Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[soulgazer]

i agree with liepard to a, but its not the weather set that makes it good; psychic- and ghost-types have been more and more popular, and Liepard can abuse that with its NP set and pivot set.

@ below its not hard to overwhelm hariyama early/midgame for liepard to clean late game lol

 

[ryan]

tbf NP Liepard is not as good in this meta. Hariyama is goddamnn everywhere, and sweeping with mono-attacking Dark coverage is nearly impossible.

speaking of which, can we move Hariyama to a+ or at least a? it's amazing in this meta, checking like half the meta on its own with Thick Fat to check Fire-types and coverage to hit everything it needs to. if you're worried about Garbodor setting up Spikes on it, you can run Earthquake. if you're worried about Slurpuff setting up on it or Granbull coming in for free, you can run Heavy Slam. if your team is slow and you need some way to check faster offensive mons, you can run Fake Out. if you're worried about stuff like Vileplume, you can run Ice Punch. you can even run Toxic or Bulk Up with Leftovers and still check tons of shit. it's like one of the best Pokemon in this metagame, and it's one of the things making Typhlosion's rise to s not a no-brainer. I honestly think Hariyama should be a+, but it's definitely better than a-.

 

[watashi]

i agree with hariyama being a+, it checks everything and can beat pretty much every fighting-type counter with the right coverage move and even gets guts for will-o-wisp. you can just slap it on any type of team and it'll do well

 

[Pooch13]

tbf NP Liepard is not as good in this meta. Hariyama is goddamnn everywhere, and sweeping with mono-attacking Dark coverage is nearly impossible.

speaking of which, can we move Hariyama to a+ or at least a? it's amazing in this meta, checking like half the meta on its own with Thick Fat to check Fire-types and coverage to hit everything it needs to. if you're worried about Garbodor setting up Spikes on it, you can run Earthquake. if you're worried about Slurpuff setting up on it or Granbull coming in for free, you can run Heavy Slam. if your team is slow and you need some way to check faster offensive mons, you can run Fake Out. if you're worried about stuff like Vileplume, you can run Ice Punch. you can even run Toxic or Bulk Up with Leftovers and still check tons of shit. it's like one of the best Pokemon in this metagame, and it's one of the things making Typhlosion's rise to s not a no-brainer. I honestly think Hariyama should be a+, but it's definitely better than a-.

don't forget it gets knock off and bullet punch too to stop slurpuff BD set.

Anyway, milktank to B rank. That thing is pure bulk And has only one weakness making it a great physical wall as well as having access to thick fat and sapsipper to give it some extra resistances. It has reliable recovery, heal bell so it can't be toxic/burn stalled and support the rest of the team. Access to rocks too is nice but what sets it apart is its speed. it has great speed for a wall/support mon which lets it move before other walls as well as some slow offensive mons.

I was adviced to not try to make a case Mil because it is outclassed by audino and other supports but the fact that it has immediate recovery, better speed and rocks make me think it deserves a boost up

 

[soulgazer]

doink! i know i've been a little slow on the uptake, so i'm considering creating a viability council that has the ability to update our ranks in the OP. this comes with some special privileges and responsibilities and i'm not quite sure how i'm going to efficiently allow others to update it, but if you're interested, please send myself a PM stating why you believe you should be allowed onto the viability council. responsibilities of the viability council (which will include me) will include updating the OP when a posted change has been OK'd, discussing controversial subjects, and not abusing your abilities just bc you feel like a mon belongs somewhere.

barbaracle from b to b-
bouffalant from b- to b
cradily from c- to c+
flareon from b- to b
gorebyss from b+ to a-
grumpig from c to b-
heatmor from unlisted to c-
kadabra from c to b-
kangaskhan from a- to a
linoone from c+ to b-
meowstic-m from c to c+
ninetales from b- to b
primeape from b- to b
rotom-s from b to b+
sandslash from c+ to b-
sceptile from a- to a
simipour from c+ to b
sneasel from b to b+
stoutland from c- to c
torterra from c+ to b
zebstrika from c+ to c

