the trapped effect, or try to kill CAP19. And the concept is making them not want to kill us (and I think this move just makes it more likely). So, I'm iffy on these moves. However, I would like to suggest that Mean Look and Block to flat out disallowed, since they can't even be stalled out of and only promote the opponent to attack us. This concept seems to be about letting the opponent have the choice to KO us, but to try to get them to choose not to, after all.

Attack / Special Defense / Speed boosting moves: No harm in allowing us to boost our attack, since it's pitifully low. I'm actually not opposed to moves that *only* boost special defense (as in Amnesia/Light Screen; things like Calm Mind/Quiver Dance are already banned since we don't allow Special Attack boosting moves). Most of our counters are physically offensive earthquakers, so boosting our special defense at the cost of a valuable moveslot doesn't seem to hurt our direction too much. However, I think that having speed boosting moves might not go too well since our partner(s) already are meant to set up and boost their speed. If CAP19 can boost his own speed, it might make it more likely for him to abuse counters and find new, incredibly offensive roles that go way beyond our intentions. So, yes to Attack / Special Defense boosting moves, but no to Speed boosting moves.

Tailwind: Essentially I'm against Tailwind for the same reason I'm against speed boosting moves.

Trick Room: Nothing is ever going to use Trick Room as well as Fidgit in singles. CAP19 has 100 base speed, which would mean it would take a hit setting up the move (TR has negative priority), and then likely have to take a second hit if it gutsy enough to stay in afterwards. For starters, this is arguably a bad move on CAP19 since it can't be abused by CAP19 or his partners. However, since CAP19 is fast, if TR gets up is does actually prevent the opponent from wanting to KO CAP19 right away if there's a TR abuser on CAP19's team (potentially a pro-concept move if Gyarados wasn't glued on so much)... But realistically, this is a pretty bad move on CAP19 and so I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.

Weather Inducing moves: CAP19 could make good use of rain dance, which helps both him out and Gyarados. I'd say allow Rain Dance, and the other moves don't do too much harm either.

Roar / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail: I don't think CAP19 should get any of these moves. Generally, players will want to KO a shuffler, and the negative priority of these moves just encourages the opponent to try to KO CAP19 even more.

Haze: Haze is a pretty darn good move to be used by a fairly fast CAP19. However, it does allow CAP19 to stop other things that have already set up, which then let's Gyarados have a shot at busting through them. Overall, I'm in favor of Haze.

Perish Song: Not a fan. It encourages switching, which in turn prevents KOing I guess, but only to a small degree. It also encourages CAP19 to switch after 3 turns, which may result in a double switch in the end that doesn't accomplish anything for Gyarados. So, I don't think Persih Song should be allowed.

Clear Smog: Pretty much in favor of Clear Smog for the same reasons I'm in favor of Haze.
 
Allow Defog and Rapid Spin. Gyarados has a tough time coming in on Stealth Rocks and there aren't an overwhelming number of spinners/defoggers that already support the team.

Disallow Stealth Rocks. The Gyarados team already has plenty of viable Stealth Rock setters, so we don't add any utility to the team that way, and Rock setting is a quick way to start completing sweeps by himself.

Allow Encore. If Taunt wasn't hideously oppressive and anti-concept, this certainly isn't.

Disallow Destiny Bond and Perish Song. We said back in part 2 this wasn't what we wanted CAP doing.

Allow Whirlpool / Infestation. It gives us a way to get away from unacceptable counters without becoming an incredible pivot in the process.

Allow Attack boosting moves, disallow Special Defense and Speed boosting moves. After one Speed Boost we counter nearly all of the Pokemon on the counter list. Most of these counters are Specially-oriented as well, so Special Defense boosting moves could be in the same boat.

Disallow Tailwind. That's clearly too strong. He goes from setting up very select Pokemon and forcing build-arounds to setting up everything and being something everybody has to run.

Allow Trick Room. I'm not sure what we gain from that, since even with minimum stat investment, we're too fast to us it viably, but it wouldn't hurt to have it.

Allow weather inducing moves. The only one he can use viably is Rain Dance, and even that sets up a ridiculous number of Water monsters that would normally not even be able to look in his direction to outspeed with Swift swim and take him out, so it's not even that safe for him to put it up.

Allow Roar and Whirlwind. As long as he doesn't have Stealth Rocks, he doesn't have a good way to make this oppressive, and it can serve a similar function to Whirlpool or Infestation. I have some reservations about Dragon Tail, as we don't want to encourage a move Gardevoir can get in free on, but I imagine that's fine as well.

Allow Haze and Clear Smog. Pokemon shouldn't be allowed to set up on CAP. That's just common sense.
 

Bughouse

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Defog
Rapid Spin
Stealth Rock

I know ^these are the 3 most important things to discuss, but I am torn and don't particularly want to influence the decision on them.

