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I cant realy answer question one to be honest, i certainly had alot of games where i brought Pinsir in multiple times but i dont know how many of those were against HO, i would guess there were cases where it happend but i am not sure.
Question 2 is a no for sure for a simple reason. You dont set up with pinsir unless your certain to be able to sweep afterwards. Most of the time when you bring him in you will just attack with it to either kill something or demolish the switch in. Its not like Pinsir needs to set up anyway he has the power of a wallbreaker and the speed of a sweeper, he is perfectly fine even unboosted.
And no it doesnt always need other mons to wear down its counters as it severely dents most of them with an unboosted attack, like Rotom-w or Lando-T for example. You dont even have to bring Pinsir in 5 or 6 times, twice is enough because both can only switch into him once. I am aware that the scarfers you mentioned are revengekillers my point is that PInsir has no reason to let himself get revengekilled. You come in, kill something with that ridiculous power and switch out when the revenger comes in. You can play Pinsir in the same way as Garde or Medicham if you want to, your not forced to set up and try to sweep no matter what every time you come in. And you can come in by using volt/turners like Zone for example, you can come in after something died or on predicted ground or fighting attacks or Knock offs.
Regarding Feint, its 10 base power less than Quick Attack, yeah sometimes you will miss that extra power but it will help you just as many times. I mean whats more useful, requiring some priordamage on Greninja (easy to get with LO, sand and rocks around) or beeing able to get past common checks like Talonflame and sometimes even Thundy (needs lots of prior damage so its not gonna happen all that often). Not to mention that your not reliant on speed ties against other Pinsirs. Beeing a non contact attack that breaks protect also has its merits sometimes (looking at you ferrothorn). I tried both and i prefer Feint but thats up to the player. Just dismissing it as horseshit without even trying it is stupid though.
See the thing is, it's all fine and dandy that you were able to weaken that rotom-w in order for you to sweep later. But then what? You're forced out. See where i'm going with this? Pinsir does not wear down its counters b/c while it may get a solid hit off on it, that doesn't matter if you need to sack a mon to bring it in just to "wear down" its counters. Bringing it in on rocks and sand with a shitty typing and shitty sdef mind you.
You may be weakening your checks power-wise, but that too is useless if you can't come in again to take advantage of what you did. And pinsir can't.
Besides, if i'm not even gonna set up 60% of the time i successfully even come in, i'm probably better off just using some mega wallbreaker considering i'm using a zone and hazard support just to make pinsir remotely useful.
btw i've used both feint and QA and i like being able to kill ninja and gengar and stuff consistently as opposed to beating talonflame after I boosted after talon comes in on rocks once in a blue moon where it's actually useful lol. W/e its preference, not too relevant.
I have probably said this for like the one hundredth time, but Wobbuffet needs to move up; keeping it at C Rank is just complete ignorance how good of a win con this thing is against the offensive meta. It was only worth being as low as C Rank when Aegislash was everywhere, but now Aegis is banned, and now it is probably one of the most underrated Pokemon in the entire metagame. It does get worn down really easily, is susceptible to status, has no recovery, and is slow, but this thing has consistently been a win con for me. Wobb does not squander your momentum either if you play it correctly; if anything, access to Encore and Safeguard is going to give an offensive team a lot of free turns, and Wobbuffet's ability to punish offensive teams so well is such a great asset. All it needs is Healing Wish and offensive support, and you are good to go. I have nominated this thing for C+ Rank and it Alexwolf has not even nudged on it. Wobbuffet for C+ Rank.
One other thing: before you say that Wobbuffet is outclassed by Gothitelle, keep in mind that Gothitelle has a horrible match-up against offensive teams due to its lack of bulk and speed. Gothitelle is only good at removing walls, Wobb is good at providing free turns, revenge killing, trapping, how is Wobb even outclassed by Goth?
I'll just say this: sometimes you judge something in any game or sport not by how much you like having it on your team but by how much you hate it being on the opponent's team. And by that measure, I find Wobbuffet very, very good indeed.
I'll just say this: sometimes you judge something in any game or sport not by how much you like having it on your team but by how much you hate it being on the opponent's team. And by that measure, I find Wobbuffet very, very good indeed.