OP updated with these changes tomorrow at noon-ish, i get home from work at 11:30am

since i had free time i decided to update the OP for you ;) all you did is put kangaskhan to a and you forgot the rest >:(

 

[Deej Dy]

I too believe Weezing should rise to B+, it blocks both types of set-up Slurpuffs, has amazing bulk, will-o, recovery (albeit somewhat unreliable), great movepool, toxic spikes (<3), and is a great check to the vast majority of physical mons in the entire tier (also you can slap on a rocky helmet to make it that much worse for them.

The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't absorb t spikes, if it did I would certainly use it on every team.

Some Calcs:

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 107-127 (32 - 38%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery Procede to will-o, attack or double switch

252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 220-259 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery Takes an unresisted Facade from Zangoose better than any other barring the never used in Neverused, Avalugg

+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Gatr at +2 doesnt even 2 KO if Weezing is black sludge. Retaliate with sludge bomb/wisp. Only problem is Lum berry Gatr

Also would still like to push Ninetales for B+ for being an amazing stall breaker and fast set up sweeper.

Edit: Also may look in to arguing to drop Poliwrath from B+

 

[eden]

but bro...Psychic? I doubt it OHKO's even after CM but it kinda deters Weezing from the special variant at least?

 

[Deej Dy]

Slurpuff Psychic isn't common enough to warrant too much of a threat to Weezing, if slurpuff packs psychic it lacks either FlameThrower, Surf, or Cotton guard, making itself much more vulnerable than it would like to be to the likes of the plethora of strong Fire-types in the tier (Ninetales, Ty, Camerupt, Magmortar Pyroar, Etc) I could simply pack a fire type (as most teams do) and destroy puff without a 2nd thought. (dont even get me started on priority moves)

You can argue to carry surf, and then the common Cryogonal walls you, so a psychic Slurpuff is not much of a threat
I continue to support Weezing for B+ rank


Calcs:
+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 162-191 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
4 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 146-174 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO

And this is assuming Slurpuff has already been given a turn to set up on you (also clear smog is always an option for Puff/gatr in conjunction with Painsplit)



Edit: Maybe I can go on a limb and nominate puff for A+ rather than S, although it is still plenty threatening

 

[ryan]

Slurpuff Psychic isn't common enough to warrant too much of a threat to Weezing, if slurpuff packs psychic it lacks either FlameThrower, Surf, or Cotton guard, making itself much more vulnerable than it would like to be to the likes of the plethora of strong Fire-types in the tier (Ninetales, Ty, Camerupt, Magmortar Pyroar, Etc) I could simply pack a fire type (as most teams do) and destroy puff without a 2nd thought. (dont even get me started on priority moves)

You can argue to carry surf, and then the common Cryogonal walls you, so a psychic Slurpuff is not much of a threat
I continue to support Weezing for B+ rank

Psychic Slurpuff is really good. Hitting Poison-types is much more important than hitting Fire-types because Poison-types donk you with their stab, and Fire-types don't. You also get to kill Qwilfish before it Thunder Waves or Destiny Bonds. You can also get past Dragalge this way. Plus, Fire-types are weak to Stealth Rock and generally far less bulky in NU than Poison-types, which makes taking them out with a neutral coverage move much easier.

+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 121-143 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Ninetales Flamethrower vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 91-108 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 3HKO

big threat imo

 

[Toljik]

don't forget it gets knock off and bullet punch too to stop slurpuff BD set.

Anyway, milktank to B rank. That thing is pure bulk And has only one weakness making it a great physical wall as well as having access to thick fat and sapsipper to give it some extra resistances. It has reliable recovery, heal bell so it can't be toxic/burn stalled and support the rest of the team. Access to rocks too is nice but what sets it apart is its speed. it has great speed for a wall/support mon which lets it move before other walls as well as some slow offensive mons.

