Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[boo836]

I'm certain the amount of games lost will be nothing to the amount of games I'd lose because Taillow became set up fodder. Taillow should not be a primary priority user, so it really shouldn't matter.

 

[Vileman]

Are you guys really discussing this much about a mon that none of you would probably use in any serious battle ._.

 

[blarajan]

Taillow fucking rocks don't hate. When it comes to the tiny swallow, I say take as many pages of backwards close minded bullshit reasoning as you need to discuss.

 

[Wobbyble]

wat happened to boomburst tailow no one uses it anymore

 

[doomsday doink]

wat happened to boomburst tailow no one uses it anymore

I hope you're being sarcastic, because the majority of Taillows nowadays are running either a Life Orb mixed attacking set with Boomburst / Brave Bird / U-turn / Hidden Power [Coverage] or the standard Choice Specs set. I haven't run into a Status Orb Guts set in quite a while, even on the ladder. Although it may be just as threatening, Guts Taillow seems to have become a rarity in the current metagame as opposed to the specially-oriented varient.

 

[Wobbyble]

no I just haven't seen tailow at all in like the last 40 ladder matches I've played

 

[Superpowerdude]

Regarding toxic orb tailow I find that because of rocks and toxic damage wearing it down it is eventually easy to pick off with weak priority like Aqua Jet and Mach Punch

But of course this set has it's advantages (really strong attacks) I just thought I would mention that since I think no one did


Also you should probably change the meta game topic to "Tailow: Band or Orb?" Lmao

 

[Shrug]

I'm going to semi-seriously attempt to get Abra suspected the next time we can it sounds retarded but there's sort of a point to it

First it centralizes the meta because you can no longer run setup sweepers (besides Shellder but i haven't seen a great rush to put that on teams) and need to resort to U-Turn / Volt switch shit if you want to run offensive teams which blows as now Mienfoo (best momentum grabber) is super common. Then to stop Foo you need a half-hearted pivot but mostly you need Fletch for the easy KO. To stop Fletch you need at least one of Chinchou / Pawniard and of course you need Abra itself so your team is Foo / Abra / Fletch / Pivot (Foongus or something) / Chinchou or Pawn / Utility mon (usually drilbur for rocks + spin but it can be Archen or if you're a fan of mystery Tirtogua) and then you see this everywhere and hate it

Please don't take this too seriously Abra isn't broken (it does limit teams a ton though) but I just hate it ahhhhhh

 

[Caledrith]

Abra is a god, but its not unbeatable or broken in anyways shape or form (unless subLO :)). Chinchou needs to go. Chinchou needs a suspect, it literally makes this game shit to play.

 

[Camden]

I'm going to semi-seriously attempt to get Abra suspected the next time we can it sounds retarded but there's sort of a point to it

First it centralizes the meta because you can no longer run setup sweepers (besides Shellder but i haven't seen a great rush to put that on teams) and need to resort to U-Turn / Volt switch shit if you want to run offensive teams which blows as now Mienfoo (best momentum grabber) is super common. Then to stop Foo you need a half-hearted pivot but mostly you need Fletch for the easy KO. To stop Fletch you need at least one of Chinchou / Pawniard and of course you need Abra itself so your team is Foo / Abra / Fletch / Pivot (Foongus or something) / Chinchou or Pawn / Utility mon (usually drilbur for rocks + spin but it can be Archen or if you're a fan of mystery Tirtogua) and then you see this everywhere and hate it

Please don't take this too seriously Abra isn't broken (it does limit teams a ton though) but I just hate it ahhhhhh

I really do hope you're joking. Yes, SashBra can be annoying, but it can't switch in on ANYTHING without suffering. Even then, it can't handle priority well, and just like you mentioned, multi-hit moves destroy it. Oh, and all of those things you mentioned don't really spawn from Abra's presence. They're just good.

 

[Fiend]

Several things, if you don't want us to take it seriously, then why post it? What happened to Fletchling, Ziggy, the many Smashers, SD Pawn? Those are still fairly common threats. Sure, Abra is good. Sure it revenge kills most set up sweepers. Sure, you might need an abra check on some teams. However, as you stated yourself, ABRA IS NOT BROKEN. NOT BROKEN = NO BAN. Look at fletch for an example of this. And that teambuilding you just mentioned? That's not quite standard; it might be good, but it's not standard.

