Project Don't Use That, Use This (XY/ORAS PU Edition)

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Don't Use That, Use This

The PU ladder is a whacked-up ladder filled with low-ladder players using outclassed or unviable Pokémon or sets such as Slaking and Assault Vest and Power-Up Punch on random Pokémon. This thread strives to end these trends by explaining why these Pokémon or sets are bad or outclassed and which Pokémon or sets can do better in what the other sets try to do.

Here's an example of what to do (taken and edited from a post from the NU edition):

Don't use this:

Slaking @ Choice Band
Ability: Truant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Hammer Arm
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Why it's bad: Sure, Slaking may have stats equivalent to that of Ubers. Sure, its Attack is higher than that of Deoxys-N. So why is Slaking bad? One word: Truant. This is an extremely exploitable ability, as all you have to do is use Protect or predict a move and switch into something that resists it. It gets worn down very easily because of this, and the only way to remove its ability is to use Yamask, and any smart player will not try to use contact moves to get mummified. The worst part about Slaking is that it is massive setup bait because of Truant which can turn the tide away from you.

Use this instead:

Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Rock Climb
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
- Rock Slide / Fire Blast / Iron Head

Why it's better: Tauros is less suspicable to Protect shenanigans that stop Slaking in its tracks, allowing it to have more chances of breaking through its opponent. Sheer Force is an excellent ability for Tauros, as it will not take LO recoil damage from moves with secondary effects, thus making it harder to wear down. Better physical Normal-types aren't just limited to Tauros. Purugly has Defiant, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Fake Out, and U-turn, Bouffalant has decent bulk, Dodrio has Flying coverage as well as Knock Off, Sawsbuck does wonders in sun, Ursaring has Guts for a powerful Facade, Kecleon can use AV, Linoone has Belly Drum and ExtremeSpeed, Stoutland is a great sand cleaner, Vigoroth is bulky with Eviolite, and even niche options like Furfrou, Raticate, Bibarel, Fearow, Persian, Dunsparce, Stantler, and Furret have something that gives them greater niches over Slaking.

RULES:

-Generally, you should post about an unviable or outclassed Pokémon if it receives more usage than (more) viable Pokémon, while you should post about sets used by the Pokémon if they show up in the usage statistics of the month before you create your post, or if you frequently see these sets whenever you are on the ladder.

-Don't just bash certain Pokémon, this is meant to be an educational thread.

Archive
 
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Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't use this:


Marowak @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bonemerang/Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Stealth Rock/Substitute
- Knock Off

Why it's bad: Okay, I have lost count of how many of these I've seen. Leftovers are more common, but I've seen a few Life Orbs in the replays. Why are these bad? Because Marowak has a species-specific item that doubles its Attack stat with no downsides: Thick Club. Let me remind you that Marowak has 80 base Attack; that makes it have rather mediocre offensive presence unboosted, and its only average bulk (not to mention its poor Speed) does not make up for it. Life Orb is 100% outclassed, and while Leftovers is Marowak's only recovery, it's not that hard to run a Wish passer (Togetic and Lickilicky come to mind).

Instead, use this:


Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bonemerang/Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Stealth Rock/Substitute
- Knock Off

Why it's better: With a Thick Club, Marowak's Attack stat hits a hefty 568, which is far and away the best out of anything viable in PU. And really, it's the only legitimate reason to use Marowak in the first place.
 
Reserving post for CB Scyther over CB Ninjask.

Don't use this:

Ninjask @ Choice Band
Abilitiy: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Aerial Ace
- Night Slash
- U-Turn

Why it's bad: While this set does have a lot of surprise value, that doesn't help that Ninjask has limited coverage and is fairly weak, even with a Choice Band. And while it does hit a good speed tier, it's not exactly the most relevant. It also can't really get past its counters all that well.

Use this instead:

Scyther @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Bug Bite
- Aerial Ace
- Brick Break/Knock Off/Quick Attack (Doesn't matter which, all 3 are viable)
- U-Turn

Why it's better: Scyther has greater power going for it, has an actually relevant speed tier, and better coverage, as it can use Brick Break to beat the Rock and Steel types it usually has trouble with. (Ninjask's only hope for doing that is Dig.....)

If you really want to use Ninjask, use its Baton Pass set, which in it of itself is semi-outclassed by SmashPass. (Why the fuck is Huntail FU again?)

