Dealing with Grass-Types?

I wanted to discuss Grass-types real quick. Could have posted in the Metagame thread, but I felt this was needed because it's a specific matter within the game. Plus, it could possibly help out a couple players (including myself, I legitimately want to know on some of these).

If there's one group of Pokemon that could be described as unsung heroes or even the dark horses in DPP, I think it's the Grass-type Pokemon. While Grass has always been a key component of many teams over the years, I've felt they've never been truly as striking within OU. Mainly because of the superstar types like Dragon, Steel, Water, etc. taking the spotlight all the time. Heck, even some of the weaker types may be more notable because of their liabilities.

Of course, this isn't to say the Grass-types themselves in OU are weak. Quite the contrary, they are dangerous and that's why I made this thread. Because of the type's smaller "profile" if you can call it that, I have felt that there has never been a solid ground on the matter of both preparing for them when building a team and actually combating them in battle over all these years. There are only four Grass-types in OU (one, Shaymin, only rose to the tier in mid/late Platinum). Each has their roles and can do them extremely well. I'm mainly created this thread for Shaymin and Breloom, but Celebi and Roserade can be roped in because of what I feel about Grass in general.

Gonna detail each of them a bit (Breloom and Shaymin more than the other two), and add some personal stuff and use those as starts. So yeah, the mysterious Grass-type Pokemon.



Breloom

While not the overall best Grass-type (in my opinion), it's arguably the most dangerous and among the worst Pokemon in the tier to overlook when building a team. I know we've all built teams in the past that could be fully halted by this thing and somehow never be able to break out of its wrath. The cornerstone of its sets is, of course, Spore. Unless you have a couple protocols in dealing with it, you're going to have to play with one less mon on your team as long as it's slept. Of course it gets easier to deal with once Sleep Clause is activated, but still, nobody asleep is better than somebody asleep (against your control). Substitute, Leech Seed, and Poison Heal make it really annoying to take down in any sort of speed. Finally, its sky-high Attack rounds out the package with dual STABs like Seed Bomb and Focus Punch, providing some decent enough coverage and doing hefty damage to anyone not resisting them (and in the case of Focus Punch, even some resists need to watch out).

The big problem with countering Breloom is how some of its "counters" can be extremely limited in their strength providing you got the right tools. Celebi itself on paper, is the most obvious counter. Resists both STABs quite well, is immune to Leech Seed, and has Natural Cure to get rid of Sleep. I think Celebi is among the most solid and consistent Pokemon in OU, but you can't ignore its weakness to Tyranitar, who can checkmate it in many situations. Scizor gets opportunities to use its utility moves. Hell, Breloom can even play around Natural Cure a bit and go for a second Spore as they switch out to remove it from Celebi.

One of my favorites, Gyarados faces issues as well. Alone, it does the job, especially the Sleep Talk set. Switch in right away to get the Intimidate drop and absorb the sleep. However, Stealth Rock cuts its survivability considerably so someone using Breloom just has to be on top of keep rocks on the field. In fact, this applies to many Flying-types, as they hate rocks too. Crobat, for example, has a 4X resist to both STABs, but needs to be cautious when switching in, otherwise be slept or seeded (in addition to the SR damage).

It's not all about switching in and being immune to Breloom though. How annoying is it to take a Leech Seed? Yes, you can get rid of it by switching, but that's a forced play, which the Breloom user can take advantage of. If you don't switch, you are still likely in a negative position, because they can then switch out to their own counter and heal a bit with Leech Seed, while it softens up your own Pokemon. It all adds up in making Breloom harder to deal with.



Shaymin

I personally see Shaymin and Celebi equally effective in play for the most part, but Shaymin has much less of a gaping weakness that can have it checkmated. Plus, offensively, it has the upper hand. I think at the end of the day, Shaymin might be the best Grass type and it's the main reason for this thread (I constantly had problems with it and would like to hear some methods to combat it). Huge stat total, allowing it last forever with it's amazing bulk, a great Special Attack stat backed with the stupidly dangerous STAB Seed Flare, and a good Speed tier to sit at.

I find it hard to effectively prepare for when building teams. There is obvious stuff to attempt to wall it, but it's not that easy when you take a SpD drop and not have many other options to switch in. It's fast enough to where the player can simply use a coverage move to then eliminate a check. You can't status it because of Natural Cure either.

