np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[kokoloko]

calloflochie is an idiot. we need 8/12 uu votes to keep it and only 6 people have voted.

so yeah it's probably staying, but its too early to call it. sorry peeps.

Gonna call the vote slightly early but Mega Alakazam will be staying UU unless the next 6 council members all vote ban which probably won't happen, so rejoice UU, finally a Pokemon stays :]

I put this there so you can actually read it and then read what you wrote. It's literally the same thing retard.

-UUTL who can actually read

no it isn't, as only five had to vote BL, moron.

-koko

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Is Modest or Timid better on Megazam? I am torn between both. I feel like Modest is obviously better for the power, but timid allows it to outspeed stuff like scarf chandy and speed tie jolly m-aero, in addition to not having to speed tie with like non-scarf mienshao. any thoughts?

 

[kokoloko]

depends on the set. if you wanna run just a cleaner, then modest is probably better, but i'd definitely run protect on it. if you wanna run CM, or even CM + recover, then i'd go timid since you can't fit protect and don't wanna miss out on a chance to sweep past mega aero.

 

[Calloflochie]

Holy shit guys, my prediction was correct!!! The next 2 votes for Mega Zam were UU so now it is officially staying

Gonna call the vote slightly early but Mega Alakazam will be staying UU unless the next 6 council members all vote ban which probably won't happen, so rejoice UU, finally a Pokemon stays :]

Also, check out muh new Custom title, looking crispE,,,,

Mega Zam is now official UU and now since I have some time I'll remember to put the paragraphs of Victini and Alakazam in. PARAGRAPHS HERE

 

[Patrick1088]

So hows everybody feeling on togekiss so far? My initial thoughts...

1. Similar to Rachi in ParaFlinching annoyance
2. Great movepool in Nasty Plot, Roost, Heal Bell, Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Air Slash, Trick, Dazzling Gleam, Grass Knot.
3. Base 80 speed is really meh. Ever since we lost Mew, the Niods became top tier wallbreakers and King is in that crucial base 85 speed tier.
4. Lack of faster steel types really gives Toge an edge since itcan paraflinch them to death relatively quickly. The only exceptions are Jirachi (probably the best check so long as it doesnt get paralyzed), AgiliGross and Lucario (maimed by almost every move Toge has).

Im leaning more towards BL on this one so far. While similar to Rachi, spamming flying moves is much easier in UU than spamming Iron Head in a tier chock full of fire, steel and water types (Entei, Arcanine, Darmanitan, Mega Aggron, Metagross, Vaporeon, Suicune). The number of pokes resistant to flying are only a handful and they are going to be slower with no form of recovery and are maimed by Toge coverage moves in Fire Blast and Aura Sphere. And it can even beat the Nidos with a scarf set.

It doesnt have any true counters and its checks are few and far between. I hate to say it, but i think our little dive bomber needs to go back to BL...

Edit: i forgot about Rotom-H and Mega Amphy, but theyre almost cleanly 2hko by a boosted Aur Sphere and Dazzling Gleam...

+2 8 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 127-150 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 8 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 372-440 (105 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Toge faster 80 speed lets it roost on the slow Volt switch or TBolt from Mega Amphy as well

 

[RyanKoopa]

Having played against Togekiss a couple times I have to say I think it's as broken now as it was last time we tested it. It's just too damn bulky for what it does, it's essentially Blissey, Jirachi and a sweeper mixed together.

