BW2 OU General Metagame Discussion

[Bedschibaer]

BW2 OU General Metagame Discussion
"Art" by Bedschibaer
​

By request, this is a general discussion thread about the BW2 OU Metagame, since there is none in this subforum. You can feel free to post everything from thoughts, ideas, sets, opinions, strategies and so on in here, basically everything you wouldn't cram into an RMT or into the Viability ranking thread. I am also going to use this thread as a little collection of resources that would otherwise be buried in the closed BW OU subforum.

Usage Stats*
Viability Rankings
RMT Archive
Articles

Tour Usage Stats
The Smog Article Index

Old Forum Resources and Discussions:
Creative / Underrated Sets
General Metagame Discussion
OU Cores in the BW Metagame
The Next Best Thing
Lower Tier Threats

In case you have any relevant links you feel that should be posted here, feel free to tell me.
*This link directs you to the general usage stats of the Pokemon Showdown! Simulator, to find the Gen 5 Stats you have to pick a month and scroll down to the gen5ou.txt file.

So how has the BW metagame changed since XY OU has been around, apart from the obvious decline in activity on the ladder?
The ladder usage stats compared to the (unupdated) tour usage stats show quite some oddities. Rain's usage on the ladder is insanely high. Politoed hitting top 2 in the last 3 months and Ferrothorn even hitting number 1 last month. Compared to Politoed only hitting number 9 in the tour usage stats and Tyranitar as the third most used mon. Appareantly ladder players also love sun, Ninetails hits around 10% usage every month, whereas a pityful 3,5% usage in tour speaks for itself. Would be cool to hear a couple of opinions on the actual viability of sun teams at the moment.

 

[Plasmanta]

For the sun team thing, it's mainly a misconception of lower ladder players. Usually people new(er) to the B/W metagame will try and run sun. Another thing would be people experimenting it on test alts. For this reason, sun is kinda non existant in anywhere +1350s.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

the high sun usage most likely comes from user: allainn who runs sun (Ninetales, Venusaur, Volcarona, Donphan, Garchomp, Weavile iirc), but forfeits turn 1 every game. a solid 517-620 win/loss proves this.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

I guess I'll make a doublepost about the usage statistics, since I'm bored:

Not liking rain usage being this high, but as I'm mostly a sand player, I probably am biased here.

Not sure if I like Dragonite that high either, but I guess it's the rain usage that does this. A bit of an overrated mon imo, but I can defo see the reasoning.

Use Keldeo more. It's the best mon in the tier.

Terrakion in 30th is a complete joke. And below Espeon too. Come on people.

Use Zam more. And stop using Metagross. And use Celebi.

Use Hippowdon more guys, it's great. Definitely not a bad pick.


That was a bad post. I dont care. Fuck bedschibaer.

 

[dadoux]

tl:dr

Keldeo is OP and the metagame would be a lot better without that scarfrain crap, Garchomp is a god in pretty much every team, hydreigon / slowking / gastrodon / amoonguss are underrated and really awesome

 

[Lavos]

I think sun is way better than people give it credit for. Sure it's sort of a "cheese" strat and relies entirely upon sealing weather advantage, but _if_ you can get permasun up it's very very likely that you are going to win. Things like sun boosted V Create and LO Chlorophyll Venusaur (still don't know why people run the stupid powder+SD set) are nearly impossible to beat. Ninetales + 2x trappers + spinner/bouncer + 2 sweepers is a perfectly legitimate core and beats nearly every rain team plus most ttar sand teams. Weatherless rarely stands a chance, the only time I've seen it win is with a SashLoom lead and the Sun team didn't have Xatu. If hippowdon didn't exist, sun would be the best archetype in the game, and even hippo can get EQ-locked by Wobb and killed in 2 counters. I think the only reason sun has a 3% usage rate in smogtour is because it's inconsistent and relies a lot more on team matchup than most other archetypes. So players who feel that they are at the top of the heap choose to play a more consistent archetype and rely on outplaying their opponent instead of cheesing them. Either way, a win is a win

tl;dr

 

[Lord Ninjax]