Encore - Allow, this is a good move to punish something like Excadrill that just used Rapid Spin and not too much else. Without recovery, I can't see this move being too good on any set.

Destiny Bond - Just like Memento and Healing Wish it seems a good thing to Disallow.

Whirlpool/Infestation - Allow, as long as Perish Song is As Perish Song is disallowed. Pick one.

Attack / Special Defense / Speed boosting moves - No need for any of them, disallow.

Tailwind - Allow. Fits in nicely with many wallbreakers and sweepers that could come in after CAP 19's demise.

Trick Room - Disallow. CAP 19 itself is fast and nothing that we'd be setting up after CAP 19 faints is particularly slow.

Weather Inducing moves - Sure, Allow Rain Dance, since it benefits Gyarados. I'm not concerned with Rain Dance weakening Excadrill's ability to check CAP 19 because Tyranitar can still easily come in on CAP 19 and unless CAP 19 is running HP Water (lol) what is it even going to do to Excadrill? HP Fire is weakened in Rain.

Roar / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail - Disallow, I'd prefer Haze below. Phazing allows us to put up hazards and screw with every Ground on the switch in.

Haze - Allow, niche option against SD Scizor or Clefable with a crapload of CMs and not much else. We can already just kill BD Azu and CM Keldeo. We should be able to kill NP Thundurus. Most everything that sets up either just beats CAP 19 or just loses already.

Perish Song - Allow, as long as Whirlpool/Infestation is disallowed. Pick one.

Clear Smog - Allow. For CAP 19's purposes it's actually probably inferior to Haze, which I also said to allow.
 
Well, on the OU list of Pokemon, the following get Stealth Rock: Bisharp, Chansey, Clefable, Diancie, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp(mega), Gliscor, Heatran, Landorus, Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Mawile, Pinsir(mega), Skarmory, Terrakion, Tyranitar(mega). The majority of these are Rock, Ground or Steel types. In fact, only three are not.
¸
Meanwhile, using the same tier restrictions, the following Pokemon gets Rapid Spin: Excadrill. Literally the only spinner in OU is Excadrill. As for Defog, the following get it: Charizard(mega), Dragonite, Gliscor, Latias, Latios, Mandibuzz, Scizor(mega), Skarmory, Staraptor, Togekiss and Zapdos. On this list, only three are not Flying or Levitating.

If CAP19 was to get Stealth Rock, it would be the only Electric type in OU or CAP with it. It can thus beat all but five of the Defoggers. Of them, Gyarados beats four, and the last has no way of harming the CAP. Meanwhile, it beats three spinners reliably, and Gyarados can easily take out the remaining four spinners. This would leave the enemy with only four Pokemon that can both consistently remove CAP19`s hazards and take it out. This is pro-concept, as the opponent cannot kill the CAP lest it be setup bait for Gyarados, but cannot let it live because it would force it to continuously use Rapid Spin to block the rocks, or let them stay up. Eventually, the opponent will either have to KO the CAP, allowing you to set up on them with Gyarados, or Taunt it, which is good because that makes one of the solutions not killing it. It`s also not overpowered, as it`s simple enough to stop the CAP from setting up rocks with one of its counters, but this would leave you vulnerable to Gyarados. As such, I say: Allow Stealth Rock.

If CAP 19 was to get Rapid Spin, a good portion of the SR setters are potential counters. However, if the CAP had Rapid Spin, it would force any would-be SR setter to KO the CAP, which is obviously against the concept, because you don't want the opponent to be forced to KO the CAP. Thus, Disallow Rapid Spin. However, while Defog is in the same boat, because it can be stopped by Taunt, it doesn't force you to kill the CAP to achieve your goal. Therefore, Allow Defog.
 
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jas61292

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I believe that srk is correct when he said that Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin and Defog are the three most important things to discuss. These are hugely important moves in the metagame, that could greatly shape how CAP19 functions. With that said, my personal views are that we should disallow all three.

Stealth Rock is a very distracting move the the purpose of our concept, in my opinion. The main reason for this is Excadrill and other Spinners and Defoggers that can beat us 1 on 1 easily. Our goal, as a concept, is to deter the opponent from KOing us. However, it is designed to do so, not by making the opponent just have a good option by not KOing, but rather because it is risky what would happen if it did score the KO. If we use Stealth Rock, then an opponent with an Excadrill or other like Pokemon has to chose between Spinning (or Defogging) or KOing, earning practically the same results either way, as Gyarados can come in on the Spin (or Defog) quite easily. When we force the opponent into such a decision, the risk is no longer really from KOing or not. It is from prediction, and that is not really what we want for this concept. There are enough Pokemon where this is the case that I don't think it is wise to allow CAP19 to set up SR itself.