 

[Master B8s]

In my opinion, togekiss is too broken for UU. it has a great defensive typing with above average bulk, it has so much versatility to it, but that's not what's broken. It can be a hazard control with Defog, cleric with wish and heal bell, it even has roost for recovery on non wish sets. I personally like the defensive sets since they aren't haxy, and togekiss can pull it off extremely well. The reason I lean to ban is because of its unlimited haxiness. The nasty plot sets need sticky web imo cause base 80 speed is very meh and can be outsped easily, but that's just what I think. The nasty plot sets are amazing as it can boost its fairly good SpA even higher, as well as have all the coverage it needs in Air Slash, Aura Sphere, and Fire Blast. But trying to counter it is quite shakey which is why I think it shouldn't stay. Normally a counter can come in on any set, and force the pokemon out, but togekiss can just spam air slash and para flinch (if you run t wave) the counter to death. for example, say you're running Jirachi to force out togekiss, but it's paralyzed on the switch cause of T-wave, togekiss can get out, which should normally happen, but it can also Just hax you to death by spamming air slash Jirachi is dead. So your counter needs to be able to take a hit from kiss, and be faster in theory, or you risk being haxed to death, which there aren't many pokemon in UU that fit the bill. When a pokemon can just hax it's way in theory passed its counters, I find that unhealthy for the meta.

P.S: if you run scarf kiss, I disike you already, I hate scarfachis that spam iron head, and togekiss spamming air slash is no different.

Sorry for the wall of a post.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Togekiss I feel is pretty alright in UU. Mega-Amp and Jirachi are some of the biggest defensive threats in the tier atm, and things like Nidoking/queen are the best wall breakers. Togekiss can completely destroy stall, but I feel it has trouble against offense because it doesn't have all the tools that ppl are making it out to be. If it runs defog, it isn't offensive. If it's running NP + 3 attacks, it is vulnerable to status + no healing. If it runs NP + Roost or whatever, you're going to be walled, choose your counter.

ParaFlinching is a strong strat, but jirachi can do that if you really wanna play like that.

tbh i don't care if it stays or not, we gained mega-zam which can really hurt almost all variants of togekiss, and with electric types being some of the best special hitters (jolt, amp, and raikou), and with strong fire types still (darm, nape, entei), I can't see togekiss being a threat to anything other than full stall.

if it gets banned, it should be because it completely beats a play style while still being able to hold its own against balance and being a good support mon against offense.

tl;dr ban if you think stall doesn't need another killer.

 

[Kink]

I have to admit that Machamp's new trend of heavy slam really puts a dent in togekiss's brokenness... though I still think it's S rank if not still too broken due to it's incredibly diverse movepool and setlist.

 

[Jellied Eels]

^ Dugtrio says hi to literally every pokemon you listed in your post UU ALL DAY (and it's not even hard to get duggy in considering np pass is one of the most solid toge sets - for me the best sets are twave, np + heal bell and bp). And I mean even without taking Dugtrio into account it's pretty obvious that Togekiss puts much more of a strain on teambuilding that you let on, Raikou spam is almost obnoxious on the ladder currently (reminds me of the Virizion spike in usage during the Manaphy retest) and Jirachi seems to be used on 100% of teams lol.

Tbh I don't even really buy the "omg versatility" posts, I mean I don't think defog sets or even lo np + 3 attacks are gonna be gamebreaking any time soon. Imo there are simply a couple of really good sets that make a joke of even safe bets like Mega Aero (and I'm not talking about tailwind + hp ice or sthg but simply the twave set because good luck actually hitting two stone edges through paraflinch). Need a great stallbreaker ? Use NP + Heal Bell Togekiss. Need sthg that can provide speed control and actually switch into a plethora of offensive staples like Hydreigon or Shao ? Use twave Toge. Togekiss just has the potential to improve your team's matchup against virtually any team archetype in uu, it's just too much of a general goodstuff mon imo.

