Can we guys fucking stop talking about Blissey? She has no reason to go unranked. Thank you.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I used to pretty much have your exact stance on Clefable, until I made a good team with it. First of all, its stats are mediocre, but they're just high enough to let Clefable to what it wants to do, which is to tank certain hits to let it set up Calm Mind, Wish, SR, be a nuisance with Knock Off, and absorb status. If you give it the right role for your team and play it well, it will nearly always fulfill its job against nearly every team. It needs practically no support, which is a huge plus, and if you do decide to give it support in the form of pretty much any steel-type teammate, it does even better.
Honestly the only thing I have against this thing going S rank is that Azumarill is A+, and I consider it better.
Clefable gives the opponents almost no room for a misplay. If you let it get to +2, you're toast. And getting to +2 involves one small misstep at best.
It pairs so well with so many other pokes too. Use it with moonlight and Char-Y and you have an easy switch in and several turns of super recovery to set up with. Pair it with Tar/Drill and you have a switch in to their fighting checks that takes nothing from sand damage. Pair it with almost anything dangerous, frankly, and you lead your opponents into a deadly guessing game.
This is what "glue" is. And this is why it is so horrible to face. I switch Clefable in to something -- one of many things -- that can essentially do nothing to it. What do you do next? Am I going to set up, hit Moonblast, hit Flamethrower or double-switch? Guess wrong and you're screwed.
And with Magic Guard, I can come in as often as I want without worrying about hazards or random toxic or burns.
For me, Clefable is most definitely one of the toughest things out there. It's an implacable, derpy tank of doom.
It pairs so well with so many other pokes too. Use it with moonlight and Char-Y and you have an easy switch in and several turns of super recovery to set up with. Pair it with Tar/Drill and you have a switch in to their fighting checks that takes nothing from sand damage. Pair it with almost anything dangerous, frankly, and you lead your opponents into a deadly guessing game.
This is what "glue" is. And this is why it is so horrible to face. I switch Clefable in to something -- one of many things -- that can essentially do nothing to it. What do you do next? Am I going to set up, hit Moonblast, hit Flamethrower or double-switch? Guess wrong and you're screwed.
And with Magic Guard, I can come in as often as I want without worrying about hazards or random toxic or burns.
For me, Clefable is most definitely one of the toughest things out there. It's an implacable, derpy tank of doom.
After posting my post, I tried it out again and started to see what the fuss was about. I'm not sure it's S/A+ Rank, but I understand what people are saying now. I used a simple CM set and it did set up with insane ease, though is generally stopped quite easily. It's good though.
As a guy who used clefable a lot (and got swept by it a lot) I can say its a fantastic mon, not sure its an S rank, but easy A+. Once you get the chance to set up CM(which is really not hard) you can sweep unprepared teams. In adition to this its got two fantastic abilities and is able to support its teammates with wish and heal bell(my favorite heal bell user). All of this utilized with a fantastic typing neither defensively or offensively.
Personally when I build a team I always try to prepare for it. But the thing that holding it back from being S rank is common mons such as gengar, scizor, venusaur and the fact that even when invested 95/73 bulk is a beat lacking in this physically oriented metagame. Not talking about the fact the if it didn't set up it will have problems with special hits.
Personally when I build a team I always try to prepare for it. But the thing that holding it back from being S rank is common mons such as gengar, scizor, venusaur and the fact that even when invested 95/73 bulk is a beat lacking in this physically oriented metagame. Not talking about the fact the if it didn't set up it will have problems with special hits.
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Didn't say its not, in my post I actually agree with it being great mon, but not good enough to be S rank in my opinion.
I think A+ fits it just right.
Clefable will continue to sit there as a pokemon that can dance on the edge of the S Rank line but never cross it because those mediocre base stats hold it back as the one fatal flaw in its armor.
It has typing and recovery options, 3 of them in fact with an ability that prevents indirect damage, but its mediocre base stats means it can't take very hard hits.