Not the best points, but at least you get what I'm trying to say.
 
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13:44 MQJinx !usage zebstrika moves
13:44 TIBot Overheat 81.546% | Volt Switch 71.286% | Thunderbolt 67.893% | Hidden Power Grass 51.992% | Wild Charge 22.807% | Signal Beam 21.824% | Hidden Power Ice 18.232% | Flame Charge 14.633% | Pursuit 12.923% | Bounce 10.314% | Quick Attack 4.572% | Double-Edge 3.124% | Other 18.853%
13:46 MQJinx Hidden Power Grass 51.992%
13:46 MQJinx wtf

Don't use this:

Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper / Lightningrod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power Grass

Why it's bad: Hidden Power Grass has redundant coverage. It really only hits two Pokémon that Zebstrika's other moves don't: Golem and Whiscash. Both Golem and Whiscash are easily taken care of by Grass-types, which are excellent partners for Zebstrika since it can remove Flying-types for them. Although other 4x weak Pokémon like Barbaracle and Carracosta don't like HP Grass, they cannot take a Thunderbolt either, since Thunderbolt actually outdamages HP Grass.

Use this instead:

Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper / Lightningrod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power Water

Why it's better: Hidden Power Water allows Zebstrika to still hit Golem while also dealing serious damage to Camerupt, which is way more relevant in the PU metagame than Whiscash. Camerupt is a formidable threat as it has the bulk and typing to shrug off all of Zebstrika's other options, while it can set up Stealth Rock in any Zebstrika lacking HP Water and then deal hefty damage with Earth Power. With HP Water, Zebstrika can remove Camerupt from the scene altogether, which is a much more common scenario than facing a Whiscash. Hidden Power Ice is also an option to take on Dragon-types.
 
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Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't use this:


Marowak @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bonemerang/Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Stealth Rock/Substitute
- Knock Off

Why it's bad: Okay, I have lost count of how many of these I've seen. Leftovers are more common, but I've seen a few Life Orbs in the replays. Why are these bad? Because Marowak has a species-specific item that doubles its Attack stat with no downsides: Thick Club. Let me remind you that Marowak has 80 base Attack; that makes it have rather mediocre offensive presence unboosted, and its only average bulk (not to mention its poor Speed) does not make up for it. Life Orb is 100% outclassed, and while Leftovers is Marowak's only recovery, it's not that hard to run a Wish passer (Togetic and Lickilicky come to mind).
*facepalm*
 
Seed Bomb 45.891%

Don't use this:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Seed Bomb

Why it's bad: While Seed Bomb seems appealing to use for STAB, in reality it is unnecessary. Most of the targets that are destroyed by Seed Bomb despise getting burned, and are easily stalled out through a combination of Leech Seed and burn damage. Carracosta and Barbaracle, for instance, can no longer sweep with the burn and Leech Seed placing a timer on them, forcing them to attack for pitiful damage.

Use this instead:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rock Slide / Disable / Phantom Force

Why it's better: Gourgeist-S attracts Fire- and Flying-types like a magnet, so Rock Slide is a good option to throw them off-guard. The flinch chance can come in handy in a pinch against foes slower than Gourgeist. Disable takes advantage of Gourgeist's bulk by forcing opposing mons to use weaker options to deal minimal damage to Gourgeist. Phantom Force acts as a pseudo-Protect increasing the residual damage done on the enemy, allowing Gourgeist to recover more health.
 
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Seed Bomb 45.891%

Don't use this:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Seed Bomb

Why it's bad: While Seed Bomb seems appealing to use for STAB, in reality it is unnecessary. Most of the targets that are destroyed by Seed Bomb despise getting burned, and are easily stalled out through a combination of Leech Seed and burn damage. Carracosta and Barbaracle, for instance, can no longer sweep with the burn and Leech Seed placing a timer on them, forcing them to attack for pitiful damage.

Use this instead:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rock Slide / Disable / Phantom Force

Why it's better: Gourgeist-S attracts Fire- and Flying-types like a magnet, so Rock Slide is a good option to throw them off-guard. The flinch chance can come in handy in a pinch against foes slower than Gourgeist. Disable takes advantage of Gourgeist's bulk by forcing opposing mons to use weaker options to deal minimal damage to Gourgeist. Phantom Force acts as a pseudo-Protect increasing the residual damage done on the enemy, allowing Gourgeist to recover more health.
I actually used to use this (albeit with Super instead of Small) back in the pre-PokeBank days. It worked really damn well
 
Well it is better on Gourgeist-Super (XL, whatever the fuck it is), since it's too slow to viably run Phantom Force or Disable unlike Gourgeist-Small.
 