When you look at it, how can you beat an offensive set (or any set for that matter)? By being lucky with prediction. Either somehow get something faster in or by hoping the opponent mispredicts a move at some point and switches Shaymin into a super effective move.

As previously said with Breloom, even if you can get someone safely in, taking a negative side effect can just play into its hands. I've continuously had to take Leech Seeds and watch it run away to do the same thing later on, never being able to be knocked out until near the end of the match. Shaymin is riskier to deal with due to Seed Flare.

The one falter in its build is Seed Flare's PP, fortunately for us. It's only got eight uses, maybe less if Pressure is factored in. Still, those little uses can be enough to wreak havoc in a short period of time.

How do you guys deal with this thing? I've always just relied on carrying at least a couple Grass resists simply to eat up SF. Rapid Spin support is crucial for flyers so they don't get worn down by Stealth Rock, while you need to be ready for Earth Power and HP Fire/Ice (hopefully it doesn't pack the type you're weak to). I mean, it's all you can do for the most part.



Celebi

While the Psychic typing can cause a lot of problems, it doesn't fully ruin Celebi. I used it on a lot of teams, and besides Tyranitar, I've never been held back significantly by anything else. Of course HP Fire clinches some of the Steels, but I never felt weighted down by using it on a lot of sets. Celebi is just resilient. Recover and Natural allows it to come in and sponge hits again and again. The Grass STABs can provide massive power in a pinch (Leaf Storm mainly) and it can even set up and sweep unprepared teams with Nastly Plot (or pass the boost to someone else with Baton Pass). This is all backed by the rounded stats, which do a lot to provide flexibility in how much it can do.

The addition of Recover usually makes Celebi harder to straight muscle through than Shaymin. I always use it to absorb status and block certain threats. Pull away when in danger and find the time to heal later on. Don't rely on it too much, otherwise you'll find some moves doing far more damage than you'd want (depends on the EV spread you use).



Roserade

Obviously not a potent behemoth like the other three, but can still be effective in certain team types. Good Speed and Special stats. The Speed is the most important, because it aids in the use of the sparsely-spread Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sleep Powder (at least in regards to the amount of effective users of the three moves in OU). Natural Cure allows it to take some status and while not exactly bulky (its SpD is decent though), smart switching allows it lengthen its playtime.

I've never had too many problems with dealing with it for the most part. It can be annoying on some teams, but I always manage to take it out swiftly, mainly because the opponent is so busy laying hazards on the field. Hell, I might not even be that affected by either hazard. Sleep Powder can put someone down though, so don't take it lightly.


Typed up more than I thought I was going to, but whatever. This is open for these Pokemon as well as the Grass-typing itself, so let's see if we can make some ground on the topic, if only a little bit.​
 
Last edited:
Roserade I feel is actually pretty big, as it is pretty much the most viable TSpikes user, and by extent a cornerstone of a lot of teams. All sorts of teams love TSpikes up, for a variety of reasons: Stall and semi-stall use it to apply pressure and force switches. Balance and Offense: Boosting sweepers with grounded checks simply need to be able to take a hit or two, stall, and watch the damage stack up. Roserade can also function really nicely in for roles: Sleep Powder is lethal if it hits, not something to count on but still. Leaf Storm shells anything that doesn't resist Grass and isn't named Blissey. Natural Cure helps with being a hit and run attacker as you ignore status. So yeah, despite being the worst of the OU Grass types, Roserade is no pushover by a long shot.

Will update with stuff on the others when I get time: Is Shaymin really that lethal? Seems walled by SpDef Jirachi and TTar/Tran (depending on Hidden Power) tbh.
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis the 5th Smogon Classic Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Championis a defending SPL Championis a Past SPL Champion
Big Chungus Winner
Pretty good thread.

I love grass types, especially in DPP. They have such precious roles it's actually incredible. My two favorites by far are Breloom and Roserade (especially the former), and I like Shaymin a lot too, unlike Celebi. They also all share the ability to absorb status for their team.

