Gen 6 Omega Ruby / Alpha Sapphire Mega Evo discussion

[Jibaku]

I'm going to throw in here the possibility of specially based Primal Groudon. It can throw your checks and counters for a loop

Groudon @ Primal Item
Mild Nature
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Polish / Lava Plume / Toxic / Stone Edge / Rock Tomb / Overheat / whatever

Alright so its fire STAB hurts almost as much as ZardY's so its dmg is pretty legit.

Fire Blast
Vs 252/0 Cresselia: (262 - 310 HP) Damage: 59.01% - 69.82%

Vs 252/0 Lugia: (226 - 267 HP) Damage: 54.33% - 64.18%

Vs 252/0 Arceus (Neutral dmg): (282 - 333 HP) Damage: 63.51% - 75%

Vs 252/0 Groudon (Regular Groudon): (360 - 424 HP) Damage: 89.11% - 104.95% | 31.25% Chance to OHKO

Vs 248/0 Yveltal (Phys Def Yveltal): (336 - 396 HP) Damage: 73.85% - 87.03%

Vs 252/0 Landorus-T: 100% damage

Multiply the above damages by ~1.18 to get Overheat damage (hint: it solidly OHKOes regular Groudon)

Dragon Pulse
Vs 0/0- Giratina-O: (252 - 298 HP) Damage: 57.14% - 67.57%
Vs 128/0 Giratina-O: (226 - 268 HP) Damage: 47.78% - 56.66%

Vs 0/0 Mega Rayquaza: (226 - 268 HP) Damage: 64.39% - 76.35%
Vs 0/0 Rayquaza: (248 - 292 HP) Damage: 70.66% - 83.19%

Even without investment, Precipice Blades still does as much damage as a STABed EQ with 475 Attack, enough to leave massive dents on most things, especially Dialga and Kyogre.

 

[GRB1]

Hmm...

Just going to leave a quick note about Primal Groudon being a Primal Kyogre check. If I understand the new weather system correctly, then PGroudon can come in on PKyogre and tank a water-type attack ("tank" = take no damage), likely forcing PKyogre to switch out. However, and unless I misunderstand the weather system, can't PKyogre revenge-kill any PDon? I'm not saying PDon isn't a good switch-in, simply that PDon should be used in conjunction with another PKyogre switch-in.

 

[.TM87]

Oh shit. We just dodged a bullet there.

Xerneas doesn't get Earth Power, Phew...

But Yveltal gets Knock Off... D:
Let that sink in.

 

[shrang]

I wonder how much physically defensive Flygon would take from Groudon's attacks (everything bar Dragon Claw because it would get wrecked)

 

[Jibaku]

252/252+/0 Flygon vs:

0 SAtk Overheat: (180 - 212 HP) Damage: 49.45% - 58.24%
0 SAtk Fire Blast: (153 - 180 HP) Damage: 42.03% - 49.45%
252+ SAtk Fire Blast: (198 - 234 HP) Damage: 54.4% - 64.29%
252+ SAtk Overheat: (234 - 276 HP) Damage: 64.29% - 75.82%
252+ SAtk Dragon Pulse: (272 - 322 HP) Damage: 74.73% - 88.46%
252+ Atk Dragon Claw: (204 - 242 HP) Damage: 56.04% - 66.48%
0+ Atk Dragon Tail: (134 - 158 HP) Damage: 36.81% - 43.41%
252+ Atk Fire Punch: (107 - 126 HP) Damage: 29.4% - 34.62%

 

[ApplepieFTW]

In addition to the above: +4 252+ Atk Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Flygon: 190-224 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Prophet]

The Red and Blue orb are apparently now hold items, which are used to transform Groudon and Kyogre to their Primal states upon being sent out in battle.

Though for some reason, the Jade Orb is still a key item and there doesn't seem to be any sign of a Mega Stone for Rayquaza just yet.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Mega Slowbro is going to be legit with that defense stat i mean it survives a zek LO bolt strike LOL

 

[Ash Borer]

man I am a slowpoke but I just realized how much of an upgrade groudon's new tpying is. Immune to burns, loses grass and ice weak, and gains fairy, fire, steel resists and fire STAB.

wtf

 

[Millky95]

Sort of knew this but from the leaks:

Cloud Nine move usage is not restricted by Heavy Weather, Mold Breaker however is still restricted
Switching/fainting a Pokemon with a heavy weather ability will cause it to cease.
Switching in a Heavy Weather Pokemon will override the current Heavy Weather.
Switching in a Heavy Weather will override existing Heavy Weather (last in speed bracket).
Golduck Confirmed Ubers: 252+ SpA Golduck Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Too bad not a lot gets Cloud Nine.