 

[doomsday doink]

Chinchou needs a suspect, it literally makes this game shit to play.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is what this discussion needs to be about. The amount of controversy between players in regards to Chinchou's existence in LC is great fuel to the argument. Personally, I don't think Chinchou is broken enough to be banned from the meta, but it's still an insanely versatile and annoying Pokemon to face. Berry Juice is probably the best set in the current meta, with the capability to support the team and apply offensive pressure at the same time. Eviolite is still as relevant as it has been in the past and Choice Scarf is fantastic for VoltTurn teams and balanced teams alike. Like seriously, any Pokemon whose best counter is itself leads to extremely infuriating matches. However, if Chinchou was put to a suspect test, I can see the results being similar to the Fletchling test. (let the discussion commence imo)

 

[Shrug]

Abra is a god, but its not unbeatable or broken in anyways shape or form

Yes, SashBra can be annoying, but it can't switch in on ANYTHING without suffering. Even then, it can't handle priority well, and just like you mentioned, multi-hit moves destroy it. Oh, and all of those things you mentioned don't really spawn from Abra's presence. They're just good.

For comparison:

Abra isn't broken

My point is, Abra is not broken; it is without question overcentrilizing. I know Abra has flaws; my main problem with Abra is the fact that it absolutely donks any setup sweeper that doesn't pack a multi-hit move (nearly all of them) deterring their use. Please don't make it seem as if I said Abra was broken when I literally said "Abra is not broken" thanks. To your points about the teambuild I presented, I exaggerated its prevalence to make a point, but it's hard to deny that it is very common. And you are all correct in saying that the other Pokemon in the team i gave are very good regardless of Abra, but a team similar to that sans Abra could be defeated by a set-up sweeper (say, Riolu) through proper play, forced switches, entry hazards etc. Abra by itself prevents that from occuring, limiting viabilty of myriad threats. Of course you could run more than one sweeper and set up multiple times, but against a good player with a pressure team you may only get to set up once, which sucks. I posted it semi-seriously because this was a discussion thread; I believe overcentrilization has been a banworthy criteria for a while? idk

 

[GlassGlaceon]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is what this discussion needs to be about. The amount of controversy between players in regards to Chinchou's existence in LC is great fuel to the argument. Personally, I don't think Chinchou is broken enough to be banned from the meta, but it's still an insanely versatile and annoying Pokemon to face. Berry Juice is probably the best set in the current meta, with the capability to support the team and apply offensive pressure at the same time. Eviolite is still as relevant as it has been in the past and Choice Scarf is fantastic for VoltTurn teams and balanced teams alike. Like seriously, any Pokemon whose best counter is itself leads to extremely infuriating matches. However, if Chinchou was put to a suspect test, I can see the results being similar to the Fletchling test. (let the discussion commence imo)

Berry Juice Chou is an awful waste of a mon imo, I always find it just getting knocked off in the most inopportune time when playing both with and against it, and it can't consistently switch into fletch unless u constantly have rocks up in which it dies before you do. Evio Restalk chou is by far the best set, with a great defensive typing and it can actually do stuff during sleep unlike any other restalker like burn stuff nd pick up momentum. scarf is ok i guess but ive never rly been a fan of anything but evio restalk. chinchou has never really been versatile imo, it has hard counters in porygon and most grass types bar uncommon hp fire/poison lures, and I don't even think it's worthy of a suspect. yes chinchou is annoying, and yes it is a fantastic pivot. I haven't heard anyone complain about a mon like mienfoo who is just as, if not more versatile, and is arguably a better pivot than chou because of access to unblockable switch move and regenerator.

Abra is a god, but its not unbeatable or broken in anyways shape or form (unless subLO :)). Chinchou needs to go. Chinchou needs a suspect, it literally makes this game shit to play.

