Really? Did you read the last page? Because even after my original response to that, I saw several other people supporting magneton to stay at C+. You're going to have to do better than 'still suggesting it drop', and give us some solid reasons. Because unless you have some concrete proof that magneton suddenly isn't as good at what it does, there's no reason it should drop.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
I agree with Omastar in B, but it doesn't 2hko Ferro. If Omastar goes to B Kingdra should move to B+ imo. It's faster and has better offensive and defensive typing. Kabu can drop to B because most water resists invest more in physical defence (Venu, Slowbro, Ferro, Tangrowth etc.) which makes Kabutops easier to wall then Kingdra/Omastar.
I'm undecided about moving Ferrothorn to A+ . Has a really great bulkyness in both defenses , a nice typing and a really good versatility. He is commonly used by Expert and 3rd in usage at smogon tours (I know that usage doesn't determine his rank , but especially at smogon tours there are several professional players). The thing that makes me doubt is the biggest problem for him , Magnezone , which traps and counters Ferrothorn easily thanks to Hidden Power fire , and he is not rare.
I would like your opinion about this.
I agree on moving Tornadus-I to D rank. His stats are not good for the role that instruct. Has only Flying type. Then , unfortunately , only Flying type moves has STAB. Not good movepool for his role and his trait is not very useful except when setting tailwinds and substitutes.
I would like your opinion about this.
I agree on moving Tornadus-I to D rank. His stats are not good for the role that instruct. Has only Flying type. Then , unfortunately , only Flying type moves has STAB. Not good movepool for his role and his trait is not very useful except when setting tailwinds and substitutes.
Ferro isn't versatile, it only has 1 good set with a few different move options. It should just stay in A because enough "Magnezone controls the meta" or whatever this discussion is dumb. Please reread my Tornadus post because many good players will agree that Tornadus has a unique and very usable niche in OU and shouldn't drop. Use it before discussing it at least.
Last edited:
Tornadus has a unique and very usable niche in OU, but it should drop. And if it were up to me I'd unrank the thing, because its niche isn't even a good one. It isn't a good mon. When you're using it you are essentially trying to do two things: to Wall break and to set up Tailwind on the turn it goes down for your heavy switch ins. That may seem nice and all on paper, but there are few downsides that come with this team build that you failed to mention:
- Tornadus-i is frail and can be hard to switch in, with a Stealth Rock weakness to boot.
- Your heavy hitter needs to be able to put in the work against their particular team build. And in only two turns.
- Your using up a team slot that provides no defensive utility.
Tornadus-T has that extra utility and if you really wanted to you can even use Tailwind on that, because a lot of the time it's fast enough to get it off before being KOed. - You can always wall break with Swift Swim mons instead. They're many more times reliable, because they have a better typing for the job and the ability to double as late-game sweepers.
Edit: Specs Tornadus isn't a good set in this meta, so don't even mention it.
I never brought up Talonflame, RotomPoison. And for what it's worth, Tailwind isn't good on that either. Also, Talonflame has more utility with priority Brave Bird, Roost etc. - things Nado lacks. Swift Swim is Swift Swim? Well Tornadus-i is Tornadus-i and Tornadus-i kinda sucks.
Last edited:
Tornadus has no reason to drop, and if anything he should rise to C. Although he's generally outclassed by his therian counterpart, those Choice Specs Hurricanes hurt like hell despite 70% acc, and he can act as a great stallbreaker if running Taunt + Knock Off. Then there's Prankster Tailwind, which is great on hyperoffense and is something no other Pokemon can do reliably.
Tornadus: C- ----> C
Tornadus: C- ----> C
Not that I'm disagreeing with the raise but I think there's some point of your arguments worth noting.
1. Taunt + Knock Off makes anything a good stall breaker but he has no reliable recovery and his strongest stab is 70% accurate and his coverage drops his offensive stats. I don't think he would be the best as a stall breaker.
2. Enlighten me again why I would use choice specs hurricane on Torn I? Specs hurricane seems like you're trying your best to pull and justify as much as you can out of putting it in C. No doubt it will hurt but what good comes out of using specs? I could see it work if rain was permanent so you have a spammable stab. But this gen, specs Torn just feels like a hit and run mon which doesn't really justify it's worth. I would say that it's main niche is having access to +1 tailwind allowing it to first wear teams down before setting tailwind up for something to come and clean up.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong. I used Torn extensively both in Gen 5 and early Gen 6 and I feel that Torn is just better in the rain and without perm rain (also flying gem acro) it's main use seems to be as one of the better tailwind setters.