 

[Direwolf12]

Mega Slowbro is going to be legit with that defense stat i mean it survives a zek LO bolt strike LOL

What? Calcs please! Please tell me though that it's max Def investment otherwise... O_o if ZEKROM can't OHKO that thing...

 

[Fireburn]

man I am a slowpoke but I just realized how much of an upgrade groudon's new tpying is. Immune to burns, loses grass and ice weak, and gains fairy, fire, steel resists and fire STAB.

wtf

Also with its ability granting it virtual immunity to Water-type attacks, Primal Groudon's only weakness is, ironically, Ground. :]

So this post has actual content, it's been confirmed that Primal Reversion is triggered by the Red/Blue orbs, which are now hold items. This makes Primal Groudon a little bit tamer at least, now that we know it can't hold Life Orb.

 

[Asmodean]

Knock off on yveltal!!
Maybe we'll start seeing scarf physical yveltal with knock off and foul play for pdon.

 

[Furai]

donner is fkin amazing

 

[FlowingCloud]

Also with its ability granting it virtual immunity to Water-type attacks, Primal Groudon's only weakness is, ironically, Ground. :]

So this post has actual content, it's been confirmed that Primal Reversion is triggered by the Red/Blue orbs, which are now hold items. This makes Primal Groudon a little bit tamer at least, now that we know it can't hold Life Orb.

will Blue/Red Orb boosts the power of water/fire moves such as 20%? xD

 

[Pyritie]

Though for some reason, the Jade Orb is still a key item and there doesn't seem to be any sign of a Mega Stone for Rayquaza just yet.

There's a whole ton of unused key items from past generations in the demo. It doesn't mean anything. XY and BWB2W2 were the same.

The jade orb was also an HGSS thing, not a RSE thing

 

[alexwolf]

• 252+ Atk Mega Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Slowbro: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Mega Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Slowbro: 129-153 (32.9 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Mega Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Mega Slowbro in Sun: 145-171 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock Mega Slowbro is 2HKOed
  
• 0 SpA Mega Slowbro Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Groudon: 119-140 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So, Mega Slowbro seems as a pretty good counter to Mega Groudon, as long as Mega Groudon doesn't have Swords Dance. Mega Slowbro can Toxic Mega Groudon and slowly KO it, 3HKO it with Grass Knot, or boost with Calm Mind and 2HKO it at +6 with Psyshock. Mega Slowbro can also check Mega Rayquaza, as long as it lacks Draco Meteor:

• 252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Slowbro: 130-154 (32.9 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Thunder Wave is Slowbro's best bet against Mega Rayquaza, as Mega Rayquaza is only 2x weak to Ice.

 

[Jibaku]

252+ SpA Mega Groudon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Mega Slowbro in Sun: 145-171 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I dont think that's the right calc

[08:16] <%JibaNOTHERE> !dmg reshiram 31 252+ | Slowbro 31 252/16 | Fire Blast | -sun
[08:16] <CDXCIV> Reshiram's Fire Blast vs Slowbro (195 - 229 HP) Damage: 49.49% - 58.12%

(Reshiram in place of Groudon because the bot doesnt have primal groudon yet but Resh has the same SAtk. Regular Slowbro and Mega Slowbro share the same special bulk).

Alternatively there's Solarbeam although really only hitting mega slowbro isnt exactly useful.

 

[alexwolf]

I dont think that's the right calc

[08:16] <%JibaNOTHERE> !dmg reshiram 31 252+ | Slowbro 31 252/16 | Fire Blast | -sun
[08:16] <CDXCIV> Reshiram's Fire Blast vs Slowbro (195 - 229 HP) Damage: 49.49% - 58.12%

(Reshiram in place of Groudon because the bot doesnt have primal groudon yet but Resh has the same SAtk. Regular Slowbro and Mega Slowbro share the same special bulk).

Alternatively there's Solarbeam although really only hitting mega slowbro isnt exactly useful.

Yeah you are right. Don't know what i did wrong, i changed natures, removed the Fire-typing, and still didn't get the number i did before. Whatever, sucks that Mega Slowbro can't wall specially based Groudon, but at least it can wall physical Groudon with Fire Blast.

