Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Test - Stuck In The Middle With You

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I think what shrang is saying is that the checks and counters to these Pokemon are sub-par because they over-centralize so much; for example, Arceus-Rock would be way inferior to Arceus-Water or Arceus-Electric in a meta without Ho-Oh (no, I'm not suggesting we ban Ho-Oh [not even mad if we do tho]). To quote the analysis:

That's what over-centralization does: it makes people use less effective or niche Pokemon to beat a certain powerful threat. However, Shadow Tag over-centralizes less, or at least not more, than some powerful Pokemon; Ghost-types cannot be trapped, Dark-types (see: Pursuit) beat all the Shadow Tag users, and there are many Pokemon the Shadow Tag users cannot trap. On offense, many Pokemon are too powerful for Mega-Gengar and Gothitelle (and maybe Wobbuffet) to switch into, like Lustrous Orb Palkia, Kyogre, Yveltal, Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, offensive Arceus forms, and more; on stall, many Pokemon, like Blissey, carry Shed Shell (I concede that this is an example of over-centralization to a degree), or cannot be trapped by certain Pokemon; for example, Gothitelle cannot trap Heal Block Klefki. Balance usually carries few Pokemon that can be trapped by Mega-Gengar, Klefki, or Wobbuffet, and brings a Pursuit-trapper if they do.

"Shadow Tag is uncompetitive!" is another argument I would like to address. The definition of uncompetitive is listed below:

In my opinion, Shadow Tag does not take away a significant amount of autonomy-at least, not enough for it to be banned. You always have control; the moves you can choose, and sets you can run, are different choices the player can make that affect the outcome. True, Gothitelle can trap and set up on any Pokemon that cannot significantly harm it; however, that's the player's fault for not preparing for it. In addition, like any other threat, Shadow Tag can be played around with clever double switches, U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass, or other ways to beat it on individual Pokemon. Shadow Tag users are just new threats that must be prepared for differently; instead of bringing one designated counter, each Pokemon must be equipped to check it (or have a Pursuit trapper, the option I like less). This is a change, but not necessary a negative one; the metagame can and will adapt.

Finally, I'd like to talk about Shadow Tag in regards to Ubers philosophy. According to bojangles, the BW Ubers tier leader, Ubers is "the metagame with the least amount of bans possible." That alone tells us that we should not ban Shadow Tag unless it is absolutely necessary; as you can see from my paragraph above, I don't believe it is. Personally, I see no way Shadow Tag violates Ubers philosophy; sure, it causes reliance on team matchup to a degree, but so do many things. As I said earlier, it's a player's fault for not being prepared for a threat, and Shadow Tag, while very effective, is still just another threat. Team matchup is inherent in Pokemon; if your team is all grounded, relatively frail threats, then you are going to get torn apart by Sticky Web. Without wallbreakers / stallbreakers, lures, or powerful setup sweepers, Stall tears you apart; see where I'm going with this?

In conclusion, I believe that Shadow Tag should not be banned. Thank you!

tl;dr read the thing
Gonna cut you off right here and ask you to tell us, specifically, how one prepares for or adapts to Shadow Tag. Saying "it must be prepared for differently" is a blanket statement and telling players that its their fault for not preparing for it is a "git gud" argument (which was not acceptable for the previous test and is not acceptable now) unless backed up with specific examples.

(Also as an aside, the statement that Gothitelle can't trap Heal Block Klefki is false, orch posted a set literally just last page that is capable of doing so.)

Expulso, are there any sets that you can post that are ways to prepare for Shadow Tag users?

EDIT: No longer relevant due to Ninja Brian above me.
 
I only liked Expulso's post only because of this sentence:
You always have control; the moves you can choose, and sets you can run, are different choices the player can make that affect the outcome.
Can pro banners demonstrate how Shadow Tag prevents the choices are being made in movesets and teambuilder? Because, that's tons of "interesting choices" that are being made in these situations.

The arguments about how abusers are able to beat mons are not relevant if I understood mm2 right. It does not matter if meta degenerates into shed shell and knock off fest. It doesn't matter if you're forced to use Spiritomb to beat STag. This is Ubers tier- excessive centeralization is acceptable in this tier. People really should stop arguing about how abusers beat pursuiters, etc. It's not relevant. The only relevant thing that is to be discussed here is Shadow Tag.

The test is:
In this test, we will be examining the ability Shadow Tag to judge whether or not it is uncompetitive and needs to be removed from the metagame.
Please note that abusers of Shadow Tag is not part of this test.
 
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AM

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Alright so I'm not going to really get into the whole argument of "playing around it" and "viable ways to beat it" cause those two concepts in regards to Shadow Tag can be subjective and very situational at times when we consider who and how it is being used. I do want to say that I personally don't believe that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive in the way that it is being portrayed. When I consider an actual uncompetitive element, I consider something that removes player skill entirely in just about every scenario that it is used in, in the case of something like swagger as an example. The design of Shadow Tag, from a competitive standpoint, is to eliminate key threats to an opposing players team. As such when players choose something such as M-Gengar or Gothitelle, they're building around this concept and utilizing the ability of Shadow Tag to improve the likelihood of a win. Whether that would be through eliminating a problem for the team, using the ability and assets they provide to gain an advantage, prepare for a sweep, and so on. This in my book is a trait of a competitive tool as team building, threat control, and its practical use in battle is all taken into consideration by the player in control of the Shadow Tag user. I would like to emphasize this because that is part of the competitive nature of pokemon as well. Understanding the threats in each battle, utilizing the available assets at your disposable, making judgements based on the opposing players actions. The idea that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive is going off the idea that players who are faced against these ST users lose all control from the get go. They lose some or all control only if they become trapped, which is the nature of Shadow Tag and is the premise of what the player wants to accomplish competitively to achieve an optimal end result.