Except, the support it can give your team, is insane! Need a safe status free switch into your DDancer? Encore + Taunt Safeguard (I'm an idiot), I gotcha. X 'mon giving the team a problem? I'll take it out, don't worry. It's just by far one of the best members of the team I'm currently using. It scares people out of revenge killing, it allows me to set up, it is just insane. Wobb is amazing. In my opinion, C is not where it should reside.
Except, the support it can give your team, is insane! Need a safe status free switch into your DDancer? Encore + Taunt, I gotcha. X 'mon giving the team a problem? I'll take it out, don't worry. It's just by far one of the best members of the team I'm currently using. It scares people out of revenge killing, it allows me to set up, it is just insane. Wobb is amazing. In my opinion, C is not where it should reside.
Guess thats our main problem. You make it sound like its impossible for Pinsir to come in at all, which in my experience just isnt true at all. Until you evolve you can even switch him into rocks without much trouble and after evolving you only have to get rid of those rocks which isnt that difficult most of the time. Unless the opponent has like 3 or 4 counters/checks to Pinsir on his team i never had trouble getting him to work and he almost always pulls his weight, often enough he wins lost games on his own. There are more than enough fighting/ground/grass attacks and knock offs alongside bulky/defensive mons around where you can get him in and you have him paired with Zone anyway who can act as a pivot switch to get him in. And if neither works for some reason you can still bring him in after something fainted which happens anyway. No matter how you do it, unless Skarm/Zapdos are on the opponents team he will be hardpressed to handle him every time he gets in because he is so hard do switch into.
Anyway i would be fine with him moving up to S since he is one of the most threatening mons in the tier, even though he needs support. Dont realy care if he stays in A+ though.
Except, the support it can give your team, is insane! Need a safe status free switch into your DDancer? Encore + Taunt Safeguard (I'm an idiot), I gotcha. X 'mon giving the team a problem? I'll take it out, don't worry. It's just by far one of the best members of the team I'm currently using. It scares people out of revenge killing, it allows me to set up, it is just insane. Wobb is amazing. In my opinion, C is not where it should reside.
Just adding to this, but Wobb's immense HP allows you to tailor it's (albeit poor) defenses to exactly what you want it to trap. Plus it can avoid 2HKOs with Sitrus Berry which is REALLY convenient. Its Psychic typing is pretty solid right now, (which is why Slowbro, Jirachi, Celebi, Mew, Victini, and Cress are on the rise) and it can create crazy amounts of momentum, unlike Goth who is setup fodder if it's choice locked into a move after getting a kill. Even if it's low after killing something with Mirror Coat/Counter, it still discourages setup since it has Encore.
Unlike Goth or Dugtrio, it isn't deadweight when your opponent doesn't have something you initially wanted to trap. Plus it's not easy to predict when it will come in since, unlike Goth, Mag, or Dugtrio, it's not limited to what it can trap. You know your opponent will double from Diggersby to Magnezone predicting Skarm, but Wobb being a wild card makes it a really good trapper since it's not easy to guess when it will be switch in, especially since it isn't easily 2HKO'd by neutral hits, although the power creep makes it less effective compared to how it was in previous gens.
I think Wobb should be at least B-. It's a versatile trapper, despite its small movepool, that can work nicely against any playstyle.
Just adding to this, but Wobb's immense HP allows you to tailor it's (albeit poor) defenses to exactly what you want it to trap. Plus it can avoid 2HKOs with Sitrus Berry which is REALLY convenient. Its Psychic typing is pretty solid right now, (which is why Slowbro, Jirachi, Celebi, Mew, Victini, and Cress are on the rise) and it can create crazy amounts of momentum, unlike Goth who is setup fodder if it's choice locked into a move after getting a kill. Even if it's low after killing something with Mirror Coat/Counter, it still discourages setup since it has Encore.
Unlike Goth or Dugtrio, it isn't deadweight when your opponent doesn't have something you initially wanted to trap. Plus it's not easy to predict when it will come in since, unlike Goth, Mag, or Dugtrio, it's not limited to what it can trap. You know your opponent will double from Diggersby to Magnezone predicting Skarm, but Wobb being a wild card makes it a really good trapper since it's not easy to guess when it will be switch in, especially since it isn't easily 2HKO'd by neutral hits, although the power creep makes it less effective compared to how it was in previous gens.
I think Wobb should be at least B-. It's a versatile trapper, despite its small movepool, that can work nicely against any playstyle.
