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Gen 6 Omega Ruby / Alpha Sapphire Mega Evo discussion
- Thread starter Theorymon
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nah, Arceus will forever be a very good mon no matter how much the meta shifts. It's stupid versatile and is actually half decent at everything it could possibly try to do, which is saying a lot considering the competition it faces.
Also, don't think for a second that just because xern has a solid counter now that it's going to just curl up and disappear, it will still be one of Uber's most threatening sweepers. Ditto for Kyogre.
I agree on mega bro. What some people are forgetting in the hype-train is that ubers is considerably more special oriented then OU, making bro's life considerably harder.
No seriously, look at the current ubers viability rankings and the current OU viability rankings and compare the number of physical to special mons in A- and up.
I don't believe in viaibity rankings.
fair enough, that doesn't change the fact that ubers is considerably more special based compared to OU though.
Dilwar
Hi
Groudon is now a Pokemon that checks all three of Xerneas, Ekiller, and Kyogre - 3 of the current biggest threats in Ubers. To top it off, it has sheer offensive presence, and can also take on a support (bulky) role like it already does today, but with even less weaknesses and a bloody water immunity.
What a mon. Definitely going to S rank.
What a mon. Definitely going to S rank.
Dilwar
Hi
While the loss of Regen sucks for Mega Slowbro, Shell Armor can be surprisingly helpful (though obviously still inferior). A +70 to its Defense stat is insane.
Calc with its 180 base defense: 252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This thing is pretty much immune to physical hits. And with Shell Armor blocking crits, a Crocune Mega Slowbro will be terrifying. Something like Scald, Psyshock, Calm Mind, Slack Off.
It's also a NICE Mega Blaze counter
Calc with its 180 base defense: 252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 332-392 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This thing is pretty much immune to physical hits. And with Shell Armor blocking crits, a Crocune Mega Slowbro will be terrifying. Something like Scald, Psyshock, Calm Mind, Slack Off.
It's also a NICE Mega Blaze counter
Solarbeam Groudon =;=
Anyways I want to point out that while Groudon as a whole can check all 3 of X/Kyogre/EK, Primal Groudon can only really check the first 2 because EKiller can do quite a lot of damage with SDed EQ (may even OHKO w/ LO at +2, depending on your spread). That being said however Groudon seems like it will be an incredibly versatile mon and can mix/match its sets pretty easily.
Not sold on Mega Slowbro tbh especially when Toxic screws it over and it doesn't do a whole lot outside of walling...Salamence and Blaziken? i guess Rayquaza too to an extent but if it has SD or Draco, Slowbro is pretty doomed. I think even Ho-Oh can cut through Mega Slowbro with the help of Sacred Fire burn.
Anyways I want to point out that while Groudon as a whole can check all 3 of X/Kyogre/EK, Primal Groudon can only really check the first 2 because EKiller can do quite a lot of damage with SDed EQ (may even OHKO w/ LO at +2, depending on your spread). That being said however Groudon seems like it will be an incredibly versatile mon and can mix/match its sets pretty easily.
Not sold on Mega Slowbro tbh especially when Toxic screws it over and it doesn't do a whole lot outside of walling...Salamence and Blaziken? i guess Rayquaza too to an extent but if it has SD or Draco, Slowbro is pretty doomed. I think even Ho-Oh can cut through Mega Slowbro with the help of Sacred Fire burn.
What about MDiancie e MMetagross, their stats are quite nice too.
252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def M-Slowbro: 133-156 (33.7 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA M-Slowbro Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 150-176 (36.1 - 42.4%) -- 92% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Slowbro will lose in the end cause Brave Bird has more PP, burn damage forces you to Slack Off too often. LO + Brave Bird recoil + Scald means Slowbro can 2HKO Ho-Oh back :P Slowbro is still not a good switch in :(
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 113-134 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 168-199 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
M-Salamence can force out Ho-Oh, but you risk a burn and become useless.
0 Atk Salamence Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 432-512 (104 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 216-255 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus in Sun: 282-333 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus in Sun: 282-333 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 354-419 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Primal Groudon can't check EKiller :(
Mega Metagross outruns and OHKOes Xerneas. Meteor Mash + Tough Claws still make Yveltal cry. Grass Knot deals good damage to Kyogre. Hammer Arm owns Arceus and Dialga but reduced Speed :( Zen Headbutt wrecks Palkia and Ho-Oh for easy 2HKOes.
252+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA M-Slowbro Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 150-176 (36.1 - 42.4%) -- 92% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Slowbro will lose in the end cause Brave Bird has more PP, burn damage forces you to Slack Off too often. LO + Brave Bird recoil + Scald means Slowbro can 2HKO Ho-Oh back :P Slowbro is still not a good switch in :(
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 113-134 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 168-199 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
M-Salamence can force out Ho-Oh, but you risk a burn and become useless.
