Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[SomeKidFromJohto]

I have been out of the metagame for a while now, for a month, I got bored of the OU metagame so I just started fooling around with Cry and Gourgiest in the 1500s-1600s.

So if someone can quickly explain while Greninja is at S, Rhyperior at B, Mega Zam at B+, and Mega Heracross at A+ (I mean its A material, but A+ along with Exca and over Mega T-tar and Mega Gyarados is a bit absurd to me)

Aside from that everything makes sense. (Well Diggersby at A- is a bit eh to me too). Would be really appreciated.

Also I want to do one thing:

Nominating Cryogonal for somewhere between C and B (Not sure)

Now this may makes absolutely no sense to you, but I have to say Cry has been amazing for me, here's what it does:

- Counter Greninja (252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Cryogonal: 153-181 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
- Counter Gliscor, Mega Venu, Politoed, Quagsire, Suicune, Hippowdon (W/o Rock Slide / Stone Edge), Starmie (W/o Psyshock) Landorus and Thundurus
- Check Garchomp, Slowbro, Amoonguss, Kingdra, Dragonite, Mandibuzz and Landorus-T
- Check weakened Keldeo, Latios, Latias, Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, Manaphy, Staraptor, Rhyperior.
- Reliably Rapid Spin on many threats
- Recover

These are the most common pokemons and most viable (B to S) that it can check/counter.

With Recover and its fast speed, its a reliable Spinner. I used Freeze Dry / Recover / Rapid Spin / Ice Beam or HP Ground with 248 HP / 24 SpA / 4 SpD / 232+ Spe

Now this may look weak, and while it is, it can surprisingly hit hard enough to revenge kill things like Mega Pinsir / Latios and also bulky enough to completely counter Thundurus, Landorus and HP Fire-less Greninja, prolly the 3 most common mons on HO.

Well, I'll give briefly explaining those ranks a shot: (if I leave anyting out, I'm sure someone else will fill in the blanks for you)
-Gren rose to S mainly because of spikes, honestly. Spikes gives gren the ability to wear down it's counters and still do it's normal job of omni-STABbing everything, which gave it the ability to support itself, which let it rose to S.
-Rhyperior rose to B for being the best birdspam counter, hands down. It's ridiculous physical bulk lets it switch into talonflame, pinsir, or staraptor, and wreck their stuff like nothing else can.
-Megazam rose because of Trace, mostly. It can come in on sand rush/swift swim users and still outspeed, for instance. This gives it the ability to hard counter even stuff like heatran by tracing flash fire, or the ability to annoy intimidate users, most of which are physical and won't appreciate that getting bounced back at them. All of this on top of a supreme speed and special attack lets megazam do a lot of damage against the right team.
-Mega Hera rose along with mega medi and mega gard after the aegislash ban as one of the three premier mega wallbreakers. Hera is one of the more favored ones right now for it's ability to slam just about anything for ridiculous damage after a SD, and for being the bulkiest choice out of those three.
-And as for Diggersby, one of the main reasons it rose is because of the very effective double bunny core that people have been using featuring diggs and azumarill. They can help wear down each others' checks and counters very effectively, making it a solid offensive core.

Hopefully that will clear things up a bit, and like I said, if I was too brief with that, I'm sure someone will post a more detailed explanation if you're still confused.

As far as Cryogonal goes, I'm not sure. For one thing, it definitely shouldn't start at C or B, that's ridiculous. Start by nomming for D, then go from there. I will say that I have faced a few cryogonals on stall teams, and they were actually decently effective, as being a pretty fast rapid spin/recover user with decent special bulk allows it to take on some pretty key threats. But being SR weak and having ZERO physical defense isn't good, plus Ice is lackluster defensively at best. It does check a bunch of threatening pokemon, such as the ones you mentioned, but it's also easy to contain, as it's frailty to omnipresent threats such as talon's BB or Dragonite's extremespeed make it hard to use outside of full stall teams with answers to those pokemon. Additionally, it's actually weak to other common forms of priority in mach punch and bullet punch, so most teams are going to have a 100% effective cryogonal check/counter. I think that cry's niche might be enough to get D rank, but definitely not C or B.

 

[Albacore]

After having thought about this a while and discussed this with Poek97 (who's writing its analysis so he knows what he's talking about), I'm starting to think Doubalde should drop back to C+. The metagame has started to become unfavorable towards it recently, what with the rise of Crawdaunt (who completely ruins it), Knock off MPinsir, Bisharp (yes I know Doubalde has Sacred Sword but Bisharp is still a solid check), Gengar, Garchomp, Diggersby etc... The big problem with Doublade is that, unless you're facing one of the 5 or so things it walls, it's complete and utter deadweight throughout the entire match. And a couple of the things it's supposed to beat it doesn't even counter that well. For instance, MGarde does a good chunk of damage with Hyper Voice, which means that if it gets forced out without being able to get health back, it can't come back in again. Latios and Latias also do quite a bit of damage with Draco Meteor and can HP Fire it with ease. Add that to the fact that Doublade is ridiculously easy to wear down and you often end up having to pack a secondary MGarde switchin, and another Latios counter too. Doubalde's ability to wall certain things is kinda overstated IMO, especially since it also needs a lot support to consistently beat some of these threats, and you often spend your time trying to get a Heal Bell off or pass a wish to it which the opponent can easily play around. Doublade is also very easily taken advantage of by pretty much 70% of the tier, and can become a liability very easily. Yes, it still beats these huge threats and is pretty much required on stall and everything and that's great, but as a standalone Pokemon, it has so many gaping flaws that I have a hard time seeing it in B-, especially given that the metagame is now aware of its presence on stall teams and is working its way round it.

Oh yeah and we're not ranking Cryagonal lol, it doesn't even beat half of the things you said it beats. Using your own spread, it can't even switch in on Greninja after rocks (and given that it's your spinner, it'll be switching in on rocks a lot) and can be 2HKO'd by HP Fire (which most of them run) even without that. Even disregarding SR, MVenu just spams Sludge Bomb until poison while taking around 25% from Ice Beam so I don't see how Cryagonal counters it, Suicune sets up on it, Landorus literally OHKOs with Focus Blast, Thundurus can outspeed and 2HKO with TBolt+Focus Blast or OHKO with Superpower, Dragonite can KO it with Banded or +1 ESpeed and Cryagonal can't switch in on any move or OHKO it if Multiscale is intact, Latios and Latias outspeed and OHKO with Psyshock, AV Azumarill needs to be weakened to the point of near death (less than 33%) to get KO'd by Freeze Dry, and no matter how weakened it is, MPinsir murders it if it's at +2 or heck, even wins the speed tie.
Avalugg is way better than Cryagonal and we didn't rank that. Literally Cryagonal's only niche I can think of is spinning on Spikes Greninja, and that's not enough to be ranked or ever be used over Starmie.

