See, what I don't understand about the "It's not a complex ban because it's broken on 100% of its users" is: hypothetically, if Smeargle hadn't been banned because QDPass and SmashPass were not enough to push it, would that make V-create not broken because it's only so on 50% of its users? If the answer is yes, wouldn't that make the ban actually complex, and it's not currently so by mere circumstance? I find that position hard to defend, really. Now if you said V-create is uncompetitive (I disagree with this), it'd be a different scenario.
I'm not even opposed to complex bans per se, but trying to mask this one as a simple ban just because everyone thinks complex banning = heresy is lying to yourselves, imo. No offense meant.
And although I hate the expression "slippery slope" (I think it and overrated should be banned from the English language), I have to ask this: in the theorical (and by that I mean unlikely) case that Victini was proven broken because of Bolt Strike and/or Blue Flare, 1) Would you ban Victini as a whole or the moves, since they're broken on 100% of the users, and 2) If you attempted the first option, how would you qualm the masses asking for a BS / BF ban because you've already set the precedent?
I understand Victini being broken without V-create is less likely than Victini dropping to RU—unless the rodent lovers can keep its usage up—since both the CB and the mixed sets are handled fine by dedicated physical walls, and Tini isn't much better against offense (although not being at -1 on the RK makes Pursuit games much more of a 50/50 than before), but I still think these concerns should be addressed before giving more thought into banning V-create. I'm not trying to be a smartass by arguing these points and I don't doubt anyone can come and say I'm completely off base (it wouldn't be the first time), it's just that I think what RT said about V-create being a scapegoat to try and keep Tini (I can't blame you, it's a disgustingly cute rodent) is precisely on point, and due to that I wanna see how you pro V-create ban guys defend their position. Always with respect, obviously.
Edit: I'm not even entirely sold that Victini is broken, either. I have yet to define which side of the line it sits, since you can't totally dismiss the SR and Pursuit weaknesses, but neither can you say those alone are enough to keep it, considering hazard removal is easy and we can't really advise every team to run one of CB Duggy / Pursuit user just for Tini.
I'm not even opposed to complex bans per se, but trying to mask this one as a simple ban just because everyone thinks complex banning = heresy is lying to yourselves, imo. No offense meant.
And although I hate the expression "slippery slope" (I think it and overrated should be banned from the English language), I have to ask this: in the theorical (and by that I mean unlikely) case that Victini was proven broken because of Bolt Strike and/or Blue Flare, 1) Would you ban Victini as a whole or the moves, since they're broken on 100% of the users, and 2) If you attempted the first option, how would you qualm the masses asking for a BS / BF ban because you've already set the precedent?
I understand Victini being broken without V-create is less likely than Victini dropping to RU—unless the rodent lovers can keep its usage up—since both the CB and the mixed sets are handled fine by dedicated physical walls, and Tini isn't much better against offense (although not being at -1 on the RK makes Pursuit games much more of a 50/50 than before), but I still think these concerns should be addressed before giving more thought into banning V-create. I'm not trying to be a smartass by arguing these points and I don't doubt anyone can come and say I'm completely off base (it wouldn't be the first time), it's just that I think what RT said about V-create being a scapegoat to try and keep Tini (I can't blame you, it's a disgustingly cute rodent) is precisely on point, and due to that I wanna see how you pro V-create ban guys defend their position. Always with respect, obviously.
Edit: I'm not even entirely sold that Victini is broken, either. I have yet to define which side of the line it sits, since you can't totally dismiss the SR and Pursuit weaknesses, but neither can you say those alone are enough to keep it, considering hazard removal is easy and we can't really advise every team to run one of CB Duggy / Pursuit user just for Tini.