Breloom is incredible at getting momentum on your side and dent/scout your opponent team. You can almost be sure it'll do a ton of work if you face Balance or Stall. It doesn't shine as much vs Offense, but if it gets an opportunity to pull its shenanigans (it abuses ScarfTtar or Gyarados pretty easily), it'll do a lot of work as well. And that's just his SubPuncher set. Spore 3 Atks and Leech Seed Mach Punch has both seen some usage lately, especially the latter thanks to BKC and they're really great at what they do. They stick around while playing a bigger role against offensive teams, I recommand you guys to try it out (I was sceptical at first, but it definitly grew up on me).

I pretty much always use a defensive spread, I never found myself needing the attack investment while the defense boost is incredible to tank U-Turns with the sub or many various hits (Gyarados +1, DDTar, Aerodactyl, etc).

Roserade is in my opinion the best Toxic Spiker of the tier and is tied for best Spiker with Skarmory. I particulary value its ability to scare off both Starmie and Forretress with the Grass/Fire coverage, which means your opponent will have to play a few turns with the hazards on their field.

I've been liking Scarf Shaymin a lot lately. It has a great speed tier, a useful bulk early-mid game, hits hard and is unexpected. To top it off, it has access to Healing Wish, a really strong option for offensive teams. Unlike Celebi, it doesn't have access to U-Turn, but I much prefer the lack of Dark and 4xBug weakness which are huge dealbreakers for me.

Celebi's best niche in DPP (note it's only my opinion here) is its defensive set. It's a great asset for Stall teams and it has access to direct recovery in the form of Recover, making it a lot less abusable than Roserade or Shaymin in that regard.

All in all, Grass-types own and are real metagame shaper now (Breloom is top 10 in Smogon Tour usage, and Celebi/Roserade are top 20).
 
Last edited:
Celebi is pretty underrated, i don't see it that often compared to LO/seedmin, lead/spikes roserade and ofc breloom, the paralysis from the tinkerbell is really head-scratching when you are playing offense, the spD one is also nice.

Venusaur can be cool in some teams too, and abomasnow is really good at checking starmie/suicune (as long as you don't face hp fire huh) and jolteon sometimes.
 
A lot of offensive teams - say something along the lines of Metagross / Flygon / Zapdos / Tyranitar / Starmie / Infernape - are pretty dangerous but have some struggles with the two bulky grounds, Swampert and Hippowdon (especially the latter because of Slack Off). Breloom is amazing because it waltzes in on those two (+ Gliscor) to start fucking everything sideways. Before I start I think that a Loom team should have an SR mon that can kill common Starmie / Forretress (bonus points if it beats the other crap like Tentacruel / Donphan / Hitmontop) because that makes the mushroom a hell of a lot harder to deal with. Anyway to start off it's sleeping one dude, which is already pretty great. Next, if your opponent is running an offensive team, he's probably losing a mon before forcing you out, and if he's running something more defensive that can actually stomach some of Loom's hits, then they're forced to heal up after you hit them (especially if SR is up - a lot if its counters, like Zapdos, Crobat and Dragonite are weak to it! also it prevents ResTalk Gyara from switching in with impunity; seriously, teams that rely on Gyara to beat Breloom deserve to lose), which gives you a free switch to whatever. Loom might not come back too many more times against offense but it'll waltz in all day against stall since so many of their dudes can't hit it. What seperates it from the other grasses in this regard - that is, the ability to harass just about everything with a master's degree in shitting on stall - is that it's always healing just by being on the field. This isn't to say the others aren't good at it, because they are, but the others are neutral to SR as opposed to Loom's resistance (which also lets it counter Aerodactyl and non-mix Tyranitar), and Poison Heal means it's gaining health even in sand, unlike the others who can merely just cancel it out with Leftovers and need to actively use Leech Seed/Recover/Rest to heal themselves.

A bit on the Leech + Mach set of mine that McM mentioned. It looks retarded at first, but I swear it works! My "good" "friend" "Jirachee" has dubbed the set "cancebolaids" due to how much he loves it and some random named "boudouche" stole it for his own team :pirate: Anyway on my offensive team I needed a solid switch in to grounds + rocks, and to pressure stall a bit more. Breloom is great at doing this, but I wanted him to stick around or I'd get worn down after switching into Scarftar or LO Aero a few times. So, I wanted Leech Seed on it. However I didn't want to run SubSeed for a few reasons. First of all, that set loses to Gliscor, which is unacceptable. Second of all, if I wanted Loom to stick around, Sub probably wasn't going to see a ton of use. Third, I wouldn't actually be able to damage Swampert and Hippo, which was half the reason I was putting Loom on the team in the first place. Leech Seed + Seed Bomb it was. I obviously wasn't going to use unprotected Focus Punch as my Fighting STAB, so I figured... why not Mach Punch, extra priority never killed anyone right? It's been ridiculously useful, picking off weakened things left and right. Revenge killing a fully set up SubPetaya Empoleon that would otherwise sweep me off my ass is pretty high up there on the ecstasy scale.