It's been established that subjectively Shadow Tag may be viewed as an uncompetitive element based on the player and individuals which whom you ask. However, objectively I can't see how Shadow Tag is an uncompetitive element when the removal of choice is the sole purpose of using Shadow Tag in the first place as a competitive asset towards the final or greater end result in a match.
 
I'm just gonna run through the viability thread and go through it by Pokemon,and how they match up with / beat Mega Gengar and Gothitelle.

When I say "beats Mega Gengar" I include DBond kills.

S Rank:
Mega Gengar
- it is the shadow tag lol
Kyogre - scarf beats them if not locked into ice beam / thunder, specs wins no matter what iirc
Mega Mewtwo X - Psychic STAB beats Mega Gengar, Taunt beats Gothitelle
Mega Mewtwo Y - Psychic STAB beats Mega Gengar, Taunt / Shadow Ball (maybeeee) beats Gothitelle
Mewtwo - Psychic STAB beats Mega Gengar, Taunt beats Gothitelle
Xerneas - Psyshock beats Mega Gengar, Geomancy / Megahorn beats Gothitelle
A Rank:
High:
Arceus-Poison - Psyshock beats Mega Gengar, SD POISON JAB is bad but beats Gothitelle
Arceus-Normal - SD + Shadow Claw beats Mega Gengar, as it outspeeds before MEvo or can live a non-Focus Blast attack; SD beats Gothitelle.
(Mega) Blaziken - Flare Blitz or Knock Off Mega Gengar, or SD ---> Flare Blitz ---> sweep; Flare Blitz or Knock Off Gothitelle
Landorus-T - EQ Mega Gengar (normal has an Immunity) or just run Knock Off; U-Turn away from Gothitelle, or use LO Explosion, Double Dance, etc.
Palkia - Neither can trap LustKia iirc; Dragon Tail bops both.
Yveltal: hi I am the dark type and I attack you for damage

Mid:
Darkrai: ur a dark type bro, kill em (Scarf outspeeds even MEvo-d Gengar)
Deoxys-Attack: Psychic STAB Mega Gengar, Knock Off / Dark Pulse Gothitelle.
Low
I'll add more tomorrow, but as you can see, many mons have a way to escape even if they don't always run it.
There are some things I think you seem to blow off. First, oftentimes a Destiny Bond kill is all Mega Gengar needs to do its job. In fact, Mega Gengar doesn't even need to trade one for one to be effective - if I can take away 50% from that Landorus-T so my EKiller can set up and sweep later, it's usually something worth considering (alternatively, Gengar could just run Icy Wind).

Next, you have some incorrect statements about Pokemon that beat STag, e.g. Xern is not going to get that Psyshock off unless scarfed, Poison Jab Arceus-Poison loses to Dice's Charm set, a sun sack lets Goth beat Kyogre (again you may argue that trading Groudon may not be worth it, but removing a revenge killer can pave the way for other sweepers, etc.), Blaze can't set up if Gengar uses Destiny Bond on Protect and follows up with Sludge Wave (which KOs after rocks and a layer of spikes).

But beyond nitpicking examples, if you look at your list, you'll notice that all the Pokemon you listed are forced to run extremely offensive sets to bypass Shadow Tag. That itself is a huge limitation on the metagame and teambuilding. Furthermore, you can only switch in your Dark type, Deoxys, etc. on the revenge kill. Not only that, but nothing's stopping the STag user from switch out to come back in later. The fact that Shadow Tag has Pokemon it's ineffective against does not take away that almost every non HO team has Pokemon weak to Shadow Tag.

Shadow Tag can pick and choose which Pokemon are troublesome. STag mons can switch out of unfavorable situations, while the mons trapped obviously can't. Suppose that by midgame a healthy Lando-T (edit: change this to 70% Groudon, a much more reasonable example) is the only thing stopping me from being swept by EKiller. I'd like to switch my Lando-T out, but my opponent has STag on the field and I take 60% (e: ~40% for Groudon) from its attack before EQing. Yes, I beat the STag mon, but it more than fulfilled its job in weakening my checks. (e: Without Shadow Tag I am able to send in a less important mon. In this way Stag removes choice and exacerbates team matchup.)

Addressing orch, I do agree that this discussion ought to be more about STag as a whole (which I don't exactly do in this post, oops) but I feel it is necessary to incorporate maybe a little how STag works in this metagame, etc. which does require some examples and thus requires us to analyze specific STag mons. I don't think a good decision can be made if we just theorymon (e: probably more like theory-ability) about STag all day. In practice things are different from what we think.
 
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Dice's Charm set
Fact-check yourself plz

Addressing orch, I do agree that this discussion ought to be more about STag as a whole (which I don't exactly do in this post, oops) but I feel it is necessary to incorporate how STag works in this metagame, etc. which does require some examples and thus requires us to analyze specific STag mons. I don't think a good decision can be made if we just theorymon (e: probably more like theory-ability) about STag all day. In practice things are different from what we think.
The fact that Shadow Tag is capable of influencing the metagame and doing whatever is a given. And because of that given statement, there's no need to analyze the abusers. We all should agree that Gengar can taunt+dbond+one of 10 coverages or whatever and Goth can do rest/cm/psyshock or psychic/one of 5 support moves or whatever. This is a given. Discussing about these details is only going to end up in circles (gengar can hp fire!! then use aegislash!! gengar can sball!! then use spiritomb!! spiritomb is bad!! etc).
 
Addressing orch, I do agree that this discussion ought to be more about STag as a whole (which I don't exactly do in this post, oops) but I feel it is necessary to incorporate maybe a little how STag works in this metagame, etc. which does require some examples and thus requires us to analyze specific STag mons. I don't think a good decision can be made if we just theorymon (e: probably more like theory-ability) about STag all day. In practice things are different from what we think.
Yeah, you kinda realized it at the end of this post but I think we actually can jump past theorymoning if we're not exclusively focusing on mons with our questioning (as orch kinda mentioned in reply.)

