I'm a fan of chesnaught but your opponent can stop that passive damage be predicting a spiky shelid and switching. as for the leech seed a simple switch into a grass type or anything with magic bounce, magic guard, or by having a safeguard.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
yes obviously there are many ways of stopping it, i'm not saying that it deserves S or A rank, but in the current meta is a nice answer to many powerful threats
Bro you can't use predictability as an argument. Keldeo is S and his only two sets are Specs and Scsrf with the occasional subCM. Pinsir is A+ and runs only SD (tho SubFlail is rly fun js). Something being predictable doesn't matter if that mon can still do that predictable job reliably and consistently, which is something Chesnaught definitely does. The ability to not give a flying fuck about sand, scarf Lando, Ferrothorn, Rain (except Kingdra), and just about any other physical attacker is definitely an important niche to have and Chesnaughts ranking should reflect that.
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Why would you Hammer Arm if you are checking Azumarill? Chesnaught is very good at checking/countering common threats but you shouldn't spread it too thin either. I'm one of the bigger fans of Chesnaught but it's not going to fight off Tyranitar, Excadrill and Azumarill in a row. AV Azu is very similar, it can take out one or two troublesome special attackers a match, but if you repeatedly overwhelm it with strong special attacks it will fall as well.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
ok guys i think we should bring this thread back in the serious discussion. honestly i agree that clefable is awesome because of its versatility being able to perform many roles with 2 viable abilities and many supporting moves, however i believe that in a meta that is becoming more and more offensive and aggressive it's hard for fable to act at his best because it is constantly threatened by all the hard hitters of the tier, of course it can check some top tier pokemon like latios and greninja but it's difficult to check them all at once (specially defensive fable can take care of ninja but gets wrecked by latios' psyshock) so imo it doesn't deserve S rank. about keldeo, i agree that it is worth being dropped because it hits really hard with choice specs but now there are many things that can switch on it and force it out.
The most specially defensive Clefable goes is 96 Ev's in Spdef with a Calm nature, leaving 160 EV's for defense. This is enough to avoid the 2HKO from Latios's Life Orb Psyshock about 95% of the time, and is enough to soak up Greninja's Hydro Pump as well. I could see it going to S rank, because even though your team is most likely to have strong steel coverage/steel type, after those things are gone, Clefable only needs one or two Calm Minds set up to wreck havoc, and possibly sweep. Not only dos it have versatility in terms of the sets it can run, but it can be slapped on nearly every team, serving as a possible win condition for stall teams, or glue for offensive teams that struggle with Greninja and Conk, which a lot do.
Lando-T is not a good example for predictability lol, there are quite a few underrated sets that you gotta watch out for like double dance (nearly impossible to revenge kill, strong, ez to set up), subSD (sets up w/ease against mew and gliscor) and RP+3 attacks (carries Knock off so lati@s and gengar aren't checks; earth plate and max attack 2hko's max defense clefable 100% of the time). Even on the choice scarf itself, you have to scout superpower or knock off, and even the occasional explosion could really fuck you up. I understand the point that you're making about predictability in general (and I agree with it, altho it is an important factor) but lando-t is not a good example.
I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but Chesnaught in solid B Rank sounds like a good choice. Its amazing typing with ability allows it to wall some powerful threats like Excadrill, Kabutops, non-Sludge Wave Gengar, Dragonite, Terrakion, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Crawdaunt, and Bisharp. Most notably, its signature Spiky Shield has amazing utility coming in on Outrage'd Dragon-types and giving them chip, Leech Seed, and possibly confusion damage which can wear things down really quickly. It can set up its own Spikes and creates an incredible and common core with SpD Heatran (one of the best reasons to move it up) and it can completely cripple things coming in with Hammer Arm because it lowers its Speed meaning things like Garchomp can finally outpace Latias allowing it to kill it or do massive damage to a switch in. Wearing down things is really useful for offensive teams because it lets Excadrill beat Garchomp, Mega Houndoom beat Azumarill, etc. Add to the fact it has an amazing typing and it is really easy to see why Chesnaught is an underrated and good threat. Move it to B