 

[kabbes]

Alright, I've changed my mind about Lanturn. I've been playing a lot with a RestTalk set (and yes, with leftovers!) and this thing is the nuts. Rest makes all the difference, giving it actual longevity, which it otherwise lacks. And it's bulky enough that few things can deny it the opportunity to rest. Meanwhile, sleep talk has a 2/3 chance to activate scald or volt switch, meaning you either pivot or have that sexy 30% burn chance against anything scald itself isn't supereffective against. It's a stally bastard.

I just wasn't expecting this Lanturn to wall so many pokemon. For a start, it's a superb answer to all forms of Talonflame, on top of its usual electric-checking duties. Partner it with bulky Talonflame and nothing hits both super effectively. RestTalk Lanturn has done so much heavy lifting for me, not only do I think that its C rating is actually justified after all, I would actually support it at C+.

I know people are probably tired of talking about Lanturn at this point, but I wanted to close it off from my perspective, since I have been doing so much testing of it.

 

[alexwolf]

The only move on Dnite thats powerful enough to be used for wallbreaking is Outrage, your not going to break anything with EQ or Firepunch, hopefully i dont have to explain why having to lock yourself into Outrage is far worse than just clicking Sacred Fire and watch something die/burn? Talonflame has an even bigger SR weakness, Swift swimmers and Exca can only clean lategame with weather support and Hawlucha... well i dont wanna talk about that, will just derail the thread.
The only one of them that is comparable to Entei is Dnite who is SR weak as well, due to multiscale even worse, cant wallbreak as well with its reliance on Outrage and, imo thats the biggest point, is 4 x weak to Ice. Considering how many good mons in the meta have an Ice weakness you usually have to to dismiss some of them in favour of Dnite or stack ice weaks to no end. Lando-T and Latis are staples on most teams, thats already 2 ice weaks, one of them 4x. That fact alone makes Entei far more appealing compared to Dnite, at least to me.

What makes Weavile or Crawdaunt more effective? Weavile is frail as fuck, ohkoed by basicly everything and not even that powerful its just a bad physical version of Greninja. Crawdaunt hits hard but is frail and slow as hell and therefore has a very hard time coming in and setting up. Entei just needs a chance to come in and can start spamming his stab move to nuke things.

I would pick Entei if i am looking for a wallbreaker who has some value against offensive teams as well and is not a Mega. There isnt much competition in that category, its basicly just Lando-I, Dnite and probably Keldeo.

Even if i were to agree that Dragonite outclasses Entei in everything, we re not discussing Entei to move up to A, its not even about moving him to B which would still be a whole rank below Dnite, its about moving him to C+.

You can mention the cons of all the late-game cleaners i mentioned all you want, but at the end of the day, they are still way better at their job than Entei. Both Talonflame and Dragonite are comparable to Entei, because both are strong physical attackers with priority. Dragonite makes up for having to rely on Outrage for power with its excellent coverage, which makes most Steel-types and some other checks think twice before switching in. Azumarill gets OHKOed by ThunderPunch, Ferrothorn by Fire Punch, Heatran by Earthquake / Superpower, Mega Scizor by Fire Punch, etc, so walling Dragonite is not easy at all, in fact it's much harder than walling Entei. Dragonite being Ice weak being a big con because other good Pokemon are also weak to Ice is a really bad excuse for using Entei over Dragonite. Entei has very common weaknesses too you, namely Ground and Water, and there are a ton of excellent Pokemon that share those weaknesses, so your point is moot.

What makes Crawdaunt and Weavile more effective? They are more reliable or less outclassed in what they do. Name another Pursuit user with 125 Speed, one that can beat the majority of offensive Pokemon, and also has Ice-type priority. Weavile's Speed, great coverage, decent power, and priority make it a pain in the ass to face for many offensive teams, and even for some balanced teams if it carries Pursuit. Focusing on Weavile's frailty is like focusing on Greninja's frailty to justify why it's bad, so i hope i don't even have to explain why your reasoning makes no sense. Crawdaunt is a very effective wallbreaker that needs zero support to do its job, but has problems against offensive teams because of it's frailty and because it's so slow, making it very match up dependent.

Finally, Entei is not even a good wallbreaker because of its plethora of checks and counters that are everywhere, and it doesn't deserve to be in B- not only because it's outclassed by Pokemon such as Talonflame and Dragonite, but also because it's not on par with the other offensive Pokemon in B-.

 

[Baharoth]

Azumarill gets OHKOed by ThunderPunch, Ferrothorn by Fire Punch, Heatran by Earthquake / Superpower, Mega Scizor by Fire Punch, etc, so walling Dragonite is not easy at all, in fact it's much harder than walling Entei.

And everytime you misspredict you give a free turn since all these moves do basicly nothing unless they hit SE. So yeah in a world where you always predict right, Dragonite might be harder to wall. Enteis big sellingpoint is that he doesnt have to rely on prediction that much as it hurts pretty much everything with its stab move alone. Its similar to the Lando-I vs Chari Y issue.

I could address your other points as well but honestly there is no point. We could go on with this for ever and wouldnt get to an aggreement and my oppinion doesnt matter anyway at the end of the day so i will save myself the trouble and hope that some of the other council members have experience with it and think its worth its B- rank.

 

[AM]

After having thought about this a while and discussed this with Poek97 (who's writing its analysis so he knows what he's talking about), I'm starting to think Doubalde should drop back to C+. The metagame has started to become unfavorable towards it recently, what with the rise of Crawdaunt (who completely ruins it), Knock off MPinsir, Bisharp (yes I know Doubalde has Sacred Sword but Bisharp is still a solid check), Gengar, Garchomp, Diggersby etc... The big problem with Doublade is that, unless you're facing one of the 5 or so things it walls, it's complete and utter deadweight throughout the entire match. And a couple of the things it's supposed to beat it doesn't even counter that well. For instance, MGarde does a good chunk of damage with Hyper Voice, which means that if it gets forced out without being able to get health back, it can't come back in again. Latios and Latias also do quite a bit of damage with Draco Meteor and can HP Fire it with ease. Add that to the fact that Doublade is ridiculously easy to wear down and you often end up having to pack a secondary MGarde switchin, and another Latios counter too. Doubalde's ability to wall certain things is kinda overstated IMO, especially since it also needs a lot support to consistently beat some of these threats, and you often spend your time trying to get a Heal Bell off or pass a wish to it which the opponent can easily play around. Doublade is also very easily taken advantage of by pretty much 70% of the tier, and can become a liability very easily. Yes, it still beats these huge threats and is pretty much required on stall and everything and that's great, but as a standalone Pokemon, it has so many gaping flaws that I have a hard time seeing it in B-, especially given that the metagame is now aware of its presence on stall teams and is working its way round it.