My thoughts about the S-Rank mons:
Yeah, Keldeo is the best: Scarf speed + Rain power + teammates to kill Latis, Celebi, Jellicent etc = everything dead. SubCM has it's issues but if Jellicent and stuff is down it will win games. Specs I haven't used, but that power.......wow. I've seen it used a few times on the PO ladder, once it annihilated a Rain Balance in 14 turns (1400-ish battle, don't have a log, this was 3-4 months ago)

Chomp and Rachi are high level cause they're so darn versatile, can Scarf to RK, set up Rocks, serve as tanks, lategame sweepers etc.....they are really good at everything and slot in really nicely into a lot of team archetypes. Toed and Tar are both pretty versatile, but they don't have the same versatility and don't really slot into any team style as easily (I used Unnerve Tar once on a Rain Team: he did okay, but still), their status is based upon their weather setting ability which is still pretty big in BW.

Sun I've gotta say I agree with Lavos on, if you have a solid team, heavy hitters + Sun sweepers + trapper spinner and all the other stuff that goes into a team, and Sun gets up, there's only a few teams, mons etc that can withstand what's heading for their face. Consistency against a bunch of things like Sand Stall is what a lot of people find an issue, plus sun sweepers are a lot more reliant on sun that other weather's (Sand sweepers dont really care unless they're Stoutland, Rain is 50-50: stuff like Keldeo and Starmie appreciate Rain a lot, but aren't completely useless without it.)

tl;dr : Keldeo is super-powerful and can exploit that power via Scarf/SubCM to lategame clean
Everything else in S Rank is super versatile, can run any set from tank, to SR, to Scarfing, to lategame sweeping.
Sun is match-up based but only flat-out loses to a few things, and if it gets fully set up it demolishes stuff.

 

[Jirachee]

I gotta say I think Keldeo is second to Garchomp. The Landorus ban had the effect of removing one big competitor for an offensive Ground type, while also removing Keldeo's favourite offensive partner. Garchomp is insanely threatening offensively, fits on just about every team, and can provide support with SR. Between Lum SD Aqua Tail in Rain (my favourite variant), Choice Band, Bulky SR RHelmet + DTail, the standard lead with Fire Blast, Mixed and Scarf, you can always make your opponent guess what your set is and choose whatever the hell your team wants, and it's gonna be a key element of your game plan. Keldeo is probably more threatening offensively but it lacks Garchomp's versatility and reliability, and relies a lot more on its teammates to work the best it can. In the end of the day this is just an opinion thing that doesn't matter much but this is how I see the metagame at the moment.

Also, I love Rain offense teams but I think that they're as effective as they could be atm because people just prepare for them more than for any other playstyle. Just getting Rain up and clicking Water attacks doesn't work because people LOVE Ferro as always, as well as King Slug Gastrodon (BKC's team with Reuniclus / Gastro is everywhere). So I've been trying new things and I have to say I absolutely love Hurricane spammers, Tornadus of course but also KING BIRD Moltres. Moltres is great because it can switch into stuff that Rain hates easily (ie Ferro) and greatly improves your match up against Sun teams which usually have an easy time beating you if they play Venusaur well. What do you guys use on your Rain offenses atm?

 

[dadoux]

Bulky chomp is the best chomp, SR+Dclaw+EQ+Fire blast (i don't like dragon tail, you need to kill latias and kyube) is purely awesome.

I don't really like playing with x4 rock weakness in bw, it's just impossible to spinn, and it's even worse for rains, if you are facing scarfttar+jellicent it's just over. I think toxicroak is an underrated threat, the SD can be really tough to deal with (sadly it's way too slow) and some sets like subtoxic/bulk up are pretty funny with dry skin. Gastrodon is frail but the LO version hits really hard after a storm drain. I saw some empoleon action in rain, i wouldn't recommend it (because of scarfkeldeo/breloom mach punch and stuff) but it was pretty funny

 

[MoxieInfinite]

I run moltres. Shits great.

Also i dont think subcm keldeos issues are that big. Against stall, it can set up on like everything, just pair it with like fast bandtar to kill jellicent, and youre good to go. Its an amazing set atm.

Also just mentioning that wow is a fucking gay move.