Next and finally, I really feel like Cloyster should go from unranked ranked. Here me out before commenting. Yes, it has trouble sweeping in this priority invested metagame, but that doesn't change the fact it can actually sweep. I saw it a couple of the times in the upper ladder (after the Mega Mawile ban for a reason), and it really is a fun and deadly sweeper to build around. For one, most priority users can't do crap to Cloyster. The only notable one that will do severe damage is Mega Scizor because Band is uncommon nowadays. Mega Scizor generally run more defensively oriented spreads and even with an offensive one, it really can't scratch a 180 Base Defense. Breloom ends up being some suicide Spore user that only lives at full health to check BirdSPAM, but other than that, it Spores, does ridiculous damage with Bullet Seed + Rock Tomb and dies. Conkeldurr sucks in this metagame and no one uses it, and it resists Aqua Jet + Ice Shard, Sucker Punch and Brave Bird are the only real ones especially since ESpeed + Quick Attack is not going to kill of even a weakened Cloyster unless Dragonite is Band or you see Lucario. It is still a problem that hurts it viability, but take a comparison versus last generation. One common misunderstanding is that all people who use Cloyster use it incorrectly. It just leads off, sets up Shell Smash and if you do "standard lead with special attacker and make Cloyster noob forfeit lolololol" or you are clumsy and let it Smash and its not OHKOing your whole team. Cloyster became viable after Aegislash left the tier, even more viable when Mega Mawile left where people see Cloyster in the upper ladder. Cloyster is actually a hard 'mon to beat when it sets up really tbh. Not much can outpace Cloyster outside of Sand Rush Excadrill or Swift Swim users. Walling it is your best bet and what walls Cloyster for offensive teams? Keldeo and that takes over half and can be flinched by King's Rock hax sets. Azumarill loses with Rock Blast with prior damage and other bulky waters sit in the same boat outside of Slowbro (trust me Suicune is really really easy to wear down). Ferrothorn takes a crap load and other things lose to Razor Shell. Thundurus-I is a pain in the butt, but it can't switch in outside of Shell Smash, but if I see Thundurus-I, I never set up until it is gone with repeated Pursuit + Stealth Rock support. Finally, Cloyster is a huge threat to stall teams. Please take a look at common stall and find a group of 'mons that aren't 2HKOed. Exactly and non of these mon can do anything bar phaze it or status it bar Clefable (which will result in a 2HKO). Yes, I am making Cloyster look good with these pros, but it has various flaws of being predictable, being easy to pick off with priority by doing sack-setup-damage-priority combo and it can't set up on most 'mons because of its bad special defense along with taking possible massive damage setting up, but if you give it a right amount of support, I honestly feel like it is a better sweeper than Haxorus and Volcarona (please half the common meta can wall this lol), so I propose it should be placed in C- rank despite its bad reputation and that is saying something. I am not overselling it and I have seen some good players use it in the past. It is viable now.
Next and finally, I really feel like Cloyster should go from unranked ranked. Here me out before commenting. Yes, it has trouble sweeping in this priority invested metagame, but that doesn't change the fact it can actually sweep. I saw it a couple of the times in the upper ladder (after the Mega Mawile ban for a reason), and it really is a fun and deadly sweeper to build around. For one, most priority users can't do crap to Cloyster. The only notable one that will do severe damage is Mega Scizor because Band is uncommon nowadays. Mega Scizor generally run more defensively oriented spreads and even with an offensive one, it really can't scratch a 180 Base Defense. Breloom ends up being some suicide Spore user that only lives at full health to check BirdSPAM, but other than that, it Spores, does ridiculous damage with Bullet Seed + Rock Tomb and dies. Conkeldurr sucks in this metagame and no one uses it, and it resists Aqua Jet + Ice Shard, Sucker Punch and Brave Bird are the only real ones especially since ESpeed + Quick Attack is not going to kill of even a weakened Cloyster unless Dragonite is Band or you see Lucario. It is still a problem that hurts it viability, but take a comparison versus last generation. One common misunderstanding is that all people who use Cloyster use it incorrectly. It just leads off, sets up Shell Smash and if you do "standard lead with special attacker and make Cloyster noob forfeit lolololol" or you are clumsy and let it Smash and its not OHKOing your whole team. Cloyster became viable after Aegislash left the tier, even more viable when Mega Mawile left where people see Cloyster in the upper ladder. Cloyster is actually a hard 'mon to beat when it sets up really tbh. Not much can outpace Cloyster outside of Sand Rush Excadrill or Swift Swim users. Walling it is your best bet and what walls Cloyster for offensive teams? Keldeo and that takes over half and can be flinched by King's Rock hax sets. Azumarill loses with Rock Blast with prior damage and other bulky waters sit in the same boat outside of Slowbro (trust me Suicune is really really easy to wear down). Ferrothorn takes a crap load and other things lose to Razor Shell. Thundurus-I is a pain in the butt, but it can't switch in outside of Shell Smash, but if I see Thundurus-I, I never set up until it is gone with repeated Pursuit + Stealth Rock support. Finally, Cloyster is a huge threat to stall teams. Please take a look at common stall and find a group of 'mons that aren't 2HKOed. Exactly and non of these mon can do anything bar phaze it or status it bar Clefable (which will result in a 2HKO). Yes, I am making Cloyster look good with these pros, but it has various flaws of being predictable, being easy to pick off with priority by doing sack-setup-damage-priority combo and it can't set up on most 'mons because of its bad special defense along with taking possible massive damage setting up, but if you give it a right amount of support, I honestly feel like it is a better sweeper than Haxorus and Volcarona (please half the common meta can wall this lol), so I propose it should be placed in C- rank despite its bad reputation and that is saying something. I am not overselling it and I have seen some good players use it in the past. It is viable now.