Seed Bomb 45.891%

Don't use this:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Seed Bomb

Why it's bad: While Seed Bomb seems appealing to use for STAB, in reality it is unnecessary. Most of the targets that are destroyed by Seed Bomb despise getting burned, and are easily stalled out through a combination of Leech Seed and burn damage. Carracosta and Barbaracle, for instance, can no longer sweep with the burn and Leech Seed placing a timer on them, forcing them to attack for pitiful damage.

Use this instead:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rock Slide / Disable / Phantom Force

Why it's better: Gourgeist-S attracts Fire- and Flying-types like a magnet, so Rock Slide is a good option to throw them off-guard. The flinch chance can come in handy in a pinch against foes slower than Gourgeist. Disable takes advantage of Gourgeist's bulk by forcing opposing mons to use weaker options to deal minimal damage to Gourgeist. Phantom Force acts as a pseudo-Protect increasing the residual damage done on the enemy, allowing Gourgeist to recover more health.
Well, the main reason to use SS Carracosta is her usable Special Attack for mix sets, you cannot relly on WoW. And i dont like Phantom Force, you are giving free turns to every Normal-type (one of the best types in the tier) and Dark-type, and you dont gain much from it, just a leftovers recovery at the cost of momentum. Disable is cool, that is true.
 
PLEASE Don't use this:

Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate / Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Wild Charge.

Why it's bad:
PU is a tier with Tauros, Purugly, and Bouffalant, three great offensive Normal-types with notable niches over each other. So why on earth would you use Stoutland outside of sand? Well, you absolutely shouldn't. Stoutland has 4 times as much usage as Hippopotas, which is absolutely disgusting as Stoutland is only viable in sand. It's just so outclassed by other Normal-types otherwise. And manual sand setters are terrible, just use Hippopotas.

Instead, use this:


Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Crunch
- Superpower
- Wild Charge

Why it's better:

Simply put, it has an actual niche. Stoutland in sand is a huge threat to most offensive teams. Its fantastic Sand Rush ability gives it a huge niche over its competitors, letting it outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. Either use Stoutland alongside Hippopotas or don't use it at all.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Seed Bomb 45.891%

Don't use this:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Seed Bomb

Why it's bad: While Seed Bomb seems appealing to use for STAB, in reality it is unnecessary. Most of the targets that are destroyed by Seed Bomb despise getting burned, and are easily stalled out through a combination of Leech Seed and burn damage. Carracosta and Barbaracle, for instance, can no longer sweep with the burn and Leech Seed placing a timer on them, forcing them to attack for pitiful damage.

Use this instead:

Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rock Slide / Disable / Phantom Force

Why it's better: Gourgeist-S attracts Fire- and Flying-types like a magnet, so Rock Slide is a good option to throw them off-guard. The flinch chance can come in handy in a pinch against foes slower than Gourgeist. Disable takes advantage of Gourgeist's bulk by forcing opposing mons to use weaker options to deal minimal damage to Gourgeist. Phantom Force acts as a pseudo-Protect increasing the residual damage done on the enemy, allowing Gourgeist to recover more health.
If you are gonna use Gourgeist-Small, you use 32 hp / 252 def / 224 spe. The whole point of it is so that you continuously substall your opponents. By using less hp, you will have 'cheaper subs' and be able to sub more, as you will get more relative recovery. I agree that Seed Bomb is complete garb on it, so the other options are all viable, but the less hp it has, the better it is at doing it's job
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
If you are gonna use Gourgeist-Small, you use 32 hp / 252 def / 224 spe. The whole point of it is so that you continuously substall your opponents. By using less hp, you will have 'cheaper subs' and be able to sub more, as you will get more relative recovery. I agree that Seed Bomb is complete garb on it, so the other options are all viable, but the less hp it has, the better it is at doing it's job
Thats actually a spread found by Punchshroom that maximizes the amount of lefties and leech seed. I do believe. I'll let him elaborate further.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
No, I'm saying the HP spread you are saying is wrong, the 152 allows for the best leech seed and lefties recovery. I'm to lazy to find the original post and I'm on my phone lol.
It's because with 152 HP investment you hit 289, which is a leftovers number. Either way, the less HP you have, the better it is
 