 

[Chronobreak]

In my opinion, togekiss is too broken for UU. it has a great defensive typing with above average bulk, it has so much versatility to it, but that's not what's broken. It can be a hazard control with Defog, cleric with wish and heal bell, it even has roost for recovery on non wish sets. I personally like the defensive sets since they aren't haxy, and togekiss can pull it off extremely well. The reason I lean to ban is because of its unlimited haxiness. The nasty plot sets need sticky web imo cause base 80 speed is very meh and can be outsped easily, but that's just what I think. The nasty plot sets are amazing as it can boost its fairly good SpA even higher, as well as have all the coverage it needs in Air Slash, Aura Sphere, and Fire Blast. But trying to counter it is quite shakey which is why I think it shouldn't stay. Normally a counter can come in on any set, and force the pokemon out, but togekiss can just spam air slash and para flinch (if you run t wave) the counter to death. for example, say you're running Jirachi to force out togekiss, but it's paralyzed on the switch cause of T-wave, togekiss can get out, which should normally happen, but it can also Just hax you to death by spamming air slash Jirachi is dead. So your counter needs to be able to take a hit from kiss, and be faster in theory, or you risk being haxed to death, which there aren't many pokemon in UU that fit the bill. When a pokemon can just hax it's way in theory passed its counters, I find that unhealthy for the meta.

P.S: if you run scarf kiss, I disike you already, I hate scarfachis that spam iron head, and togekiss spamming air slash is no different.

Sorry for the wall of a post.

Ok, I kinda have to address this, but just because a pokemon is haxy should not decide if it's broken or not, Jirachi is equally haxy, and it is just as versatile and can run (almost) the same sets as kiss. While Kiss may be broken, making the decision based essentially on Serene Grace is not OK imo.

 

[cacturne]

Ok, I kinda have to address this, but just because a pokemon is haxy should not decide if it's broken or not, Jirachi is equally haxy, and it is just as versatile and can run (almost) the same sets as kiss. While Kiss may be broken, making the decision based essentially on Serene Grace is not OK imo.

making the comparison to rachi is really incorrect imo. rachi has a much worse stab to abuse in iron head and has very very problematic weaknesses to dark and ground as well as no way to boost the underwhelming power as iron head. Togie can boost the power of its air slash, had strong typing, and can pivot out (though rachi can do this too) with baton pass, not only allowing toge to pivot out but potentially be a huge team player giving a mon +2 or more special attack

 

[Chronobreak]

making the comparison to rachi is really incorrect imo. rachi has a much worse stab to abuse in iron head and has very very problematic weaknesses to dark and ground as well as no way to boost the underwhelming power as iron head. Togie can boost the power of its air slash, had strong typing, and can pivot out (though rachi can do this too) with baton pass, not only allowing toge to pivot out but potentially be a huge team player giving a mon +2 or more special attack

Rachi can boost, just not as effectively, and Kiss has big weaknesses to Electric and Ice, but that's beside the point, I'm just saying Kiss shouldn't be banned based off haxing things to death.

Edit: Rachi also has fairly strong typing too, and offensive type in Psychic, and a good defensive type in Steel

 

[cacturne]

Rachi can boost, just not as effectively, and Kiss has big weaknesses to Electric and Ice, but that's beside the point, I'm just saying Kiss shouldn't be banned based off haxing things to death.

problem is its not "just hax" that makes kiss broken it's its bulk, utility, awesome typing, and ability to still pivot and be an amazing offensive presence. haxing things to death is just icing on the cake imo

 

[Master B8s]

Ok, I kinda have to address this, but just because a pokemon is haxy should not decide if it's broken or not, Jirachi is equally haxy, and it is just as versatile and can run (almost) the same sets as kiss. While Kiss may be broken, making the decision based essentially on Serene Grace is not OK imo.

I'm completely fine with togekiss as a hazard support or any support, I knew someone would say "Jirachi does the same with hax" but I don't mind Jirachi as a support set, or offensive pivot, I mind when you slap a scarf on it and click iron head and just pray for that 60% hax, like Cacturne said, togekiss has a much more spammable move, while Jirachi is checked by a lot of fire types in the tier, scarf darmanitan and ape for examples, togekiss has much less offensive checks that can kill kiss without it setting up in their face.

