Gen 6 Omega Ruby / Alpha Sapphire Mega Evo discussion

[trickroom]

Sweep told me that Thunder Wave + 3 Attacks Primal Kyogre will be a decent set. Waterfall flinch with paralysis owns CM Arceus too. No Latias for now, but Waterfall 3HKOes it. Support Arceus can't burn Primal Kyogre, that is useful. No more Sacred Fire burns but Brave Bird 2HKOes Kyogre :(

252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga in Rain: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- 24.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Primal Kyogre Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 176-208 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Primal Kyogre Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 208-246 (51.6 - 61%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga in Rain: 186-219 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga in Rain: 204-240 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recover

Kyogre needs major Attack investment to 2HKO Dialga with Earthquake. Origin Pulse + a simple Calm Mind will push that 3HKO into a 2HKO, Earthquake seems sort of useless besides hitting Dialga on the switch in. Kyogre can just setup Calm Mind in Dialga's face. Zekrom doesn't like STAB Origin Pulse at all while Ice Beam wrecks it as well.

Gyro Ball is an advantage for Steelix over Mega Aggron then, OHKOes +2 Xerneas. STAB EQ, sets up Stealth Rock, and no free switch in for Primal Groudon, Kyogre, Dialga, Blaziken and friends. Probably still sucks in Ubers since Aggron was a failure

 

[Vengeance417]

I was hoping for Primal Kyogre to get more speed, but since it didn't... :/

The problems I have with Primal Kyogre are as follows:

- Doesn't hit harder than Specs variants.

- Not faster than Scarf variants.

- No leftovers recovery on bulky support sets.

- Heavy Rain doesn't support its team, meaning Mega Scizor/Ferrothorn begin to cry ;_;

- On paper, Mega Rayquaza is a better switch in to Primal Groudon since Primal Ogre won't want to take a STAB Precipice Blades on the switch, ESPECIALLY when Don set up an SD or a Rock Polish beforehand.

In conclusion, while there is no opportunity cost for RUNNING primals, Primal Kyogre will have that opportunity cost since normal Kyogre seems to outclass it in almost every aspect.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Rip Yveltal knock off with 4/6 mons on most teams immune to it

 

[Haunted Diamond]

With all these new offensive threats HO will probably be the dominant playstyle and ditto will have to be on every team ._.

 

[alexwolf]

If Primal Ogre's Orb doesn't say boost the power of water moves by x1.2 or act something like Soul Dew, I think normal Kyogre outclasses it for many sets. This is also really bad for normal Kyogre because P Don can hard counter Scarf / Specs Kyogre with little risk to itself except for these bad boys:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 262-310 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Kyogre Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 176-208 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So maybe Choice Ogre will do okay and it will start running HP Ground as to not be countered by P Don. Unfortunately that massive attack stat that Primal Ogre gets is basically useless since its physical movepool is so lame, EQ beats like Dialga and Zekrom, and thats about it. I don't think Kyogre benefits much from being a mixed attacker either because it can already power through special walls and tanks like Blissey / Ho-Oh, and yet still doesn't have the physical moves to get around Palkia.

252+ Atk Primal Kyogre Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 160-189 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As for a defensive P Ogre set, why rely on Rest alone when you still have the exact same physical bulk as a Kyogre with Leftovers. SpD Kyogre gets a slight buff, but the loss of Leftovers may actually do more harm than good. Primal Ogre can't be burned, but it's typically better to Toxic Ogre than burn it anyways, meanwhile without a boost to defense, Kyogre still looses to Ho-Oh. Even a possible offensive CM set for Primal Kyogre has an easily exploitable physical weakness, as opposed to CM Arc with Wow, which not only has much better physical bulk, but can mitigate it further with WoW spam and reliable recovery. Meanwhile, other offensive CM sets like Mewtwo rely on speed rather than bulk to be effective, and Primal Kyogre's speed sits crowded with everyone else; a speed tier made even worse considering all the speed boosts new megas are getting. I guess P Ogre's sheer might can try and deter physical mons from coming in to check, P Ogre's STAB is still very powerful without Specs. Kyogre also has T Wave which could possibly help it to outpace its threats, but because P Ogre Evos immediately you can't bluff a Scarf and thus will likely cause far fewer switches.