21:45 MQJinx !usage frogadier items
21:45 TIBot Life Orb 56.255% | Choice Scarf 30.815% | Eviolite 4.318% | Choice Specs 4.073% | Other 4.540%

Don't use this:

Frogadier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 36 Atk / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Electric / Grass Knot
- U-turn / Toxic Spikes / Dark Pulse

Why it's bad: Holding a Choice Scarf wastes the main reasons to use Frogadier: Protean and wide coverage. Frogadier would rather have the freedom to switch moves to make the most use out of Protean, and its attack power is only average when unboosted. Also stop using the spread of 36 Atk / 252 SpA / 220 Spe, Frogadier needs all the speed it can get.

Use this instead:

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk (or 4 Def) / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Electric / Grass Knot
- U-turn / Toxic Spikes / Dark Pulse

Why it's better: The freedom to switch moves via Life Orb is the best way to take advantage of Protean, making it difficult to tank all of its attacks unless you're a special wall like Lickilicky. Max investment in Speed allows Frogadier to outspeed as much of PU as possible, and you're not missing much from sacrificing a few Attack EVs.

EDIT: Stoutland is only 66% in the teammates section for Hippopotas WTF it should be 100%

Don't Use This:

Without this:

Why?: Because Hippopotas needs Stoutland to have its niche in PU. With Smooth Rock, Hippopotas can enable Stoutland to clean up late-game. It can wear down threats for Stoutland to finish off, and can use Whirlwind to increase the amount of residual damage done to the opposing team. If you don't have Stoutland on your team, you're better off using some other bulky Ground-type, as Hippoptas is a liability and a waste of a teamslot without the mustachioed dog.

EDIT 2: Baton Pass is only used on 50% of all Huntail, again it should be 100%

Don't use this:

Huntail @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Any fourth move other than Baton Pass

Why it's bad: Offensive Shell Smash sets are outclassed by both Carracosta and Barbaracle. The former has access to Aqua Jet to pluck off weakened threats as well as higher Attack and physical bulk, while the latter has wide coverage and is faster and bulkier than Huntail. Barbaracle can also force switches due to the chance of a defense drop from Razor Shell.

Use this instead:

Huntail @ White Herb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Scald
- Substitute / Ice Beam / Iron Defense

Why it's better: What Huntail has over Carracosta and Barbaracle is access to Baton Pass. SmashPass is a very effective niche in PU and allows a teammate to pull off a sweep once its checks and counters are removed. Just make sure to try to preserve Huntail until late-game in order to make the most out of SmashPass.

EDIT 3: 20% of all Stunfisk are running AV which is stupid

Don't use this:

Stunfisk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Discharge
- Scald
- Sludge Bomb

Why it's bad: While it may be tempting to slap AV on Stunfisk because of its bulk, it is a rather mediocre AV user. This is because of two reasons: its decent support movepool and its little offensive presence. Stunfisk has a Special Attack of 81, meaning it won't hit that hard without boosts.

Use this instead:

Stunfisk @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Discharge
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Yawn / Rest

Why it's better: With a defensive set, Stunfisk makes for a good pivot as it can cripple faster mons with Discharge and Static, force switches with Yawn, and wear down defensive mons with Toxic. It is also the only Electric-type in PU that can set up Stealth Rock, and its Ground typing can deal with any Electric-type that faces off against it. Rest can also be used if you have a Heal Bell user such as Lickilicky or Togetic.

EDIT 4: Defog is used on only 57% of all Swanna which is outrageous

Don't use this:

Swanna @ Life Orb
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Scald
- Any fourth move other than Defog

Why it's bad: Without Defog, Swanna is outclassed by a number of Pokémon. For instance, Chatot has Boomburst and confusion with Chatter, Frogadier has Protean and wide coverage, and Simipour has wide coverage and access to Nasty Plot. If you're not using Swanna for Defog, these three can prove to be better for your team.