 

[Lavos]

I just realized Moltres is 2/3 of a blazin kickin chicken. Weak

And yes Garchomp is the best pokemon, get over Keldeo please. pony has to choose something to be weak to. chomper can just kill everything. also rocks are invaluable, and rocky helmet + rough skin is stupid, etc. Speed, damage, bulk, and most importantly versatility are what separates it from the pack. Keldeo is still broken though, scarf in rain does way too much damage.

jirachee, on rain I use Toxicroak because it's stupid good against most teams. And if you have a Jellicent, that's fine, I will never pass up a free Thund-T switch in. out of interest what is BKC's team? so I can steal it and win many smogtours huehue

 

[Lord Ninjax]

I don't really use Rain Offense as much, I prefer Rain balance rolling with something like SubCM Jirachi, NP Celebi lategame (I've used other stuff like that though). My Rain Offenses are fairly standard except for a few: I experimented with Unnerve Tar with Scarf Keldeo on one (50-50 on how it worked out). Scizor finds its way onto a bunch of my teams cause its a momentum machine, especially along with Tentacruel cause Scizor and U-Turning can force a lot of switches for TSpikes to kick in......wins me games.

Moltres and Croak are nice, never tried them out though, (Croak I've felt is slow and opens a bunch of holes in my team, I never heard about Moltres before this thread: If I have Ferro problems I use Keldeo or Tornadus as it still does a truckload to Ferro and is crazy fast).

I will accept Chomp as best BW2 Mon, it can run a ton of sets and pose a seriously multidimensional threat with mixed, CB, Scarf, RH+SR+Bulk, its insane. I second the req for BKC's Rain Team cause I wanna know how to beat it (plus if its not too much trouble can I get his old Froslass Offense from ST16? I wanted to build one of my own but idk how it works)

 

[dadoux]

It's not a rain team, it's a sandstorm team and it's pretty darn good. I use it a lot so i won't really spoil it, i wanna keep the mystery as long as i can (tl:dr lazy teambuilder)

 

[Alfalfa]

I gotta say I think Keldeo is second to Garchomp. The Landorus ban had the effect of removing one big competitor for an offensive Ground type, while also removing Keldeo's favourite offensive partner. Garchomp is insanely threatening offensively, fits on just about every team, and can provide support with SR. Between Lum SD Aqua Tail in Rain (my favourite variant), Choice Band, Bulky SR RHelmet + DTail, the standard lead with Fire Blast, Mixed and Scarf, you can always make your opponent guess what your set is and choose whatever the hell your team wants, and it's gonna be a key element of your game plan. Keldeo is probably more threatening offensively but it lacks Garchomp's versatility and reliability, and relies a lot more on its teammates to work the best it can. In the end of the day this is just an opinion thing that doesn't matter much but this is how I see the metagame at the moment.

Also, I love Rain offense teams but I think that they're as effective as they could be atm because people just prepare for them more than for any other playstyle. Just getting Rain up and clicking Water attacks doesn't work because people LOVE Ferro as always, as well as King Slug Gastrodon (BKC's team with Reuniclus / Gastro is everywhere). So I've been trying new things and I have to say I absolutely love Hurricane spammers, Tornadus of course but also KING BIRD Moltres. Moltres is great because it can switch into stuff that Rain hates easily (ie Ferro) and greatly improves your match up against Sun teams which usually have an easy time beating you if they play Venusaur well. What do you guys use on your Rain offenses atm?

Venusaur is usually my biggest problem when teambuilding around rain offense - the fact that Heatran is ass under rain makes it much harder for me to prepare for Venusaur if most of its checks on rain offense are unable to handle a +2 Venusaur without significant defense investment.

 

[BKC]

smd morpheus the people want it and theyre gonna get it!!!!!!!!!!