What we need to ask is what it is that shadow tag does and what's uncompetitive/competitive about it.

All Shadow Tag does is prevent some switches. That's it. It does literally nothing else under just the context of the ability and not the abusers. From that, we ask whether preventing some switches is uncompetitive. I lean towards no since it doesn't prevent all switches. But, I'm not getting reqs this round so it's not really up to me anyway.
 

Krauersaut

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I'm just gonna run through the viability thread and go through it by Pokemon,and how they match up with / beat Mega Gengar and Gothitelle.

When I say "beats Mega Gengar" I include DBond kills.
That statement is the exact reason of this suspect test (and, no offense, why I believe only more experienced players should be allowed to vote).

By the logic of that statement, Palkia beats Mega-Gengar. It's able to bring it down, although it dies to Destiny Bond (save odd 50/50s on the rare Thunder Wave Palkia sets). HOWEVER, if the Mega-Gengar user is coupled with a Scarf Kyogre (or really any offensively inclined Kyogre), the chances of your winning just got diminished to the point of being almost non-existant.

The definition of truly "beating Mega-Gengar" is to eliminate it without it eliminating one of your own team members. To suggest otherwise would completely contradict the point of the ability Shadow Tag, and henceforth, why it is being suspected.
 

Fireburn

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Instead of responding directly to Expulso's post (there's a lot of things wrong with it), I'm just gonna explain why you can't "prepare" for Shadow Tag so we can avoid clogging up the thread with this.

Checking a Shadow Tag user means that you must stop them from doing their job. Unlike other Pokemon, you cannot do this in the traditional sense since you cannot switch into a Shadow Tag user - once it has its prey, it comes down to a 1 on 1 fight between those two mons, the victor of which is more or less entirely dependent on the set both mons are running. This is why Shed Shell and VoltTurn are imperfect solutions - not everything that the Taggers want to trap can viably run these things. VoltTurn is accessible only to very few viable mons, and does not count as a way to really check Shadow Tag because the Shadow Tag user can pick its target - a target that usually can't use these moves. There is no viable competitive team in Ubers where all 6 Pokemon can use U-turn or Volt Switch, so there is no way these moves actually help stop Shadow Tag.

Shed Shell is only really an option on certain walls, and what is probably the most common target for Shadow Tag (support Arceus formes) doesn't even have the option to run this item. Furthermore, Shed Shell objectively makes walls worse at checking what they are supposed to since it denies them passive healing from Leftovers. This matters a lot - for example, Blissey cannot reliably check Xerneas without Leftovers at it will be 2HKOed by a boosted Moonblast after SR 75% of the time, making it unable to heal up after getting off a Toxic. Sylveon regains 12.5% less health each time it wants to Wish + Protect which means Yveltal or Palkia can break through it on their own more easily. Klefki is much more easily worn down since it lacks other recovery of its own and is not exactly a paragon of bulk. These are just a couple examples, but what this means is Shadow Tag's very presence makes these checks weaker by running Shed Shell; even if they don't actually get trapped, it means your other Pokemon can break them on their own power much more easily to the point where you might not even need to trap them. Ironically, this means that Shadow Tag is still doing its job, in the sense that it helps weaken or kill other targets to let your own Pokemon sweep more effectively without your opponent having a real choice in the matter. Running Shed Shell isn't really a choice at all from this perspective, since either way it's a lose-lose situation. There is no real advantage to running Shed Shell as the mere threat of Shadow Tag is making your vulnerable Pokemon worse.

As for double switching, I'm gonna quote dice from the other thread:

dice said:
i would also like to reiterate that many players are missing the point on the double switches that shadow tag may cause. shrang may not know this, surprise surprise, ad hominem ad hominem; however, effective double switches made by good players take risk vs reward, the integral concept of pokemon, into play. if shadow isn't involved, typical double switches which are almost always a "if i am correct, i gain an advantage. if i am wrong, i will not become so behind as to where i cannot come back". with tag involved, however, it is truly a crapshoot of intuition for the most part. there is no skill in a 5050 where one option gives you the upper hand and one option can lose you a very important pokemon which can almost ascertain a gigantic momentum loss.
Now let's get to the trapped scenario. For the sake of example, say its Arceus-Poison against Gothitelle. No problem, I have Poison Jab, I'll 3HKO Gothitelle before it kills me. You do your nice 34% with PJab and then...Gothitelle uses Charm. Poison Arceus dies and your opponent still has a Xerneas. You are now screwed. A similar scenario: Mega Scizor vs Mega Gengar. You switch in Mega Scizor on the MEvo turn, great, now you can Pursuit trap it and everything will be fine and dandy. So you click Pursuit and then...Mega Gengar uses Hidden Power Fire. Or Destiny Bond. Now your Scizor is dead and the opponent still has a Xerneas in the back with a potential Mega-Evolved Gengar on the loose. You are now screwed.

The actual examples aren't as important as the point behind them: you can't adapt to Shadow Tag users because they can adapt right back. Whether or not you overcome the Shadow Tag user is entirely dependent on the moves you and it happen to be running at the time. You can't truly prepare for this! You can't scout for this. You can't switch to something with a better matchup. All you can do is pray the opponent isn't running the move that beats your supposed countermeasure. In this way, true preparation for Shadow Tag is impossible.

tl;dr
  • VoltTurn doesn't work because few things can actually use it
  • Shed Shell is more a forfeiture of choice than a real countermeasure since you either let your mon get trapped or make it worse against what it needs to beat, either way its a lose-lose situation and there is no real advantage to be gained
  • Double switching is not an argument
  • Beating Shadow Tag is less about preparation and skill and more about praying your moveset doesn't lose to theirs - you have no way of knowing if it does until its too late

So yeah, please stop saying you can prepare for Shadow Tag, because you really can't. Hopefully I can make a better post in the future because it's late and this was kind of just me rambling.