Talenhiem
Talonflame generally has better things to do than set up Tailwind, not to mention it's 4x weak to rocks and doesn't hit as hard as Tornadus.
2. Specs Hurricane is great on rain teams or if you really need something to OHKO Mega Venu while being an okayish scouter and discouraging anything not named Chansey from switching in at the same time. But yup Tailwind is his main niche, and don't say it's outclassed by Talonflame. Tornadus hits much harder, has Knock Off and isn't 4x weak to SR.
Talonflame generally has better things to do than set up Tailwind, not to mention it's 4x weak to rocks and doesn't hit as hard as Tornadus.
1. Taunt/Knock Off/Hurricane/Superpower. Yeah it drops Tornadus' stats, but 184 SpA EVs are generally enough to put a dent in almost anything, considering Flying is a great STAB.
2. Specs Hurricane is great on rain teams or if you really need something to OHKO Mega Venu while being an okayish scouter and discouraging anything not named Chansey from switching in at the same time. But yup Tailwind is his main niche, and don't say it's outclassed by Talonflame. Tornadus hits much harder, has Knock Off and isn't 4x weak to SR.
Last edited:
Yeah keep comparing it to Talonflame, because it obviously has the free slots for all those moves and no 4x weakness to SR and a way to get past Fighting-types and Knock Off and other moves affected by Prankster and 121 SpAtk with Hurricane, right?
If Tornadus is frail and hard to switch in with a SR weakness then so is Talonflame. It has a much worse SR weakness and less bulk (81/80/80 isn't terrible either)
What stops any heavy hitter from doing damage in a few turns? Also, it's 3, not 2.
Talonflame has no defensive utility either.
Name 1 (and ONLY 1) that can break absolutely everything. Swift Swim is limited to Swift Swim, Tailwind affects everything.
Keep going everyone it's great when people want a mon to drop without using it right n_n
It's niche is a very good one, because Tornadus also has the chance to set up multiple times per game/Knock Off/actually hit TTar.Tornadus has a uniqueand very usableniche in OU, but it should drop. And if it were up to me I'd unrank the thing, because its niche isn't even a good one. It isn't a good mon. When you're using it you are essentially trying to do two things: to Wall break and to set up Tailwind on the turn it goes down for your heavy switch ins. That may seem nice and all on paper, but there are few downsides that come with this team build that you failed to mention:I do not want to see
- Tornadus-i is frail and can be hard to switch in, with a Stealth Rock weakness to boot.
- Your heavy hitter needs to be able to put in the work against their particular team build. And in only two turns.
- Your using up a team slot that provides no defensive utility.
Tornadus-T has that extra utility and if you really wanted to you can even use Tailwind on that, because a lot of the time it's fast enough to get it off before being KOed.- You can always wall break with Swift Swim mons instead. They're many more times reliable, because they have a better typing for the job and the ability to double as late-game sweepers.
on this list, because I see the teams that using it results in as inferior to the more standard double Swift Swim build.
Edit: Specs Tornadus isn't a good set in this meta, so don't even mention it.
If Tornadus is frail and hard to switch in with a SR weakness then so is Talonflame. It has a much worse SR weakness and less bulk (81/80/80 isn't terrible either)
What stops any heavy hitter from doing damage in a few turns? Also, it's 3, not 2.
Talonflame has no defensive utility either.
Name 1 (and ONLY 1) that can break absolutely everything. Swift Swim is limited to Swift Swim, Tailwind affects everything.
Keep going everyone it's great when people want a mon to drop without using it right n_n
Last edited:
Specs Omastar isn't a good set in this meta, so don't even mention it.
With Choice Specs, Tornadus can help Kabutops/Omastar clean up - it breaks through or weakens Mega Venu, Celebi, Keldeo, Lati@s, Ferrothorn and even weakened Azumarill. Name something else that can do this.
Tailwind isn't good? Then why the hell does Zard X use it alongside SD???
Specs Omastar is actually great in this meta.