I was adviced to not try to make a case Mil because it is outclassed by audino and other supports but the fact that it has immediate recovery, better speed and rocks make me think it deserves a boost up

Miltank feels too middle of the road to be high up. It's bulky, but not overly so, and has some offensive presence, but isn't a true offensive Pokemon. It learns several good support moves, but Wish is a pretty big absence. Speed alone isn't that impressive when Tauros, Lickilicky, Audino and even Kecleon have good advantages of their own.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Miltank feels too middle of the road to be high up. It's bulky, but not overly so, and has some offensive presence, but isn't a true offensive Pokemon. It learns several good support moves, but Wish is a pretty big absence.

Saying that wish is a pretty big absence is a bad argument imo, because milk drink is a perfectly fine form of recovery for miltank to work with. The only thing is that while it does have thick fat, normal type is pretty bad defensively.

 

[Toljik]

Saying that wish is a pretty big absence is a bad argument imo, because milk drink is a perfectly fine form of recovery for miltank to work with. The only thing is that while it does have thick fat, normal type is pretty bad defensively.

I'm just not convinced of the utility of a cleric that can't heal its own teammates, when ones who can are plentiful in NU.

 

[Pooch13]

Miltank feels too middle of the road to be high up. It's bulky, but not overly so, and has some offensive presence, but isn't a true offensive Pokemon. It learns several good support moves, but Wish is a pretty big absence. Speed alone isn't that impressive when Tauros, Lickilicky, Audino and even Kecleon have good advantages of their own.

That is precisely why i was told to not make a case about it haha I know the cleric set is outclassed, as much as every other set of Miltank, but Audino is pretty predictable and you know, youre not forced to use Miltank as a cleric. Milk Drink allows it to recover HP immediately and Normal is not a bad defensive typing actually, only one weakness and with Miltanks bulk neutral hits rarely do more than 30-40% meaning its 3HKOed.

B rank is not that high, but miltank is certainly more viable than many of the C rank mons, If you ve faced one you know it can be a nuissance to deal with because you never know the set it carries.

 

[ryan]

B rank is not that high, but miltank is certainly more viable than many of the C rank mons, If you ve faced one you know it can be a nuissance to deal with because you never know the set it carries.

Yeah, but I never face it.

Because it's shit.

 

[Celever]

I would like to nominate Mantine from C- to C+/B-

While Mantine is definitely not the best Pokémon, it is very good at what it does. It has pretty great typing for this tier (quad-weakness to Electric is remedied by the fairly noticeable lack of electric-type in the tier (sure we have the rotoms, but that's pretty much it)). You may say that it is eclipsed by Pelipper, but I disagree. First of all, Pelipper is defensive physically, whereas Mantine is defensive specially. Mantine also has superior stats in everything but Defense. I would say that Pelipper is more appealing, because it has Knock Off and Hurricane, whereas Mantine is stuck with Air Slash. Mantine also lacks Roost, which is a huge deal all things considered. Even with those flaws and the harsh competition in Pelipper, though, it is consistent when it has to be. ChestoResto with Scald / Air Slash / Defog / Rest is a consistent and viable set, as is its B/W ResTalk set (albeit lacking Defog). Mantine is also quite versatile, being able to pull of a strong Swift Swim set (and is great for a bulky rain team weak to hazards, js) and if your team has serious trouble with opposing rain teams, Mantine is probably better for tackling them than its competition thanks to Water Absorb. Kabutops is also in the tier as a physical spinner powerful in rain, but it has worse defensive typing, and the comparison isn't very equal because they play out very differently on teams. I just feel like C- is much too low for Mantine, because it is a consistent Defogger and has some pretty good sets outside of it.

What happened to this? It wasn't in the last of changes, but I didn't see any objections to it. In fact the general consensus was the upper half of the options -- B-. You may have just forgotten to put it in the list of changes, so I'm bringing it back to everyone's attention.

 

[Pooch13]

Yeah, but I never face it.

Because it's shit.

Its bulk is very similar to licki's and bigger than Audino's but it has the chance to get a couple more resistances.