Use this instead:

Swanna @ Life Orb
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Roost / Rest
- Scald
- Defog

Why it's better: Defog is a must on Swanna to give it a niche on PU. It is one of the best offensive Defoggers in the metagame, as its high Speed enables it to get a sacrificial Defog when needed to help clear the way for hazard-weak sweepers. Rest is an alternative choice over Roost if you're using Swanna in a rain team. Either use Defog on Swanna or use a different mon altogether.

EDIT 5: Only 41% of all Simipour are running NP which is disgusting

Don't use this:

Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Any fourth move other than Nasty Plot

Why it's bad: Simply put, sets without Nasty Plot are outclassed by Frogadier due to Protean and roughly the same amount of coverage. Frogadier is harder to switch into because of the boosted power in Protean, and the extra 4 points in Speed won't matter much when they both have similar defensive checks and counters, they get revenged by the same threats, and Simipour doesn't outspeed anything relevant that Frogadier misses out on.

Use this instead:

Simipour @ Salac Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot

Why it's better: SubSalac Simipour is one decent sweeper in PU. Simipour is one of the only Water-types that can learn Nasty Plot, which gives it its niche over Frogadier. After a Salac boost, Simipour can outspeed the entire unboosted meta and proceed to wreck havoc on the opposing team. Either use Nasty Plot or use Frogadier.
 

Attachments

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ded

anyway this thing has like 4% usage despite being horribly outclassed, so time to (probably not but whatever) fix that

Don't use this:


Lumineon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Defog
- U-turn
- Toxic

Why it's bad:
Despite having access to Defog, Lumineon is not a very good choice. Its most effective role is as a bulky Water-type that can use Defog, however its defensive stats are incredibly lackluster compared to common bulky waters such as Poliwrath and Mantine. It also lacks recovery outside of Rest, which is another huge downside. However, Lumineon's main flaw is that it is incredibly outclassed at what it attempts to do. PU is a tier that is by nature lacking in good Pokemon to fill a few roles which upper tiers take for granted. However, good Water-type Defoggers is not one of these roles. There are multiple good offensive and defensive Water-type Defoggers in PU, one of which can even run a variation of the exact same set, making Lumineon's use incredibly difficult to justify.

Instead, use this:


Pelipper @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Defog
- U-turn / Toxic
- Roost

Why it's better:
This set is almost identical to the one above, however, Pelipper does a much, much better job of Defogging than Lumineon could ever hope to do. Compared to Lumineon's paltry defensive stats, Pelipper has outstanding stats that exemplify its role rather than hinder it. While its secondary Flying-type does make it weak to Stealth Rock, it also means that it is immune to the common Spikes and Toxic Spikes that it aims to remove. It also lets Pelipper wall threats such as Poliwrath and Throh quite admirably, something which Lumineon could only dream of doing. It also has access to reliable recovery in Roost, letting it stick around much longer. Even if Pelipper doesn't seem appealing for whatever reason, the more specially bulky Mantine and the more offensive Swanna are also fine options. Together, the three of them leave Lumineon with little to no niche in the PU tier.


Oh and btw MQJinx you should put an archive in the op, it just makes things nicer in general.
 
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14% of all Sneasel are running Brick Break, this should be fixed

Don't use this:

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Ice Punch
- Brick Break

Why it's bad: Brick Break is, in a nutshell, outclassed as a Fighting-type coverage move on Sneasel. The few targets that Brick Break hits harder than Low Kick are rare (Bibarel, for instance). You miss some KOs on heavier Pokemon that tend to be more relevant in PU.

Use this instead:

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Ice Punch
- Low Kick

Why it's better: Since a lot of relevant PU mons are heavy so that Low Kick has 80+ BP, it completely outclasses Brick Break. This increase in power can be the difference between an Avalugg using Recover and a KO'd Avalugg, for example. Why waste your effort on irrelevant Pokemon when you can smack down Avalugg and Barbaracle harder?

EDIT

Don't use this:

Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Earthquake / Roar / Toxic

Why it's bad: Physically defensive Avalugg is redundant. Avalugg's Defense is already very high, so max investment will only make a 10% decrease in damage from physical attacks. This Avalugg is vulnerable to special attackers due to its poor natural bulk on the special side.

Use this instead:

Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Earthquake / Roar / Toxic

Why it's better: By investing in Special Defense, you trade 10% less damage from physical attacks to 30% less damage from special attacks. This allows Avalugg to at least do something against special attackers rather than fall to an easy KO. This is important considering its SR weakness.
 