Shaymin is great. Leech + Protect fucks with every kind of team, especially if you get hazards up, since no spinners come in on it. I ran 3 atks + Healing Wish @ Life Orb before, it's really strong; dent shit really hard early game, heal up one of your other dudes late game. Growth is a very potent sweeper. Cute n_n

Roserade is more than just a spiker, although that is certainly what it's best at. It can be a very dangerous special attacker that is not only stronger than Cele/Shay but also has access to Sleep Powder. Solid scarfer too, absorbing tspikes for an offensive team is underappreciated.

Celebi can do a million things. Great offensive SR setter since it comes in on a ton of shit and nothing spins against it. Nasty Plot/Calm Mind sets are dangerous, it can even BP them! The physically/specially defensive sets are incredibly tanky on whichever side of the spectrum, giving them plenty of time to Heal Bell. Good scarfer with access to Trick and U-turn.

Venusaur is like a Roserade without Natural Cure but with a ton more physical bulk, making it a lot harder to kill for some teams (for example Tyranitar into Roserade is a reasonable move but pretty desperate against Venu).

Abomasnow is a terror. Perfect Suicune counter, harasses everything besides Clefable with Leech Seed because Grass-types don't wanna eat an SE STAB Ice attack, and an underrated mixed attacker. It even revenge kills rampaging Flygon and Dragonite! SR weakness blows but once it's in it's doing a lot of damage.

Sceptile is pretty strong. It's really frail and doesn't come in all that easily but with some prediction it's gonna leave a sizable mark. It outruns Scarftar, which is a rare trait for a special attacker. Great coverage that lets it blow up pretty much everything, especially since it can hit Steels + Dragons at once thanks to Dragon Pulse.

Jumpluff is a fun SubSeeder, Encore is a great move.

Ludicolo is a good rain sweeper. Fakes had a team with the SubSeeder and it's Abomasnow-esque minus the SR weakness.

Torterra :heart:
 
Last edited:

Jirachee

phoenix reborn
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Lord Ninjax said:
Will update with stuff on the others when I get time: Is Shaymin really that lethal? Seems walled by SpDef Jirachi and TTar/Tran (depending on Hidden Power) tbh.
Tyranitar doesn't wall Shaymin because STAB Super Effective Seed Flare wrecks it. Heatran also is kind of a gamble since a lot of Shaymin will carry Earth Power which obviously destroys it. SpDef Jirachi isn't really as common as it is in BW and you can always avoid paralysis thanks to Natural Cure.

Anyway,

I think a lot of people underestimate how hard it can be to kill a well supported Abomasnow. I find that it pairs particularly well with Starmie and if you can keep the rocks away, you can just switch in just about any Water or Electric aside from Zapdos, Rotom-Heat and Stone Edge Gyarados and completely shut them down. Abomasnow works incredibly well on Stall teams because with (Toxic) Spikes support it can stall out a lot of things, and Spikes immune Pokemon tend to have a hard time switching into it. It also owns just about any Starmie except for BKC's counterteaming EBelt set which is super rare. Abomasnow also helps against a few mons that usually give Stall a very hard time, like Gliscor for example, as long as you have a cleric. I'm not really a big fan of the mixed set but you should give Seed + Protect a try if you haven't.

I'd also like to say that I think Roserade is one of the best leads in the metagame. Lum Berry and Taunt leads are not as common as they used to be and a lot of popular leads are slower (Sash Machamp, and a lot of Zapdos run a Modest nature) which allows you to get Sleep Powder off very reliably and guarantees a layer or two of Toxic Spikes that are pretty effective against all kinds of teams. Also unlike a lot of hazard leads it owns Starmie!!!
 
Will update with stuff on the others when I get time: Is Shaymin really that lethal? Seems walled by SpDef Jirachi and TTar/Tran (depending on Hidden Power) tbh.