Also read this post, it makes a lot of good points.
 

SparksBlade

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1st of all i request "No Ban" supporters to not bring up "Where will Mega Gengar go?" as an argument. Thank you.
I've been laddering for 2 days and haven't seen serious use of Shadow Tag to the point where i can clearly see it doing anything. I haven't seen a Goth either, so request that some of you provide me some replays where i can see it being uncompetitive(i.e. replays from those who say it so) and replays where it isn't actually an issue. Hopefully that'll help me make up my mind 'cos now i'm rather undecided on it after reading the arguments and counter-arguments, and chatting in the Ubers room. Thank you.
 

shrang

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Why are u twistin my words, if anything you're helping my argument a bit, you mentioned pokemon that are consistently checked by said checks/counters, there's also the fact of knowing the meta and what are ur dealing with, if some random dude on ladder popped ur Palkia with CM HP Dragon Kyogre that does not count, nor u find CM Kyogre in this gen anyways, which is the only set that beats Lefties Offensive Palkia. GeoXern is gay but there are several ways of checking besides of having an exact counter, won't mention them here because it's not the topic at hand. Kyogre will always lose to Palkia, Ho-Oh will always lose to Arc-Rock, Yveltal will always lose to Fairy Arc or Defensive Xern and so on. With Shadow Tag users like Gothitelle and Mega Gengar, that does not happen often. Mega Gengar, as mentioned countless times before, can run literally anything that would help it get passed it checks or counters, Pursuit Scizor? HP Fire! Ttar? Focus Blast? Ho-Oh and Kyogre? Thunder! But yea, with Gothitelle u can run Charm to lower Ttar's or Aegis' Atk stat when they try to Pursuit trap u and preserve if u need to trap somethin else, Heal Bell is also annoyin as Dice mentioned. I think you got my point already but I will say it once again in case u didnt. Shadow Tag users laugh at the metagame while such "overcentralization" happens and in my opinion, it's not really fair to compare it to any other threat in the Ubers metagame, and the real one, not the Mono-bird or Mono-Dinosaur meta.
You're accusing me of twisting your words when it is you who completely missed the point. You went into such a massive exposition on why Shadow Tag is harder to deal with than the examples listed in my post that you missed the fact the bit "team building restrictions/overcentralisation has nothing to do with how we judge competitiveness in Ubers". If you missed that, I'll link Melee's post from just one page ago:

A for effort. However, limiting teambuilding =/= uncompetitive. Ubers could become like RBY OU where there are only variations of the single, same build and still be completely competitive and in line with the ubers philosophy.
So yeah, you can argue to Nth degree on how Shadow Tag is inherently more overcentralising or harder to deal with, which would mean nothing because that is not what we are arguing about.

Also on "Shadow Tag mons can do their job even if you're countering it" is also besides the point. These are still arguing that the Pokemon in question is to be banned on the basis that it's OP, and we have made it very clear that is not part of the criteria when we ban things from Ubers.
 
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PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Alright I'm going to post and it's not going to read very nicely but I'm going to be honest.

I didn't play the Gengar suspect because I didn't have time, but I wanted to play this suspect. However, I'm not going to bother because what's the point? The multitude of OU players who stole Edgar's RMT and laddered for an afternoon for the requirements was ridiculous. I'll give you a couple of the arguments and opinions I saw in the Ubers Room:

"Gengar isn't broken mate, I only played it twice and all it did was Destiny Bond whatever"

"Gengar shoudln't be banned, I surprised it with Scarf Yveltal and OHKOed it"

"Shadow Tag is fine, I managed to trap his Palkia before he trapped mine"

............

As for Shadow Tag, the main issue I have with it is that it turns matches into a bag of dicks. I utterly despise this tier because I'm sick and tired of a scenario where Gothitelle traps my whatever, then spends 40 turns Calm Minding, Resting and Charming / Trick Rooming repeatedly so that it can be at 90% health instead of 75% health when it kills my whatever. It's impossible for me to enjoy playing anymore. Gengar is just as bad, people need to stop thinking "oh well it traded one-for-one it's not broken" because that's fucking stupid. An opinion that I personally have is that Gengar is also UNBELIEVABLY cheap, as you can just use it as a Destiny Bond panic button vs Arceus-Electric, Arceus-Water, Extremekiller, whatever that is otherwise going to run a train over your team - if you played and built a team that is complete dick then I don't think you should be able to trap and snipe something with Gengar - I always make sure to run 176+ Speed at least on all my CM Arceus formes so that they can at least win vs unevolved Gengar.

As for "well just run moves on this to kill Gengar or Gothitelle" all of these options are ass. Dark Pulse Grassceus is ass, Punishment Rockceus is ass and doesnt' work anyway, Roar Supportceus in general is bad and loses to Taunt Gengar anyway. People will always use Shadow Tag because it's a cheap easy formula that wins games, just ask Melee Mewtwo (no offense man). When I trialled Mega Gengar i used Substitute because it gives you a free Mega Evolution and lets you escape from incoming Pursuiters easily (or you can just snipe them if you have the move to do so). The only thing I've used specifically for Gengar that had any other meaningful was Earthquake / Bullet Seed / Wisp / Recover Grassceus with 176+ Speed , which was actually not bad as it caught Dialga and Heatran with EQ, but it's still a terrible moveset. Punishment Arceus? you lose to Charm. Roar Arceus? you lose to Taunt Gengar. I've started to see Support Arceus-Dark in particular as it beats Gohitelle in particular (Arceus-Ghost seems to be more common too, but the Arceus-Dark usage is more noticeable). The rise of Giratina-Origin is clearly due to it being able to trample Shadow Tag users (I don't get why people are only now realising this though). I'

I actually think Wobbufett is fine, I remember playing DPP where Wobbuffet was EXTREMELY good, in fact I'd argue it was better than Gengar and Gothitelle are this generation although that's just my opinion. There was a LOT of Wobbuffet hatred back then which was justified, I remember running Expert Belt Dialga + Scarf Palkia or Scarf Dialga + Lustrous Orb Kia just for Wobbuffet. However, Wobbuffet I'd say is fine now, it's powerful don't get me wrong, but not broken. HOWEVER, if the price of banning Gengar and Gothitelle is that Wobbuffet goes too, I'm not going to cry about it.