I agree with Vertex that Cloyster should be ranked. I don't feel like this has been examined much since the Aegislash and Mawile bans. The best set is probably Smash, Icicle Spear, Rock Blast, Ice Shard... Ice Shard dodges Thundy-I paras and you're faster than Talonflame Brave Bird. Razor Shell really only hits rachi. Cloyster was always good with Magnezone since BW so whatever.
Really though its so easy to Smash on stall teams or like most any unboosted Physical Attacker in OU. Cloyster is good enough to be ranked.
Really though its so easy to Smash on stall teams or like most any unboosted Physical Attacker in OU. Cloyster is good enough to be ranked.
None of that stuff is worth it though in my opinion. Realistically you want to kill Duoblade before you ever try smashing. +2 Rock Blast does a ton to Heatran. More realistically people have like Mega Pinsir or something and want to hit your -1 def with Quick Attack then you kill them with Ice Shard after Stealth Rocks.
![GH[O]ST](/forums/media/data/avatars/m/69/69331.jpg?1413405016){kind=avatar}
Clefable is not "far from S-Rank" by any means. Most of the people that argue that Clef isn't S Rank at least acknowledge there is a legitimate argument for it. You would get much less support for, say, Mega Heracross for S Rank.
Also, many things can wreak havoc after a Calm Mind or two, but the ease at which it gets a CM up and how difficult it is take down after one makes it by far one of the best CMers in the tier.
S-Rank, to me, means sitting atop the entire metagame with a couple, or so, others. There are plenty of others that I think should be in S-Rank before Clefable
To be honest, I'd put Mega Heracross at a higher rank than Clefable.
Calm Mind Clefable:
- Manhandled by Scizor
- Problems against Bisharp
- Walled by S.Def Mew (quite common)
- Most importantly, can't Kill hard physical hitters that like to switch into it while it CMs. Then gets outsped and 2HKOed
among others
At this point of the metagame S rank/A+ rank falls under a very fine boundary that's only crossed on either side during actual battle itself. Sitting at the top of the metagame can be somewhat of a stretch when the roles that each fill vary and at times will be more or less useful depending on practical use. S rank to me is basically some of the best options you can consider and or are metagame defining in regards to team building constraint and viability. I just wanted to say that cause "sitting atop the entire metagame" as you put it to me is not really a very good detailed criteria for what defines S.
I don't believe Clefable should be S rank. Clefable has some wicked versatility until you have to factor in that it has to choose what it beats while one set will be more consistent in handling certain threats than others. If I choose Twave over Flamethrower I can cripple Latios a bit better but I lose to Excadrill and Bisharp. If I decide to go Unaware CM I am now to prone to status. If I decided to go Magic Coat to deter stall breakers and status I am now losing to most if not all steel types due to a loss in coverage moves. You see where I'm going with this? Taunt Tran, LO Gengar, Bisharp, Stallbreaker Mew, Physically Strong hitters such as Char-X, Banded Azumarill, Diggersby, Talonflame, there is actually a decent amount of stuff Clefable has to go up against to actually function during battle and it can't, unlike the S rank mons, get to work right away. I'm not saying that it's inconsistent I'm just saying when the argument is that "If this and this is out of the way then it is unstoppable", it falls apart because that's pointing out it needs a significant enough support to justify its current ranking and the A+ ranked mons are known to be fantastic but need certain elements out of the picture to do their job well.