Now before people crap on cale and say "oml ur a bad player for wanting chinchou ban" he never said he wanted a ban, just a suspect with a hint of i want this to go

Having said that

"oml ur a bad player for wanting chinchou ban." nah but really I don't see any reason to even put this thing up for suspect. Fantastic Pivot. Great mon for offense and defense alike. chinch has a bunch of positive traits but it is a mon who suffers becos its worn down way too easily, has a lack of reliable recovery further pushing on this point, doesnt have unblockable pivoting move so it can be stopped, and has a long list of hard checks/counters. like literally all u have to do is run one of foongus/Porygon/ferroseed/cotton and ur pretty much set vs this mon. Things like misdreavus and krow were banned becos they had a limited list of counters that could normally be surpassed BY A MOVESET AS EQUALLY EFFECTIVE AS THE STANDARD ONE. as a warning for future posters please please pelase dont go saying "hp poison chou beats cotton hp fire chou damages ferro p bad gg no counters" because most of those sets are subpar, and only work with the subpar set (imo) the berry juice set.

For comparison:


My point is, Abra is not broken; it is without question overcentrilizing. I know Abra has flaws; my main problem with Abra is the fact that it absolutely donks any setup sweeper that doesn't pack a multi-hit move (nearly all of them) deterring their use. Please don't make it seem as if I said Abra was broken when I literally said "Abra is not broken" thanks. To your points about the teambuild I presented, I exaggerated its prevalence to make a point, but it's hard to deny that it is very common. And you are all correct in saying that the other Pokemon in the team i gave are very good regardless of Abra, but a team similar to that sans Abra could be defeated by a set-up sweeper (say, Riolu) through proper play, forced switches, entry hazards etc. Abra by itself prevents that from occuring, limiting viabilty of myriad threats. Of course you could run more than one sweeper and set up multiple times, but against a good player with a pressure team you may only get to set up once, which sucks. I posted it semi-seriously because this was a discussion thread; I believe overcentrilization has been a banworthy criteria for a while? idk

abra isnt overcentralizing at all idk what ur talkin about. Offensive teams have scrafers to deal with abra, defensive teams have all of the different defensive checks/counters that it needs to take on abra. Unless ur talking about having to account for a threat in teambuilding which is a terrible argument, i really hope you realize that abra has a ton of ways it can be easily dealt with. Abra is annoying and a fantastic panic button, but ive nevere thought it to be broken, or even a full stop to all setup sweepers (ex: sturdyjuice tirt, shellder) also btw if ur trying to sweep when the opponent has a full health abra you're probably just doing it wrong in the first place.

Edit: sorry if i sound harsh in this post i don't mean to offend anyone but you gotta have stronger arguments than some of the stuff being brought up here to convince people this needs a suspect/ban

 

[Shrug]

abra isnt overcentralizing at all idk what ur talkin about. Offensive teams have scrafers to deal with abra, defensive teams have all of the different defensive checks/counters that it needs to take on abra. Unless ur talking about having to account for a threat in teambuilding which is a terrible argument, i really hope you realize that abra has a ton of ways it can be easily dealt with. Abra is annoying and a fantastic panic button, but ive nevere thought it to be broken, or even a full stop to all setup sweepers (ex: sturdyjuice tirt, shellder) also btw if ur trying to sweep when the opponent has a full health abra you're probably just doing it wrong in the first place.

Wait I wasn't aware good players were in the habit of leaving their Abras in to die to scarfers i must be too low on the ladder? Of course defensive teams can stop abra because Abra is not Broken (conveniently i said that from the start). If you have a set-up sweeper Abra beats (say DD scraggy, I know lots of things beat it, this is an example) that no other member of the other guy's team can stop you wont set up with your Scraggy (duh) but neither will he allow his Abra to be taken out. If your hypothetical scarfer does manage to take out Abra before Scraggy comes in it's because you've pretty much railed the other guy and you're winning anyway, making scraggy dead weight. And of course you can set up twice but that's pretty damn hard against a good player I feel, so set up sweepers (save tirt, which is genuinely good, but dont give me shelder who hasn't been used a ton on good teams) are basically nullified. Making an entire class of pokemon shitty and causing the meta to be focused around Foo U-turns isn't overcentrilizing?