0 Atk Salamence Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 432-512 (104 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 216-255 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus in Sun: 282-333 (74 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus in Sun: 282-333 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 354-419 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Primal Groudon can't check EKiller :(
Mega Metagross outruns and OHKOes Xerneas. Meteor Mash + Tough Claws still make Yveltal cry. Grass Knot deals good damage to Kyogre. Hammer Arm owns Arceus and Dialga but reduced Speed :( Zen Headbutt wrecks Palkia and Ho-Oh for easy 2HKOes.
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I think Mega Latias could be interesting because of the higher physical Bulk over Soul Dew Latias when this thing even comes out.
So many megas but you can only have one...It is just way to difficult to decide what to run.
So many megas but you can only have one...It is just way to difficult to decide what to run.
Anyway I feel that PrimalDonner will surpass even Xern usage...
nice to see you trickroom!
Slowbro can probably Toxic Ho-oh and at the very least limit its staying power. But yeah, not exactly a good mon overall, regen loss sucks. If only Metagross had 120+ speed to actually check Ekiller I'd be pretty sold. Resisting flying is top notch but I am unsure how well it checks Mence/Ray anyway. Sucker Punch Yveltal almost OHKOs Metagross so I wouldn't say it's too problematic for Yveltal. Did Yveltal get knock off btw?
Diancie looked interesting but ultimately came out too slow. It also needs 120+ base speed to check Ekiller and 1v1 Mence and Ray more effectively. Having less base speed than Arceus formes invalidates its niche as an SR setter that prevents defog via boom, that also doubles up as a Ho-oh/Yveltal/Ekiller check, anti hazards mon and status sponge for offensive teams. Really such a shame cause I don't see Ekiller going back to Adamant any time soon (if anything it has more reason to stay fast with these new mons).
Hey Hack :D
I mean Yveltal won't be getting free switch ins on Mega Metagross like it can on Slowbro :P Sucker Punch will own Metagross sadly and you underspeed Mega Salamence. Ice Punch is a must to OHKO it. Metagross will no longer be outclassed though by Aegislash. Tough Claws Meteor Mash lets it hurt Arceus a lot more now. Not sure on Knock Off Yveltal but it is true according to some posts here.
Mega Beedril outruns Mewtwo forms and has STAB Poison to kill fairies. The main issue is you have to waste a turn before Mega Evolving, as Beedril sucks and isn't fast at all. If only one mega is allowed per team, Mega Latias doesn't look awesome or worth using. There are just many viable Megas to use in Ubers now.
Mega Altaria can check Yveltal and has Roost but lacks real bulk. Poor Steelix got an offensive ability lol, probably just another Aggron, not suited for Ubers :( At least it can Heavy slam things like Mewtwo or Salamence for major damage, 740kg M-Steelix. STAB EQ pwns Dialga, Blaziken, Zekrom, Lucario and Tyranitar.
Mega Sharpedo has some use of checking Mewtwo with Strong Jaws Crunch and Arceus-Ghost. Looks pretty bad overall.
I mean Yveltal won't be getting free switch ins on Mega Metagross like it can on Slowbro :P Sucker Punch will own Metagross sadly and you underspeed Mega Salamence. Ice Punch is a must to OHKO it. Metagross will no longer be outclassed though by Aegislash. Tough Claws Meteor Mash lets it hurt Arceus a lot more now. Not sure on Knock Off Yveltal but it is true according to some posts here.
Mega Beedril outruns Mewtwo forms and has STAB Poison to kill fairies. The main issue is you have to waste a turn before Mega Evolving, as Beedril sucks and isn't fast at all. If only one mega is allowed per team, Mega Latias doesn't look awesome or worth using. There are just many viable Megas to use in Ubers now.
Mega Altaria can check Yveltal and has Roost but lacks real bulk. Poor Steelix got an offensive ability lol, probably just another Aggron, not suited for Ubers :( At least it can Heavy slam things like Mewtwo or Salamence for major damage, 740kg M-Steelix. STAB EQ pwns Dialga, Blaziken, Zekrom, Lucario and Tyranitar.
Mega Sharpedo has some use of checking Mewtwo with Strong Jaws Crunch and Arceus-Ghost. Looks pretty bad overall.
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http://pastebin.com/Y439ecxq
So according to this, you can have a Primal and a mega evolution on the same team as well as having both Primals on the same team. There doesn't seem to be any restriction on them at all as far as teambuilding goes.
So according to this, you can have a Primal and a mega evolution on the same team as well as having both Primals on the same team. There doesn't seem to be any restriction on them at all as far as teambuilding goes.
So, primal reversion triggers when you bring Kyogre/Groudon in to a battle (unlike mega evo which you trigger manually). If this is true, Rayquaza can potentially stay in against Kyogre, get rid off rain when he mega evolves and set up a DD or just attack him. Yeah, ice beam will hurt but he can take one at full health.
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza: 276-326 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza: 276-326 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If this stays true for the real ORAS games then we could be going back to RBY era Ubers where everyone uses the Primal Pokemon (in the same way everyone used Mewtwo). After all considering their raw mixed attacking power and super weather abilities who wouldn't use them when the opportunity cost is zero? And if most people do use the Primal Pokemon then we might all have to use Mega Ray who can force them out by changing the weather (and he a first class Mega in his own right).