I'm sorry for this vicious post but it has to be said, lots of people smarter than me can go into detail about how Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, I wanted to write down how the previous suspect test was fucked up royally and also state a forgotten opinion that Shadow Tag ruins games, which it does. Why the fuck are we playing if we don't enjoy the matches we play?

A short rundown of things that I think are stupid:

"Limits Teambuilding": Yeah so does Kyogre, no Kyogre check and you WILL lose. replace Kyogre with Xerneas / Extremekiller / whatever. Stupid argument. (My complaint about the things that you use on Supportceus (definitely the most vulnerable mon tag-wise) are all complete shit AND you still lose anyway).

"You can bring Tag too imbecile, just trap them before they trap you": okay so let's degenerate into teams with Gothitelle + Gengar + Extremekiller + Kyogre + Xerneas + whatever, that sounds like A LOT of fun.

"well you can just not switch in your mon so you don't get trapped": Okay, I won't switch in my SpDefKia on this Kyogre, I'll just let my Ho-Oh die. Then I'll let my Arceus-Rock die. Then I'll let my Gliscor die. sounds like a plan - I'll lose BUT i won't get trapped!!!! - this has to be by far the stupidest thing I've heard as an argument.

I apologize for the vicious post, especially at the start, but someone has to say it. You guys also took WAY too long to announce the results. Next time, if you're gonna spend ages going through posts, make sure that you bin all of the players that are clearly not Ubers players and only want their dumbass badge. Otherwise, what the fuck is the point. Infract me, delete this post, whatever, I'll probably just end up posting it again. Hugendugen may have been a great Ubers player before, but now he doesn't even play the tier, so why is he making decisions about it, it took him almost a year to approve a Shadow Tag suspect when we were already complaining about it in November. I'm sorry that I'm going after him in particular but what I say is true...
 
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Admittedly, I'd like to see some videos with Gothitelle too, since I can't recall seeing one in thirty matches. In general, Shadow Tag is not that abundant in the ladder right now, so most of what I'm gonna say comes from my own Mega Gengar usage. Unfortunately, while I played Ubers for a good part of 2014 before taking a large break from battling in general, I never played Gengar before. As such, the team I built specifically for the test is to see what I can do with Gengar as well. I repeat, most of what I'm gonna say are derived from my own plays, for lack of effective Shadow Tag usage in the ladder.
After a few practice matches to get the hang of it, I think I managed to use Shadow Tag not perfectly, but at least reliably. On these grounds, I can assure you that not many n00bs who just slap Mega Gengar in their team are gonna wreck your face-they usually first need to understand that you can't switch it into Dialga's Draco Meteor or something. However, the fact that it takes some skill to use doesn't make Shadow Tag competitive on its own. And unfortunately, what I've seen for myself and what I've read in both this and the previous thread lead me to believe Shadow Tag in itself isn't competitive.
The reason for the above is rather simple. Shadow Tag just gives you way too many options while greatly reducing those of your opponents. With Shadow Tag, you control the flow of the battle before it even starts; anything your opponent does is directed by the fact that one wrong move will result in his EKiller/Xerneas/w/e counter being trapped and eliminated, with the aforementioned monster ready to crush the rest of your team. Meanwhile, you can make more daring plays and exploit other options and openings that your opponent won't or can't consider due to the blade hanging over their heads.
To add to this, there's really no effective way to prepare for Shadow Tag. Let's face it, you can't run a full VoltTurn team in Ubers and Shed Shell has so many flaws that its perk to avoid Shadow Tag is minor. One way or another, if your opponent knows what he's doing, you will spend an entire match trying to avoid getting trapped. If you make one mistake or are forced into a trapping situation, it's more or less decided. The Shadow Tag user forces an 1 on 1 that is almost always favorable to them. They CAN and WILL remove at least one Pokemon in your team, maybe two if your mistake was more severe, and after this happens, you're probably in just the right position to be completely screwed over.
Overall, after seeing the Gengarite suspect test and now this, I think I've made up my mind. Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, not because it's overcentralizing and limiting teambuilding, but it because it limits the game itself. Pretty much there are two things you can do, bite your nails and cry. Shadow Tag not only forces unfavorable situations, it makes them completely inescapable. Therefore, I vote "Ban" for Shadow Tag.
 

HeIIraiser

tough like igglybuff
Just sharing my thoughts again after getting reqs another time and my small ubers experience:

Mega Gengar has two immunities, high stats, good speed, good and wide movepool, and with shadow tag it becomes very powerful. Mega Gengar is a fantastic suport pokémon, since you pretty much will kill what you are aiming to kill to make your late game sweep happen if you play correctly. And it also has fast Destiny Bond to get a cheap kill. On the other hand, gothitelle is also very threatening with its Calm Mind + Rest moveset, being able to beat many pokémons in the tier and offer a cheap and good support for the rest of the team.

