Other ORAS Mega Speculation Thread (NO talk about potential bans NOR Aegislash)

[Hiddenfreezer]

I don't get how Mega Salamence isn't broke. It has 120 BASE SPEED - Scarf Starmie can't outspeed it ffs. It has more power if you consider Double Edge vs. Outrage. And it is much, MUCH bulkier on the Defense. I mean...

Beedrill looks fantastic, frail...however fantastic. Adaptability x-scissor and poison jab is a great combo, along knock off and maybe sd. The only hump I really see him struggling to get over is he going to have to get over is the initial speed boost from mega evolving. Aside from that he sounds awesome.

Just want to further emphasize how important Uturn on Beedrill is: Uturn >>>>> Xscissor. I guess you mean Xscissor as Beedrill best bug move, but you can't dismiss Uturn on something as frail and fast as it. Especially, ESPECIALLY with the Adaptility boost.

 

[Wargreymon]

Beedrill looks fantastic, frail...however fantastic. Adaptability x-scissor and poison jab is a great combo, along knock off and maybe sd. The only hump I really see him struggling to get over is he going to have to get over is the initial speed boost from mega evolving. Aside from that he sounds awesome.

Beedrill has no hope of pulling off a SD… ever. Also bug and poison is far from a great combo, it's actually a pretty bad STAB combo. X-scissor is strong but the main reason to use mega drill is u-turn. It can be an annoying piece of shit with a fast and powerful u-turn, just like a real life bee!
Terrible jokes aside though, I really don't see the point of using mega beedrill if you aren't using U-turn. Beedrill needs to be able to get the fuck out there all the time because virtually every pokemon in the tier can destroy it.

 

[Daken]

u-turn knock off can be a niche for beedrill, but i don't think it worths a mega slot.

 

[Flarowak]

Beedrill has no hope of pulling off a SD… ever. Also bug and poison is far from a great combo, it's actually a pretty bad STAB combo. X-scissor is strong but the main reason to use mega drill is u-turn. It can be an annoying piece of shit with a fast and powerful u-turn, just like a real life bee!
Terrible jokes aside though, I really don't see the point of using mega beedrill if you aren't using U-turn. Beedrill needs to be able to get the fuck out there all the time because virtually every pokemon in the tier can destroy it.

I didnt know it could turn lol.in that case yeah it's way better for that. I dont see how bug poison is that bad though. The only thing it cant hit for at least neutral is steel, or is it more the fact they dont hit a lot for SE damage?

 

[Flarowak]

I don't get how Mega Salamence isn't broke. It has 120 BASE SPEED - Scarf Starmie can't outspeed it ffs. It has more power if you consider Double Edge vs. Outrage. And it is much, MUCH bulkier on the Defense. I mean...


Just want to further emphasize how important Uturn on Beedrill is: Uturn >>>>> Xscissor. I guess you mean Xscissor as Beedrill best bug move, but you can't dismiss Uturn on something as frail and fast as it. Especially, ESPECIALLY with the Adaptility boost.

I had no idea he learned it. I agree it's way better lol.

 

[Siggu]

I didnt know it could turn lol.in that case yeah it's way better for that. I dont see how bug poison is that bad though. The only thing it cant hit for at least neutral is steel, or is it more the fact they dont hit a lot for SE damage?

The problem with Bug/Poison is not the resists they have in common but the number of resists each type has. Sure, as you said, Steel is the only type that takes less than neutral from both, but there are a lot of dual typings that resist both Bug and Poison, and most of them exist in OU.

 

[Daken]

252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Fake Out vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 48-57 (13.6 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 286-343 (81.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 adamant Weavile Fake out Plus Ice shard = safe revenge kill on Mmence :D
(with SR is always safe revenge).

 

[Thirteen Rabbits]

Since we know the new mega stats, has anyone thought of making a temp tier in pokemon showdown so we can see first hand how they affect the meta? If that's even possible.

 

[Force Majeure]

u-turn knock off can be a niche for beedrill, but i don't think it worths a mega slot.

I think you've hit on something; competition for the Mega slot will become much more fierce with these additions. Up until this point, "it uses a mega slot" has been a subtly disfavored argument when ranking Megas in the viability thread. This will not be the case once these megas drop.