In a meta where you can run 2 Primals + Mega + Arceus, I think Yveltal finally getting Knock Off may not be as great as we anticipated, and it's in competition for moveslots on offensive and defensive sets.

Waterfall + Thunder Wave can check CM Arceus formes, invested Earthquake 2HKOes max HP Mega Groudon (with SR) and Dialga, and of course Waterfall easily 2HKOes Blissey. Not huge pros i guess, as Calm Mind +3 attacks can do all those, aside from checking CM Arceus, and you don't even need Hidden Power Ground, as +1 Ice Beam usually 2HKOes even SpD Mega Groudon after SR.

 

[Inspirited]

I think we will need to wait until we can use it to fully understand what Kyogre can and can't do. It is in a weird state of flux right now and will probably take about a month of playing with it to figure out what is best. I like the twave waterfall idea though.

 

[Fireburn]

I think the permanent rain will mostly benefit Calm Mind sets since it makes Primal Kyogre more difficult to stall:

Kyogre @ Blue Orb
Ability: Drizzle
4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam / Hidden Power Ground
- Thunder / Hidden Power Ground

Offensive Calm Mind Kyogre packs a lot of power after one boost and can blow through a lot of things that might otherwise check it. To give you an example of how strong this is, 252/252+ Ferrothorn and Dialga both get 2HKOed by +1 Origin Pulse. 4/252+ Blissey also gets 2HKOed by +1 Origin Pulse which means there is no way it is Toxic stalling this thing. Unboosted Origin Pulse also does like 62-73% to Zekrom which is pretty hilarious, and anything that doesn't resist Water or isn't Blissey is probably getting OHKOed.

+1 HP Ground also OHKOes 4 HP Primal Groudon after Stealth Rock and 2HKOes any bulkier sets, which makes it a shaky check. You can run it over either Ice Beam or Thunder depending on your team's needs.

The Speed EVs are there mostly for Primal Groudon sets, though you can also take the Speed EVs and jam them into HP to make this into a good bulky attacker. You can do cute things at +1 like survive 2 Grass Knots from Arceus-Grass and have a ~90% chance to live 2 Specs Palkia Thunders with max HP.

Kyogre @ Blue Orb
Ability: Drizzle
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Possible Defensive Calm Mind set. Unfortunately I don't think it will be that great as its huge Primal Groudon bait and not being able to hold Leftovers sucks, which may make regular Kyogre a more appealing choice for this set. This can kind of check RP Primal Groudon as it can take one Precipice Blades decently and KO with Scald, you have to switch in on the Rock Polish though lol.

Primal Kyogre is probably best off running bulky attacking sets, either CM or TWave + 3 Attacks.

 

[Smogoniter]

they also made Kyogre have the weakest move for no reason. poor Kyogre...

Also, I added the abilities!

Obviously because water moves are boosted by kyogre's rain whereas groudon and ray stab are not by their respective weathers

 

[Minority]

Waterfall + Thunder Wave can check CM Arceus formes, invested Earthquake 2HKOes max HP Mega Groudon (with SR) and Dialga, and of course Waterfall easily 2HKOes Blissey. Not huge pros i guess, as Calm Mind +3 attacks can do all those, aside from checking CM Arceus, and you don't even need Hidden Power Ground, as +1 Ice Beam usually 2HKOes even SpD Mega Groudon after SR.

SpD Ogre already beats CM Arc.
HP Ground deals significantly more than Earthquake to Primal Don.
Kyogre can already 2HKO Blissey.

Also trying to beat P Don by using CM on the switch and then Ice Beam is worse than using HP Ground on the switch. If you use CM then Ice Beam you have to win at least one speed tie, and P Don can OHKO P Ogre with Precipice Blades. You can run bulk and eliminate the chance of a OHKO from P Don but now you have no chance of moving before P Don and you loose anyways. If you HP Ground on the switch you can either stay in and try to win the speed tie to beat P Don for free (even if you loose the tie you can still win), or you take the free 60%-70% on P Don and switch to something that can easily finish it, say a Ground immune mon with 91+ base speed.

