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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
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Its in S rank alrdy lol
About Timbur, I agree with Yagura. Timburr is an excellent pokemon but I think it hasn't all qualifications for a S-Rank. Yagura has been meticulous and clear where he describes and compares it with Mienfoo. Timbur is bulky, that's right; but so many times, its Bulk Up is either not used because "battle's dynamics" don't allow it, so it can't be so strong as offensive pokemon.
So, even I use very often because I appreciate its qualities and strenghts, shortly Timbur hasn't:
So, even I use very often because I appreciate its qualities and strenghts, shortly Timbur hasn't:
- Regenerator
- A large movepool (and so it's not versatile)
- Remerkable stat (above all Atk and Spe)
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Yagura basically covers everything I'd say about Timburr, moving it to S seems silly. Yes, it's amazing, but it just doesn't do what an S pokemon should do imo. It can rarely sweep entire teams with Bulk Up, because poison/fairy types are so common, and it can't get past fairies without dropping bulk up for poison jab making its sweeping potential almost non-existant. The fact that it's hard-walled by many things just makes it not S material imo.
Pawniard for A+, I could agree on tbh. there are so many checks/counters to it and it's rather easy to deal with, and will struggle to sweep.
Shellder should probably be higher, that's been hyped loads atm so I won't really expand on that
Pawniard for A+, I could agree on tbh. there are so many checks/counters to it and it's rather easy to deal with, and will struggle to sweep.
Shellder should probably be higher, that's been hyped loads atm so I won't really expand on that
My dear Rowan, you of all people should know from experience that it's possible for Timburr to sweep entire teams. 
Even if it couldn't, there's no way "sweeping entire teams" is a requirement for S tier. None of the Pokemon in S can do that, especially if we decide to let Chinchou in. Only Shell Smashers can really do that consistently, and only Tirtouga is close to S rank at all. I also wouldn't say there are as many Pokemon that counter Timburr that people think. Spritzee and Snubbull are pretty much it for hard counters to the Bulk Up set, while everything else functions as a check, Poison-types included. If Timburr's sweeping power is hindered by anything (besides the aformentioned Fairies), it's by the fact that it can get past anything, but not with enough health to take on the next Pokemon. The point of Timburr, IMO, is not always as a late-game sweeper. It's fantastic for opening up holes early-game, especially against Mienfoo leads. Mid-game Timburr can set-up a Bulk Up on a switch and be pretty much guaranteed to take one Pokemon down, and then hit the next one with Mach Punch. Late-game, of course, if there's nothing left to stop it, then it can sweep. If you're using Timburr solely as a late-game win condition, it will do well, but the fact that it can 1v1 almost any Pokemon in the metagame and survive once is unrivalled by anything except for maybe Abra.
Even if it couldn't, there's no way "sweeping entire teams" is a requirement for S tier. None of the Pokemon in S can do that, especially if we decide to let Chinchou in. Only Shell Smashers can really do that consistently, and only Tirtouga is close to S rank at all. I also wouldn't say there are as many Pokemon that counter Timburr that people think. Spritzee and Snubbull are pretty much it for hard counters to the Bulk Up set, while everything else functions as a check, Poison-types included. If Timburr's sweeping power is hindered by anything (besides the aformentioned Fairies), it's by the fact that it can get past anything, but not with enough health to take on the next Pokemon. The point of Timburr, IMO, is not always as a late-game sweeper. It's fantastic for opening up holes early-game, especially against Mienfoo leads. Mid-game Timburr can set-up a Bulk Up on a switch and be pretty much guaranteed to take one Pokemon down, and then hit the next one with Mach Punch. Late-game, of course, if there's nothing left to stop it, then it can sweep. If you're using Timburr solely as a late-game win condition, it will do well, but the fact that it can 1v1 almost any Pokemon in the metagame and survive once is unrivalled by anything except for maybe Abra.
[Pokemon] given the right circumstances can easily sweep with [boosting move]. Did you mean Drilbur, Tirtogua, Omanyte, Scraggy, Ziggy, Bellspout, Riolu, Shellder, fucking Clamperl, or even Magby? Sweeping under proper circumstances is fine; an S-tier pokemon creates it's own circumstances with little resistence. Timbur is almost there, but it's beat on by Snubull / Spritzee and sometimes has trouble setting up. It also isn't metagame-defining. It very well be the best A-tier mon, but it isn't S tier now.SandShrewed said:
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I think Timburr is OK where it is, and S Rank is OK how it is. Timburr is not a real S Rank because it has solid counters (Spritzee, Snubbull, Croagunk and another poison types...), and it hasn't got a lot of chances to set up.