 

[Flarowak]

The problem with Bug/Poison is not the resists they have in common but the number of resists each type has. Sure, as you said, Steel is the only type that takes less than neutral from both, but there are a lot of dual typings that resist both Bug and Poison, and most of them exist in OU.

I didn't take dual typings into consideration, even though it should be a no brainer to do so I suppose lol. That's a fair point thanks.

 

[Karxrida]

252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Fake Out vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 48-57 (13.6 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 286-343 (81.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 adamant Weavile Fake out Plus Ice shard = safe revenge kill on Mmence :D
(with SR is always safe revenge).

Having to run Adamant on a Mon that needs its speed to check several targets it needs to deal with on top of running a shitty move like Fake Out is a pretty bad idea and shows how powerful Mega Mence will be.

Plus it can just switch out after Fake Out. It's not like Weavile is hard to deal with anyway.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Would anyone mind compiling a list of new moves old mons get? Ik a couple (Crunch Gyarados, Gunk Shot Greninja, Knock Off Diggersby, etc), but I'm sure I missed a few.

edit: also is gunk shot beedrill confirmed?

 

[Daken]

Having to run Adamant on a Mon that needs its speed to check several targets it needs to deal with on top of running a shitty move like Fake Out is a pretty bad idea and shows how powerful Mega Mence will be.

Plus it can just switch out after Fake Out. It's not like Weavile is hard to deal with anyway.

All my posts till now were showing how Mence isn't that broke, Jolly Weavile is just another option, and yes, u can switch out but u'll loose momentum and risk another Sr layer on field.
Mence is a long discussion IMO, u can check all of my other posts if u want (or suggest a broken build to discuss).
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 44-52 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(i had miscalculated, puted more then 130 base def on Mence, jolly weavile can pretty much deals with it).

 

[Force Majeure]

Would anyone mind compiling a list of new moves old mons get? Ik a couple (Crunch Gyarados, Gunk Shot Greninja, Knock Off Diggersby, etc), but I'm sure I missed a few.

edit: also is gunk shot beedrill confirmed?

I'd suggest that we split discussion of the old megas' new moves and the new move tutors into a different thread; this one's crowded enough as-is.

 

[WaveBomber]

edit: also is gunk shot beedrill confirmed?

(ctrl+f Beedrill) Nope, Drill Run and Knock Off are its only notable tutor moves.

And I agree with ChristovaOnIce, another thread in which to discuss new/tutor moves in general seems appropriate.

 

[Bizdis]

It's worth noting that Mega Slowbro can take 2 uninvested Dracos from Mega Mence, and obviously soaks up any physical hits it can dish out. This means that Slowbro should be able to invest in enough sp def to take 2 dracos from whatever mix mence spread people choose to use, and can then hit it back with an ice beam, which is a guaranteed OHKO. Calcs below:
0 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 356-420 (107.5 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm not saying it's balanced, because this will probably be the most broken thing to hit OU after Mega Gengar, but it has one switch-in. ONE. Obviously, if rocks are up, even this thing can lose against it LOL. So basically, what I'm saying is you can either run a pokemon with Ice Shard or run Mega Slowbro with a specific spread to not auto-lose against this.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Bizdis, calculate how much Aeriate Hyper Voice does (yes, Salamence gets Hyper Voice. Cream your pants right now.)

 

[Karxrida]

All my posts till now were showing how Mence isn't that broke, Jolly Weavile is just another option, and yes, u can switch out but u'll loose momentum and risk another Sr layer on field.
Mence is a long discussion IMO, u can check all of my other posts if u want (or suggest a broken build to discuss).
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 44-52 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(i had miscalculated, puted more then 130 base def on Mence, jolly weavile can pretty much deals with it).

Guys Kyogre isn't broken cause Gastrodon counters it.

In all seriousness, that fact that it can survive LO Weavile's Ice Shard without any investment should tell you something, and Mega Salamence can totally invest in bulk because like Zard X it's fast enough to do so with a DD under its belt. Having to run 2 priority attacks (one exclusively for Mence) cuts into your coverage and makes Weavile much easier to deal with since any reasonably smart opponent will switch out after getting hit by Fake Out.