While Shadow Tag centralizes a lot the current uber metagame, Xerneas, Arceus, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Ho-Oh and other pokémon also do that (maybe even more). Let's be honest here, nothing counters Xerneas and 3 pokémons (klefki, mega scizor and aegi) check it. Many good uber players often get swept by Xerneas or CM random type Arceus / SD Arceus in matches where they had more than one check to it.

But let's be honest again; Xerneas and Arceus will never be suspected. And I dont think they should. I believe Ubers to be a tier where you can abuse the most overpowered strategies the game provides us with. In my opinion, the only real bans should be no-skill luck strategies (OHKO moves, etc). I think at this point we all know how terryfing Shadow Tag is, but I dont find it any less uncompetitive than Xerneas getting +2+2+2 in one turn or a unexpected Arceus type/set pulling a last turn sweep.

Saying it is a "cheap strategy" seems very biased to me, meaning you are just annoyed Shadow Tag doesn't let you use the pokémons you like. Shadow Tag is not what Mega Lucario / Mega Mawile were in xy ou (get +2 and win the game), it is just a very good strategy in the tier. I've personally never had problems with it, because I am always prepared to face it.

All in all, I think the discussion is more about the philosophy of what xy uber should represent. If people think it should be a "real tier", then they will probably vote for shadow tag to be banned, because shadow tag is for sure very uncompetitive. Nevertheless, if people think it should be a tier where you "can abuse overpowered strategies", then they will vote for it not to be banned. I don't think Shadow Tag will be banned at this point, since many people who would vote "Ban" will be voting "Not Ban" so they can see how will the ubers metagame with Mega Gengar in ORAS look like.
 
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Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Mega Gengar has two immunities, high stats, good speed, good and wide movepool, and with shadow tag it becomes very powerful. Mega Gengar is a fantastic suport pokémon, since you pretty much will kill what you are aiming to kill to make your late game sweep happen if you play correctly. And it also has fast Destiny Bond to get a cheap kill. On the other hand, gothitelle sucks, it has a very very small niche and shouldnt be used neither in ladder or competitive tournament matches.
I stopped reading at this point.

Seriously though, given that this is probably the most important pokemon involved with the suspect test and you literally don't know how it works.. why on earth, echoing lustrouspalkia's point, are you voting on this? I know it's for TC badge.. but when you have people voting on a suspect on what's for the most part a pokemon they're not even aware of what it does there is something seriously wrong ;~;

Also that post the fireburn linked is the best post on shadow tag I have ever read.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Gothitelles ability in ubers is: thia

what does even gothi do?
it fails to outspeed stuff, fails to kill stuff, fails to do anything, is draco meteored and dies. ?_?
It tricks chansey, i guess, how useful. o.o
all you're doing is prove that you don't play this tier at an even vaguely decent competitively level.
How does trapping Palkia, or Arceus (I'm referring to non-ghost which can defog) (beats almost all of them with charm [punishment/poison jab]), klefki, charm handles pursuit trappers, heal bell supports your team in obvious ways, and also watch edgar's video.
 
Thanks LustKia. In the meantime, I also faced a Gothitelle user. Nevermind the fact that I haxed him with a critical Surf; that thing would have wrecked my face. Not to mention it wasted half an hour of my life. It definitely didn't make my opinion of Shadow Tag better.
 

Martin

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TBH I'm not sure which way I'm going to go on the matter of this one. Hell: my opinion swerved back and fourth enough on whether I thought Gengarite should have been banned. The fact is this: Wobbuffet isn't very good and Gothitelle has to decide what it wants to beat: Ho-Oh and CM Arceus or other things due to its limited movepool. While, I admit, it screws with hyper offense using TR and it has an easy job setting up against defensive mons that cant touch it (cue MC Hammer), it is ultimately flawed by its susceptibility to Pursuit, Sucker Punch and Crunch, and it is just really matchup reliant: too much so to really excell in the metagame. This is why I am currently thinking of abstaining, but I'll use Gothitell and M-Gar a little more to see if I have a change of hear, but I'm currently neutral on the matter.
 
Just sharing my thoughts again after getting reqs another time and my small ubers experience:

Mega Gengar has two immunities, high stats, good speed, good and wide movepool, and with shadow tag it becomes very powerful. Mega Gengar is a fantastic suport pokémon, since you pretty much will kill what you are aiming to kill to make your late game sweep happen if you play correctly. And it also has fast Destiny Bond to get a cheap kill. On the other hand, gothitelle sucks, it has a very very small niche and shouldnt be used neither in ladder or competitive tournament matches.

While Shadow Tag centralizes a lot the current uber metagame, Xerneas, Arceus, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Ho-Oh and other pokémon also do that (maybe even more). Let's be honest here, nothing counters Xerneas and 3 pokémons (klefki, mega scizor and aegi) check it. Many good uber players often get swept by Xerneas or CM random type Arceus / SD Arceus in matches where they had more than one check to it.

But let's be honest again; Xerneas and Arceus will never be suspected. And I dont think they should. I believe Ubers to be a tier where you can abuse the most overpowered strategies the game provides us with. In my opinion, the only real bans should be no-skill luck strategies (OHKO moves, etc). I think at this point we all know how terryfing Shadow Tag/Mega Gengar is, but I dont find it any less uncompetitive than Xerneas getting +2+2+2 in one turn or a unexpected Arceus type/set pulling a last turn sweep.

Saying it is a "cheap strategy" seems very biased to me, meaning you are just annoyed Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag doesn't let you use the pokémons you like. Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag is not what Mega Lucario / Mega Mawile were in xy ou (get +2 and win the game), it is just a very good pokémon/strategy in the tier. I've personally never had problems with it, because I am always prepared to face it.