 

[alexwolf]

SpD Ogre already beats CM Arc.
HP Ground deals significantly more than Earthquake to Primal Don.
Kyogre can already 2HKO Blissey.

Also trying to beat P Don by using CM on the switch and then Ice Beam is worse than using HP Ground on the switch. If you use CM then Ice Beam you have to win at least one speed tie, and P Don can OHKO P Ogre with Precipice Blades. You can run bulk and eliminate the chance of a OHKO from P Don but now you have no chance of moving before P Don and you loose anyways. If you HP Ground on the switch you can either stay in and try to win the speed tie to beat P Don for free (even if you loose the tie you can still win), or you take the free 60%-70% on P Don and switch to something that can easily finish it, say a Ground immune mon with 91+ base speed.

I am talking about Mega Kyogre, not regular Kyogre. Outside of the physical Thunder Wave set, Mega Kyogre can't 2HKO Blissey without CM, Mega Kyogre can't 2HKO Dialga without CM, Mega Kyogre can't check CM Arceus that good without Thunder Wave. But as it's already been established, CM +3 attacks seems superior. HP Ground is still a great option on CM Mega Kyogre of course, i just mentioned that it's not a must.

 

[Gloating]

Regarding Ray vs Mence which no one has seemed to discuss yet (the hype train seems to be about Ray):

In reality these mons have pretty distinct niches but I'm liking mence more. It has speed to outpace Ray in 1v1 scenarios (Ray speed ties aren't going to be uncommon, I'm afraid), Refresh, Roost and great physical bulk+intimidate utility before mega, allowing it to set up fairly nicely. Its flying STAB (double edge) is actually stronger than rays by about 10.4 %*. However, Rays much stronger coverage, less weaknesses and access to priority cannot be dismissed so it's going to be interesting to see what people prefer.

The thing with choosing between Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence is that normal Rayquaza is already pretty good by itself which the same can't be said for normal Salamence. I'm not sure if Rayquaza can use Dragon Ascent (can it?) but it already has insane coverage with V-create and Dragon Claw/Draco Meteor alone so Dragon Ascent is not really needed. There's also the fact that Life Orb Rayquaza hits harder and has other options like Focus Sash. I think more people will use Mega Salamence than Mega Rayquaza imo or at least after the Mega Ray hype dies down.

 

[Vengeance417]

The thing with choosing between Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence is that normal Rayquaza is already pretty good by itself which the same can't be said for normal Salamence. I'm not sure if Rayquaza can use Dragon Ascent (can it?) but it already has insane coverage with V-create and Dragon Claw/Draco Meteor alone so Dragon Ascent is not really needed. There's also the fact that Life Orb Rayquaza hits harder and has other options like Focus Sash. I think more people will use Mega Salamence than Mega Rayquaza imo or at least after the Mega Ray hype dies down.

I'm pretty sure normal Ray Ray can learn Dragon Ascent. It wouldn't make sense for GF to make a move only exclusive to a Pokemon's Mega, and to be honest, I don't even know how that'll work :/

And believe me, Mega Rayquaza's going to be a dominating force in this game. 180 attacking stats, stopping Primal Weather and taking neutral hits from its flying weaknesses will make this thing nearly unstoppable. However, I can still see the return of Salamence + Rayquaza from the DPP days.

 

[alexwolf]

The thing with choosing between Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence is that normal Rayquaza is already pretty good by itself which the same can't be said for normal Salamence. I'm not sure if Rayquaza can use Dragon Ascent (can it?) but it already has insane coverage with V-create and Dragon Claw/Draco Meteor alone so Dragon Ascent is not really needed. There's also the fact that Life Orb Rayquaza hits harder and has other options like Focus Sash. I think more people will use Mega Salamence than Mega Rayquaza imo or at least after the Mega Ray hype dies down.

The great thing about Mega Rayquaza is that it can act as a great check to any Primal Groudon that lacks Dragon Claw, as Stone Edge hits it for neutral damage. And because Mega Groudon is going to be such a dominant force, good checks to it are going to be in huge demand.

 

[Toshhy]

Really excited for the oras uber metagame. Played uber in 4th gen favorite playstyle being sun offense and sun balance. No doubt primal groudon will be hugh this time. Didnt really like 5th gen uber so stopped playing, but my interest has returned.