Doublade is hit by a huge chunk from M-Gard and Latios....when it's not running special defense. When it does though M-Gard needs 4 Hyper Voices to actually beat it when Timid and has only a 2% chance with modest nature for a 3HKO. If Latios isn't running HP Fire, it won't beat Doublade even with Earthquake at its disposable. Doublade for the most part is customizable on stall teams to better handle specific threats you want it to wall. It isn't exactly deadweight because it's designed to be a consistent answer to things such as M-Heracross and M-Cham anyways, barring Fire Punch even though your spread can be tailored to handle that as well. Its consistency I find is similar to Azelf who is in the same rank because the role it excels at which is generally a lead in Azelf's case and walling/being a buffer to some key threats in the meta in Doublade's case, warrants itself as a B- ranked mon. Doublade also isn't just for walling some key threats, it's also used as a pivot on stall teams for double switches, scouting, and forcing the players hand to a switch which mitigates the issue you speak of recovery when running Rest. The support that is required for Doublade isn't that hard to implement considering the nature of the archetype it resides in, where maintaining longevity and recovery is something that Doublade can provide as a small tool to the team for more opportunities to accomplish this. These statements are generally judging off the C rank criteria and as far as the last part about facing competition with more commonly used pokemon, it really doesn't cause nothing actually walls the big 3, think Hera, Garde, and Cham, among others all in one package. I can't even comfortably look at Doublade being in C+ when its niche is much more suitable under the B- rank anyways.

 

[Albacore]

Doublade is hit by a huge chunk from M-Gard and Latios....when it's not running special defense. When it does though M-Gard needs 4 Hyper Voices to actually beat it when Timid and has only a 2% chance with modest nature for a 3HKO. If Latios isn't running HP Fire, it won't beat Doublade even with Earthquake at its disposable. Doublade for the most part is customizable on stall teams to better handle specific threats you want it to wall. It isn't exactly deadweight because it's designed to be a consistent answer to things such as M-Heracross and M-Cham anyways, barring Fire Punch even though your spread can be tailored to handle that as well. Its consistency I find is similar to Azelf who is in the same rank because the role it excels at which is generally a lead in Azelf's case and walling/being a buffer to some key threats in the meta in Doublade's case, warrants itself as a B- ranked mon. Doublade also isn't just for walling some key threats, it's also used as a pivot on stall teams for double switches, scouting, and forcing the players hand to a switch which mitigates the issue you speak of recovery when running Rest. The support that is required for Doublade isn't that hard to implement considering the nature of the archetype it resides in, where maintaining longevity and recovery is something that Doublade can provide as a small tool to the team for more opportunities to accomplish this. These statements are generally judging off the C rank criteria and as far as the last part about facing competition with more commonly used pokemon, it really doesn't cause nothing actually walls the big 3, think Hera, Garde, and Cham, among others all in one package. I can't even comfortably look at Doublade being in C+ when its niche is much more suitable under the B- rank anyways.

Well obviously it runs SpD, if it doesn't MGarde just beats it. But even so, MGarde does around 33% with Hyper Voice, and although that might seem acceptable for most defensive Pokemon, Doublade's reliance on Wish and Rest makes this a problem. For instance, say you switch into Mgarde once and Gyro Ball or Toxic the switch-in that can OHKO you from there or remove your Eviolite, something like Keldeo or Azumarill or Bisharp or Gengar or Offensive Heatran etc... So now, you're forced out, and can't switch back in on unless you manage to pass a wish to it or Rest off until it comes in again. Personally, I've used Doublade quite a bit, and I've found myself in this situation very often. The fact of the matter is, you pretty much cannot have Doublade as your only switchin to MGarde, I'd like to make that clear since a lot of people seem to think you can just put Doublade on a team and not have worry about MGarde.

As for Doublade acting as a pivot, that's partially true, however it's not really a good pivot. You typically want your pivots to either be hard to switch into hard to wear down. Doublade is neither : in fact, it's the exact opposite of both of these. It usually does end up pivoting into things, but only by default. Since it's usually the least important member of your team, it's also the one you typically send in to take some random powerful hit to spare the rest of your team. And while "death fodder" is't really that bad of a role on Stall, it's a role Doublade ends up filling far too frequently. Again, provided with the right support it walls scary things, and it is irreplaceable for what it does, but individually, it's really not as good as most people think it is.

Oh, and there's one major difference between Azelf and Doublade : Azelf is pretty much always useful, is consistent at doing what it's supposed to do, and needs no support to properly provide support of its own, 3 qualities Doublade lacks.

Edit b/c of below : Latis can't take 2 Modest Fire Blasts after SR, can't OHKO back, and can't switch in consistently unless they run Roost which is, from my experience, pretty hard to fit and leads to ther problems like Ferrothorn walling you unless you can somehow fit both HP Fire and Roost, so I wouldn't really call them YZard counters.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't agree with Weavile moving up. It still gives too many good mons free switch-ins and it's very easy to scare out/check (which isn't good when you're weak to SR and run Life Orb). It's not even a good Pursuit trapper because it can't switch into the things it wants to trap directly due to piss-poor bulk, and if its target decides to stay in Weavile will more than likely die without accomplishing much.

I'd also like to bring up dropping Zard-Y. Compared to Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir it needs significantly more support and has counters that aren't niche (the Latis, who also happen to be everywhere), making it way easier to switch into.

 

[Alfalfa]

Well obviously it runs SpD, if it doesn't MGarde just beats it. But even so, MGarde does around 33% with Hyper Voice, and although that might seem acceptable for most defensive Pokemon, Doublade's reliance on Wish and Rest makes this a problem. For instance, say you switch into Mgarde once and Gyro Ball or Toxic the switch-in that can OHKO you from there or remove your Eviolite, something like Keldeo or Azumarill or Bisharp or Gengar or Offensive Heatran etc... So now, you're forced out, and can't switch back in on unless you manage to pass a wish to it or Rest off until it comes in again. Personally, I've used Doublade quite a bit, and I've found myself in this situation very often. The fact of the matter is, you pretty much cannot have Doublade as your only switchin to MGarde, I'd like to make that clear since a lot of people seem to think you can just put Doublade on a team and not have worry about MGarde.