Tornadus is outclassed in everything it does. On rain teams torn-t outclassed it and talonflame is better as a tailwind user. I'm not even sure it deserves D-rank.
There's actually a Bulky Talonflame. Has Will o wisp to gain more defensive bulkyness against Physical attackers and to burn in switch-ins. Is mainly evsed fully in Special Defense to gain bulkyness against electric moves , which he can use roost to avoid the 2x. He can further boost the defense and the attack thanks to Bulk Up , or you can use Taunt , which allows bulky Talonflame to have a stallbreaking power and to avoid status moves.
Bulky Talonflame doesn't have room for Tailwind... it wants WoW, Taunt, Roost, Bulk Up, Brave Bird and even Flare Blitz. Don't compare it to Tornadus.
Did you seriously say that Specs Omastar is not good in this meta? Even when there's several players using it toward the top of the ladder and no one using Tornadus-i there?
And I merely said Tailwind wasn't good on two mons, because Tornadus-i is bad itself and Talonflame has better things to do. What Tailwind is really good on is Latias (on Rain offense), because if you don't double correctly when they pull a TTar or Bisharp switch you can always throw out a quick Tailwind before they KO you and then bring in your Heracross to do work.
Anywho, I probably won't respond to any more of your posts coz you don't seem to know what you're talking about, DoABarrelRoll.
And I merely said Tailwind wasn't good on two mons, because Tornadus-i is bad itself and Talonflame has better things to do. What Tailwind is really good on is Latias (on Rain offense), because if you don't double correctly when they pull a TTar or Bisharp switch you can always throw out a quick Tailwind before they KO you and then bring in your Heracross to do work.
Anywho, I probably won't respond to any more of your posts coz you don't seem to know what you're talking about, DoABarrelRoll.
If it is so good, please show us some replays against good players with Tornadus doing something and it could be up for discussion. Look at this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-15623 (team Brazil n__n)
This is the only time I've ever seen Tailwind-based teams being used by good players in XY. And neither used Tornadus, or needed it. Talonflame can provide decent Tailwind support even with offensive sets, and Charizard X, the best possible "Tailwind Sweeper", can provide it itself, having more turns to deal damage before Tailwind peters out. Latios and Latias can do it, but they already need all of their slots pretty badly. All-in-all, Tailwind teams can be used to some degree of success, but Tornadus isn't a part of it.
Tornadus just begs for just about any electric to come in, too. Relevant electrics include Raikou, Rotom-W, Mega Manectric and Thundurus, and it is safe to say most teams contain one of those. First, you want to avoid Thundurus at all costs under those conditions. Second, Raikou, Rotom and Manectric just Volt Switch away, either forcing Tornadus to U-turn out or killing it, thus leaving the Tornadus user at a disadvantage and just killing all of his momentum. See, you can't really take advantage of Tailwind like that.
Tornadus is mediocre in the OU metagame, but is viable enough to justify its use on select teams. Therefore, D-rank fits it.
This is the only time I've ever seen Tailwind-based teams being used by good players in XY. And neither used Tornadus, or needed it. Talonflame can provide decent Tailwind support even with offensive sets, and Charizard X, the best possible "Tailwind Sweeper", can provide it itself, having more turns to deal damage before Tailwind peters out. Latios and Latias can do it, but they already need all of their slots pretty badly. All-in-all, Tailwind teams can be used to some degree of success, but Tornadus isn't a part of it.
Tornadus just begs for just about any electric to come in, too. Relevant electrics include Raikou, Rotom-W, Mega Manectric and Thundurus, and it is safe to say most teams contain one of those. First, you want to avoid Thundurus at all costs under those conditions. Second, Raikou, Rotom and Manectric just Volt Switch away, either forcing Tornadus to U-turn out or killing it, thus leaving the Tornadus user at a disadvantage and just killing all of his momentum. See, you can't really take advantage of Tailwind like that.
Tornadus is mediocre in the OU metagame, but is viable enough to justify its use on select teams. Therefore, D-rank fits it.
Banded Talonflame generally has a free slot: Brave Bird / Flare Blitz / U-turn / FREE SLOT, so saying that Talonflame does not have any free time to do so is complete bulsh. It may not hit as hard as Tornadus, but it is much easier to fit onto a team because it is already a solid revenge killer, whereas Tornadus is rather niche, and may not always be worth the teamslot.