 

[Corporal Levi]

I think the problem with banning Abra is that it simply isn't nearly as overcentralizing as you're making it out to be. Supposedly it decimates set-up sweepers, but clearly it hasn't affected the viability of said set-up sweepers very much at all when some of the most popular and effective Pokemon around happen to be set-up sweepers; given how the majority of your argument rests upon Abra rendering set-up sweepers unviable, I cannot stress this enough. Things like Mienfoo's U-Turn being good really have nothing at all to do with Abra; Voltturn is an incredible asset however you look at it because it gives you momentum, and momentum is good. If Abra disappeared, I really doubt there would be any immediate and drastic changes, and Pokemon that are currently viable or otherwise would remain so. Abra, although excellent, doesn't define the metagame and single-handedly limit Pokemon from becoming viable the way the S-ranks do; its weaknesses are simply far too prominent. Overcentralization, if significant enough to warrant a ban, often connotes brokenness anyway, but I don't feel as if Abra even comes close to being reasonably considered overcentralizing.

 

[doomsday doink]

Berry Juice Chou is an awful waste of a mon imo, I always find it just getting knocked off in the most inopportune time when playing both with and against it, and it can't consistently switch into fletch unless u constantly have rocks up in which it dies before you do. Evio Restalk chou is by far the best set, with a great defensive typing and it can actually do stuff during sleep unlike any other restalker like burn stuff nd pick up momentum. scarf is ok i guess but ive never rly been a fan of anything but evio restalk. chinchou has never really been versatile imo, it has hard counters in porygon and most grass types bar uncommon hp fire/poison lures, and I don't even think it's worthy of a suspect. yes chinchou is annoying, and yes it is a fantastic pivot. I haven't heard anyone complain about a mon like mienfoo who is just as, if not more versatile, and is arguably a better pivot than chou because of access to unblockable switch move and regenerator.



Now before people crap on cale and say "oml ur a bad player for wanting chinchou ban" he never said he wanted a ban, just a suspect with a hint of i want this to go

Having said that

"oml ur a bad player for wanting chinchou ban." nah but really I don't see any reason to even put this thing up for suspect. Fantastic Pivot. Great mon for offense and defense alike. chinch has a bunch of positive traits but it is a mon who suffers becos its worn down way too easily, has a lack of reliable recovery further pushing on this point, doesnt have unblockable pivoting move so it can be stopped, and has a long list of hard checks/counters. like literally all u have to do is run one of foongus/Porygon/ferroseed/cotton and ur pretty much set vs this mon. Things like misdreavus and krow were banned becos they had a limited list of counters that could normally be surpassed BY A MOVESET AS EQUALLY EFFECTIVE AS THE STANDARD ONE. as a warning for future posters please please pelase dont go saying "hp poison chou beats cotton hp fire chou damages ferro p bad gg no counters" because most of those sets are subpar, and only work with the subpar set (imo) the berry juice set.



abra isnt overcentralizing at all idk what ur talkin about. Offensive teams have scrafers to deal with abra, defensive teams have all of the different defensive checks/counters that it needs to take on abra. Unless ur talking about having to account for a threat in teambuilding which is a terrible argument, i really hope you realize that abra has a ton of ways it can be easily dealt with. Abra is annoying and a fantastic panic button, but ive nevere thought it to be broken, or even a full stop to all setup sweepers (ex: sturdyjuice tirt, shellder) also btw if ur trying to sweep when the opponent has a full health abra you're probably just doing it wrong in the first place.

Edit: sorry if i sound harsh in this post i don't mean to offend anyone but you gotta have stronger arguments than some of the stuff being brought up here to convince people this needs a suspect/ban

I don't really have a stance on Chinchou being suspected and whatnot, and I had no intention of conveying a position in my previous post. I think the main thing that you and I agree on, however, is that Chinchou only has a few sets, consisting of mainly the same moves. Fletchling has a similar issue, with most of its sets consisting of Acrobatics / U-turn / Swords Dance / Roost or Filler, hence my comparison between a possible Chinchou suspect test and Fletchling's suspect test.