Echoing Jirachee on those examples. SpD Jirachi can't actually do anything to Shaymin other than hopelessly status it and Wish pass to something else while you may take a Leech Seed. Like I said, anything you send out is at risk at getting softened by Seed Flare then hit by another move. I'm maybe thinking the safest would be SpD Celebi and Crobat (though Crobat needs rocks to be gone so it can be more reliable) as they are resistant/immune to SF/EP are at better positions than others are if there's no SpD drop from SF.
 
Gengar can be a soft switch against Celebi / Shaymin on offensive teams that lacks a better way to kill them, since it can tank a leaf storm / seed flare and RK the weakened mon. It's still a pretty bad check but you can't play crobat/zapdos in a middle of a team just to deal with them.
 
Checking grass types:
Step 1: Find out if it's using Hp Fire or Hp ice
Step 2: Check grass type
Man. I wonder how we didn't come up with this earlier. Maybe cause we thought said Grass types would Leech Seed and switch, or para/sleep us on the switch, or pack a SpDef lowering move that puts a ton of stuff within 2HKO range/ a super powerful Fighting type move that does a ton of hurt to resists. Why didn't we think to just scout for Hidden Power?

Anyways, sarcasm aside.
Celebi is pretty cool, cause its pretty darn versatile. It can run a defensive set to status absorb, check certain threats, spread paralysis, stop some set-uppers like CroCune etc. Makes a solid Scarfer as Leaf Storm does a ton. As a SR setter, yeah it wrecks all common spinners so its solid, plus can fulfil a solid offensive role beyond that. Most lethal to me though, are the set-up sets with CM and Nasty Plot, as the threat they can pose is immense in the right circumstances (Heatran being dead). Idk why people find TTar an issue, I just rely on U-Turn/BP to escape it and I pack an appropriate check to go to. Celebi is cool, while it may not have the cool power and interesting options of the other grass types, it can do something for almost any team and is a solid pick for sure (better than Shaymin IMO, Shaymin's lethal but Celebi is more well rounded)
 
Man. I wonder how we didn't come up with this earlier. Maybe cause we thought said Grass types would Leech Seed and switch, or para/sleep us on the switch, or pack a SpDef lowering move that puts a ton of stuff within 2HKO range/ a super powerful Fighting type move that does a ton of hurt to resists. Why didn't we think to just scout for Hidden Power?
Fine I'll go into depth, whith information that can all be inferred from my comment:

1) Grass types all have terrible coverage
2) When teambuilding you don't have the pack one single pokemon to combat all grass types (e.g. gengar), you can split the task between pokemon e.g.
Dragonite to check sets without HP ice and Scizor to check sets without HP fire
Or Zapdos and Skarmory for defensive teams
3) Leech seed is more annoying than anything else, yes it deals residual damage and heals. But it uses up a turn to plant and is removed on switching, can require prediction and can miss. Switching something with leftovers into leech seed, its not a big deal and wont end your game.
4) Don't treat breloom like a grass type it doesn't play like a grass type, it doesn't really check things that grass types check, like waters and some electrics. Treat Breloom like a fighting type.

In addition I'll add that Abomasnow is except from all this because it is awesome. It checks water and electrics much more comfortably that any other grass types. It has great coverage with blizzard and eq. Hail damage negates opponents leftovers. Hail helps abomasnow get leftovers. Don't know why it's so unpopular, the sr weakeness is more than manageable with leech seed and protect.
 
So, what does venusaur and torterra do in OU, I heard torterra was a decent rock polisher, but I have no clue about venusaur :]
 
Yeah Venusaur is lethal on the right teams for its walling abilities: It's like Celebi but with Sleep Powder, better defenses and the ability to beat TTar (or at least not be scared out to die). As Breloom and Shaymin show, Leech Seeding switchins is annoying

I've never seen Torterra in action but from what I've heard yeah its a fearsome Rock Polisher. Its bulky, strong, and at +2 Speed its fast enough to sweep more or less the unboosted metagame. Sadly most Scarfers with an SE move shut it down, an Ice Shard also beats its, but under the right circumstances it wins games.
 

Isa

I've never felt better in my life
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
can someone link me the last game of somewhat high prestige where either player used torterra? if it hasn't been used seriously for a few years then i dont see any point in discussing it other than listing why you should not use it
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top