Except Banded has to switch out and back in again to use Tailwind, cause it's Banded. If SR is up it might not even be able to Tailwind.
Tailwind isn't a good move to use in Singles. (In Doubles is a different story).
As someone pointed out, Talonflame run Tailwind for run something, because Talonflame only uses 3 moves, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz and U-turn. The fourth slot is a absolute filler, where it can run something that isn't 100% incompatible with Choice Band, like not only Tailwind, but also Roost, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, etc.
You can even make a mistake (Swords Dance, Bulk Up) and don't notice it, because the three moves that you will use 99% of the time.
As someone pointed out, Talonflame run Tailwind for run something, because Talonflame only uses 3 moves, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz and U-turn. The fourth slot is a absolute filler, where it can run something that isn't 100% incompatible with Choice Band, like not only Tailwind, but also Roost, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, etc.
You can even make a mistake (Swords Dance, Bulk Up) and don't notice it, because the three moves that you will use 99% of the time.
I used Tornadus-I and it is an inferior Tornadus-T. Wallbreaker? what kind of bullshit is that. Swift Swim users like Specs Omastar can just blow past all the shit Tornadus-I can while being a bird SPAM check and better sweeper. And the fact you are saying Choice Specs is a good set is making me "lol" myself. Tailwind BS is done better by the Lati twins. Your opponent brings in Bisharp, Tyranitar, or Scizor to Pursuit your ass and you Tailwind and let Mega Heracross or Mega Blastoise clean up all that shit. And Tornadus-T by far outclasses it because of its better speed and Tornadus-I aint doing crap that it can't 2HKO. And Tornadus-T doesn't get outpaced by ScarfTar which means it has more utility. It doesn't deserve no damn ranking. It is useless. If it had that cool niche, would I be seeing Tornadus-I up around the 1600s in the ladder? Damn right. The answer is no, and I thought rain was rare enough.
Last edited:
First of all, the fact that most people are focusing on Prankster Tailwind instead of Tornadus's additional power in comparison to Tornadus-T only shows how much lacking in experience with Tornadus most people are. Prankster Tailwind is an added bonus, and a way of checking dangerous sweepers and provide some momentum when Tornadus has done its job, nothing more and nothing less.
And for the last time, stop focusing so much in Tailwind, it's pointless, clutters the thread, and misleads new players into believing that Prankster Tailwind is THE reason to use Tornadus.
Tornadus-T has the same problems too, though outspeeding Raikou and Thundurus is great. Also, Hurricane + Focus Blast does a minimum of 86.4% to max Rotom-W, often a OHKO after SR, while Tornadus-T can't 2HKO. As for Raikou and Mega Manectric, yeah they are problems, but they take a lot of damage to switch in (Mega Manectric takes 48.3 - 57.2% from Hurricane, Raikou takes over half from Superpower), and thus can only switch in once (Raikou maybe twice if you don't hit it with Superpower on the first time it comes in). Not to mention that both Raikou and Mega Manectric are excellent targets for Mega Ampharos to set up an Agility after Tornadus gets KOed, which is a great partner to it, and certain great Pokemon to use on rain teams, such as SD Mega Scizor, appreciate the weakening of those Pokemon. Tornadus attracts a more specific set of Pokemon than Tornadus-T because it's harder to counter, and thus can weaken more reliably specific Pokemon for your sweepers, such as the aforementioned Electric-types. On the other hand, Tornadus-T can easily be dealt with Pokemon such as Clefable and SpD Mew, in addition with those Electric-types, meaning it's harder to lure and weaken the Pokemon you need to for your sweepers.
And for the last time, stop focusing so much in Tailwind, it's pointless, clutters the thread, and misleads new players into believing that Prankster Tailwind is THE reason to use Tornadus.
Last edited:
I'm not saying that losing to electrics is its main flaw, or talking about Rain Dance Tornadus or comparing it to Tornadus-T. I'm saying those electrics completely take momentum away from Tailwind sets, adding to the fact they simply aren't good.
You guys seem to have misread my post. of COURSE torn-I isn't outclassed by TFlame - he was just saying that there's no other reliable/good Tailwind user in the meta other than Torn-I, and I proved him wrong. I was NOT saying "Torn-I is 100% outclassed by TFlame".