As for hazard removal, in the current metagame, Rapid Spin is just a better move than Defog, imo, since there are not many good ghosts, and it does not remove your own hazards. With that said, Hazard removal is absolutely pivotal in many battles, and to a prepared team, letting the opponent remove your hazards may be far worse than letting Gyarados get a free turn. As such, it becomes less of a decision for many players if they want to KO it or not. However, that alone is not a huge issue. The big problem is just how generally distracting it is. It is very uniquely typed for a Spinner, and would fit in well all over the place. Furthermore, so long as the opponent has their SR setter, few people would be willing to let their spinner be KOd, which is kinda anti concept. Defog is in a similar boat. While it is definitely weaker here due to taking away your own hazards, the team function is still nearly identical, promoting a style of play that I do not really believe is good for the concept.
 
Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Defog.
If permitted I can envision CAP19 would not struggle to fire off any of them, because of this great defensive typing it should be forcing a switch or at least surviving a neutral hit, if something was gutsy enough to stay in on it. This makes it pretty much guaranteed to either remove rocks or set them up.

The most common defog pokemon are part flying CAP's electric STAB is going to do a number on most of them. In fact there is only really defog Gliscor that can effectively wall CAP providing it knows it's not carrying HP Ice. Other defog pokemon worth noting that survive at least two or more hits from CAP are Lati@s, Flygon and Mew. So there are only 5 pokemon that can defog rocks AND take hits from CAP, and four of those are at the most 2HKO'd if we carry HP Ice, which kind of likely to be honest. In effect, CAP can basically KO most defoggers and set rocks back up with ease.
As for opposing Rapid Spin support, there are only three worth mentioning in my opinion, Excadrill, Donphan, and Starmie. Excadrill is immune to both STABs, 3HKO'd by HP Ice, 2HKO'd by HP Fire but would probably chase CAP out of play. AV Donphan is a similar story, 2HKO'd by HP Ice and scares CAP out with Earthquake. Finally Starmie is faster than CAP and may scare it out with psychic STAB, however CAP can survive and retaliate with a OHKO so it's even a little bit shaky. If Stealth Rock is permitted a cookie cutter set may well be Stealth Rock/Thunderbolt/Sludge Wave/HP Ice. Leaving very few pokemon that can remove rocks and survive while against CAP.
Of course, the opponent would probably switch to something that'll force CAP out in order to get their hazard remover in play. All this is racking up residual damage from switching leading to an easier Gyarados sweep. Now to be fair, I'm not 100% sure if this is anti-concept, but if CAP gets rocks up, it'll be a struggle for the opponent to remove them.

Now, if we give it SR we should definitely disallow Rapid Spin. Defog is not such a problem since it would remove the hazards that CAP itself sets up, and setting its own rocks up again would be an extra turn of doing no damage. However, I have to say I greatly dislike the idea of CAP getting both Stealth Rock and hazard removal. It could cause an even greater deviation from the concept. Rock setters and removers are generally removed by the opponent as soon as possible, or even conserved by the user. The latter would especially be the case with CAP's defensive typing, so as Jas said above move, it would be distracting from the concept.

I'm wavering on suggesting we disallow, stealth rocks, rapid spin and defog.
And we definitely shouldn't allow both rocks and removal.
 
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Ununhexium

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Defog
Rapid Spin

I'm grouping thses two together because they serve the same purpose. I say we should allow them just for the sake of getting Gyarados in more easily. They don't even do anything wrong for the concept because no Pokemon they would bring in makes it harder for Gyarados to set up except for Thunderbolt Gengar.

Stealth Rock

I don't really care about this one very much. It's, in my opinion, neither really pro or anti concept. I'd say allow it and let the movepool builders decide.

Encore

I say allow this one. It makes prediction for the Gyarados user much easier. If we lock the opponent into something like Earthquake or Rapid Spin (or something like Focus Blast or Psychic in Landorus' case). It just makes the mega/do not mega decision easier.

Destiny Bond

I mean this is technically pro concept but if we take down the opponent we don't get the free switch. I would take this to a vote or disallow.

Whirlpool / Infestation

YES. Especially with Encore, this could cause major problems for the opponent.

Attack / Special Defense / Speed boosting moves

Disallow these. Attack boosting does nothing except flavor (and bad flavor at that), Special Defense doesn't accomplish much, and Speed turns it into more of a sweeper.

Tailwind

Same thing as Speed boosting moves.

Trick RoomRoom

If we're planning on using a Dragon Dance sweeper after CAP dies I see no point in this.

Weather Inducing moves

I say allow. If we are trying to aid a Gyarados sweep, rain could be helpful. Other than that, there are no reasons to use weather and its not anti concept so its okay in my opinion.