It has a base of 60 Speed so its not outspeeding anything really cept Conkeldurr and you can't really invest in speed because its defenses need it more.
Its attack stats are meh at best for OU but investing in SpA leaves its defenses down and you need those defenses when you're searching for turns to Boosts.
And its Physical is low meaning it can't take advantage of the physical side of its movepool.
Clefable has practically everything else going for it. Just those Base Stats.
It has typing and recovery options, 3 of them in fact with an ability that prevents indirect damage, but its mediocre base stats means it can't take very hard hits.
It has a base of 60 Speed so its not outspeeding anything really cept Conkeldurr and you can't really invest in speed because its defenses need it more.
Its attack stats are meh at best for OU but investing in SpA leaves its defenses down and you need those defenses when you're searching for turns to Boosts.
And its Physical is low meaning it can't take advantage of the physical side of its movepool.
Clefable has practically everything else going for it. Just those Base Stats.
Technically speaking, there are reasons to both rank and not rank Blissey, but I agree we should not be talking about it right now, as been by the crappy discussion that we had a few weeks ago.
Blissey is better in stall vs stall, and it does not get screwed by Knock Off Landorus-I. Chansey is better in every other way (besides no Leftovers) but agreeing that Blissey should be ranked for that niche against Landorus has helped it find its place on some of my balanced builds.
the azumaril could come in after you used it. EXE. a t-tar
Time to explain why Excadrill should drop to A. Excadrill needs sand to be an A+ threat, there is no denying this. Its Scarf or any non choiced Mold Breaker sets are not in any way deserving of A+. And in order to provide sand to Excadrill you need to use Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar, or Hippowdon, all Pokemon that reside in A- or B+ ranks. I was ok with Excadrill being one rank higher than Tyranitar when Tyranitar was in A because unlike rain teams, which can use multiple rain abusers, Excadrill is THE reason to use Smooth Rock Tyranitar, and also, Excadrill could be used even without sand support with a Scarf set or any other Mold Breaker set. And because Excadrill under sand is a monster. However, with Tyranitar being so easy to exploit in this metagame, things become harder for Excadrill too. Tyranitar is an invite to Pokemon such as Keldeo, Mega Heracross, Terrakion, CM Clefable, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Landorus, and more Pokemon to come in, not to mention that Tyranitar + Excadrill share Fighting, Water, and Ground weaknesses, which heavily restricts teambuilding. Also, the metagame has adapted to sand offense better, so it's harder for Excadrill to sweep.
![GH[O]ST](/forums/media/data/avatars/m/69/69331.jpg?1413405016){kind=avatar}
Scizor's bane is and always has been Fire Blast.
But think about this like you would Tyranitar - Scizor usually can't OHKO TTar with Bullet Punch while TTar can OHKO with Fire Blast. We still have always considered Scizor a way to handle Tyranitar, though.
The game is more about simple isolated calculations. OHKO and 2HKO calculations are nice and handy, but those are not what make situations.
The fact remains that Clefable usually cannot maintain enough good offensive and defensive momentum to truly threaten any good offensive team or even balanced team (this applies to Scizor's and Bisharp's situations) like a real S-Ranked Pokemon would be able to.
Also, why is it that in all your situations, Clefable somehow is getting to +2 unhindered, while the opponent's Poekmon are assumed to have prior damage. Any setup sweeper with 2 turns to setup and a weakened enemy team will wreak havoc lol
Anyone who keeps Geninja in on a healthy Clefable, or allows the themselves to be swept by Cosmic Power Clefable, deserves to lose.
-Most Clefable run fire coverage which can most likely OHKO while Scizor can't do the same back. Clefable wins 1v1, while Scizor beats Tyranitar 1v1. pretty much all offensive Clefable run fire coverage, only some bulky Tyranitar do, it's not the best comparison.