Building a team with primal groudon first day woo! So something along the line of

Primal Groudon
Yveltal
...
...
Arceus

Physically defenisve Yvetal will be good now. I havent played this gen so i dunno how good it was but in oras it can check groudon and ekiller which primal groudon no longer check.

 

[RandomBro]

is X & Y and OR & AS going to have their own metas, or is everything just going to merge?

 

[Gloating]

is X & Y and OR & AS going to have their own metas, or is everything just going to merge?

I'm pretty sure they will be seperate since they won't patch in the Megas on to X and Y. The main one is going to be OR/AS though since it's going to be the most recent game.

I'm pretty sure normal Ray Ray can learn Dragon Ascent. It wouldn't make sense for GF to make a move only exclusive to a Pokemon's Mega, and to be honest, I don't even know how that'll work :/

And believe me, Mega Rayquaza's going to be a dominating force in this game. 180 attacking stats, stopping Primal Weather and taking neutral hits from its flying weaknesses will make this thing nearly unstoppable. However, I can still see the return of Salamence + Rayquaza from the DPP days.

I'm not saying Mega Rayquaza is useless because it will certainly be amazing but I'm just saying I think people will be more inclined to use Mega Mence over Mega Rayquaza because normal Rayquaza hits harder due to Life Orb and Air Lock is the equivalent to Cloud Nine so it will also block the effects of Primal weather making it not entirely necessary to opt for Mega Rayquaza.

The great thing about Mega Rayquaza is that it can act as a great check to any Primal Groudon that lacks Dragon Claw, as Stone Edge hits it for neutral damage. And because Mega Groudon is going to be such a dominant force, good checks to it are going to be in huge demand.

That's true but normal Rayquaza can also serve as a good check as longest it doesn't come in on a Stone Edge or Dragon Claw.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Ditto copies a P Don and bam! Scarf P Don. Ditto copies a P Ogre and bam! Scarf P Ogre.

Not sure if that's sarcasm. But yeah it's pretty awesome to have a mon that can check all geoxern, e killer, mega ray, megamence and rp pdon for you. Considering HO can't run a check to everything.

 

[SuperWumbology]

I'm pretty sure they will be seperate since they won't patch in the Megas on to X and Y. The main one is going to be OR/AS though since it's going to be the most recent game.



I'm not saying Mega Rayquaza is useless because it will certainly be amazing but I'm just saying I think people will be more inclined to use Mega Mence over Mega Rayquaza because normal Rayquaza hits harder due to Life Orb and Air Lock is the equivalent to Cloud Nine so it will also block the effects of Primal weather making it not entirely necessary to opt for Mega Rayquaza.



That's true but normal Rayquaza can also serve as a good check as longest it doesn't come in on a Stone Edge or Dragon Claw.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO (Factoring in Delta Stream)

I understand that DClaw Primal Donner may be an optional coverage move if most variants are going to be RP or SD sets, but Stone Edge is pretty much going to be on any set, making normal Ray not so great as a check. Keep in mind that the above calcs would be OHKOs and 2HKOS respectively if SR is in play, but we don't know Delta Stream's activation priority or if it even affects SR in the first place. Double Dargon teams with Mega Salamence and normal Ray will most likely be pretty good anyway, but as a standalone Pokemon, Mega Ray is pretty fucking scary. On mixed sets, the combination of DM and Dragon Ascent 2HKOs almost any mon in the tier, regardless of investment in either Atk or SpA other than a few Steel-types (correct me if I'm wrong), and the fact that Ray can switch into a lot more things now with the loss of Rock weakness and an added Electric resistance including a bit more bulk allows it to take advantage of a lot of other mons, including both Primals unboosted at least once. DD and SD sets will pretty much clean up entire teams especially if SR is up, and that extra bonus Speed puts it in a whole new ball game, outspeeding most of its original offensive checks (Palk, Xern), and 1 DD outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame in one fell swoop. Mega Ray is going to be extremely difficult to deal with, and is a lot more splashable than it was before with Delta Stream, allowing it to either support another sweeper (Primal Don) or become the threat itself. Taking up a Mega Slot will most likely be a larger opportunity cost as of now with Ray, Salamence, and even Metagross (actually a pretty awesome Xern check if you think about it) competing for team spots.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Welp you can play ORAS ubers on PS now in custom games if you want to.