Remember that Pawn and Ferro where at one point low on the rankings because they were not considered viable or as viable as they are now. Miltank has some things going on for him that Licki and Audino don't.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

The thing with Miltank, is you either use it as wall that can barely support the team (Support in terms of moves, most of what it tries to run is outclassed by Audino because of Cow not having Regenator), or a weaker Bouffalant (Or weaker Kangaskhan in the case of Scrappy Miltank) that can set-up rocks. Then again, it's just as niche as something like Grumpig, and even then, you're better off using Pig as a defensive check to Fire spam, as it has better special defense as well as phazing. While yes Miltank has the niche as being one of the only Stealth Rock setters that doesn't lose to either Water- or Grass-types (Though some of these run Fighting-type coverage so I dunno), and while yes it has recovery not named Wish or Rest, but imo Miltank shouldn't move up. (It should be PU by now by it's a Mediocre Pokemon the lower ladder spams much like Malamar and Armaldo (Why the fuck is that still NU by usage even when Kabu exists?))

Also, I do want to nominate Octillery and Monferno moving off the list. Octillery had a niche back when Combusken pass existed, but as a SmashPass or CM Pass recipent it's outclassed by almost everything else because of how slow it is and not being very bulky for being that slow. Monferno's only niche was beating Shiftry, but now Shiftry's gone. Does Monferno even have a notable niche anymore?

 

[Deej Dy]

The thing about miltank is that it is completely walled by rocks if it chooses the offensive route, it is outclassed as audino/musharna as a bulky cleric or wish passer, and its use as a curse sweeper is awful.

It's best bet is bulky heal bell/rocks/milk drink and not much else, although sap sipper/scrappy and its speed save it from dropping even lower

 

[soulgazer]

Miltank is fine where its at. The only good set that I can think of that doesn't face too much competition is like Scrappy Seismic Toss / Toxic / Milk Drink / Stealth Rock as it let Miltank not be set up fodder against Ghost- and Steel-types and you can just spread Toxic everywhere and set up Stealth Rock. Thick Fat is nice, but Hariyama and Grumpig are better Fire- and Ice-type checks. Sap Sipper is probably better than Thick Fat, but idk.

Also Celever Mantine should not be B-. Far from the best Defog user and rely on RestTalk (its not bad, but its not roost) to heal. RestoChesto also doesn't rly work well when a lot of stuff run Knock Off (especially Seismitoad, which Mantine switches on). I can just see it in C- or C tbh.

 

[jake]

Congratulations to Soulgazer Raseri (WHO WOULDA THUNK IT) Montsegur tennisace Hollywood and Brawlfest for making the first Viability Council alongside myself! The council will basically serve as respected opinions in this thread, and have the power to incite changes to the OP. All changes will be posted in a format similar to what I have been doing for ~24 hours before they're locked into the OP, so the OP is not constantly shifting because council member x keeps changing his opinion on Zubat.

Basically, this just means that the thread will be updated more often and more of the community will have a big hand in helping out with this thread. Everyone's opinions will still carry the exact same weight, and we will always make sure to have a thorough discussion about controversial topics when applicable. :^)

 

[Davon]

from C to B. Rampardos is really great in this metagame because of the combination of moldbreaker and rocks, as well as unresisted coverage with stone edge and earthquake besides torterra which isnt even common. moldbreaker and rocks guarantees rocks are up against teams that rely on xatu to prevent hazards, you dont lose momentum if they switch xatu in and dont have to worry about xatu switching in at all. moldbreaker is also a very great antilead for crustles because rampardos ohkos with stone edge regardless of sturdy. also, rampardos can take advantage of its low defenses by using endeavor to cripple the opponent after you get your rocks up, or you can save it later in the game for crippling a wall. rampardos also threatens every spinner in the tier barring sandslash, so theyre pressured to attack you and not spin. oh yeah, it can also use fire punch/superpower for ferroseeds that try to switch in on stone edge :p