As for Doublade acting as a pivot, that's partially true, however it's not really a good pivot. You typically want your pivots to either be hard to switch into hard to wear down. Doublade is neither : in fact, it's the exact opposite of both of these. It usually does end up pivoting into things, but only by default. Since it's usually the least important member of your team, it's also the one you typically send in to take some random powerful hit to spare the rest of your team. And while "death fodder" is't really that bad of a role on Stall, it's a role Doublade ends up filling far too frequently. Again, provided with the right support it walls scary things, and it is irreplaceable for what it does, but individually, it's really not as good as most people think it is.

Oh, and there's one major difference between Azelf and Doublade : Azelf is pretty much always useful, is consistent at doing what it's supposed to do, and needs no support to properly provide support of its own, 3 qualities Doublade lacks.

Doublade is not perfect, but its ability to check threats that would normally steamroll right over stall is why it is in B- rank. Obviously it gets worn down faster than other mons, but that is why you have teammates.

 

[D3CON]

I'd also like to bring up dropping Zard-Y. Compared to Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir it needs significantly more support and has counters that aren't niche (the Latis, who also happen to be everywhere), making it way easier to switch into.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Sun: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

They can't even KO in return with Latios doing- 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 246-290 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And if lati@s doesnt attack back and tries to recover off damage, it can be easily pursuit trapped by TTars or Bisharps. I think Zard y is still a worry for most players if they see it in team preview, as HO finds it extremely hard to switch into fire blast + solar beam, and stall usually has to make sure their check doesnt fall too low. Yes zard needs more support than other, but defoggers and spinners are very easy to fit on teams. Pursuiters aren't too hard to put on either, scarf ttar has risen is usage considerably tbh.

Im a bit on the fence for its A+, but i don't think its quite an easy call as you make it out to be :/

 

[Rosen]

I don't agree with Weavile moving up. It still gives too many good mons free switch-ins and it's very easy to scare out/check (which isn't good when you're weak to SR and run Life Orb). It's not even a good Pursuit trapper because it can't switch into the things it wants to trap directly due to piss-poor bulk, and if its target decides to stay in Weavile will more than likely die without accomplishing much.

I'd also like to bring up dropping Zard-Y. Compared to Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir it needs significantly more support and has counters that aren't niche (the Latis, who also happen to be everywhere), making it way easier to switch into.

"not a good pursuit trapper"

bisharp takes like 50% from Draco Meteor and it's slower than p much everything it wants to trap, and has to rely on prediction to do it successfully. you predict they gon switch out, great, you kill it. you don't go for the sucker punch, though, and you could very well die to an eq, hp fighting, focus blast, or the could get a sub up, whereas weavile doesn't have to worry bout that cuz it outspeeds 100% of everything it's supposed to trap and once weavile's in they gon die regardless. weavile isn't a "switch in to attacks nd wreck face" mon like azumarill or scarftar, it's a "get a free switch in and murder the shit it's supposed to mon," and DAMN does it do a fine job of that

 

[Karxrida]

"not a good pursuit trapper"

bisharp takes like 50% from Draco Meteor and it's slower than p much everything it wants to trap, and has to rely on prediction to do it successfully. you predict they gon switch out, great, you kill it. you go for the sucker punch, though, and you could very well die to an eq, hp fighting, focus blast, or the could get a sub up, whereas weavile doesn't have to worry bout that cuz it outspeeds 100% of everything it's supposed to trap and once weavile's in they gon die regardless. weavile isn't a "switch in to attacks nd wreck face" mon like azumarill or scarftar, it's a "get a free switch in and murder the shit it's supposed to mon," and DAMN does it do a fine job of that

Bisharp can still switch in (and Assault Vest is a legit set btw) and even if it dies it's at least stopped a Defog from Lati@s, the only thing people are trying to trap nowadays (Gengar's a crapshoot due to Sub and Will-O). Bisharp's the one put in all of those cores in the Good Cores thread because it is better overall.

EDIT: Weavile has to predict correctly too, since Lati@s deciding to stay in as it Pursuits means you have a dead Weavile.

 

[Srn]

Well obviously it runs SpD, if it doesn't MGarde just beats it. But even so, MGarde does around 33% with Hyper Voice, and although that might seem acceptable for most defensive Pokemon, Doublade's reliance on Wish and Rest makes this a problem. For instance, say you switch into Mgarde once and Gyro Ball or Toxic the switch-in that can OHKO you from there or remove your Eviolite, something like Keldeo or Azumarill or Bisharp or Gengar or Offensive Heatran etc... So now, you're forced out, and can't switch back in on unless you manage to pass a wish to it or Rest off until it comes in again. Personally, I've used Doublade quite a bit, and I've found myself in this situation very often. The fact of the matter is, you pretty much cannot have Doublade as your only switchin to MGarde, I'd like to make that clear since a lot of people seem to think you can just put Doublade on a team and not have worry about MGarde.

As for Doublade acting as a pivot, that's partially true, however it's not really a good pivot. You typically want your pivots to either be hard to switch into hard to wear down. Doublade is neither : in fact, it's the exact opposite of both of these. It usually does end up pivoting into things, but only by default. Since it's usually the least important member of your team, it's also the one you typically send in to take some random powerful hit to spare the rest of your team. And while "death fodder" is't really that bad of a role on Stall, it's a role Doublade ends up filling far too frequently. Again, provided with the right support it walls scary things, and it is irreplaceable for what it does, but individually, it's really not as good as most people think it is.

Oh, and there's one major difference between Azelf and Doublade : Azelf is pretty much always useful, is consistent at doing what it's supposed to do, and needs no support to properly provide support of its own, 3 qualities Doublade lacks.

Edit b/c of below : Latis can't take 2 Modest Fire Blasts after SR, can't OHKO back, and can't switch in consistently unless they run Roost which is, from my experience, pretty hard to fit and leads to ther problems like Ferrothorn walling you unless you can somehow fit both HP Fire and Roost, so I wouldn't really call them YZard counters.

First off,
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 82-97 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

So you get 4 tries to get rid of mvoir with some kind of status, hazards, or weak attacks, not factoring in alomomola or jirachi (altho why are you worried about mvoir if u have rachi :P) This isnt' even factoring in rest, and it assumes that mvoir uses nothing but hyper voice, so combined with the fact that its 4hko'd and that you can run rest if you feel like it, OHKO gardevoir with a gyro ball and spread toxic as it switches out, idk what else you really want doublade to do lol. You can very much have doublade as your only switch-in to mvoir and be pretty damn fine against it.

Secondly, about pivots;
Lando-t is easy to switch into and easy to wear down, so I think you're focusing on the wrong points here. What makes doublade is all that combined with the fact that it lacks baton pass/volt switch/u-turn, which is vital for a pivot because a pivot's job is ultimately to grab you momentum. Lando-t can do this with u-turn, despite being easy to switch into and easy to wear down, but doublade cannot ever hope do to that. See the difference?
Besides, its not meant to even be a pivot in the first place, but what else is a mon that you don't need gonna do?