 

[Vengeance417]

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 336-396 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO (Factoring in Delta Stream)

I understand that DClaw Primal Donner may be an optional coverage move if most variants are going to be RP or SD sets, but Stone Edge is pretty much going to be on any set, making normal Ray not so great as a check. Keep in mind that the above calcs would be OHKOs and 2HKOS respectively if SR is in play, but we don't know Delta Stream's activation priority or if it even affects SR in the first place. Double Dargon teams with Mega Salamence and normal Ray will most likely be pretty good anyway, but as a standalone Pokemon, Mega Ray is pretty fucking scary. On mixed sets, the combination of DM and Dragon Ascent 2HKOs almost any mon in the tier, regardless of investment in either Atk or SpA other than a few Steel-types (correct me if I'm wrong), and the fact that Ray can switch into a lot more things now with the loss of Rock weakness and an added Electric resistance including a bit more bulk allows it to take advantage of a lot of other mons, including both Primals unboosted at least once. DD and SD sets will pretty much clean up entire teams especially if SR is up, and that extra bonus Speed puts it in a whole new ball game, outspeeding most of its original offensive checks (Palk, Xern), and 1 DD outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame in one fell swoop. Mega Ray is going to be extremely difficult to deal with, and is a lot more splashable than it was before with Delta Stream, allowing it to either support another sweeper (Primal Don) or become the threat itself. Taking up a Mega Slot will most likely be a larger opportunity cost as of now with Ray, Salamence, and even Metagross (actually a pretty awesome Xern check if you think about it) competing for team spots.

Even better for Mega Ray: need those steels gone? Run V-Create or Earthquake.

I really don't see too many switch ins to mixed Mega Rayquaza...

 

[Rechi]

http://pastebin.com/gyY3FF0p

Delta Stream also reduces Stealth Rock damage for Flying types too apparently.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

http://pastebin.com/gyY3FF0p

Delta Stream also reduces Stealth Rock damage for Flying types too apparently.

Info is false

 

[Fireburn]

Yeah, Delta Stream does not reduce Stealth Rock damage.

What is interesting is that we still don't know how Mega Rayquaza evolves as they can't find the trigger...

Hopefully it has some sort of item restrictions, because if it doesn't then may Arceus save the Ubers tier.

 

[Rechi]

Info is false

It didn't have the "not" before, my bad.

 

[SuperWumbology]

252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Mega Altaria: 90-106 (25.4 - 29.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 210+ SpD Mega Altaria in Rain: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Mega Altaria: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Mega Altaria: 217-256 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Altaria is actually pretty nifty. Being a good blanket check to most Dragons (possibly Mega Ray without SR up but I need moar calcs) and having access to Heal Bell is actually pretty sweet. Taking up a Mega Slot may be a bit annoying, but I think Altaria can most likely find a spot on balanced/stall teams (if they actually exist in ORAS):

Teh Clerik
Altaria @ Altarite
Calm Nature
252 HP / 40 Def / 210 SpD
-Heal Bell
-Roost
-Hyper Voice
-Toxic

This set absolutely fucks with most popular support Arcs (not Poison tho thats scurry, maybe Fairy but it doesnt like Toxic) and most CM or stallbreaker variants (Darceus hates this guy lol). The EVs are to guaranteed to avoid the 2HKO from a max ATK LO Zek Bolt Strike (without SR), and the rest are poured into SDef. Might be decent glue but idk (did I mention this completely walls ALL PALKIA VARIANTS take that Specs :P). The meta may not treat it kindly with all that Primal Donner bs, but Toxic can at least slow it down. More kinds of discussion of the different Megas might be interesting and how they would affect the meta even with all this competition (MegaGross could be cool), as all this Primal Donner talk is pretty depressing :(

Edit: Actually Perish Song might be better than Toxic since I realized that Altaria is kinda owned by STAG and it scares off Goth, most CM Arceus, and even Ray and Primal Don.