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Anty

let's drop
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Dont use this:

Bastiodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Toxic
- Earthquake / Iron Head / Heavy Slam / Stone Edge
These moves got over 40% usage on Bastiodon together. If you look at bastiodons stats you see excellent defenses but poor attack stats. This is because bastiodon is not meant to be an attacker, you are not doing enough damage to warrant using them:
0 Atk Bastiodon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 160 Def Eviolite Togetic: 84-98 (26.8 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
That is super effective damage. Now look at Pokemon that commonly carry taunt:
0 Atk Bastiodon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 52-63 (14.2 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Bastiodon Stone Edge vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 66-78 (23 - 27.2%) -- 44.3% chance to 4HKO
You are set up fodder to them.

Use That instead:

Bastiodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Toxic
- Magic Coat / Metal Burst
These moves are so much better than attacks as they actually can do something. Magic Coat stops those taunting pokemon from using you as set up fodder and allows you to toxic stall them, it also reflects hazards, allowing it to annoy common leads like kricketune and glalie (who also fail to taunt you). Whilst metal burst allows you to deal decent damage (note: you want to carry 0 speed and a - speed nature) as you can easily take a hit anyway.




Do not use this:

Dusknoir @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Shadow Punch
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
The fact that this gets any usage at all amazes me. Dusknoir already hasdecent special defense to there is no need to raise it, but what it lacks is a good attack due to weak moves. Power Up Punch is an awful way to set up as you are never going to successfully sweep or do much damage to walls anyway, and it can easily be revenge killed due to horrible speed and its not even running priority, which is essential for it. I havent even mentioned its inability to switch in due to lack of recovery.

If you want to use offensive Dusknoir:


Dusknoir @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Trick
- Shadow Sneak
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
This actually capitalises dusknoirs weak attack stats and compensates with a choice band, allowing you to do some damage of the bat. Strong priority is also nice, allowing you to revenge killed weakened threats, whilst actually doing something to offensive teams. But the best part about is trick, as it allows dusknoir to cripple switch ins, like piloswine, making them much more easier to take down, allowing it to do something against defensive teams
 
Don't use this:

Mightyena @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Fire Fang

Why it's bad: Jolly Mightyena doesn't hit that hard. Sure, you outspeed Misdreavus, but in return you fail on some key KOs that you could be getting with Adamant. Fire Fang is outclassed as a coverage move to hit Grass-types, as it really hits only two targets hard to be appealing: Parasect and Snover.

Use this instead:

Mightyena @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Ice Fang / Thunder Fang

Why it's better: Adamant Mightyena has significantly more offensive presence than Jolly Mightyena, and besides, you have Sucker Punch for faster threats anyway. Ice Fang still hits Grass-types while also hitting Togetic and inflicting more damage on Torterra. Thunder Fang can also be used to beat Pelipper.

Don't use this:

With any of the following moves: Moonblast, Ice Beam, Dazzling Gleam, Aerial Ace
Why? Because these moves are bad on Altaria. Moonblast, Dazzling Gleam, and Ice Beam aren't good because you already have Dragon moves to take on opposing dragons. Aerial Ace is pitifully weak even after several DDs and does not provide any coverage whatsoever.

EDIT

Don't use this:

Bouffalant @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Charge
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn

Why it's bad: While it may be tempting to slap AV onto Bouffalant due to its bulk, there is one problem. Bouffalant is incredibly slow, leaving it prone to being worn down over time. With a limited lifespan and no recovery attacks, as well as the fact that it wears itself down with Head Charge, Bouffalant is a rather meh AV user.

Use this instead:

Bouffalant @ Choice Band
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Charge
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn

Why it's better: Even though CB Bouffalant is still worn down over time, at least it can punch holes in teams before getting taken down. And besides, it's not hard to run Wish passers to keep Bouffalant's HP at a high level (Lickilicky/Togetic). If you have a limited lifespan, at least inflict as much damage on your foe as possible.
 