I wanted to take baby steps first and get it to C+ before I nominated Wobb to B-, but if everybody agrees it should go to B- anyways, then I will back B- as well.
Fads come and go so baby steps are the best steps.
Wobb is definitely an awesome poke with a solid niche but I feel like trapping pokes are being overhyped at the moment so I don't think it's best to raise them too high.
But still Wobbuffet should definitely rise to C+ and Magnezone to A.
Fads come and go so baby steps are the best steps.
Wobb is definitely an awesome poke with a solid niche but I feel like trapping pokes are being overhyped at the moment so I don't think it's best to raise them too high.
But still Wobbuffet should definitely rise to C+ and Magnezone to A.
This is true, but at the pace of the meta I personally don't think Mag is good enough to be an A mon. Shed shell skarm is becoming a pretty used set right now, which pretty much neuters mag as they can switch into a (possible) ground mon to gain a ton of momentum. Mag is pretty good in the meta right now, but i wouldn't consider it at A standard.
Personally, I think the reason mag is so high is that the scarf variant can reach a pretty respectable speed, checking bird spam and outspending mons like keldeo and thundy, and a steel type is always nice to have.
Holy shit the meta has changed so much in 4 months. Time to get back into the groove of things! Just wanted to say thanks to alexwolf, Nog, and CBB, TRC, and ben gay for keeping this thread alive in my absence. I got a lot to learn before I can even think about contributing to this thread again lol. I missed you guys. It's great to be back!
This is true, but at the pace of the meta I personally don't think Mag is good enough to be an A mon. Shed shell skarm is becoming a pretty used set right now, which pretty much neuters mag as they can switch into a (possible) ground mon to gain a ton of momentum. Mag is pretty good in the meta right now, but i wouldn't consider it at A standard.
Personally, I think the reason mag is so high is that the scarf variant can reach a pretty respectable speed, checking bird spam and outspending mons like keldeo and thundy, and a steel type is always nice to have.
After using it in a lot of my teams, I would like to nominate Scizor for B+ rank, particularly the CB scizor set. It has huge attack, powerful priority which is boosted by its ability, and an admirable amount of bulk. It can even deal with Mag or Heatran switch ins with a well placed superpower. Scizor has great utility as a defogger, and can be used on many teams. It can be used as a nice, bulky pivot, yet can also run Pursuit and knock off. Overall, this should lead for it to be moved up to B+.
After using it in a lot of my teams, I would like to nominate Scizor for B+ rank, particularly the CB scizor set. It has huge attack, powerful priority which is boosted by its ability, and an admirable amount of bulk. It can even deal with Mag or Heatran switch ins with a well placed superpower. Scizor has great utility as a defogger, and can be used on many teams. It can be used as a nice, bulky pivot, yet can also run Pursuit and knock off. Overall, this should lead for it to be moved up to B+.
You can't just name a Pokemon's quailities and expect it to go up. You need to compare it to the Pokemon in its current rank and the rank you are proposing.
On that note, I have a bit of an odd nomination. Shiftry for D.
While I am still experimenting a bit with the optimal EVs, I think Shiftry is viable in this meta on Charizard Y teams that have trouble with Pokemon such as Azumarill and Tyranitar. To start off, here are the Pokemon in ranks S-B+ that Shiftry can easily revenge kill with a mixed set (as in only set you should be using)
(requires a bit of mega evolution mindgames, however, meaning it must be evolved before Shiftry is out)
(not Scarf)
(needs SR and a bit of prior damage, but this thing is a huge threat to sun anyway, so this is a huge plus for Shiftry)
(not a problem for Sun, but can't touch Shiftry without Gyro Ball and is 2HKOd)
(needs a bit of prior damage)
(also needs prior damage)
(loses to Knock Off + Solarbeam regardless of EVs, and a burn does not 100% best Shiftry)
Sorry, sprites are dumb, still it proves the point.
Obviously listing a ton of Pokemon we all know it beats is pretty useless, But I think that a Clorophyll sweeper not weak to Talonflame or most other revenge killers that can also handle some of the Pokemon most problemstic to Charizard Y and sun in general is definitely worth acknowledging, even if it isn't anywhere near perfect.
