Leftovers and Defensive Items

[Flamestrike]

Ah, okay. We'd need to discuss where exactly to set the number, but that would be an interesting option, I kinda like it.

 

[ZhengTann]

Oops I left this in the back attic for too long. /me uses Revive on topic.
The Revive in question is a tentative slate for Protector.

What should we do to Protector's effects?

• The equipped Pokemon gains 2 Def Ranks and 2 SpD Ranks, and gains the ability Battle Armor. This Pokemon does not feel any effect of being Sluggish.
• The equipped Pokemon gains 1 Def Ranks and 1 SpD Ranks, and gains the ability Rock Head.
• Reduces the Base Attack Power of attacks used against the Pokemon by two (2).
• Reduces the Base Attack Power of attacks used against the Pokemon by three (3).
• Reduces the Base Attack Power of attacks used against the Pokemon by one (1).

First is from Dogfish, second akela, third and fourth IAR's, and last is the vanilla no change option. If you have other ideas, please come forward and type. If you want to discuss the merits of each/any option in the slate, remember that we're trying to make Protector Rhyperior about as viable as Eviolite Rhydon, the closest competitor it has for the metagame niche. "About" sounds vague, I know, but I figure we can give it a shot.

Personally I think that IAR's options are solid in that he proved it possible to buff/denerf Protector with a simple numeric scaling. -3 might seem a little extreme given that Rhyperior does have Solid Rock but Rhydon doesn't, but even at -2, Protector Rhyperior would be a better special tank than Eviolite Rhydon, although the latter would still be the champ when it comes to taking physical hits. Akela's proposal, on the other hand, gives Protector Rhyperior offensive capabilities that are better than Rhydon's, given that recoil moves are weight-based and Rhyperior is certainly heavier than Rhydon, again at the cost of defenses against physical hits.

Flame, if you like the "no Sluggish" idea, mind typing and quoting it? Everyone else, I'll see what else we can slate in 48 hours. Also, discussion about Big Root is still ongoing (although people are already getting onto Band/Sash), so go ahead if you wanted to post about those instead ^_^

 

[Dogfish44]

My idea was, to a degree, not entirely serious. Although I do personally like any combination of the ideas I brought forward, not all should be used. I'd rather have a split poll:

- Should Protector have a BAP Decrease?

Yes, no other effect
Yes, and other effects
No, something else instead​

Then branch out from there (Yes goes to numbers then expands if needed, No expands directly).

 

[ZhengTann]

Okay, here's the flow (Eww another longish IF ELSE voting slate):

Should Protector retain it's original BAP decrease?
Yes, and only that (moves to Q2)
Yes, with additional effects (moves to Q2, then Q3)
No, take some other effect instead (moves to Q3)

How much BAP decrease should Protector have?
-1 (Retain)
-2
-3

What other effects should Protector have? (MBV, any option that gets majority is counted in, so please delete unwanted options)
+2 Rank to Def and SpDef
+1 Rank to Def and SpDef
Gains the Battle Armour ability
Gains the Rock Head ability
Does no incur Sluggish and Exhaustion effects

I find myself hoping we can take off the stat boosts, since BAP decrease can pretty much achieve the same effect. But each to his own. If after 12 hours of this post nobody said anything, Council may return to the Voting thread (reopened thanks to IAR) and get this in motion :) Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Haha akela you're kinda right about the Rhyperior-Rhydon comparison, I was wrong even with the word "about" to slightly offset the statement itself. Retaining the Rank boost options then, and let's get started. That said, let's get to Voting.

 

[Gerard]

The stat boosts represent a 1.5 / 1.5 and 2.5 / 3 BAP decrease depending on how many ranks it gets (on a regular Rhyperior) so while they're basically the same they give different numbers so I think they should be allowed.

 

[akela]

Really should keep the stat increases as an option. The point here is not necessarily to make Protector Rhyperior as viable as Eviolite Rhydon (I have no idea where you got that idea in the first place. I even outright stated there is no way to do that without breaking something). The point here is to bring Protector up to par with the similarly priced Signature Items. -1 BAP is not up to par with other signature items that are reducing incoming BAP by -1.5 (thanks to stat increases) on top of other effects. (Not to mention cheaper signature items and berries doing better than it)

 

[ZhengTann]

Okay, as far as I can read (honestly, are we three months past the start of this Council term? j/k), we've only two(three) items left. Let's shift the Focus to Sash and Band, we'll get to Big Root later. We've had some generic ideas and some more specific ones, so here are the ones I've kept track of:

What should be done with Focus Sash?
No changes
Focus Sash remains active while equipped Pokemon has above 30% HP
Focus Sash remains active if equipped Pokemon has above 50% HP at start of round

What should be done with Focus Band?
No changes
Focus Sash is active when equipped Pokemon has below 70% HP
Equipped Pokemon takes no more than 20% maximum HP damage per hit (removing the BAP deduction effect)