Anyways... torn-I's niche is as a supporter, straight and simple, be it by status moves or attacking moves. Want that priority Tailwind? got it. Want a wallbreaker? Priority Taunt + Knock Off right here, or Superpower if needed. Need a secondary rain setter? Priority rain Dance + semi-spammable Hurricane. It even has U-Turn for momentum. Torn-I's problem is, it can't do all of those jobs at once; it can do one or two at a time, and there's almost always better options/competition for each singular set.
In other words, Torn-I is for when you need/want things that Torn-I has, in one package. I feel that this makes it an ideal C- - several very small niches, and while each individual one is probably D worthy, in the same way that MZardX's sets are all A+/A worthy, the versatility bumps it up to C-.
Anyways... torn-I's niche is as a supporter, straight and simple, be it by status moves or attacking moves. Want that priority Tailwind? got it. Want a wallbreaker? Priority Taunt + Knock Off right here, or Superpower if needed. Need a secondary rain setter? Priority rain Dance + semi-spammable Hurricane. It even has U-Turn for momentum. Torn-I's problem is, it can't do all of those jobs at once; it can do one or two at a time, and there's almost always better options/competition for each singular set.
In other words, Torn-I is for when you need/want things that Torn-I has, in one package. I feel that this makes it an ideal C- - several very small niches, and while each individual one is probably D worthy, in the same way that MZardX's sets are all A+/A worthy, the versatility bumps it up to C-.
Update time:
Latios: A+ ---> S
Azumarill: S ---> A+
Thundurus: S ---> A+
Gengar: A ---> A+
Mega Gardevoir: A ---> A+
Mega Alakazam: A- ---> B+
Mega Aerodactyl: Stays in A-
Quagsire: B ---> B-
Hawlucha: B ---> B+
Cofagrigus: Unranked ---> D
Cobalion: Unranked ---> D
Mega Abomasnow: Stays unranked
Metagross: Unranked ---> D
Lanturn: D ---> C
Heracross: Unranked ---> D
Meloetta: Unranked ---> D
As usual, i will only talk about the Pokemon that weren't talked much or didn't reach a consensus as to where they should go.
Azumarill: That was a really hard decision, trust me. In order to measure Azumarill's viability as objectively as possible, we have to both compare it with the other S rank Pokemon and see how it fares against every playstyle, aka how consistently it performs. Regarding consistency, it depends on Azumarill's set. The Assault Vest set is great against offensive teams and has an incredible number of favorable matchups, but it's not that useful against balanced teams and basically useless against stall. The Choice Band set fares much better against balance, because it's able to break through defensive cores easier, but still struggles quite a lot with Pokemon such as Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, and Ferrothorn, all very common Pokemon on balanced teams. CB Azumarill is still good against offense, though it checks less Pokemon because of the worse bulk, but somewhat makes up for it with its revenge killing power, being able to OHKO Pokemon such as Excadrill and Landorus from full life or after SR, and not being set up bait for dangerous Pokemon such as bulky Mega Charizard X and physically defensive CM Clefable. The Belly Drum set is Azumarill's worse set, and even though it can be an effective late-game cleaner, takes away the greatest things about Azumarill: its typing and bulk. You have to save it until late-game if you want it to sweep, so that means that you usually forfeit Azumarill's defensive abilities. Belly Drum can do work against both offensive, defensive, and stall teams, provided its checks and counters are gone, but needs significant support for this to happen, as well as a free turn to safely set up, while being unable to offer any defensive synergy if it wants to sweep. Overall, Azumarill is pretty consistent, but not consistent enough in comparison to the other S rank threats, because it can struggle against any kind of team not named offense.