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

from C to B. Rampardos is really great in this metagame because of the combination of moldbreaker and rocks, as well as unresisted coverage with stone edge and earthquake besides torterra which isnt even common. moldbreaker and rocks guarantees rocks are up against teams that rely on xatu to prevent hazards, you dont lose momentum if they switch xatu in and dont have to worry about xatu switching in at all. moldbreaker is also a very great antilead for crustles because rampardos ohkos with stone edge regardless of sturdy. also, rampardos can take advantage of its low defenses by using endeavor to cripple the opponent after you get your rocks up, or you can save it later in the game for crippling a wall. rampardos also threatens every spinner in the tier barring sandslash, so theyre pressured to attack you and not spin. oh yeah, it can also use fire punch/superpower for ferroseeds that try to switch in on stone edge :p

Rampardos is slow, frail and doesn't have a very good defensive typing. It doesn't deserve the B rank, because it can't switch in on anything really, can't check anything (except maybe switching into khangaskhan once or twice), and gets outdoes without a scarf. It's not even a good scarfer cause of it's low speed, meaning other scarfers and speed boosting sweepers outspeeds it, keeping it from being good at revenge killing some threats. I think C is good for it, because it shows all the deficiencies accompanying the pure strength

 

[Evan.]

Rampardos is slow, frail and doesn't have a very good defensive typing. It doesn't deserve the B rank, because it can't switch in on anything really, can't check anything (except maybe switching into khangaskhan once or twice), and gets outdoes without a scarf. It's not even a good scarfer cause of it's low speed, meaning other scarfers and speed boosting sweepers outspeeds it, keeping it from being good at revenge killing some threats. I think C is good for it, because it shows all the deficiencies accompanying the pure strength

Somebody obviously didn't read the post lmao.

Rampardos' niche isnt as a Scarfer or a check to anything defensively. It acts as a great lead rock setter for offensive teams as it can OHKO the ever so common lead Crustle through Sturdy, as well as get up rocks against teams with Xatu due to it's great ability in Mold Breaker. It also has Endeavor to beat up on slower mons like Seismitoad if it gets knocked down to it's sash. Although I do believe that Rampardos should move up, B does seem a little too high for me. Probably B- is where it fits for me.

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

Somebody obviously didn't read the post lmao.

Rampardos' niche isnt as a Scarfer or a check to anything defensively. It acts as a great lead rock setter for offensive teams as it can OHKO the ever so common lead Crustle through Sturdy, as well as get up rocks against teams with Xatu due to it's great ability in Mold Breaker. It also has Endeavor to beat up on slower mons like Seismitoad if it gets knocked down to it's sash. Although I do believe that Rampardos should move up, B does seem a little too high for me. Probably B- is where it fits for me.

I read the post, I didn't mention the lead set because I didn't think it was worth considering. Having considered it, I agree it has a niche, being able to do a few hings other suicide leads can't. However it has problems as a suicide lead. It doesn't learn spikes, it's slow and easy to taunt, and it doesn't offer utility later in the game, for reasons already stated. So yeah, C rank for filling a niche, but being generally outclassed by crustle seems fair.

Edit: also it doesn't matter if it's niche is to check things, as basically any pokemon worth using checks at least some pokemon, which a very frail rock type can't really do.

 

[Punchshroom]

Crustle is used as a hazard stacking lead, while lead Rampardos generally functions as an anti-lead with Taunt and Stealth Rock, kind of like BW Aerodactyl and DP Azelf. Rampardos also has perks such as Mold Breaker, allowing it to OHKO said Crustle and bypass Magic Bounce Xatu, as well as enough attack power to discourage most Taunt and Defog users. Its offensive movepool is also very diverse, allowing it to take on a wallbreaking role with Life Orb + Sheer Force boosted attacks. The speed is absolutely a real killer for Rampardos though, so B is too much for Rampardos; a rise to C+ or B- seems fair, depending on how Crustle-/Xatu-heavy the meta is atm.