 

[Chronobreak]

problem is its not "just hax" that makes kiss broken it's its bulk, utility, awesome typing, and ability to still pivot and be an amazing offensive presence. haxing things to death is just icing on the cake imo

I know that, the guy above my first post said hax is what is pushing Kiss over the edge, which I both think we think is incorrect

 

[Master B8s]

I know that, the guy above my first post said hax is what is pushing Kiss over the edge, which I both think we think is incorrect

I'm not denying that kiss is broken solely on hax, but I'm sure 4/5 people will use para flinch or slap a scarf on when testing it.

Edit: it's kinda like smeargle, smeargle got banned cause of geo/quiver passing. It was a solid lead for HO to get their hazards up, nothing broken about it, but it still got the boot because most people ran the bp set over the lead set. I'm fine with hax, but when the hax becomes a strategy, then I have to protest it. I get burned from scaled? I'm fine. I loose one or two team members because someone can just click air slash as i helplessly hope for no flinch? I'll get mad.

 

[Sleepless]

Togekiss can completely destroy stall...

I think Togekiss, while annoying due to Serene Grace flinches, is quite manageable even to stall.
I personally run M-Aero that out-speeds Kiss, Taunts it and can take +2 Air Slashes.
Another great answer for stall to the standart Stallbreaker Togekiss is SpDef Toxic/Taunt Hydreigon.
I often seen ( and ran ) on stall choice users with Trick to cripple such set-up sweepers.
I mean, if a stall team is that kiss weak, it can run something specific like Inner Focus Yawn Umbreon I guess.
Stall haven't explored enough it's options to verdict it's dead by Togekiss imo.
edit : If it runs Twave, it means it lacks Heall Bell and then Blissey can deal with it. (unless +2 Air flinches all the way...)

 

[aim]

While I feel we have pokemon in UU such as Jirachi, Mega Ampharos, Raikou and Aerodactyl who are all solid checks/counters to Togekiss, I feel that its ability to potentially down any threat deserves it gone. With Serene Grace + Air Slash it can flinch down any opponent. It has access to Thunder Wave which combined with Air Slash gives you a 60% chance of flinching an opponent down. That isn't even the most threatening set imo. Nasty Plot 3 attacks (Air Slash Fire Blast Dazzling Gleam/Roost) is what truly makes Togekiss deadly. that set gives it the ability to get rid of Jirachi and Amphy, its most common "counters." Sub Nasty Plot Mono Air Slash allows it to beat pokemon that rely on statusing it to beat it. It's a solid mon and though checkable I feel it is just way too good in this current meta as it can take on so many roles.

 

[RowDog]

For me, there is one feature that pushes Togekiss over the line and makes it broken, and that is Nasty Plot. I'm not saying it is solely Nasty Plot, as it has a shit tonne of things going for it, but it is the real feature that differentiates from its bitch-ass flincher friend Jirachi. With Nasty Plot, Togekiss can now break through your check with a boost and some flinch hax, whereas Jirachi has some things which it will almost never (or should never considering how low the probability is) break. I've seen Togekiss with NP get a boost or sometimes 2 and break through some of the checks/counters listed, I am yet to see Jirachi break through a full health Suicune with Iron Head. And no it is not just that, but I feel for me that's what crosses the line, as well as everything else listed. Get this shit out of here please.

 

[Patrick1088]

I think Togekiss, while annoying due to Serene Grace flinches, is quite manageable even to stall.
I personally run M-Aero that out-speeds Kiss, Taunts it and can take +2 Air Slashes.
Another great answer for stall to the standart Stallbreaker Togekiss is SpDef Toxic/Taunt Hydreigon.
I often seen ( and ran ) on stall choice users with Trick to cripple such set-up sweepers.
I mean, if a stall team is that kiss weak, it can run something specific like Inner Focus Yawn Umbreon I guess.
Stall haven't explored enough it's options to verdict it's dead by Togekiss imo.
edit : If it runs Twave, it means it lacks Heall Bell and then Blissey can deal with it. (unless +2 Air flinches all the way...)