Uber ORAS could be very different from almost every Uber meta-game we have ever played. Things are going to get very interesting!
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what are some mons that will be able to take hits from mixed primal groudon and kyogre and cripple them with status? Giratina-A along with a few others can do so.
i see groudon and kyogres primal forms being run vastly different from their non-primal counterparts. if they go mixed, they should run 252hp/ 252 attack/ 4 special attack for groudon and 252hp/ 252 special attack/ 4 attack with a brave and quiet nature respectively.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 176-208 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Giratina: 235-277 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
the amount of pokemon that can cripple them increases if groudon runs pure physical and kyogre runs purely special. mega aggron can take one hit and cripple purely physical or support sets with toxic.
lugia can take on even mixed sets and cripple primal groudon with toxic.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 159-189 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 92-109 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Sun: 86-102 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
purely specially based Primal kyogre would still have its usual checks.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Palkia in Rain: 40-47 (10.4 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO
4 SpA Palkia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Rain: 68-81 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 100-118 (26 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Goodra Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
arceus grass is still a good check to any mixed primal kyogre set due to its base 120 defenses.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Grass: 176-208 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
blissey walls purely specially offensive sets and wears them down with toxic.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 220-261 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
i see groudon and kyogres primal forms being run vastly different from their non-primal counterparts. if they go mixed, they should run 252hp/ 252 attack/ 4 special attack for groudon and 252hp/ 252 special attack/ 4 attack with a brave and quiet nature respectively.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 176-208 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- 68.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Giratina: 235-277 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
the amount of pokemon that can cripple them increases if groudon runs pure physical and kyogre runs purely special. mega aggron can take one hit and cripple purely physical or support sets with toxic.
lugia can take on even mixed sets and cripple primal groudon with toxic.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 159-189 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 92-109 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Primal Groudon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Sun: 86-102 (20.7 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
purely specially based Primal kyogre would still have its usual checks.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Palkia in Rain: 40-47 (10.4 - 12.2%) -- possible 9HKO
4 SpA Palkia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra in Rain: 68-81 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 100-118 (26 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Goodra Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
arceus grass is still a good check to any mixed primal kyogre set due to its base 120 defenses.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Grass: 176-208 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
blissey walls purely specially offensive sets and wears them down with toxic.
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 220-261 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
primal kyoggy says hi!
r u that good to predict it right off the bat tho, go ahead and take this 120 base power 504 atk Precipice Blades yumE tastE.
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I'm guessing trickroom came back because he heard Mega Gyarados now has Crunch.
Also the possibility of having a Primal and a Mega on the same team is nuts. Physical offense spam teams with Primal Groudon/Mega Ray or Mence look to be pretty scary...
Being able to use both Primals is actually more helpful for Kyogre, as now there is no opportunity cost of not being able to use Primal Groudon. :P
Also @ Hack, Yveltal is confirmed to get Knock Off from move tutors. It also gets Tailwind and Heat Wave.
Also the possibility of having a Primal and a Mega on the same team is nuts. Physical offense spam teams with Primal Groudon/Mega Ray or Mence look to be pretty scary...
Being able to use both Primals is actually more helpful for Kyogre, as now there is no opportunity cost of not being able to use Primal Groudon. :P
Also @ Hack, Yveltal is confirmed to get Knock Off from move tutors. It also gets Tailwind and Heat Wave.
Ray or Mence?
Plz, it's gonna be LO ray and MegaMence
Shame you can only do this once. The moment you mega evolve you lose access to Speed Boost for future checking. So he's a pretty all in Pokemon. Use Destiny Bond?
Just use Gyro Ball 9.9
I don't think it will be that extreme. A better comparison would be DPP Ubers where Kyogre and Groudon reigned thanks to the strength of their weather (and there was no Arceus to dethrone them). It's different from RBY Mewtwo because that mon was clearly far more powerful than anything else in the game (and it was the only real Uber so...)
ANYWAYS
Let's cool off the Groudon hype train for a moment and move on to Kyogre. I want to talk about Primal Kyogre, specifically, and what it can contribute to the metagame. On paper, and likely on practice, it got the short end of the stick. But it got a bit of relief from the discovery that there is no limit to Primal usage. I want to focus specifically on what it has over regular Kyogre.
Topics for discussion:
- Uses for permanent, selfish rain? Perhaps a CM set? Maybe you don't want rain interfering with some of your other mons? Does it make Kyogre + Ho-Oh/Heatran a better pairing?
- Immunity to WoW and Sacred Fire - big deals?
- The significance of removing Desolate Land and Delta Stream? Is the threat of their physical STABs too much for Kyogre to handle?
- Making use of that 150 base Attack? 2HKOing Dialga with EQ?
Probably not the most interesting discussion questions so I need people to help me out here.
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