Lastly, you say that doublade fills the role of death fodder far too frequently. But doublade walls so much more than the 3 megas that idk how you can really say this.

what doublade more or less walls

Mega gardevoir
Mega Pinsir
Mega medicham
Mega heracross
Latios
Azumarill (watch out for knock off tho :S)
Breloom
Kyu-b that lack earth power (a lot of them)
Terrakion
Hawlucha
Staraptor
Offensive scolipede (do people still use this lel)

There are not many respectable offensive teams that don't even have ONE of these pokemon, which more or less means doublade will find SOME chance to switch-in and comfortably spread toxic or gyro ball or whatever the fuck it wants to do. It can stay in B-

 

[Poek]

Doublade is hit by a huge chunk from M-Gard and Latios....when it's not running special defense. When it does though M-Gard needs 4 Hyper Voices to actually beat it when Timid and has only a 2% chance with modest nature for a 3HKO. If Latios isn't running HP Fire, it won't beat Doublade even with Earthquake at its disposable. Doublade for the most part is customizable on stall teams to better handle specific threats you want it to wall. It isn't exactly deadweight because it's designed to be a consistent answer to things such as M-Heracross and M-Cham anyways, barring Fire Punch even though your spread can be tailored to handle that as well. Its consistency I find is similar to Azelf who is in the same rank because the role it excels at which is generally a lead in Azelf's case and walling/being a buffer to some key threats in the meta in Doublade's case, warrants itself as a B- ranked mon. Doublade also isn't just for walling some key threats, it's also used as a pivot on stall teams for double switches, scouting, and forcing the players hand to a switch which mitigates the issue you speak of recovery when running Rest. The support that is required for Doublade isn't that hard to implement considering the nature of the archetype it resides in, where maintaining longevity and recovery is something that Doublade can provide as a small tool to the team for more opportunities to accomplish this. These statements are generally judging off the C rank criteria and as far as the last part about facing competition with more commonly used pokemon, it really doesn't cause nothing actually walls the big 3, think Hera, Garde, and Cham, among others all in one package. I can't even comfortably look at Doublade being in C+ when its niche is much more suitable under the B- rank anyways.

It doesn't even matter if Doublade runs Brave or Sassy, Hyper Voice it's still a 3HKO after rocks.
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 93-110 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
It's not even 59'3% because this is what actually happens:
1.- MGarde Hyper Voices the Doublade switchin
2.- MGarde switches to something that can handle a Gyro Ball or Toxic
3.- There is a possible pursuit trap in the process
4.- MGarde comes back again against another defensive mon
5.- Doublade switches into MGarde again, just to get 2HKOed unless Doublade has Shadow Sneak and MGarde has received a bit of prior damage

So basically Doublade is switching two times into rocks, and I know how can you support it with defog/rapid spin but the question is, will you be able to defog/rapid spin at the time MGarde switches again?
The most common playstyle MGarde is in, offense, will most likely not going to let you remove the rocks of your side. Not to mention that spikes are getting popular slowly, because is so easy to make a team that doesn't care about rocks and don't have to pack a defogger/rapid spinner.

Yeah, Doublade can counter MMedi and MHera pretty nicely but vs MGarde it's going to have a hard time, for sure. Not to mention that full stall teams are not in the best moment atm, and the viability rankings should reflect that.

 

[AM]

It doesn't even matter if Doublade runs Brave or Sassy, Hyper Voice it's still a 3HKO after rocks.
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 93-110 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
It's not even 59'3% because this is what actually happens:
1.- MGarde Hyper Voices the Doublade switchin
2.- MGarde switches to something that can handle a Gyro Ball or Toxic
3.- There is a possible pursuit trap in the process
4.- MGarde comes back again against another defensive mon
5.- Doublade switches into MGarde again, just to get 2HKOed unless Doublade has Shadow Sneak and MGarde has received a bit of prior damage

So basically Doublade is switching two times into rocks, and I know how can you support it with defog/rapid spin but the question is, will you be able to defog/rapid spin at the time MGarde switches again?
The most common playstyle MGarde is in, offense, will most likely not going to let you remove the rocks of your side. Not to mention that spikes are getting popular slowly, because is so easy to make a team that doesn't care about rocks and don't have to pack a defogger/rapid spinner.

Yeah, Doublade can counter MMedi and MHera pretty nicely but vs MGarde it's going to have a hard time, for sure. Not to mention that full stall teams are not in the best moment atm, and the viability rankings should reflect that.

These situations are based on a bunch of theorymonning in the favor of Doublade losing out on the battle to try and prove a point against it. I could make a case about Keldeo or any top tier threat being in an unfavorable situation but does it necessarily mean they are not as efficient anymore? You take into consideration both what it can excel at and its flaws however not everything is set in stone and obviously there will be situations where Doublade seems subpar no arguing that. It's a B- ranked mon this would be a totally different situation if someone was asking for a raise but it's asking for a drop based on some things it can't handle that it realistically shouldn't be trying to take on in the first place. Doublade is used as part of a cohesive unit not just a stand alone mon as such with every pokemon available. It's an asset to provide such teams not to get swept or floored by certain threats and theorymonning an unfavorable situation doesn't really justify a drop when these situations can go either way. Yes the viability rankings should reflect the current state of the meta but throwing stall under the bus based solely on the dominance and usage of offense doesn't necessarily mean that stall is a bad archetype to consider. Yes it is definitely not the playstyle that it was at its prime months ago but reflecting that every single stall based mon has lost efficiency is false. There are still good stall builds and players that use stall extremely well even with the amount of offense we see. As such Doublade can definitely be a viable option in good stall builds in the hands of capable players and putting it in the same bracket as the C+ ranked mons is going with the false assumption that it's somehow on par with something like Goodra or Shuckle, which I believe it is not.

 

[alexwolf]

Thx to Andrew, we now have an amazing new logo for the thread!

 

[Kurona]

So Azumarill's the new mascot? ... just as it dropped out of S-rank. Huh.

 

[RotomPoison]

It was mentioned a while back that the lower ranks need a ton of work because they've been ignored through the recent metagame shifts, which is true, and just looking over them now I kind of feel like they really do need a revamp. Before that though, I don't really play stall often, so I don't have a good opinion on Doublade, but on this thread in general. "CRAWDAUNT IS AMAZING IT HAS NO SWITCH INS BUMP RANK PLZ" isn't really what this is about. Moving Pokemon through ranks should be done on either:

1. Comparing that Pokemon to the other Pokemon in its rank or the rank you are proposing it to go to
2. While a bit less set in stone and can be interpreted in mutliple ways, the definitions of these ranks

I prefer the first one though.