All in all, I think the discussion is more about the philosophy of what xy uber should represent. If people think it should be a "real tier", then they will probably vote for shadow tag to be banned, because shadow tag is for sure very uncompetitive. Nevertheless, if people think it should be a tier where you "can abuse overpowered strategies", then they will vote for it not to be banned. I don't think Shadow Tag will be banned at this point, since many people who would vote "Ban" will be voting "Not Ban" so they can see how will the ubers metagame with Mega Gengar in ORAS look like.
man, this really is a classic example of "lol its just ou players who played a few ladder games". that may sound harsh or something, but sadly I don't think you really understood what this suspect is about, and more importantly you seem to think "overpowered" and "over centralizing" are relevant. the last part was hinting in the right direction, but also had "lol overpowered" in it. we're supposed to vote on if stag is uncompetitive or not, so maybe go read up on some arguments about why it is (and why it isn't I guess too, but lol).

now the part where you said "gothitelle sucks, it has a very very small niche and shouldnt be used neither in ladder or competitive tournament matches" made me want to commit suicide, so lets just pull up a threat list rq n point out the shits gothi traps hnnng
S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.
  • (Gengar) No
  • (Kyogre) Specs/scarf locked into thunder/ice beam, specs water move in sun. Spdef roars it out.
  • (Mewtwo) No
  • (Xerneas) The cleric set is common good, can't do anything back bar the rare roar
A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.

High
  • (Arceus-Ghost) No
  • (Arceus-Normal) No
  • (Blaziken) No
  • (Landorus-T) No
  • (Palkia) Traps lustkia, spdef without dragon tail too
  • (Yveltal) No, but tbolt kills them as they dpulse predicting switch (fucking innovation by yours truly gr8 ctc level shit rh)
Mid
  • (Darkrai) No
  • (Deoxys-A) No
  • (Deoxys-S) No
  • (Dialga) "is draco meteored and dies", pls, gothi traps this unless it has roar
  • (Groudon) No
  • (Ho-Oh) No
  • (Klefki) Can't do anything back bar heal block, but charm destroys it so yeah. Gets 3 spikes though.
  • (Zekrom) No, bar locked into draco (which is not unlikely)
Low
  • (Arceus-Electric) Sets up alongside, gothi wins
  • (Arceus-Poison) No, pjab 3hko's
  • (Arceus-Water) Sets up alongside, gothi wins. Supportceus = stag food.
  • (Gothitelle) MIRROR WARS BOTH CAN SWITCH JAJA BWOI
  • (Lugia) No, whirlwind
  • (Rayquaza) No
  • (Scizor) No, also takes dix from +6 psyshock and traps with pursuit (tbolt ,,,). Charm prevents successful trapping.
B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

High
  • (Arceus-Fairy) Sets up alongside, gothi wins. Supportceus = stag food.
  • (Arceus-Grass) Supportceus = stag food.
  • (Arceus-Ground) No
  • (Genesect) No
  • (Sylveon) Same like xerneas, gothi easily traps
  • (Thundurus) No
  • (Wobbuffet) Can switch out, so no
Mid
  • (Aegislash) No
  • (Deoxys-D) These run taunt but WTF IS THIS DOING IN B-MID IN RANK WITH FERRO GLISC HEATRAN EXCA KANGAS AND GIRATINA-O ?????
  • (Excadrill) No
  • (Ferrothorn) Yup, seed+ball doesn't do enough if gothi runs -spe 0 iv's (which it should, listed in analysis)
  • (Giratina-O) No (one of the main reasons people started using this is goth)
  • (Gliscor) No
  • (Heatran) No
  • (Kangaskhan) No
  • (Lucario) No
  • (Shaymin-S) No (bar on scarf locked into epower/hp rock but very uncommon)
  • (Tyranitar) No, pursuit traps gothi unless charm.
  • (Whimsicott) No
Low
  • (Arceus-Dark) No (darkceus is amazing use it)
  • (Arceus-Rock) Supportceus = stag food.
  • (Arceus-Steel) No but wtf who uses this
  • (Blissey) Runs shed shell, so no
  • (Clefable) Same like other clerics, unaware ignores the boosts but mblast only does 19.5 - 23% and gets easily pp stalled.
  • (Cloyster) No
  • (Hippowdon) No
  • (Kyurem-W) No, can trap scarf
  • (Quagsire) Eq only 4hko's so this is also trapped. Gothi has to pp stall it though.
  • (Sableye) No
  • (Scolipede) No
Didnt bother with lower ranked mons but this should give you an idea.

e: "Can you guys stop getting trolled by Brazilians?" samba rio carnival pele macarena ,,,


I need to make a few corrections to your list:
  • Poison Arceus can be trapped by Charm Goth
  • Gliscor can be trapped by Goth if Gliscor lacks Taunt (if it has Charm it is guaranteed to lose)
  • Defensive Landorus-T without U-turn can be trapped by Charm Goth
  • Goth can also trap Scarf Xerneas
-Fireburn

^, I am a goat and this is all true :]

BUT WE FORGOT THE MOST VALID ARGUMENT OF ALL TIME :

@Haruno: i mean
@Haruno: there's no real denying
@Haruno: goth is uncompetitive
@Haruno: because of shadow tag
@Haruno: !data gothitelle
  • OU Gothitelle
    Frisk
    Competitive Shadow Tag
    HP
    70 Atk
    55 Def
    95 SpA
    95 SpD
    110 Spe
    65 BST
    490
 
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(sorry justin, you just bolded the exact, condensed arguments I wanted to address in your post)
it can be played around.
This is not only false but also related to why Shadow Tag is such an issue. I don't call whatever you do in teambuilder "playing around" Shadow Tag (or anything else for that matter). First of all, even in teambuilder you can't beat Shadow Tag, just reduce it. (see edgar's first post that I quoted earlier) Secondly, the excessive options (think Punishment Arceus) are shots in the dark. They involve a large increased risk in certain matchups due to their specialization and can *only* pay off *if* they happen to bring the Shadow Tag abuser you are targeting *and* aren't using a set that is a step ahead *nor *interested in trapping that mon in particular *nor* accompanied by the certain matchups you made yourself weaker to. (phew) This is not a risk you can choose to take based on any reasonable amount of information, scouting replays is nice but your opponent still has an unpredictable possibility of teams that they could bring. It is because of this massive inconsistency and blind chance that good teambuilders, like edgar, avoid using such measures.