Hide

MEAT GRINDER (Garchomp) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 44 Def / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Fire Blast

bistro (Skarmory) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 56 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Whirlwind

raid (Gengar) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 20 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

figaro (Tyranitar) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

accordion (Gastrodon) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Recover

do not fire! (Reuniclus) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

pretty easy to beat reuniclus' counters between hazards + rocky helmet chomp to shit on uturners + wispgar. kyurem-b is for (BAN ME PLEASE)s

froslass

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Destiny Bond

Garchomp (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SAtk / 240 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 96 HP / 180 SAtk / 232 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Healing Wish

Breloom (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 32 HP / 244 Atk / 16 Def / 216 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Focus Punch
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed

Alakazam (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]

this is what i used in the finals of that one tour but i've barely touched it since... i eventually replaced scarf rachi with scarf sciz to make sure i killed starmie.

 

[MoxieInfinite]

Does this mean i can run sableye's again? Shits great.

 

[dadoux]

smd morpheus the people want it and theyre gonna get it!!!!!!!!!!

Hide

MEAT GRINDER (Garchomp) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 44 Def / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Fire Blast

bistro (Skarmory) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 56 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Whirlwind

raid (Gengar) (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 20 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

figaro (Tyranitar) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

accordion (Gastrodon) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Recover

do not fire! (Reuniclus) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

pretty easy to beat reuniclus' counters between hazards + rocky helmet chomp to shit on uturners + wispgar. kyurem-b is for (BAN ME PLEASE)s

froslass

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam
- Destiny Bond

Garchomp (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Trait: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SAtk / 240 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 96 HP / 180 SAtk / 232 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Healing Wish

Breloom (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 32 HP / 244 Atk / 16 Def / 216 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Focus Punch
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed

Alakazam (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice]

this is what i used in the finals of that one tour but i've barely touched it since... i eventually replaced scarf rachi with scarf sciz to make sure i killed starmie.

I don't use this version so it's fine, you should change the garchomp, the spread is not really useful imo

 

[Lord Ninjax]

Venusaur is usually my biggest problem when teambuilding around rain offense - the fact that Heatran is ass under rain makes it much harder for me to prepare for Venusaur if most of its checks on rain offense are unable to handle a +2 Venusaur without significant defense investment.

Use the Latitwins: They usually slot well into Rain teams, resist all Venusaur's standard moves (Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / HP Fire), and threaten it with an SE+STAB Psyshock. Scarf Latios is my pick as it anyways works well on Rain Offense as a heavy hitter and Revenge Killer. Watch out for Pursuiters paired with Venusaur like Weavile. The End.

Oh yeah, thanks for the teams BKC!

 

[Alfalfa]

Use the Latitwins: They usually slot well into Rain teams, resist all Venusaur's standard moves (Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / HP Fire), and threaten it with an SE+STAB Psyshock. Scarf Latios is my pick as it anyways works well on Rain Offense as a heavy hitter and Revenge Killer. Watch out for Pursuiters paired with Venusaur like Weavile. The End.

Oh yeah, thanks for the teams BKC!

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 253-300 (79.3 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Venusaur runs enough speed to outpace Scarf Latios. The only Pokemon that outspeeds it with a Scarf is Starmie, who cannot even KO with Psyshock.

BKC's teams look interesting, I might try them out. Thanks BKC!

 

[dice]

i don't really like rain at all since sand is just the most consistent playstyle; however, i was using scarf toed / ferro / tenta / weavile / tornadus / bulkychomp a while ago effectively. the point was that chomp and ferro can both weaken jirachi / scizor with rocky helmet + iron barbs for tornadus (this core is also good with reuniclus). weavile was thrown on to help against stuff like thundy-t and jellicent and the priority was cool.

 

[Tokyo Tom]

Hue, does MoxieInfinite even play BW2 OU? Shit's great.

Big fan of Rain Offense, so wanted to leave a post.

Venusaur is usually my biggest problem when teambuilding around rain offense - the fact that Heatran is ass under rain makes it much harder for me to prepare for Venusaur if most of its checks on rain offense are unable to handle a +2 Venusaur without significant defense investment.

Rain Offense (from my experience at least) typically gives Venusaur very little set-up chance. The worst case scenario is sacking something to get Rain back up, but typically Venusaur shouldn't give you too many problems.