M-Heracross is the same thing with Clefable in a more broader sense. It's an awesome wallbreaker but it needs birdspam and harder hitting fast opponents out of the way first. Has no form of recovery so basically it's got sort of a shitty matchup against a well played offense team and the only way you can mitigate that is through Sub which now forces you to either forgo Swords Dance or run the Sub/SD set which basically has only two coverage moves (CC + Rock Blast) that imo provide only mediocre coverage when we consider what it can handle and how easy it is for the Sub to be broken in the tier now a days.
Again the line of S/A+ rank can be kind of blurred at times and is pretty subjective so I think where both of them stand in viability right now is perfectly fine.
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That's why Clefable runs Flamethrower, to catch Scizor on the switch. Even Bisharp isn't a safe switch; if I remember correctly, it takes a chunk of damage from both Moonblast and Flamethrower. Correct me if I'm wrong there, because I'm on my phone.
Anyway, I nominate Blissey for unranked. I will give my reasoning later on, cuz I lack the time to do so atm.
We went down the Blissey rabbit hole about a week ago and it accomplished nothing. I'd rather not do that again. I hope I don't come off as mean, it's just that the Blissey discussion gets crappy very fast.
And that's why you might not want to Switch Scizor directly in.
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 212-252 (53.8 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unboosted Fire Blast OHKOs in return. Even if you switch Sczior in safely you still need to wear it down.
That's still a huge chunk of damage.
If youre gonna use SD Mega Scizor I'd hope you can generate more offensive momentum than that.
If you want something safer the stall breaker Mew can come in on a +1 Clefable and wall any variant basically
Fire Blast OHKO's the most defensive of Mega Scizor after SR, don't see how this is manhandling considering Scizor can't threaten unless it's boosted...
Bisharp can't switch in, but yeah Bisharp is a check and you wouldn't set up calm mind with that thing around.
Mew does wall with Taunt/Knock Off, I'll give you that.
It's not easy to just come in and 2HKO Clef after two calm minds. There are few Pokemon with that power, and most that have it are taken out by Moonblast at 2+ after a little prior damage.
You also have to consider Clefable's sets outside of Calm Mind. You can have a SR or Wish set with EV's to check Greninja (sometimes when I'm on a new account I just use Cosmic Power Clefabe to 6-0 lower ladder teams). It's just a super useful defensive Pokemon for nearly any team, a glue is the definition of this Pokemon. It's definitely a better candidate for S rank than, say, Heracross, seeing as Heracross is only really useful against stall/bulkier balance while Clefable pulls its weight vs. pretty much any team.
I'm a decent player, I've used a lot of teams and a lot of pokemon, but can never get my head round Clefable.
I really don't get it. I've never seen it do all that well and it certainly doesn't seem consistent to me. It has mediocre power and decent bulk, so stat wise isn't anything great. It does have fantastic typing, 2 great abilities and a plethora of options, but none of them scream A/S rank to me. I don't know, I've never seen it do work and have never liked it when using it.
So basically, I'm asking what all the fuss is about. Maybe I've been using the wrong set/team for it, but I just don't get it. It never does all that well. Maybe I need advice on how to use it?
For me Clefable is nowhere near S rank, but I'm not a top player - I like to think I'm above average, mind - so my opinion is based on personal experience and not a lot more.
I really don't get it. I've never seen it do all that well and it certainly doesn't seem consistent to me. It has mediocre power and decent bulk, so stat wise isn't anything great. It does have fantastic typing, 2 great abilities and a plethora of options, but none of them scream A/S rank to me. I don't know, I've never seen it do work and have never liked it when using it.
So basically, I'm asking what all the fuss is about. Maybe I've been using the wrong set/team for it, but I just don't get it. It never does all that well. Maybe I need advice on how to use it?
For me Clefable is nowhere near S rank, but I'm not a top player - I like to think I'm above average, mind - so my opinion is based on personal experience and not a lot more.
I don't understand why you mention these Steel-types, sure they do a good job, but Icicle Spear 2HKOes Magnezone and Skarmory as it is, so they're not safe switch ins after a smash. They can come in on the smash, sure, but I wouldn't smash when I know that a Pokemon like Skarmory would come in, tank a hit, and Whirlwind me away. However, I do see the reasoning behind Hydro Pump, it has a chance to OHKO Skarmory after Stealth Rock, but other than that everything else is 2HKOes by it, at least what you mentioned. The only exception to this is Doublade, which walls it comfortably when Cloyster's not running Hydro Pump. Basically, I see a few pros and cons for both, but I don't feel like bulky Steel-types is an argument for it. I wouldn't set up a smash if they have a Doublade, at least not until it was horribly weakened or something.
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