 

[Albacore]

wait Diggersby actually gets Knock Off lol. That's definitely gonna see some use on MagneSir, or should I say, MagneMence teams, though I'm not sure where it'll be able to fit that move. It also gets Gunk Shot which I guess hits Chesnaught? idk. Also gets Superpower which doesn't seem useful either.

Chesnaught gets Drain Punch which is for the most part an improvement over Hammer Arm, so that's nice.

Greninja gets Low Kick which, with 252 Attack EVs and a Band equipped, can actually 2HKO Chansey. That's right, Greninja has no full, 100% counters as of ORAS, besides SpD Cresselia. Yikes.

That's all I could find in terms of semi-releavant stuff, but there may be more. (oh and this isn't relevant to OU, but Aegi gets Magnet Rise lol, I honestly wonder whether it would've been used in OU)

 

[Camara]

Is this the Flying generation? It's all about Aerilated Returns and Double Edges, Brave Birds, Hurricanes everywhere :o

And trollfreak I really hope not giving Pidgeot ANY new move (no new level up move, no new TM learning set, no new egg move, no new tutor move) is just a demo feature. Not a single one!!!!

 

[Karxrida]

Bizdis, calculate how much Aeriate Hyper Voice does (yes, Salamence gets Hyper Voice. Cream your pants right now.)

0 SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So much for Mega Bro being a counter.

 

[Bizdis]

Bizdis, calculate how much Aeriate Hyper Voice does (yes, Salamence gets Hyper Voice. Cream your pants right now.)

0 SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO

EDIT: Actually, wait!!!
0 SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Slowbro: 145-172 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The spreads may get ridiculous, but it may be possible to counter this until somebody figures out a spread that beats my spread. Now I'll just wait a few seconds.

 

[Daken]

I'm not saying it's balanced, because this will probably be the most broken thing to hit OU after Mega Gengar, but it has one switch-in. ONE. Obviously, if rocks are up, even this thing can lose against it LOL. So basically, what I'm saying is you can either run a pokemon with Ice Shard or run Mega Slowbro with a specific spread to not auto-lose against this.

252 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron: 124-147 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Aggron Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 188-224 (56.7 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Aggron: 69-81 (20 - 23.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Aggron vs mence.

ANY options u choose make Mence vulnerable to another set of counters.

double + claw + dance + hypervoice/meteor/fireblast

152+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 174-205 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 152+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 261-307 (63.6 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 152+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 348-409 (84.8 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 148-175 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Audino: 93-110 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 33.6% chance to 4HKO

0 SpA Audino Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-280 (71.2 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

so either u die from 2 ice beams and deal some damage with return or double edges and dies from collateral damage + ice beam (not considering SR)
Ddance in front of audino is not a safe option too cause he has Encore/toxic/protect Wich mence is extremely fragile. MAudino can safely switch in in many situations and is immune to one of Mence stabs.

Audino Vs mence


252 Atk Lopunny Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 55-66 (16.6 - 19.9%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 272-320 (82.1 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mlopunny vs mence


The problem is (and i've repeated myself many times) is that people are comparing Mmence the same way they tested Mmawile/Mlucario and this cannot be applied, any set (as i said) can only cover/recover/mix/bulk 1 at a time, not all of them.

Mences that survives Mslowbro can be easily countered by Cofagrigus/Ferrothorn/Wow walls
Mences that survives Maudino can be easily revenged by ice shard/fake out/outspeed ice damage
Mences don't surivve swift swin kingdra ice beam in any situation/ Mswampert ice punch(in some situatons)
u cannot easily switch in and out cause the MMence typing don't help u with that (Sr weakness, toxic, Wow, TW weakness, Ddance dependance).

So no, Salamance DONT have only one check and can be dealt with no specific counter (revenge kills/toxic/stalls/hazards)

IMO declaring Salamence broken before testing is a little too rush.

 

[Daken]

252 SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slowbro: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
well, i prefer not to invest Ev's in Slowbro huge defende, if u do it's up to u bro D;
O.o

 

[RandomBro]

Mega salamence is good but a pure physical set is walled by mega aggron and it gets 2hkod by avalanche even with a prior intimidate.
Mixed sets are walled by cresselia and it gets 2hkod by Ice beam.