Speaking of other things I'd like to nominate Ponyta moving to High A rank. It's usefullness has grown up a lot because it has a lot of good aspects. It has the 2nd highest speed in the tier (not accounting scarfs), 19. It can act as a total counter of the 3 S Ranks stalling with Will-o-Wisp and Morning Sun, and it wins 1v1 vs Archen, Magnemite, Cottonee, Ferroseed, Foonguss, Croagunk and a very long etc. It has different sets: Flame Charge physicall sweeper, Sunny Day special sweeper, etc, but we all agree the best one is the physically defensive one. I know ponyta is weak to sr, to the most of the shell smashers and all that, but it's a great wall, it hits really hard and it is pretty fast. What do you think?
PS: I'm sorry for possible grammar mistakes, English isn't my main language.
Speaking of other things I'd like to nominate Ponyta moving to High A rank. It's usefullness has grown up a lot because it has a lot of good aspects. It has the 2nd highest speed in the tier (not accounting scarfs), 19. It can act as a total counter of the 3 S Ranks stalling with Will-o-Wisp and Morning Sun, and it wins 1v1 vs Archen, Magnemite, Cottonee, Ferroseed, Foonguss, Croagunk and a very long etc. It has different sets: Flame Charge physicall sweeper, Sunny Day special sweeper, etc, but we all agree the best one is the physically defensive one. I know ponyta is weak to sr, to the most of the shell smashers and all that, but it's a great wall, it hits really hard and it is pretty fast. What do you think?
PS: I'm sorry for possible grammar mistakes, English isn't my main language.
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I honestly believe that Pawniard is still an S-Rank Pokemon in this meta. Although Misdreavus left the tier, Pawniard still has amazing potential on a team, and it could even be argued that Missy leaving LC opened its potential up further, as it can now run Eviolite alongside its vast array of support moves now. In addition to being powerful, Pawniard also has access to Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Thunder Wave, the latter of which can cripple counters like Mienfoo. Swords Dance is also a bit more viable too, as Pawniard forces switches and can set up a Swords Dance quite often, allowing it to sweep late-game.
Pawniard can still support, cripple counters, wallbreak with its powerful Knock Off or even sweep. S-rank still fits it.
Pawniard can still support, cripple counters, wallbreak with its powerful Knock Off or even sweep. S-rank still fits it.
How is having solid counters a reason at all. Chinchou and Archen laugh at Fletch but that doesn't stop it from being S rank. Also TImburr beats tons of poison types 1v1 if they are slightly weakened. Actually the BU set beats Trubbish 1v1 even if both are at 100%.
Maybe I didn't express correctly. I meant that Timburr has more counters than a S rank should have in my opinion (practically every fairy/poison type)
If by every fairy poison type you mean Spritzee, Snubbul and Cottonee(if it doesnt have poison jab) and really just Croagunk on poisons since everything else loses to BU.
Pawniard is basically countered by every bulky fighter like foo, timburr, croagunk and bulky fires like Ponyta. Fletch is basically countered by most electrics, rocks and steels and those are omnipresent.
Maybe you are right, but it also loses vs things like Clorophyll Bellsprout or Foonguss. But I suppose you are right in this point. That I meant with the counters thing is that the opportunity to set up is not that high.
I think the issue we're having is an inability to define what the criteria is for each tier. A quick (subjective, arbitrary, but close enough) list of the "best" mons in the tier would probably read like this: Foo / Pawn / Fletch / Chinchou / Timburr / Abra (add archen, drill, pony maybe). It seems reasonable that there are not six S-tier mons; A+ is probably good enough for all but the most important ones. How to decide that is more tricky. In my opinion, the S-tier mons should be the ones that define the meta as it stands now. For me, that would look like Foo / Chou / Fletch / Abra in S with Timburr, Pawn, and the others in A+. For me, this meta will be defined by Abra lazily stopping sweeps and therefore causing safe momentum teams including Chou, Foo, and Fletch. Pawniard was more a staple, for obvious reasons, in the Missy meta, and I will never associate Timburr specifically with this meta. Seems arbitrary? It certainly is, but remember we're splitting hairs between a great rank and the top rank here.
Like Avalanches said, Pawn has only gotten better this meta. Its ability to diversify its sets rather than run Scarf on principle is huge, as it's no longer a one-trick-pony. Pawn's unpredictability is big factor as to why it has maintained S Rank, even with one of its apparent niches in beating Missy gone. Dropping it to anything below S Rank wouldn't be representing its effect on the meta properly imo
Also T Wave/Taunt Pawn is god (you're welcome ;))
Also T Wave/Taunt Pawn is god (you're welcome ;))
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
What the flernt are you talking about,,,
lemme address different parts of this to pick out everything that's wrong with/ odd about this statement.