- There is more to the game than math, never said this wasn't the case, but Clefable is unique in that it doesn't take any residual damage, meaning it's easy to maintain it at 100% health, meaning you gotta do at least 56% to 2HKO, which is not easy. When it comes to Clefable, calcs are important because any other Pokemon is most likely to have taken SR damage throughout the game.
- The momentum thing depends pretty much on how you play it. You can either switch it in on attacks to set up SR/Wish or keep it healthy for the CM sweep.
- Clefable gets to 2+ pretty easily because after just one CM, the thing is pretty damn bulky. Unlike most other set up Pokes, it invests solely in defense and has a much easier time setting up than frailer things.
Finally, just want to say that I don't necessarily believe it should be S rank. I think it's a good candidate, but while Azumarill is in A+ rank I don't see how Clef can rise above it.
Can someone provide me some sort of reasoning as to why Noivern is ranked at C-? Like outside of the obvious traits perhaps cause I really don't see how you would consider this equally viable to the likes of something like Slowking for example.
Maybe some discussion on Exploud as well. It was really good on TR teams back when Aegislash was around cause of scrappy but you have plenty of other wallbreakers to consider before you go and pick something like Exploud. Is it C- for being a specially offensive wallbreaker in TR or am I missing something that somehow makes it still relevant in todays metagame?
Maybe some discussion on Exploud as well. It was really good on TR teams back when Aegislash was around cause of scrappy but you have plenty of other wallbreakers to consider before you go and pick something like Exploud. Is it C- for being a specially offensive wallbreaker in TR or am I missing something that somehow makes it still relevant in todays metagame?
The things it has going for it:
- Three really powerful moves, all with BP at or over 110, and two get STAB
- Good speed tier (122 iirc)
- Good support movepool. Flamethrower gives good coverage, fast Taunt is nice, and it can also use a fast U-Turn
You know, I'm kind of with you on Exploud; I'm not sure what exactly it still has going for it enough to warrant a ranking. Honestly, it reminds me a lot of Nidoking atm, as both are underwhelming 'mons with a bit of a bite to them that allows them to hit a few things pretty hard, but still lack any real power and have no real bulk. And the thing about that is that we don't have Nidoking ranked, so I'm not sure Exploud still deserves a spot. Unless I'm missing something too? But from what I can see, Exploud is an underwhelming wallbreaker that has a mediocre speed tier, less than optimal bulk, okay coverage, and one good STAB move that still isn't all that great. Even though it has a niche against a few substitute users, (especially ghosts that forget about scrappy) it doesn't really seem worth a teamslot on a serious OU team to me. So unless someone knows a good reason to keep Exploud ranked, I'm going to go ahead and nominate Exploud for Unranked.
Exploud's main niche is on trick room teams. There, it has a big difference over Nidoking, in that it has one super spammable move (well, lower speed too, but that just means it's less viable on other teams). That means the opponent can't stall trick room turns by constantly switching to things that resist the move you were going to use, because there simply isn't much that wants to take Exploud's specs boomburst even if they know it's coming.
Yeah, I guess TR is enough of a niche. I haven't run into a good TR team in a good long while, but that could just be me. Of course, that's still a slim niche either way, so I'm not sure Exploud warrants a C- rank if TR is the only thing it's good for anymore. So how about Exploud for D? Fair?
I've used Exploud on successful TR teams before. On offensive teams, there really isn't much that can prevent Exploud from OHKOing 2-3 things easily. It can even get past some of it's would be bulky counters like Heatran or Ferrothorn. It's also useful because the only thing switching in completely safely is Chansey, and you can just double switch into your physical TR sweeper with little prediction. Exploud definitely isn't as useful on TR as Mega Hera or Crawdaunt, but it can survive any priority besides Breloom's LO Mach Punch and OHKO's so many things it's crazy. I personally think it's fine in C-, but I wouldn't mind it dropping to D if people think C- is too good.