Roar / Whirlwind / Dragon Tail

I say disallow these. Its basically just a less niche Haze which in my opinion should be allowed. This also allows us to rack up hazard damage and annoy Ground-types so disallow them.

Haze

I don't see a problem with this so allow.

Perish SongSong

Only allow if Whirlpool / Infestation is disallowed. Personally I like Whirlpool / Infestation better so I would vote disallow.

Clear Smog

Yeah Haze but even more niche. Allow.
 
Stealth Rock
I am going go with my gut here. And say yes. I can see this fitting into the concept. Let's say that we are battling a guy with a Rapid Spin Starmie. So, this Starmie spins away our rocks while we switch in our CAP. Now Starmie can either go for a KO, bringing a Mega Gyrados, who can now set up. Or it can switch, or use a status move or something, thus letting the CAP bring back the rocks. Similar situations apply for other spinners. When it comes to defoggers, it is a bit more complicated. Mew, Zapdos and the lati twins are the only defoggers with a chance of hazard removing. And the thing is, it may happen like this:
The Defogger uses Defog
CAP uses strongest available STAB move
The defogger uses a Recover clone
CAP uses Stealth Rock.
Continues for a while (in theory)

So you can see where this fits. To be honest, I am a bit loose in my support for Steath Rock and I could very easily change my mind, but I suppose I should give my current opinion on it.
 
could wish be an option for this pokemon? i feel like recover gets pooped on because its too reliable which is understandable, but wish is a move which can provide the same effect over time, not just to the cap for a recovery move to supplement its bulk, but also for a switch in once the pokemon eventually faints. isnt the point of this pokemon to be a great support partner while also letting its effects linger after it's gone? what move could better complement this?
 
At this point, I'm leaning against allowing Defog / Rapid Spin / Stealth Rock. I haven't really seen an argument that they would be good for what we're trying to do in particular, and entry hazard control helps a wide variety of strategies. There are plenty of staple Pokemon for entry hazard control, anyway, so it's not like we'd even be solving a pressing issue facing teams trying to go for a Dragon Dance sweep.

On boosting moves: I'm not sure that any of them will be very good, except Sunny Day / Rain Dance and the Speed boosting moves, and even then, there's only one Pokemon in OU that even viably uses Agility / Rock Polish. Though, CAP 19 might actually benefit a lot from +2 Speed like Landorus does, and it's probably safer to ban it. Tailwind is another matter, though. I've argued a few times now that temporary field effects are pro-concept due to the need to wait them out rather than give the wrong Pokemon an immediate free switch-in.

Haze and Clear Smog are great considering we established that stopping a opponent's sweep is pro-concept. I don't see the big deal with shuffling moves, though. If CAP 19 could viably run a defensive set and put some severe hurt on its checks and counters, then maybe they'd be a problem. However, I don't really see that happening.

Destiny Bond is pretty much established as being against what we've been going for.

The rest of the moves (Encore, Whirlpool / Infestation, Trick Room, Perish Song) are just bad and stuff.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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yoloschnarff said:
could wish be an option for this pokemon? i feel like recover gets pooped on because its too reliable which is understandable, but wish is a move which can provide the same effect over time, not just to the cap for a recovery move to supplement its bulk, but also for a switch in once the pokemon eventually faints. isnt the point of this pokemon to be a great support partner while also letting its effects linger after it's gone? what move could better complement this?
While I agree that Wish is much less reliable than recover and the such, the idea of a low base HP mon 1) using Wish and then immediately fainting and 2) having the Wish heal a large portion of the incoming mon's HP isn't super reliable itself. Part of me thinks that more often than not, something that uses Wish will want to switch to a teammate than just predict/hope for an immediate death to get a free switch in to whatever needs healing... If this makes sense. Overall though, I agree Wish is much less of a problem than recover, but it isn't fully in line with the concept. It has uses in some situations where it could be, but more often than not I think it encourages switching out... ...Not to mention Wish passing with such low base HP isn't very good to begin with...

I also purposely chose not to talk about SR/Defog/Rapid Spin in my last post because I felt the other moves hadn't received enough attention. However, for now I'm just going to say very briefly I do not like the idea of SR and Rapid Spin and I think Defog is iffy as best. As jas pointed out, SR potentially gives us free switch potential to Gyarados when faced with Excadrill, and this switching might circumvent the actual concept that involves fainting. Sure, there's no way that we can prevent strategic switch and we shouldn't even try to prevent such a thing. However, if we allow moves that give great potential to switching in Gyarados without the risk of fainting in the process, then the concept might go under-explored. And Rapid Spin in general is just a good move all around, and people try to preserve/keep their hazard removers alive (probably more so than the average Pokemon) if they know the opponent has hazards.
 
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