"I think the issue we're having is an inability to define what the criteria is for each tier." ~ Look, we have this defining thing down. S-Rank Pokemon should be pokemon that either perform one USEFUL job better above all else because of a combination of good traits (Mienfoo as a bulky pivot with regenerator), able to perform multiple useful roles very well (BW2 LC Misdreavus/Murkrow), performing a single dangerous sweeping/offensive role outstandingly well that not many other pokes could dream of matching up to (Swords Dance Fletchling), being a defensive behemoth that walls a good portion of the tier and has a good support characteristic (Ex: BW2 Doubles Cresselia & Hitmontop (sorry for the obscure reference but the power creep in XY has made it so like no defensive mons are s-rank) or having great strength within huge versatility that effects/shapes the metagame around different counters to different sets with a mix of one of the former 4/5 mentioned (The previously banned swirlix, murkrow, and meditite)
(Btw lc guys feel free to correct me becos im tired typing this up but thats p much all i could think of)
My opinions on Timburr up to S at the moment are on the fence. I really like Timburr in this meta and understand it has the potential to sweep the crap out of a lot of unprepared teams. On the other hand, I also feel like timburr is easily broken down, as it's usually used as a knock off switchin versus popular mons like pawniard who traditional knock off sponges like spritzee wouldn't dare switch into, making it easy to hit hard and wear down. Although Timburr checks a crapton of stuff so it's also good in that right. I personally don't have a strong opinion on this guy until I eventually end up using him again so to each his own.
Pawniard should stay S because pawniard is able to perform multiple useful roles very well. For those who have seen my RMT, Kaleidoscope, I have extensively tested Swords Dance Pawniard and can conclude that Pawniard isn't just a good sweeper, but also can be a: Good early-game Disruptor w/ knock off, Defog Blocker with defiant, and a check against offensive teams with its plethora of useful resistances and naturally strong sucker punch. That's only the Swords Dance set. Not to mention pawn can run a life orb set that just about 2HKO's the whole metagame, The Life Orb SD set which is basically gg against any team without defensive hippo, tauntfoo, or timburr. It also has the Scarf Set, and finally, the berry juice support set that I've had relative success with. Most of pawniard's sets are dangerous, pretty much all of them are viable, and they most certainly do influence the metagame *cough* timburr *cough*
"For me, this meta will be defined by Abra lazily stopping sweeps and therefore causing safe momentum teams including Chou, Foo, and Fletch." ~ Momentum teams...do you mean VoltTurn? Because If you don't idk if it's the sleep wearin on me or what but i have no idea what a "mometum team" is.Another thing, Abra doesn't just fly into battle and lazily stop sweeps. I don't see where you get this idea that you can just sack a mon, send in abra, and autokill a sweep. Abra is not the anti-sweeper able to defeat every single one with a swipe of it's mental hand. Corphish, CM Spritzee, Smash Tirt, Smash Dweebel, and Bulk Up timburr can take a psychic from sash iirc and retaliate with drain punch+mach punch or Knock off+mach punch depending on how setup it is. Abra is a safety net, yes. It is a very good one, yes. But does abra just stop any sweep to ever happen ever? No.
"Pawniard was more a staple, for obvious reasons, in the Missy meta." ~ This is implying because pawniard was used a lot to check missy that it was somehow better in this stage of the meta??? No, just the scarf set was better in that age of the meta. Pawniard's viability doesn't drop just because one of it's sets falls out of relevance due to a banning when his other sets are just as good in their own rights for their own roles. Sure you could argue this for a mon as one-dimensional as, say, spritzee, but pawniard is not limited to just holding a choice scarf lol.
continue discussing im just here :]
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I understand what the criteria are but it's more difficult in practice applying it to actual pokemon. i read
Momentum teams are volt-turn teams, it was a named used at one point, maybe obscure now, my bad, but aren't volt-turn teams there for momentum?
About abra:
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
so no it doesnt live psychic unless you're IVing it to, Corphish a good mon but not a sweeper (unless I'm wrong but i dont think i am), it's been proven that Tirt and Dwebble beat abra, CM Spritzee is dealt with by other things. And pretty much the rest of the tier gets boned deterring setup because there is no way to break the sash without luring it out twice.
and thought "Bulk Up Timburr", which is dangerous, unique (other bulk up mons?), and outstanding, bar Spritzee or Foo (but your example is beaten by chou and archen). Then later you seem unsure if Timburr is S-tier or not when according to the criteria which you have "down" it is. Thank you for giving an ironclad statement which you show a flaw in about 4 sentences later.GlassGlaceon said:
Momentum teams are volt-turn teams, it was a named used at one point, maybe obscure now, my bad, but aren't volt-turn teams there for momentum?
About abra:
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
so no it doesnt live psychic unless you're IVing it to, Corphish a good mon but not a sweeper (unless I'm wrong but i dont think i am), it's been proven that Tirt and Dwebble beat abra, CM Spritzee is dealt with by other things. And pretty much the rest of the tier gets boned deterring setup because there is no way to break the sash without luring it out twice.