tl;dr - Taking blind risks that are still very susceptible to failure isn't "playing around".

orch I think this should also answer your own questions on why I don't factor in options in teambuilder as a form of interesting choice.

there are viable ways to beat it.
shrang this is where edgar's post find relevance and why you are misinterpreting him: correcting the inaccurate and misleading arguments that are mostly variations of this. The issue with statements and arguments like this is it's falsely claiming that Shadow Tag is only an issue because, for some reason, nobody is preparing for it like they should. Edgar clearly explains that's not the case and why. It's a counter argument and valuable supporting detail (Tag isn't like Evasion in BW2 or Confuse Ray), but don't confuse it as the motive. (which is the key difference between edgar's post and sparksblade)

quick random asides:
orch, just cause you've brought it up a few times, every Gothitelle set was discovered back in spl. There are still some, very potent sets that have yet to see use. Also, I think it's pathetic to insist so much on having your name attached to the innovation of any set in Pokemon. (but that's just me)

Replays of Shadow Tag can be seen as early as spl. Quite a few were linked within the first page of the gengarite thread. (look for dice's post)

Can you guys stop getting trolled by Brazilians?
 
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HeIIraiser

tough like igglybuff
Lol you people are crazy as hell
Gothi is awfull, just spam strong stab and it is 2hit koed. ?_? Just spam the ubers bullshit formula with xerneas arceus palkia megamewtwoy and gothi wont do anything. Quit this shit, i won superstars, so i am correct and gothi does sucks. It has a very very gimmick small niche, but other tham that it sucks.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
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Something that was brought up last thread was the comparison between sleep and Shadow Tag (by Melee, actually), which I think should be expanded on. Here's my post on it from last thread. I think the main points are highlighted in my post, but I'd like add a few things.

Just to clarify, uncontrolled sleep is when you have no Sleep clause, and controlled sleep is when you do.

- Shadow Tag removes your choice to switch, and by Melee's logic from the quoted post, so does uncontrolled sleep because all it does it sleep whatever switches in and put you in the same position. However, sleep also removes your freedom to attack, which is just as fundamental a mechanic as switching. Even controlled sleep virtually removes your control of whatever Pokemon is slept, even if it's 1 Pokemon only (similar to what usually happens with Shadow Tag).
- Some people may Shadow Tag is more selective in what it takes out than controlled sleep because you can actively switch into something that you feel is best in your position to take the sleep (a Sleep Talker, or just fodder that you think is least valuable to the team). However, one must not forget that your opponent "chooses" when they decide to use the sleep move. For example, you may think it was a great time to switch into your Choice Band Ho-oh in Darkrai to take the sleep, but they can choose to sleep you as you switch and instead attack with Dark Pulse or goes for an NP. Now you face a "50/50", in which you need to predict to use Sleep Talk in anticipation for Dark Void, or pick Brave Bird/Sacred Fire in case Darkrai attacks or uses Nasty Plot. If you Sleep Talk and it attacks, you've lost the matchup even though Ho-oh can be saved since Darkrai has free rein on whatever comes in, then you have to play that game all over again (ESPECIALLY bad if they predict the Sleep Talk and goes for the Nasty Plot instead. Just like controlled sleep, Shadow Tag is quite dependent on the user. These things are not "insane predictions" on the sleep using Pokemon, they are the same as in the Shadow Tag scenario, ie 50/50s. And hey, just like a Shadow Tag, if you outplayed that Ho-oh with your Darkrai then you have a significantly higher chance of winning the game (even though Darkrai in this scenario could be stopped by other means). If by using the logic of some pro-ban supporters, significantly higher chance = you've won the game.

Okay, so why am I highlighting this? The reason is that if Shadow Tag is relatively close to controlled sleep (you are free to point out any significant differences) is that we are calling for a ban on Shadow Tag, but we are fine with controlled sleep, which is inconsistent. Most people are not calling for a total ban on sleep and are mostly satisfied with Sleep Clause (I know some people would like to differ, but they are definitely the minority). Now, the post that I linked was more directed at Mega Gengar, so there was an element of "well Mega Gengar only incapacitates 1-2 mons at most, but Shadow Tag spans over 3 Pokemon (mainly)". Wobbuffet's pretty close to Gengar in what it generally achieves (creating situations for something else to sweep). I'm aware that Gothitelle is works in a different way, but from what I've actually experienced, Gothitelle needs quite a few pre-conditions to be filled before it can do the more dangerous things it does (eg having Dark-types removed, can't set up on phazers, not getting crit while setting up, etc etc). Otherwise, it's fairly similar to Gengar and Wobbuffet when you haven't gotten rid of its counters already.

This also raises another difference of controlled sleep vs Shadow Tag in the sense that right now, you can use more than 1 Shadow Tag user and therefore can cut down on choice of switching a lot more and gets us closer to what is similar to uncontrolled sleep (ie no meaningful switches). Whether that is still uncompetitive or not is another question I'll address later, but should we compare that to getting 3 Pokemon slept (which I think most people would oppose, and I guess I would too, although that really needs to scrutinised), I'd be much more open to a Sleep Clause-like treatment of Shadow Tag (and while we're at it, trapping in general), ie only one Shadow Tag (or just trapping ability) Pokemon on the one team at a time, rather than a total ban of Shadow Tag.
 
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