Based on that, here are a few things to help revamp the lower ranks, though I'll mention S rank too, a I've seen a few things about it on the last few pages:

S Rank:

Keldeo is so good because its typing and underrated bulk let it act as an excellent check to Pokemon like Bisharp and its Speed is just enough, only relevant things it is outsped by being the Latis, it shouldn't drop regardless of what I said before, because even if its prone to being worn down, that doesn't matter. Unlike Ferrothorn who is useless once it's down to 20%, Keldeo can still switch into SR 3 times at that point and start firing off Specs anything, letting it be a huge offensive threat and check to prominent threats at once. Latios is one of the best offensive Pokemon in the metagame, everyone knows that. Jirachee made a great post on Greninja, which is why it's S. Charizard X has just gotten a bit worse as the meta goes, and if anything it may be the only Pokemon who should drop from S rank

C+ Rank

Gastrodon

Goodra

Infernape

Klefki

Shuckle

Wobbuffet

Magneton is only useful over Magnezone when using it for its Speed, or bulk with Eviolite (don't do this.) Unless someone wants to prove me wrong, Magneton should only be used with a Scarf to outspeed Talonflame and Greninja which Magnezone can't. In that sense, Scarf Magneton > Scarf Magnezone, until you realize that the power actually does make a difference. Scarf Magneton can actually lose to Leech Seed + Protect Ferrothorn if it gets low rolls with HP Fire, and has less bulk than Magnezone, making it a bit more prone to being worn down, and any set other than Scarf is outclassed by Magnezone entirely, so this is a bit of a tough case that someone else with more experience using Magneton should talk about, because I usually use Magnezone over it. Gastrodon is something I see as a bit worse in this meta, as rain is not as dominant (not saying its bad) and at the same time, all Gastrodon does is sit there, maybe throw around Toxic, while even stuff like Seismitoad can set up SR at least. The SpAtk boost is pretty irrelevant cause it's still really weak uninvested. This should drop to C. Webs aren't as good as before, simple as that, Shuckle is just absolute set up bait and isn't good in this meta, drop it too, possibly even to C-. Tangrowth is way too overrated imo but people like alexwolf like it so that's more for them to say. Otherwise, drop Tangrowth too.

C Rank

Absol (Mega)

Aggron (Mega)

Alakazam

Blastoise (Mega)

Bronzong

Ditto

Espeon

Porygon2

Smeargle

Volcarona

Alakazam, Blastoise, Bronzong, Chandelure, Espeon, and Toxicroak don't even deserve C. I don't know if most of them should be ranked even. Regular Alakazam is bad because 1. Mega Alakazam exists and 2. It ends up sacrificing itself to just paralyze the opponents Pokemon then hit it once with a weak move before going own itself. Nice revenge killer. Mega Blastoise is just ouclassed as an attacker and hazard remove by Latios/Latias, Starmie, and Excadrill because of their uses other than spinning, ability to hold an item, and better coverage. Also its really slow and has no recovery and is just a waste. Why would I use this bad role compressor when (wallbreaking mega) + Latios is always better? Unrank Blastoise. Bronzong was never really good, I never really waned it to be ranked even. What does this do outside of TR + Rocks + Boom? TR isn't that good and even then other Pokemon exist for this, Boom only does a little damage to something and wastes your Pokemon. If I wanted to run HO I would sooner use Froslass. At least Diancie can be some mid game Talon check? Chandelure is just like Darmanitan but with some versatility and Shadow Ball. If Wisp + 3 attacks Darmanitan is bad, this is pretty bad too, not to mention it just begs to be trapped by ScarfTar which is the best TTar set out there. Smooth Rock ones don't mind the burn that much and Pursuit still doe a ton, Subbing only wears you down mor than a burned opponent. Unrank this. Espeon is an ok Screens lead and that's all. Not C worthy, C- maybe if that. Toxicroak got some hype after the bans but it's still bad. Nice job still getting OHKOd by offensive Sylv and not OHKOing Clefable. Unrank this.

C- Rank

Exploud

Gourgeist-Small

Froslass

Haxorus

Hydreigon

Ludicolo

Rotom-H

Slowking

Tornadus

Short answer: C for Tornadus, Froslass, Gourgeist-S. D for Ludicolo, Diancie, Haxorus, and Slowking. I've seen good posts on nearly all of these recently.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Blissey

Dugtrio

Seismitoad

Venomoth

Zygarde

Blissey does not prevent you from being 6-0 by Knock Off Landorus because it's only slightly more bulky than Eviolite-less Chansey and is worse every other time, not to mention it takes the Knock Off worse too. People use Cofagrigus??? I also think Dugtrio, regular Heracross, Meloetta, Metagross, Tentacruel, and Venomoth should be unranked for various reasons that should make sense by now.

Hopefully this starts some discussion.

 

[koista12]

It was mentioned a while back that the lower ranks need a ton of work because they've been ignored through the recent metagame shifts, which is true, and just looking over them now I kind of feel like they really do need a revamp. Before that though, I don't really play stall often, so I don't have a good opinion on Doublade, but on this thread in general. "CRAWDAUNT IS AMAZING IT HAS NO SWITCH INS BUMP RANK PLZ" isn't really what this is about. Moving Pokemon through ranks should be done on either:

1. Comparing that Pokemon to the other Pokemon in its rank or the rank you are proposing it to go to
2. While a bit less set in stone and can be interpreted in mutliple ways, the definitions of these ranks

I prefer the first one though.

Based on that, here are a few things to help revamp the lower ranks, though I'll mention S rank too, a I've seen a few things about it on the last few pages:

S Rank:

Keldeo is so good because its typing and underrated bulk let it act as an excellent check to Pokemon like Bisharp and its Speed is just enough, only relevant things it is outsped by being the Latis, it shouldn't drop regardless of what I said before, because even if its prone to being worn down, that doesn't matter. Unlike Ferrothorn who is useless once it's down to 20%, Keldeo can still switch into SR 3 times at that point and start firing off Specs anything, letting it be a huge offensive threat and check to prominent threats at once. Latios is one of the best offensive Pokemon in the metagame, everyone knows that. Jirachee made a great post on Greninja, which is why it's S. Charizard X has just gotten a bit worse as the meta goes, and if anything it may be the only Pokemon who should drop from S rank

C+ Rank

Gastrodon

Goodra

Infernape

Klefki

Shuckle

Wobbuffet

Magneton is only useful over Magnezone when using it for its Speed, or bulk with Eviolite (don't do this.) Unless someone wants to prove me wrong, Magneton should only be used with a Scarf to outspeed Talonflame and Greninja which Magnezone can't. In that sense, Scarf Magneton > Scarf Magnezone, until you realize that the power actually does make a difference. Scarf Magneton can actually lose to Leech Seed + Protect Ferrothorn if it gets low rolls with HP Fire, and has less bulk than Magnezone, making it a bit more prone to being worn down, and any set other than Scarf is outclassed by Magnezone entirely, so this is a bit of a tough case that someone else with more experience using Magneton should talk about, because I usually use Magnezone over it. Gastrodon is something I see as a bit worse in this meta, as rain is not as dominant (not saying its bad) and at the same time, all Gastrodon does is sit there, maybe throw around Toxic, while even stuff like Seismitoad can set up SR at least. The SpAtk boost is pretty irrelevant cause it's still really weak uninvested. This should drop to C. Webs aren't as good as before, simple as that, Shuckle is just absolute set up bait and isn't good in this meta, drop it too, possibly even to C-. Tangrowth is way too overrated imo but people like alexwolf like it so that's more for them to say. Otherwise, drop Tangrowth too.