If you read the post I didn't say Pawn was worse I was saying it is less metagame-defining now without Missy to check, pretty much the reason I'd move it to A+. Are you saying you see more Pawns now than in the missy meta or that pawn is the central pokemon of this meta for you?
Corphish is a great sweeper, I don't know what you've been seeing, but generally, SD and DD are 2 of its best sets that can easily sweep through teams.
Anyways, onto your Pawniard arguments....
Usage =/= Viability. If it did, Aipom would be the fuckin king of LC. Just because we may not see Pawn as much (I don't know the exact usage stats, but I feel that Pawn is just as omnipresent as it was in the Missy meta) doesn't mean it isn't deserving of S Rank anymore. It fits the definition of S Rank perfectly--aka being able to perform multiple roles extremely well and having very little opportunity cost. When teambuilding, I find it much harder to account for Pawn nowadays than I did with Missy around, since I now have to take into account the multiple, equally viable and threatening sets it can run. Really, there is no reason to drop this thing--it's better than ever.
lol BU Timburr sweeping is soooo gen 5. Even with a boost it loses to some stuff, and has a fair bit of issues in the meta overall. Momentum is as important as ever, and Timburr does a really good job at stopping that, which is great. However, it also is kind of a momentum killer for your team as well, which definitely sucks. Also not much S Pokemon ever have a competition with other mons, which is something timburr has. just a couple mini-nonfleshed out points im gonna say while im at my orphanage
I know my post quality is dropping i just want 1k pls :D
I know my post quality is dropping i just want 1k pls :D
I personally like running 76 HP / 36 Atk / 156 Def / 236 SpD with Careful on Timburr for the specific purpose of being able to survive SashBra's Psychic even after you take as much damage as SR + Spikes. You also survive Fletchling's Acrobatics after SR damage. Attack is an overrated EV investment on mons like Timburr and Ponyta because you have a lot of HP regen, so more defenses really helps with effective HP pool. Eviolite makes defense and special defense investments inherently stronger anyway, 36 Atk EVs is plenty enough to still be a threat.
TBH I don't know why Pawniard or Fletchling are S tier at all, Defog isn't used as much anymore and Missy is gone. Only thing Pawn is exceptionally good at is probably best offensive SR setter and being a strong switch in to Porygon, Vullaby, etc. Fletchling just isn't strong enough in terms of stats to me to be S tier. Meh base attack, crap defenses especially with negative Sdef nature, gets outsped by other priority a lot. Fletchling is A+ material no doubt, but S tier means absolute consistency and strength to me, and that's something that only Mienfoo fits in my opinion.
I dunno, it might have to do with Pawn's sweeping/support potential wrapped in one, or that fletch is the best cleaner in the game and can also fill lure and sweeper roles.
Fletchling is weak, yes. But it's ability to stop countless Pokemon because of its priority makes it one of the most metagame-defining and annoying to-face pokemon. when considering a sweeper, unless you resist flying, you have to work out a way to remove fletchling from the game. just having fletchling in a team causes issues for the opponent.
Pawniard is also pretty metagame defining, and Swords Dance is a really good sweeper atm. Scarf is as good as ever, and often sweeps late game. STAB Knock Off is just so strong and useful that it's very worthy of S rank.
When I see Timburr on an opposing team, yeah it's a threat, but it's not something that causes as many issues as these 2 Pokemon.
Mienfoo and Chinchou are massive issues for the opposing team, mainly because Mienfoo doesn't die, knocks stuff off AND keeps momentum (I'd argue timburr doesn't give the team much momentum). And chinchou just walls/checks countless Pokemon, whilst being the best momentum gainer in the metagame and is decently powerful with hydro pump and annoying as fuck with scald
Pawniard is also pretty metagame defining, and Swords Dance is a really good sweeper atm. Scarf is as good as ever, and often sweeps late game. STAB Knock Off is just so strong and useful that it's very worthy of S rank.
When I see Timburr on an opposing team, yeah it's a threat, but it's not something that causes as many issues as these 2 Pokemon.
Mienfoo and Chinchou are massive issues for the opposing team, mainly because Mienfoo doesn't die, knocks stuff off AND keeps momentum (I'd argue timburr doesn't give the team much momentum). And chinchou just walls/checks countless Pokemon, whilst being the best momentum gainer in the metagame and is decently powerful with hydro pump and annoying as fuck with scald
I dont see how chinchou is the best momentum gainer considering the omnipresence of ground types and opposing chinchou and even porygon that stop it from spamming volt switch. Using it often turns into a lot of 50/50s 50 percent of the time u get momentum and the other half u lose it
What even there are like two ground types lol
Also just because two pokemon can come in and ruin volt switch it doesnt mean chou good at grabbing momentum
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