Now, let's start with the comparisons. Latios and Greninja work against any kind of team, i don't think anyone disagrees with this, so let's go to the less obvious S rank Pokemon. Specs Keldeo also does work against every single playstyle, because of Scald, which allows it to pressure most of its checks and counters, such as Mega Venusaur, Slowbro, Amoonguss, Latios, Latias, and Azumarill. Sometimes, Keldeo may need to take its time to wear down its checks and counters sufficiently, but it's worth it if it means it's able to break through the opponent's defensive core and basically carry your team. Of course Keldeo checks less Pokemon than Azumarill, but it more than makes up for it with its offensive presence and great Speed. As for Mega Charizard X, it has a combination of versatility and sweeping potential that Azumarill lacks. Jolly DD Zard X is a pain in the ass for offensive teams to face, who often rely on Pokemon such as Mega Manectric and Scarf Landorus-T as their revenge killers, with a few priority users here and there added to the mix. Jolly DD Zard X dgaf about any of this and can sweep entire offensive teams in a heartbeat if given the chance, which alone makes it a huge threat. Also, as a set up sweeper, Zard X has the benefit of being able to add defensive synergy thanks to its great typing, bulk, and Roost, as well as set up in a ton of Pokemon, even on offensive teams, such as Bisharp, Mega Scizor, Mega Manectric, Rotom-W, SR Clefable, Mew, etc. So, Mega Charizard X's sweeping potential alone is at least A+ rank worthy, if not S rank. Then, if you just add his versatility to the mix, namely its ability to run Bulky WoW, DD + 3 attacks, bulky DD + Roost, Roost + 3 attacks, and Tailwind + SD sets, it is not hard to see why it belongs in S rank, even though it has many important flaws. Azumarill just barely got kicked to A+ rank, and Pokemon such as Keldeo and Mega Charizard X are just slightly more effective in this metagame, so it's not like it's not on par with those Pokemon, and we already discussed that the line between S and A+ ranks is blurrier than ever, so i trust that you guys respect this opinion.
Mega Alakazam: Alakazam dropped because it provides zero defensive synergy, needs a turn to MEvolve which can be very hindering against rain offense, given how Mega Alakazam doesn't get many chances to MEvolve before getting in to revenge kill something, and is not that hard to play around thanks to the lack of spammable moves. For example, Mega Manectric, another effective cleaner, has way better early and mid-game presence thanks to Volt Switch + Intimidate, which makes it harder to play around, and more effective at wearing down its checks and counters.
Metagross: Pursuit + Earthquake is a really important combination that Jirachi lacks, as being able to pursuit trap Lati@s is great, as well as not being Bisharp and Heatran bait. Also, the added power helps keep up the offensive pace, and Bullet Punch is kinda nice too, at least for a D rank Pokemon.
Mega Abomasnow: Sorry, but unless i see this thing in action, i am not getting convinced. Even though it trust ben gay's judgment most of the time, i just can't see how a Pokemon so slow, with so many weaknesses, and without that good STABs (tons of checks and plenty of counters) either is worthy of getting ranked.
Meloetta: Great Gengar counter with an Assault Vest set, decent power and coverage. Tbh i haven't used this thing lately, but i trust ben's judgment on this one.
Changes to discuss:
Hippowdon: A- ---> B+
Tyranitar: A ---> A-
Bisharp: A ---> A+
Garchomp: A ---> A+
Garchomp (Mega): B ---> B-
Lucario: B- ---> B
Magnezone: A- ---> A
Gothitelle: B- ---> C+
Latios: A+ ---> S
Azumarill: S ---> A+
Thundurus: S ---> A+
Gengar: A ---> A+
Mega Gardevoir: A ---> A+
Mega Alakazam: A- ---> B+
Mega Aerodactyl: Stays in A-
Quagsire: B ---> B-
Hawlucha: B ---> B+
Cofagrigus: Unranked ---> D
Cobalion: Unranked ---> D
Mega Abomasnow: Stays unranked
Metagross: Unranked ---> D
Lanturn: D ---> C
Heracross: Unranked ---> D
Meloetta: Unranked ---> D
As usual, i will only talk about the Pokemon that weren't talked much or didn't reach a consensus as to where they should go.
Azumarill: That was a really hard decision, trust me. In order to measure Azumarill's viability as objectively as possible, we have to both compare it with the other S rank Pokemon and see how it fares against every playstyle, aka how consistently it performs. Regarding consistency, it depends on Azumarill's set. The Assault Vest set is great against offensive teams and has an incredible number of favorable matchups, but it's not that useful against balanced teams and basically useless against stall. The Choice Band set fares much better against balance, because it's able to break through defensive cores easier, but still struggles quite a lot with Pokemon such as Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, and Ferrothorn, all very common Pokemon on balanced teams. CB Azumarill is still good against offense, though it checks less Pokemon because of the worse bulk, but somewhat makes up for it with its revenge killing power, being able to OHKO Pokemon such as Excadrill and Landorus from full life or after SR, and not being set up bait for dangerous Pokemon such as bulky Mega Charizard X and physically defensive CM Clefable. The Belly Drum set is Azumarill's worse set, and even though it can be an effective late-game cleaner, takes away the greatest things about Azumarill: its typing and bulk. You have to save it until late-game if you want it to sweep, so that means that you usually forfeit Azumarill's defensive abilities. Belly Drum can do work against both offensive, defensive, and stall teams, provided its checks and counters are gone, but needs significant support for this to happen, as well as a free turn to safely set up, while being unable to offer any defensive synergy if it wants to sweep. Overall, Azumarill is pretty consistent, but not consistent enough in comparison to the other S rank threats, because it can struggle against any kind of team not named offense.