C Rank

Absol (Mega)

Aggron (Mega)

Alakazam

Blastoise (Mega)

Bronzong

Ditto

Espeon

Porygon2

Smeargle

Volcarona

Alakazam, Blastoise, Bronzong, Chandelure, Espeon, and Toxicroak don't even deserve C. I don't know if most of them should be ranked even. Regular Alakazam is bad because 1. Mega Alakazam exists and 2. It ends up sacrificing itself to just paralyze the opponents Pokemon then hit it once with a weak move before going own itself. Nice revenge killer. Mega Blastoise is just ouclassed as an attacker and hazard remove by Latios/Latias, Starmie, and Excadrill because of their uses other than spinning, ability to hold an item, and better coverage. Also its really slow and has no recovery and is just a waste. Why would I use this bad role compressor when (wallbreaking mega) + Latios is always better? Unrank Blastoise. Bronzong was never really good, I never really waned it to be ranked even. What does this do outside of TR + Rocks + Boom? TR isn't that good and even then other Pokemon exist for this, Boom only does a little damage to something and wastes your Pokemon. If I wanted to run HO I would sooner use Froslass. At least Diancie can be some mid game Talon check? Chandelure is just like Darmanitan but with some versatility and Shadow Ball. If Wisp + 3 attacks Darmanitan is bad, this is pretty bad too, not to mention it just begs to be trapped by ScarfTar which is the best TTar set out there. Smooth Rock ones don't mind the burn that much and Pursuit still doe a ton, Subbing only wears you down mor than a burned opponent. Unrank this. Espeon is an ok Screens lead and that's all. Not C worthy, C- maybe if that. Toxicroak got some hype after the bans but it's still bad. Nice job still getting OHKOd by offensive Sylv and not OHKOing Clefable. Unrank this.

C- Rank

Exploud

Gourgeist-Small

Froslass

Haxorus

Hydreigon

Ludicolo

Rotom-H

Slowking

Tornadus

Short answer: C for Tornadus, Froslass, Gourgeist-S. D for Ludicolo, Diancie, Haxorus, and Slowking. I've seen good posts on nearly all of these recently.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Blissey

Dugtrio

Seismitoad

Venomoth

Zygarde

Blissey does not prevent you from being 6-0 by Knock Off Landorus because it's only slightly more bulky than Eviolite-less Chansey and is worse every other time, not to mention it takes the Knock Off worse too. People use Cofagrigus??? I also think Dugtrio, regular Heracross, Meloetta, Metagross, Tentacruel, and Venomoth should be unranked for various reasons that should make sense by now.

Hopefully this starts some discussion.

Bronzong checks mega Gardevior while also countering sand rush excadrill and any user of EdgeQuake coverage. It can set up screens and rocks as well. I don't have an opinion on its rank, but that's what it does.

 

[Mean Mr Snorlax]

I'd like to suggest Kyurem-Black for A-.

I've found that Cube performs amazingly in this meta. Teravolt is really nice for breaking things like Rotom-W, Dragonite, Mega Venusaur, and Rhyperior. It has ungodly 170/120 offenses and just good enough a movepool to make use of them. Its 125/100/90 defenses are great, and its base 95 speed, while by no means ideal, gives it a decent speed tier. Regardless of set, it can revenge BD Azumarill, Diggersby, Crawdaunt, TG Manaphy (barring Wacan sets), and (Mega-)Gyarados lacking Stone Edge.

The scarf set can revenge all kinds of shit, like Adamant Charizard-X and Dragonite (even when multiscale is intact) after a DD, Mega Pinsir, SD Garchomp, SD Terrakion, and Lucario that lack Bullet Punch. Scarf also lets it beat Keldeo, Lati@s, and Scarf Landorus-T. Besides R-Killing all kinds of threats, late game it can just come in and clean up by spamming Outrage.

A set that I think is really underrated is an Assault Vest set. I've been using this a lot lately and it has been working wonders. This allows it to easily take on shit like Greninja, Mega Manectric, Raikou, LO Gengar, Landorus-I , Thundurus (can't switch in on Focus Blast from these three, other attacks no problem and can take a focus blast if it gets in safe), and Omastar (can't switch in on Shell Smash sets, but can take a hit and KO back, even after Rocks: +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem-B in Rain: 256-302 (63.5 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock), and Mega Charizard Y (Can only switch in on Solar Beam)

With the current Metagame overflowing with Greninja, Gengar, Electrics, and Rain, being able to check (Counter in the case of Greninja and the Electrics bar Thundy) the above threats all with one pokemon is amazing. Also, if a set of Fusion Bolt/Ice Beam/Earth Power/Iron Head is used (which IMO is optimal) Mega-Gardevoir, Clefable, Mamoswine, Weavile (barring Low Kick), and Sylveon can be beaten.

Other sets such as Sub + 3 Attacks and LO Roost + 3 Attacks also seem pretty damn good but I haven't used them enough to really comment.

Now, Cube does have its fair share of problems, such as a generally bad defensive typing, an SR weakness, and a somewhat middling speed tier, but all the support it really needs to do its job well is Spin/Defog support, which most teams can provide with little cost.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

To me, that describes Cube very well. It beats mons that are really common in the current meta, needs very little support to do so outside of SR removal, and its prowess at what it does easily compensates for its flaws.

I think Cube is easily on par with some other A- mons, like Manaphy and Mega Aerodactyl, and I certainly think it is better than some other B+ mons like Alomomola and Celebi in the current Metagame.

 

[alexwolf]

RotomPoison i am going to address some of your concerns about the low ranks Pokemon:

I agree about Shuckle, Webs offense is pretty shitty, but some people seem to like it. Would like to see some discussion on this.

ben gay has vouched for Tangrowth in C+ rank, and various other people have given solid reasons as to what it has over other Grass-types, such as the ability to check Bisharp, resistance to Ground, and a better attacking movepool than Amoonguss, the other Regen Grass-type.