 

[Hack]

Yeah you are right. Don't know what i did wrong, i changed natures, removed the Fire-typing, and still didn't get the number i did before. Whatever, sucks that Mega Slowbro can't wall specially based Groudon, but at least it can wall physical Groudon with Fire Blast.

Not exactly. SD is and will be a standard on primal don. There is no denying a physically bulky mon like slowbro will inevitably wall a support oriented set from a physically attacking based tank but a burn and paralysis immune mon with both speed and atk boosting moves cannot be overlooked as "that support mon." Groudon easily gets past any mon that isn't immune/resistant to ground and even then it can pack coverage or raw power to just muscle through those checks too. Yes, SR will probably be a good set- but when using niche mons like that it's important that they actually fulfill their niche properly and Slowbro (among other examples I have discussed with friends) isn't.

 

[alexwolf]

Not exactly. SD is and will be a standard on primal don. There is no denying a physically bulky mon like slowbro will inevitably wall a support oriented set from a physically attacking based tank but a burn and paralysis immune mon with both speed and atk boosting moves cannot be overlooked as "that support mon." Groudon easily gets past any mon that isn't immune/resistant to ground and even then it can pack coverage or raw power to just muscle through those checks too. Yes, SR will probably be a good set- but when using niche mons like that it's important that they actually fulfill their niche properly and Slowbro (among other examples I have discussed with friends) isn't.

I already mentioned that Mega Slowbro can't wall SD Mega Groudon.

 

[Hack]

I already mentioned that Mega Slowbro can't wall SD Mega Groudon.

I know, you just seemed to act as if SD was going to be some rarity and validated a niche mon that doesn't even fulfill its niche well. Sorry if I interpreted that part the wrong way, I just happened to look at the wording of your post and I thought it was pretty misleading as you were acutally implying that Slowbro was a full fledged counter to Groudon, with the exception that Groudon could possibly use SD.

Regarding Ray vs Mence which no one has seemed to discuss yet (the hype train seems to be about Ray):

In reality these mons have pretty distinct niches but I'm liking mence more. It has speed to outpace Ray in 1v1 scenarios (Ray speed ties aren't going to be uncommon, I'm afraid), Refresh, Roost and great physical bulk+intimidate utility before mega, allowing it to set up fairly nicely. Its flying STAB (double edge) is actually stronger than rays by about 10.4 %*. However, Rays much stronger coverage, less weaknesses and access to priority cannot be dismissed so it's going to be interesting to see what people prefer.


*very quick calc. solved for mean damage vs an abomasnow in damage calc. did a simple ratio between the means which was ≈ 1.1039

 

[alexwolf]

I know, you just seemed to act as if SD was going to be some rarity and validated a niche mon that doesn't even fulfill its niche well. Sorry if I interpreted that part the wrong way, I just happened to look at your post and I thought it looked misleading as you were acutally implying that Slowbro was a full fledged counter to Groudon, with the exception that Groudon could possibly use SD.

I thought that Mega Slowbro would be a solid check to Mega Groudon because it could wall any set bar SD ones, but i did the Fire Blast calc wrong. You are right in saying that my post implied that Mega Slowbro would be a good Mega Groudon check because of the wrong calc, but with that proved false, Mega Slowbro is nothing but a shaky check to Mega Groudon overall.

 

[PISTOLERO]

The main thing I actually see as a result of Mega Rayquaza is that we're gonna have to start running max Speed Wisp Support Arceus again, due to Mega Rayquaza having base 115 Speed. and Arceus having 120. No more 252 / 160 / 96+ spreads tbh, which indirectly means that everything else can break through Support Arceus more easily.

As for Rayquaza, I think you can run mixed very nicely, with Dragon's Ascent, Draco Meteor / Outrage, Waterfall / Surf, Fire Blast / EQ / V-Create. Surf wipes out Primal Groudon and also hits Landorus-Therian about as hard as Draco Meteor (~10% less) as well as not missing. Extremespeed could be nice for revenge killing, but it's less of an issue as Rayquaza has more Speed.

 

[Nayrz]

My main worry about these Primal Reversions is that we need concrete info on whether or not using Primal Kyogre or Primal Groudon actually counts as a mega slot on your team. If they don't, and we can use Mega Mewtwos, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence (or even more terrifying, Mega Rayquaza) alongside them, we are in for one hell of a ride.