Its thebspammable flying STAB thats the issue here imo. Mega Aero is the fastest flying resist in UU and its maimed by t wave and will probably be parqflinched to death. Mega Ampharos is immune to paralysis and resist flying, but is slower (unless you run agility) and will have to deal with toge roosting on the predicted t bolt or volt switch. Even then, its maimed by dazzling gleam.

Weve seen this issue time and time again, flying is a great move to spam with few resists or the poke has great coverage to bypass its usual checks and counters. I see toge less like a rachi clone, but more of a fusion of Raptor and Victini. It has great coverage moves, great bulk, spammable air slashes and the ability to check its would be counters with t wave. Rachi cant blindly spam Iron Head.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

To be fair tho, we have some pretty awesome offensive threats that can potentially beat Togekiss with some hazard support. Remember, the offensive set is good, but only against slower teams; it doesn't have the bulk to stomach powerful hits. We have mega-aero and modest mega-zam and the likes.

im still pretty sure it'll get the boot, but i want it to stay to potentially check zygarde :]

 

[dodmen]

Actually, it most definitely does have the bulk to stomach most powerful neutral hits. 85HP/95Def/115SpDef isn't bad at all for an offensive Pokemon.

252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 180-213 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Obviously it's not switching in (but no offensive Pokemon is switching in on Modest MegaZam), but it has enough bulk to take the most powerful hit Zam has to offer after rocks, and follow with a Thunder Wave or Air Slash or whatever, without even needing to invest in HP. It has the bulk and typing to makes it so that you can't just come in and revenge kill it with your Scarfer, because it's simply not dying to most non-super effective moves, especially on the special side.

252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 174-205 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 176-210 (56.5 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 222-262 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its fantastic typing (both offensively and defensively), access to immediate recovery and an immediate boosting move, and Serene Grace is what really sets it apart from other mons like Jirachi.

In addition, it's got ways of getting around nearly every single one of its "checks", whether it be simply Paraflinching it, hitting it with a coverage move, or being able to work around other things that opponent throws at you with moves like Substitute and Heal Bell. It's just got so many options for getting around whatever it wants to and all of the above is what I think makes it broken.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Actually, it most definitely does have the bulk to stomach most powerful neutral hits. 85HP/95Def/115SpDef isn't bad at all for an offensive Pokemon.

252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 180-213 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Obviously it's not switching in (but no offensive Pokemon is switching in on Modest MegaZam), but it has enough bulk to take the most powerful hit Zam has to offer after rocks, and follow with a Thunder Wave or Air Slash or whatever, without even needing to invest in HP. It has the bulk and typing to makes it so that you can't just come in and revenge kill it with your Scarfer, because it's simply not dying to most non-super effective moves, especially on the special side.

252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 174-205 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 176-210 (56.5 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togekiss: 222-262 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its fantastic typing (both offensively and defensively), access to immediate recovery and an immediate boosting move, and Serene Grace is what really sets it apart from other mons like Jirachi.

In addition, it's got ways of getting around nearly every single one of its "checks", whether it be simply Paraflinching it, hitting it with a coverage move, or being able to work around other things that opponent throws at you with moves like Substitute and Heal Bell. It's just got so many options for getting around whatever it wants to and all of the above is what I think makes it broken.

Yeah...the issue is that it can't come into these hits, which is the entire point I was making. It can come in safely and dominate, but it can't get a "free" switch in like other mons. I mean, the best it does is switching in on Mienshao and things like krook, but other powerful threats threaten it out. If it is offensive, it can't defeat those mons that are threatening to it. If it's defensive, it relies on paraflinch to do so, but if it is a paraflinching set, there are other ways of dealing with it.

thats what im saying

in either case, any word on what the council think on banning it?

 

[Sam]

toge can't get a free switch? what?

toge switches safely in to some of the best mons in the tier right now such as hydreigon, krook, mienshao, machamp, haxorus, etc. and that's just offensive mons