Straying from the whole suspect idea, Berry Juice Chinchou isn't as inferior to the Evio RestTalk set as you think (look at that, back to the items :3). Although it lacks the longevity of RestTalk, Berry Juice Chinchou has two more moveslots and still has a rather reliable recovery. Of course, Berry Juice isn't the best set for a bulkier, stall-ish team, but on VoltTurn offenses and more Hyper Offense-oriented teams it is definitely a great option. Heal Bell is quite possibly the biggest advantage of the Berry Juice set and is one of the main reasons why Chinchou fits so nicely onto offensive teams (that and Volt Switch of course). The most notable draw, however, of not using Eviolite is obviously the lack of added bulk and RestTalk is fantastic for consistently checking a variety of threatening Pokemon, such as Fletchling and opposing Chinchou. But to be quite honest, Chinchou has options when it comes to running an item. Hell, it can run Eviolite with the standard Berry Juice set if the user feels the added bulk will add to the composition of the team, and recovery can easily be attained through WishPassing and Healing Wish (lol). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that although it may have a lacking selection of viable moves, Chinchou has the capability to run a variety of different EV Spreads and Items, all of which have different usages. And Berry Juice Chinchou is good.

 

[Dillon~]

Haven't really seen tailows lately, but I use a scarf chinchou. It has worked good in the past but I think teams are evolving and it isn't working that good anymore.​

 

[Heysup]

Before I actually get involved in this discussion on specific Pokemon, I think I should point out something people are forgetting.

Just because there are clear "best" Pokemon, does not mean they are broken. There is not ALWAYS a broken Pokemon in a metagame. At this point, suspecting or banning anything is purely philosophical. By this I mean, if you think we should "ban things we don't like or want", then it's fine to call for a suspect test (maybe not according to the leaders but i don't fking remember their process) on those Pokemon. However, let's not pretend that the reason for suspecting any Pokemon is because they are "too" good or broken.

 

[antemortem]

Haven't really seen tailows lately, but I use a scarf chinchou. It has worked good in the past but I think teams are evolving and it isn't working that good anymore.​

common knowledge: things are always evolving that's what makes it a metagame ?_? anything can work fine if you evolve with the metagame. the same tactics won't always work in an ever-changing environment if you opt not to actually change, too. scarf chou is still just as viable as anything else if it's got proper team support in the current metagame.

 

[apt-get]

Honestly? When people say "holy shit abra so good / chinchou is overcentralizing" I'm like "am I playing the same game"

 

[TUO]

metagames evolve, and just because something is rising in popularity for something doesn't mean that is the state of the game. Many people thought band bunnelby was actually good then, but actually really sucks. I'm not saying chou/abra sucks, but some people just overestimate the strength of something just because they are efficient pokemon in the meta. They definitely fill a legit role now but calling whatever is good as "overcentralizing" just doesn't sound good to me.

 

[blarajan]

I don't mind us suspecting things based off of shit we don't like. That's the whole point of my suspect process, you can do whatever you want in terms of what gets suspected. Whether it gets banned is an entirely different story. PS: all this discussion has done is convince me Band Taillow is good and that Shellder is antimeta as fuck so thanks for that.

 

[boo836]

I don't mind us suspecting things based off of shit we don't like. That's the whole point of my suspect process, you can do whatever you want in terms of what gets suspected. Whether it gets banned is an entirely different story. PS: all this discussion has done is convince me Band Taillow is good and that Shellder is antimeta as fuck so thanks for that.

Suspecting shit we don't like isn't necessarily the best way to go. Just because some people don't like one certain aspect of the meta doesn't mean it should be changed for them. I don't like dealing with Stunky, but it's a little nuts to try saying that we should ban it just because it always wins vs Abra, Gastly and Goth. We should be approaching suspects from an angle where we look at the impact it has on the game and questioning whether its presence is unhealthy for the present meta.

also no one wants suspect discussion to turn into more of a bitchfest

 

[blarajan]

Suspect testing <> banning / changing the metagame. If the players of Little cup dislike a Pokemon so much it gets enough votes for it to be suspected (and as of now, all of the suspects have had convincing margins) it's worth examining.