While I haven't found the perfect EVs, the basic set is Life Orb 4 attacks, being Low Kick, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Solarbeam, and must be paired with Charizard Y. Knock Off is always superior to Dark Pulse as most of its targets (like the Latis) have higher special defenses. Also it's Knock Off.
Now, Shiftry does have huge some flaws, those being turning into garbage outisde sun, and trouble breaking through bulkier walls, as well as competiton with other, though mostly niche as well, sun wallbreakers. It also has problems breaking through common Pokemon like Mega Heracross. However, I believe Shiftrys offensive typing and good mixed attacking stats, as well as a way to stop certain revenge killers on Charizard Y teams should grant it a spot on the list, and if people agree, possibly an analysis.
If this post gets any support/replies/criticism/anything, I'll be glad to work on the EVs and possibly make a new team with Shiftry to help prove the point, if anyone wants that.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but Terrakion should move down. It's still very good, but it doesn't seem A+ rank anymore. It's still got two great STABs, a decent lead set and the SubSD set, but the other non-Megas in A+ seem to have a bigger impact on the meta and more usability. Personally I think Terra is more on the level of Dragonite, Bisharp, Mamo, Gengar and Mew than it is Greninja, Talonflame, Clefable, Heatran and the Lati@s twins. I'd like to hear some more thoughts, but Terrakion to A might be a good idea.
You can't just name a Pokemon's quailities and expect it to go up. You need to compare it to the Pokemon in its current rank and the rank you are proposing.
On that note, I have a bit of an odd nomination. Shiftry for D.
On a more serious note maybe some replays would help cause I haven't seen this thing once in OU even though it sounded alright on paper considering what it can do offensively. For now still against it.
Hi I have no comment on Shiftry itself (it looks pretty bad to me though) but I would like to say that Shiftry learns Sucker Punch, and Shiftry is faster than Talonflame in sun, so its Sucker Punch will hit before Brave Bird does. That is all. I will try and edit in something relevant here later if I can, but just wanted to get that across.
On a more serious note maybe some replays would help cause I haven't seen this thing once in OU even though it sounded alright on paper considering what it can do offensively. For now still against it.
I'm aware this will be a controversial nomination but I firmly believe Greninja is a threat of the highest level and deserves the highest rank on this list.
No other Pokemon poses a threat to both offensive and defensive teams the way Greninja does. Its depth of coverage (and the power each move has) combined with Hydro Pump's "just enough" power makes it incredibly hard for defensive teams to switch into. About the only thing that can is Chansey, and not all teams can run it. Mixed Defenses Clefable can take a couple of Hydros, but it has to be very careful and the mere presence of Greninja on the opponent's team means it's forced into its recover very often to avoid being 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Other checks such as Ferrothorn or Mega Venusaur simply get owned by the appropriate coverage move, which by the way you can almost never tell until it has used it. About offensive teams, Greninja is fast enough to outspeed every non scarfed Pokemon except for a couple of Megas which lets it clean a lot of teams extremely easily once a few things have been weakened. Sets such as AV Azumarill can slow it down for a while but it's never a full stop to Grass move Greninja. Don't forget that Greninja resists Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch, meaning that not all priority can take it down easily. Scarfers may revenge kill it, but they absolutely cannot switch in, so what's stopping Greninja from simply switching out and coming back later to kill more stuff?
As I said before, Chansey is able to stop Greninja pretty easily. However, one move changes everything: Spikes. Spikes Greninja takes full advantage of Chansey, because if it switches in (and trust me, it will), it guarantees at least two layers for the Greninja user, three if Chansey decides to stay in. It can't even Thunder Wave it because of the Ground typing. You could switch to a Defogger, but Greninja actually owns every single one of them. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and the Lati twins are going to get mauled by STAB Ice Beam, while Skarmory and the odd Scizor are destroyed by Hidden Power Fire. The fact that Greninja is able to take such advantage of its one true counter is incredible and makes it infinitely more viable.
Greninja is absolutely metagame defining, consistent and threatening to all playstyles, which in my book fits the S rank perfectly.
You neglected to mention that Spikes Greninja can't do jack to Starmie unless it runs Dark Pulse over Ice Beam or HP Fire (Hydro Pump is a must so it's non-negotiable). By doing so Greninja now loses to certain defoggers so it's far from the be-all and end-all spiker. Greninja is a good pokemon but it's no S-rank material. A+ is fine.