I agree that Alakazam is really bad, will prolly drop it in C- / D, unless someone gives a good reason for him stay in C.

Mega Blastoise checks Bisharp, a really important trait, it's weak to Tyranitar, another Pursuit user, and of course doesn't remove your own hazards, which is very important when facing offense with SR weak Pokemon (birdspam offense, dragmag with Dragonite, Mega Zard offense, etc). C or C- rank are fine for this guy, whatever you guys want.

Bronzong is basically the Mega Gardy / Latios / Latias / Thundurus check to use if your team i really Ground weak. Jirachi and Doublade are usually better options, but Bronzong checks a ton of stuff and sets up SR, which is valuable for some offensive teams. TR is not even Zong's best set, so it's not in C rank for this set.

I haven't used Chandelure for a long time and i am fine with whatever rank you guys want for it, though Ghost + Fire is a ridiculously potent STAB combo with such high SpA.

Toxicroak is a very potent rain sweeper that checks or takes advantage of almost all of rain's weaknesses, such as Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Chansey, +Speed Swift Swim users, Azumarill, Suicune, Amoonguss, and Breloom, and is a very decent sweeper and wallbreaker too. Made a more detailed post about it a few weeks ago, and it definitely deserves to be in C+. And who said that Toxicroak can't OHKO Clefable: 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 429-507 (108.8 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Blissey does indeed prevent you from losing to Knock Off Landorus, as it can avoid the 2HKO from Focus Blast even after SR. Also, Lefties help a ton against VoltTurn cores and double switches with hazards up, both common ways of beating stall teams. Oh, and Flamethrower Blissey stands a chance against LO + Taunt Gengar, a huge boon over Chansey.

Cofagrigus is a great Pokemon on TR teams, and as niche those teams are, they are definitely viable enough to justify Cofa's placement in D rank.

The rest of the D rank Pokemon that you mentioned have been talked about recently, so won't comment anything about them.

And a small tip to everyone, i suggest you post about C, C-, and D rank Pokemon only if you have tested them recently or have a friend of yours that did, because theorymon alone is often not enough to understand the role of those Pokemon in the metagame. The harder a Pokemon's role in the metagame is to get, the harder it is to theorymon about it.

 

[Alfalfa]

RotomPoison i am going to address some of your concerns about the low ranks Pokemon:

I agree about Shuckle, Webs offense is pretty shitty, but some people seem to like it. Would like to see some discussion on this.

ben gay has vouched for Tangrowth in C+ rank, and various other people have given solid reasons as to what it has over other Grass-types, such as the ability to check Bisharp, resistance to Ground, and a better attacking movepool than Amoonguss, the other Regen Grass-type.

I agree that Alakazam is really bad, will prolly drop it in C- / D, unless someone gives a good reason for him stay in C.

Mega Blastoise checks Bisharp, a really important trait, it's weak to Tyranitar, another Pursuit user, and of course doesn't remove your own hazards, which is very important when facing offense with SR weak Pokemon (birdspam offense, dragmag with Dragonite, Mega Zard offense, etc). C or C- rank are fine for this guy, whatever you guys want.

Bronzong is basically the Mega Gardy / Latios / Latias / Thundurus check to use if your team i really Ground weak. Jirachi and Doublade are usually better options, but Bronzong checks a ton of stuff and sets up SR, which is valuable for some offensive teams. TR is not even Zong's best set, so it's not in C rank for this set.

I haven't used Chandelure for a long time and i am fine with whatever rank you guys want for it, though Ghost + Fire is a ridiculously potent STAB combo with such high SpA.

Toxicroak is a very potent rain sweeper that checks or takes advantage of almost all of rain's weaknesses, such as Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Chansey, +Speed Swift Swim users, Azumarill, Suicune, Amoonguss, and Breloom, and is a very decent sweeper and wallbreaker too. Made a more detailed post about it a few weeks ago, and it definitely deserves to be in C+. And who said that Toxicroak can't OHKO Clefable: 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 429-507 (108.8 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Blissey does indeed prevent you from losing to Knock Off Landorus, as it can avoid the 2HKO from Focus Blast even after SR. Also, Lefties help a ton against VoltTurn cores and double switches with hazards up, both common ways of beating stall teams. Oh, and Flamethrower Blissey stands a chance against LO + Taunt Gengar, a huge boon over Chansey.

Cofagrigus is a great Pokemon on TR teams, and as niche those teams are, they are definitely viable enough to justify Cofa's placement in D rank.

The rest of the D rank Pokemon that you mentioned have been talked about recently, so won't comment anything about them.

And a small tip to everyone, i suggest you post about C, C-, and D rank Pokemon only if you have tested them recently or have a friend of yours that did, because theorymon alone is often not enough to understand the role of those Pokemon in the metagame. The harder a Pokemon's role in the metagame is to get, the harder it is to theorymon about it.

Could we discuss dropping Espeon to C- Rank? Aside from that GeoPass team that everyone hates, Espeon is ass. It telegraphs your movements, and nobody is going to try to set up Stealth Rock with Espeon around, they are just going to predict it switching in and hammer it. There is that Dual Screens set, but I would rather use Azelf, which has access to Stealth Rock and Taunt, as a dual screener, or Latios, which has Memento to give a teammate a free turn to set up. Could we discuss dropping Espeon again alexwolf?

 

[alexwolf]

Could we discuss dropping Espeon to C- Rank? Aside from that GeoPass team that everyone hates, Espeon is ass. It telegraphs your movements, and nobody is going to try to set up Stealth Rock with Espeon around, they are just going to predict it switching in and hammer it. There is that Dual Screens set, but I would rather use Azelf, which has access to Stealth Rock and Taunt, as a dual screener, or Latios, which has Memento to give a teammate a free turn to set up. Could we discuss dropping Espeon again alexwolf?

You can, but it's not dropping as long as Denisss's team is relevant. While Espeon may need Scolipede / Smeargle and Dual Screens support to be effective, it's a monster with this support, and there have been two teams that prove this to an extend. Espeon is a very gimmick Pokemon, but very effective nonetheless.

 

[Albacore]

If Espeon is only truly viable on that one team, wouldn't it make sense to rank it alongside Whimsicott in D?

 

[alexwolf]

If Espeon is only truly viable on that one team, wouldn't it make sense to rank it alongside Whimsicott in D?

No, because Espeon is much more essential and important on those teams than Whimsicott. Espeon is the cornerstone of the teams built around it, where Whimsicott is merely a replaceable support Pokemon.