Noivern sits at a speed tier higher than Greninja, which is usually fucking the majority of offensive teams, and it does this without needing to Mega Evolve first like Manetric or something like that. For Hyper Offensive teams that lack room for another Mega because another one fits better than MMane does, it's a fit, being one of the only things on offence able to check it that isn't a Mega Pokemon. It also hits rather hard and has Infiltrator, which is a massive fuck you to sub. With that speed and how hard it can hit, it can be a massive problem for offensive teams, or could run taunt and switcheroo (one that bypasses the sub!) to fuck stall up. I think it's worthy of C- and should remain there.
Greetings, XY OUers! I’m BKC and I come from the land of a much better metagame LOL DPP OU. Recently I was coerced into playing your monstrosity of a tier for the ladder tour, and after my experiences, I would like to propose that Cobalion be moved up to S rank.
Unfortunately, that’s not realistic, but he’s more than worthy of C+ rank! First of all, it is very hard to find truly safe Bisharp switchins on offense; Keldeo, the most common one, resists its STABs and has good enough defenses, but it isn’t the most resilient of mons and takes massive damage from +2 LO Sucker Punch which puts it in range for something else to pick it off (most commonly offensive SD Mega Scizor as seen on cbb’s team that’s everywhere, but this can also be something like DD Mega Gyarados or Tyranitar that Keldeo needs to stay healthy to check). Cobalion not only shrugs off Bisharp with ease by virtue of its typing and massive defense, it actually turns it into momentum via Volt Switch! This is a huge part of what makes Cobalion good, the ability to threaten a unique variety of offensive by its typing, bulk and Speed, and being able to turn it into momentum for its team.
Cobalion’s Steel typing, which grants it STAB on Iron Head, alongside its Keldeo/Terrakion speed stat makes it a surprisingly dangerous mon to face. I would say the ability to outspeed and KO the dangerous Mega Gardevoir was the most valuable thing Cobal offered when I used it, especially since I could actually grab momentum from it. I found myself threatening a lot of offensive teams, which I wasn’t really expecting since I just had Cobal to counter Bisharp and check fairies (having something to hit Clefable with SE physical STAB is always good considering how dangerous the CMer is), but they actually don’t take to it all that kindly. Scarf Landorus-T, the best & most common switchin, doesn’t heal and gets worn down by switching into SR + Iron Head a few times. Latios is the next best thing but Volt Switch to something that forces it out (or even better, Pursuits) and you’re good!
Cobalion also makes great use of Taunt. When you’re trying to VolTurn (which Cobal orchestrates very well) around, hazards help a lot (I used Spikes as well on my team but just SR is fine), especially against defensive teams (whose Fighting weaks – Heatran, Ferrothorn, Chansey – are forced out by the threat of Cobalion’s Close Combat) and since steel horse isn’t that strong, a lot of bulky mons (Skarmory, Mew, Mandibuzz) try to use it as an opportunity to Defog or heal up. Taunt prevents any of that from happening. Taunt can even be used to prevent the common Landorus-T switchin from setting up SR.
As a last note, McMeghan supports the use of Cobalion and even built a team that had 5/6 same mons as mine! Feel free to make this change now.
Thanks for reading. I’m off for a nap in poops boobs’ bed.
Unfortunately, that’s not realistic, but he’s more than worthy of C+ rank! First of all, it is very hard to find truly safe Bisharp switchins on offense; Keldeo, the most common one, resists its STABs and has good enough defenses, but it isn’t the most resilient of mons and takes massive damage from +2 LO Sucker Punch which puts it in range for something else to pick it off (most commonly offensive SD Mega Scizor as seen on cbb’s team that’s everywhere, but this can also be something like DD Mega Gyarados or Tyranitar that Keldeo needs to stay healthy to check). Cobalion not only shrugs off Bisharp with ease by virtue of its typing and massive defense, it actually turns it into momentum via Volt Switch! This is a huge part of what makes Cobalion good, the ability to threaten a unique variety of offensive by its typing, bulk and Speed, and being able to turn it into momentum for its team.