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Don't use this

Golem @ Leftovers/Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
Why it's bad: While Golem's defense makes using it as a bulky, long term stealth rocker seem attractive, it's let down by low special defense and bad typing. All the electric types carry HP water/Ice or surf, the fire types have Giga Drain, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, or Superpower, and poison types are either irrelevant or sometimes carry seed bomb (Garb). Golem is also outclassed as a rocker that sets up multiple times by Stunfisk, Carracosta, and Solrock. While I've never seen red card, this one guy started spamming it in the PU chat so it might be a thing.

Instead try

View attachment 29764

Golem @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock/Rock Polish

Why it's better: This set makes use of Golem's sturdy ability as a solid suicide lead which can make use of the Sturdy/WP combo introduced this gen, allowing it to set up Rocks and hit like a truck. Rock Polish makes it a very threatening sweeper as well if it isn't needed for rocks. It almost guarantees a kill against offensive teams and can still provide support against defensive teams if the weakness policy is activated, and isn't just outclassed by other mons like bulky Golem is.
definitely going to disagree with you on this. while wp sr golem isn't terrible (rock polish golem is pretty bad though), lefties golem is in absolutely no way a bad set. the point of using it isn't to be able to set sr up on everything, it's to have a reliable non-suicide sr setter for offensive teams. golem has plenty of things over other sr setters you'd use on offense like marowak and piloswine, namely a flying resist, stab edgequake, sucker punch, and sturdy. it's definitely not outclassed by stunfisk, which checks completely different things and has much, much lower offensive presence, or solrock (this isn't even remotely offensive ?_?). It faces a bit more competition with carracosta, but it has a few things over it, like an electric resist instead of a weakness (which also means it doesn't have bad synergy with poliwrath like costa does), stab earthquake, and sucker punch. all in all, in a tier where there aren't many viable stealth rockers for offensive teams, golem certainly isn't a bad choice if you need something that can actually set sr more than once per game (especially since there aren't any suicide spikers that get sr barring the mighty dwebble).
 

MZ

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definitely going to disagree with you on this. while wp sr golem isn't terrible (rock polish golem is pretty bad though), lefties golem is in absolutely no way a bad set. the point of using it isn't to be able to set sr up on everything, it's to have a reliable non-suicide sr setter for offensive teams. golem has plenty of things over other sr setters you'd use on offense like marowak and piloswine, namely a flying resist, stab edgequake, sucker punch, and sturdy. it's definitely not outclassed by stunfisk, which checks completely different things and has much, much lower offensive presence, or solrock (this isn't even remotely offensive ?_?). It faces a bit more competition with carracosta, but it has a few things over it, like an electric resist instead of a weakness (which also means it doesn't have bad synergy with poliwrath like costa does), stab earthquake, and sucker punch. all in all, in a tier where there aren't many viable stealth rockers for offensive teams, golem certainly isn't a bad choice if you need something that can actually set sr more than once per game (especially since there aren't any suicide spikers that get sr barring the mighty dwebble).
Lefties on Golem isn't the awful part, the fact is that defensive Golem only beats flying types. For example, if you look at the offensive mons in the viability rankings from S to A-, the only three that won't hit it super effectively are Purugly, Chatot, and Dodrio. By running max HP it's quite easy to outspeed and defeat it with even things like Pelipper that it was supposed to take out with a stone edge. It has offensive presence, but won't outspeed anything. My issue isn't with lefties (I mean, I guess it's okay), but running max HP on Golem is bad. Just scroll through the viability rankings and try to pick out the mons that won't deal significant damage to it or just U-turn out on the switch. However, max speed makes it fast enough to set up rocks or attack and pressure opponents that much more, plus it means Pelipper and Togetic can't roost before you stone edge. Editing the OP to highlight the change and remove Stunfisk because it does wall different mons, although I don't see how a base 95 attack STAB Zen Headbutt or Stone Edge from Solrock, even uninvested, qualifies as "not remotely offensive", it has the same attack as Poliwrath and stronger STABs (other than focus PAWNCH). On a side note, have we ever actually agreed on a mon being good/bad? Are my choices that controversial? From now on I'm just going to pop in to say Poliwrath is good and skip all this.
 