Now, let's start with the comparisons. Latios and Greninja work against any kind of team, i don't think anyone disagrees with this, so let's go to the less obvious S rank Pokemon. Specs Keldeo also does work against every single playstyle, because of Scald, which allows it to pressure most of its checks and counters, such as Mega Venusaur, Slowbro, Amoonguss, Latios, Latias, and Azumarill. Sometimes, Keldeo may need to take its time to wear down its checks and counters sufficiently, but it's worth it if it means it's able to break through the opponent's defensive core and basically carry your team. Of course Keldeo checks less Pokemon than Azumarill, but it more than makes up for it with its offensive presence and great Speed. As for Mega Charizard X, it has a combination of versatility and sweeping potential that Azumarill lacks. Jolly DD Zard X is a pain in the ass for offensive teams to face, who often rely on Pokemon such as Mega Manectric and Scarf Landorus-T as their revenge killers, with a few priority users here and there added to the mix. Jolly DD Zard X dgaf about any of this and can sweep entire offensive teams in a heartbeat if given the chance, which alone makes it a huge threat. Also, as a set up sweeper, Zard X has the benefit of being able to add defensive synergy thanks to its great typing, bulk, and Roost, as well as set up in a ton of Pokemon, even on offensive teams, such as Bisharp, Mega Scizor, Mega Manectric, Rotom-W, SR Clefable, Mew, etc. So, Mega Charizard X's sweeping potential alone is at least A+ rank worthy, if not S rank. Then, if you just add his versatility to the mix, namely its ability to run Bulky WoW, DD + 3 attacks, bulky DD + Roost, Roost + 3 attacks, and Tailwind + SD sets, it is not hard to see why it belongs in S rank, even though it has many important flaws. Azumarill just barely got kicked to A+ rank, and Pokemon such as Keldeo and Mega Charizard X are just slightly more effective in this metagame, so it's not like it's not on par with those Pokemon, and we already discussed that the line between S and A+ ranks is blurrier than ever, so i trust that you guys respect this opinion.
Mega Alakazam: Alakazam dropped because it provides zero defensive synergy, needs a turn to MEvolve which can be very hindering against rain offense, given how Mega Alakazam doesn't get many chances to MEvolve before getting in to revenge kill something, and is not that hard to play around thanks to the lack of spammable moves. For example, Mega Manectric, another effective cleaner, has way better early and mid-game presence thanks to Volt Switch + Intimidate, which makes it harder to play around, and more effective at wearing down its checks and counters.
Metagross: Pursuit + Earthquake is a really important combination that Jirachi lacks, as being able to pursuit trap Lati@s is great, as well as not being Bisharp and Heatran bait. Also, the added power helps keep up the offensive pace, and Bullet Punch is kinda nice too, at least for a D rank Pokemon.
Mega Abomasnow: Sorry, but unless i see this thing in action, i am not getting convinced. Even though it trust ben gay's judgment most of the time, i just can't see how a Pokemon so slow, with so many weaknesses, and without that good STABs (tons of checks and plenty of counters) either is worthy of getting ranked.
Meloetta: Great Gengar counter with an Assault Vest set, decent power and coverage. Tbh i haven't used this thing lately, but i trust ben's judgment on this one.
Changes to discuss:
Hippowdon: A- ---> B+
Tyranitar: A ---> A-
Bisharp: A ---> A+
Garchomp: A ---> A+
Garchomp (Mega): B ---> B-
Lucario: B- ---> B
Magnezone: A- ---> A
Gothitelle: B- ---> C+
Last edited:
- Status