I also just wanted to tell people to use NastyPass Celebi, it's a really awesome strategy especially in Rain. Celebi is really sturdy and with Recover + Natural Cure it gets many chances to set up. Stuff like Specs Moltres and Scarf Keldeo are scary AF with a NP boost, and Celebi also has the benefit of handling some misc. stuff that will bother your rain sweepers (Jellicent, Rotom-W, etc.). Finally, the whole strategy tends to shit on Mexican Sand Stall, which is key if you happen to be laddering on PO (was pretty relevant for me exactly a year ago trying to get IDM reqs and such).

One last thing is this Politoed set:

Politoed @

Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 216 SAtk / 140 Spd / 152 HP
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Focus Blast/HP Electric
​

Something I've found rather underrated, an EBelt lure set. It lures stuff like Tyranitar, Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, Gyarados, and more (well depending on what coverage you run) and can get quite a few surprise kills. Rain STAB Modest Hydro Pump hurts a lot anyway, so you don't have to worry even if you're not getting the EBelt boost. The speed creeps on Rotom-W and defensive Croak and the like, but you could definitely run more speed. Just something to try out if you're tired of running Choiced 'Toed.

 

[dadoux]

Custap toed is pretty fun too, you can grab a surprising kill against a scarf tyranitar and stuff.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

I also just wanted to tell people to use NastyPass Celebi, it's a really awesome strategy especially in Rain. Celebi is really sturdy and with Recover + Natural Cure it gets many chances to set up. Stuff like Specs Moltres and Scarf Keldeo are scary AF with a NP boost, and Celebi also has the benefit of handling some misc. stuff that will bother your rain sweepers (Jellicent, Rotom-W, etc.). Finally, the whole strategy tends to shit on Mexican Sand Stall, which is key if you happen to be laddering on PO (was pretty relevant for me exactly a year ago trying to get IDM reqs and such).

One last thing is this Politoed set:

Politoed @

Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 216 SAtk / 140 Spd / 152 HP
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Focus Blast/HP Electric
​

Something I've found rather underrated, an EBelt lure set. It lures stuff like Tyranitar, Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, Gyarados, and more (well depending on what coverage you run) and can get quite a few surprise kills. Rain STAB Modest Hydro Pump hurts a lot anyway, so you don't have to worry even if you're not getting the EBelt boost. The speed creeps on Rotom-W and defensive Croak and the like, but you could definitely run more speed. Just something to try out if you're tired of running Choiced 'Toed.

Yeah, I heard about NastyPass from Kidogo's old team in the RMT Archive, and made a version of it. My team I think was Bulky Chomp / EBelt Toed / NastyPass Celebi / Scarf Keldeo / Defensive Ferrothorn / Agility Thundurus-T: A bit cookie cutter but really hard to stop once it gets going. Despite Specs's power I used EBelt for the given reason: Bluff Specs (NP means you get the same kills regardless), lure Gastrodon and other rain sponges and end them with the appropriate move. Never used Custap Toed (never used Custap anything actually), but I'll give it a try, sounds pretty nice for a Rain Balance (to keep my Jellicent alive and laugh at poor Keldeo)(I do not and will not use stall, ever. Sorry Stall fans).

Btw there are IDM reqs? What exactly are those?

 

[MoxieInfinite]

Btw there are IDM reqs? What exactly are those?

1. Make a post
2. Type "fren" and ":]".
3. Repeat like 700 times.
4. ur in m8

 

[Deluks917]

Some of the strongest teams seem based on hazards stacking. The general strategy is to run:

Spikes (usually skarmory)
Steal Rock (sually tyranitar)
Spin Blocker (jellicent or bulky gengar)
Hazards abuser in either Alakazam or Reuniculus
Some way to not automatically die to sun
X - If you aren't using jellicent to spin block you need a rain counter.

One can also try to build the team without a spin blocker if they have multiple rocky helmets. For example Garchomp + Ferrothorn/Skarm.

An example build: *
Tyranitar (lead)
Heatran (scarf)
Reuniculus (bulky CM)
Gastrodon (defensive)
Gengar (bulky)
Skarmory

If you build these right they are ok vs Sun/Rain. However they can be a little soft to stall if running Zam. And a little soft to offense if runnign reuniculus. Though neither problem is terminal. There are really quite alot of ways of building these teams imo.

*I didn't build the example team.