scorpdestroyer

it's a skorupi egg
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Lefties on Golem isn't the awful part, the fact is that defensive Golem only beats flying types. For example, if you look at the offensive mons in the viability rankings from S to A-, the only three that won't hit it super effectively are Purugly, Chatot, and Dodrio. By running max HP it's quite easy to outspeed and defeat it with even things like Pelipper that it was supposed to take out with a stone edge. It has offensive presence, but won't outspeed anything. My issue isn't with lefties (I mean, I guess it's okay), but running max HP on Golem is bad. Just scroll through the viability rankings and try to pick out the mons that won't deal significant damage to it or just U-turn out on the switch. However, max speed makes it fast enough to set up rocks or attack and pressure opponents that much more, plus it means Pelipper and Togetic can't roost before you stone edge. Editing the OP to highlight the change and remove Stunfisk because it does wall different mons, although I don't see how a base 95 attack STAB Zen Headbutt or Stone Edge from Solrock, even uninvested, qualifies as "not remotely offensive", it has the same attack as Poliwrath and stronger STABs (other than focus PAWNCH). On a side note, have we ever actually agreed on a mon being good/bad? Are my choices that controversial? From now on I'm just going to pop in to say Poliwrath is good and skip all this.
Max HP Golem provides:
- Normal check
- Bird check
- Scyther check
- Volt Switch absorber
- Stealth Rock setter
- Priority
- Doesn't get worn down as easily as uninvited Golem
- Still hits hard with dual STABs

Max HP Golem fits a lot better on most teams that are not HO. There aren't a lot of Pokemon that can fulfill all of the above roles and continue to do so enough times in a match while hitting hard. It definitely does its job well enough. I suggest you try out max HP Golem on a team before saying it is bad; it can switch in on a lot more stuff than you think and can actually function as a better tank than max Speed. In fact, I have never actually considered running max Spe on my Golem because of how consistent bulky Golem is at switching into stuff.

Regarding Solrock, Magnemite was saying that it isn't offensive because Solrock doesn't have the natural bulk to allow it to invest in its offensive stats and it doesn't actually hit hard. None of the other alternatives you mentioned can completely replace Golem, either.

---

For the future it's probably a better idea to actually be sure that the "Don't Use This" mon should actually never be used. This is PU where a lot of things work, so unless there's an extremely convincing reason or unless you've already tried it, please don't say "Don't Use This" (looking at stuff like AV Bouff and non-Defog Swanna; I'm not entirely convinced they are horrible)
 
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MZ

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Max HP Golem provides:
- Normal check
- Bird check
- Scyther check
- Volt Switch absorber
- Stealth Rock setter
- Priority
- Doesn't get worn down as easily as uninvited Golem
- Still hits hard with dual STABs

Max HP Golem fits a lot better on most teams that are not HO. There aren't a lot of Pokemon that can fulfill all of the above roles and continue to do so enough times in a match while hitting hard. It definitely does its job we'll enough. I suggest you try out max HP Golem on a team before saying it is bad; it can switch in on a lot more stuff than you think and can actually function as a better tank than max Speed. In fact, I have never actually considered running max Spe on my Golem because of how consistent bulky Golem is at switching into stuff.

Regarding Solrock, Magnemite was saying that it isn't offensive because Solrock doesn't have the natural bulk to allow it to invest in its offensive stats and it doesn't actually hit hard. None of the other alternatives you mentioned can completely replace Golem, either.

---

For the future it's probably a better idea to actually be sure that the "Don't Use This" mon should actually never be used. This is PU where a lot of things work, so unless there's an extremely convincing reason or unless you've already tried it, please don't say "Don't Use This" (looking at stuff like AV Bouff and non-Defog Swanna; I'm not entirely convinced they are horrible)
My point was intended to be that things like Scyther just clicks U-turn, all volt switchers can hit ground types, and normals like bouffalant always have EQ or Superpower, but maybe it does take hits better than I think, although I've never seen it be anything more than a waste of space. However, if my suggestion is not viable, then why are AV Bouff and non-nasty Simipour on here? (Simipour can do mixed, taunt, or specs, nasty is the best but certainly not the only set). Also, I'm on a mobile device right now but I am gonna reserve/suggest that Meganium, Electabuzz, and Persian are done, as they hold no significant niche in the meta.
 

scorpdestroyer

it's a skorupi egg
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
How would fast Golem deal with U-turn stuff / coverage moves any better than max HP + Lefties? It probably does worse because it can't switch into U-turn as much as tank Golem can :/

And yeah like I said I don't think we should be too quick to jump out and say something sucks unless it's obvious enough / been tested.
 
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