Cobalion’s Steel typing, which grants it STAB on Iron Head, alongside its Keldeo/Terrakion speed stat makes it a surprisingly dangerous mon to face. I would say the ability to outspeed and KO the dangerous Mega Gardevoir was the most valuable thing Cobal offered when I used it, especially since I could actually grab momentum from it. I found myself threatening a lot of offensive teams, which I wasn’t really expecting since I just had Cobal to counter Bisharp and check fairies (having something to hit Clefable with SE physical STAB is always good considering how dangerous the CMer is), but they actually don’t take to it all that kindly. Scarf Landorus-T, the best & most common switchin, doesn’t heal and gets worn down by switching into SR + Iron Head a few times. Latios is the next best thing but Volt Switch to something that forces it out (or even better, Pursuits) and you’re good!
Cobalion also makes great use of Taunt. When you’re trying to VolTurn (which Cobal orchestrates very well) around, hazards help a lot (I used Spikes as well on my team but just SR is fine), especially against defensive teams (whose Fighting weaks – Heatran, Ferrothorn, Chansey – are forced out by the threat of Cobalion’s Close Combat) and since steel horse isn’t that strong, a lot of bulky mons (Skarmory, Mew, Mandibuzz) try to use it as an opportunity to Defog or heal up. Taunt prevents any of that from happening. Taunt can even be used to prevent the common Landorus-T switchin from setting up SR.
As a last note, McMeghan supports the use of Cobalion and even built a team that had 5/6 same mons as mine! Feel free to make this change now.
Thanks for reading. I’m off for a nap in poops boobs’ bed.
Update time:
Excadrill: A+ ---> A
Jirachi: B+ ---> A-
Crawdaunt: B- ---> B
Chesnaught: B- ---> B
Amoonguss: B+ ---> B
Cobalion: D ---> C
Kyurem-B: B+ ---> A-
Infernape: C+ ---> C
Gorebyss: C- ---> D
Hydreigon: C- ---> D
Wobbuffet: Stays in C+
Weavile: Stays in B-
No time to explain, but i hope that you trust the ranking team enough to be ok with those changes. One hint as to why Kyurem-B rose to A- without any discussion taking place: Greninja. Also, i bumped Cobalion to C for now, as you all know i don't like too drastic changes, and it might rise higher if more people post about it. Feel free to ask about any of those changes though, and me and the rest of the team will try to give an answer as soon as possible. There is nothing that is really in need for discussion, so just enjoy the serenity before ORAS are released.
Excadrill: A+ ---> A
Jirachi: B+ ---> A-
Crawdaunt: B- ---> B
Chesnaught: B- ---> B
Amoonguss: B+ ---> B
Cobalion: D ---> C
Kyurem-B: B+ ---> A-
Infernape: C+ ---> C
Gorebyss: C- ---> D
Hydreigon: C- ---> D
Wobbuffet: Stays in C+
Weavile: Stays in B-
No time to explain, but i hope that you trust the ranking team enough to be ok with those changes. One hint as to why Kyurem-B rose to A- without any discussion taking place: Greninja. Also, i bumped Cobalion to C for now, as you all know i don't like too drastic changes, and it might rise higher if more people post about it. Feel free to ask about any of those changes though, and me and the rest of the team will try to give an answer as soon as possible. There is nothing that is really in need for discussion, so just enjoy the serenity before ORAS are released.
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
Could someone link me the post of Greaninja's S rank reasoning? If itsn't to post this in here I'm sorry, just curious.
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
Is there a good reason Hydreigon is in D rank (I presume because it's outclassed heavily by Latios), while Slowking is in C- while being outclassed by a slew of bulky Waters and bulky Psychics, and has a mon almost exactly like it in A rank? Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. is kinda the definition of Hydreigon. You're also trying to say Hydreigon is less viable than Haxorus and Noivern, which most people should agree is simply not true. I'd like to see either a ton of C- rank mons drop, or see Hydreigon put back in C-, because atm the drop just makes no sense.
There you go.
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