While the inactivity of this thread more or less proved that the items we have thus far are not crying for baptism of mechanics change, let's just throw this into the incinerator called Voting and see what remains (or rises from the ashes). If you have any ideas that you wish to see slated, or any suggestions, submit them critically while this slate has a 72-hour window. Thank you ^_^

EDIT @ Texas below: You're right, I may be presuming too much. Still, it's best if we can resolve this issue (whether or not we should get to Voting) instead of leaving it hanging. In absence of any voice from the community following this, maybe the Council could just vote No Changes and leave it be. Or, we could get mods (who, incidentally, constitute almost the majority of current Council members) to fiat it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Hold up, did we have any discussion at all about those two? Did anyone even say there needed to be changes aside from a couple of posts about Focus Band? I want more discussion or support for Focus changes before we starting voting on changes for no reason.

 

[Frosty]

Focus Sash/Band were discussed a bit here and on the feedback thread. Most opinions were for a change. Just check this thread.

I will leave the discussion open for 7 days (or more depending on the discussion). After that we vote.


And I will begin.

There are three issues with Focus Sash and Focus Band:
1) They normally end up resulting in a smaller bonus then other defensive items (like Leftovers)
2) Focus Band is always worse than Focus Sash
3) They are both really really good on x4 weak mons.

The first two issues usually mean that a considerable boost is needed. But the third means that we must tread carefully...

To understand this better, let's say we have a 100hp mon. If we assume that an attack have an average of 15bap (13bap accounting for Focus Sash/Band) after stab, rank differences and other stuff we will have the following situation.

Attack 1: 100->87 (Focus Sash)
Attack 2: 87->74 (Focus Sash)
Attack 3: 74->61 (Focus Sash)
Attack 4: 61->48 (Focus Sash)
Attack 5: 48->35 (Focus Band)
Attack 6: 35->22 (Focus Band)
Attack 7: 22->9 (Focus Band)
Attack 8: 9->dead (dead)

Focus Sash made a difference on 4 attacks, while Focus Band made a difference on 3. If the bap were 17 (15 with focus sash/band) Sash would make a difference in 4, while Band in 2. There is no way Sash and Band have the same effects.

Also, for neutral attacks Sash stopped 8hp of damage (while leftovers would restore at least 14hp assuming the opponent only attacks and you never use protect and the like).

for x2 we would have the following results:

Attack 1: 100->80.5 (Focus Sash)
Attack 2: 80.5->61 (Focus Sash)
Attack 3: 61->41.5 (Focus Sash)
Attack 4: 41.5->22 (Focus Band)
Attack 5: 22->3.5 (Focus Band)
Attack 6: 3.5->ded

Sash would have stopped 9hp of damage. Leftovers at least 10hp.

And for x4:

Attack 1: 100->70.75 (Focus Sash)
Attack 2: 70.75->41.5 (Focus Sash)
Attack 3: 41.5->12.25 (Focus Band)
Attack 4: 12.5->ded (ded)


Sash would have stopped 9hp of damage. Leftovers at least 6hp

And for x4 with 10bap instead of 15:

Attack 1: 100->82 (Focus Sash)
Attack 2: 82->64 (Focus Sash)
Attack 3: 64->46 (Focus Sash)
Attack 4: 46->28 (Focus Band)
Attack 5: 28->12 (Focus Band)
Attack 6: 12->ded

We have 13.5hp of damage avoided. Leftovers at least 10hp

And for x4 with Solid Rock and 10 bap:

Attack 1: 100->86.5 (Focus Sash)
Attack 2: 86.5->73 (Focus Sash)
Attack 3: 73->59.5 (Focus Sash)
Attack 4: 59.5->43 (Focus Sash)
Attack 5: 43->29.5 (Focus Band)
Attack 6: 29.5->16 (Focus Band)
Attack 7: 16->3.5 (Focus Band)
Attack 8: 3.5->ded

Sash prevented 18hp of damage (leftovers at least 14hp). Quite nice actually. Until you remember that in this situation the player would resort to neutral attacks, stab and other means to deal more damage.

If we consider that damage races like those aren't that common on most battles (and sure aren't if you have a x4 weakness), which means that there will be many turns where the respective mon isn't attack, we can safely say that leftovers>focus sash>focus band with neutral and x2 attacks and that leftovers=(roughly)Focus Sash>Focus Band with x4 attacks.

If you feel Focus Item should be used only by x4 mons and with a similar result to using leftovers, considering only 2 actions with attack prevention, then no boost is needed. Personally I find that specific situation rare and in the end leftovers is more worth it. But to each their own I suppose. Warrants voting, me thinks.

But one thing is certain: Focus Band is 100% outclassed by Focus Sash. For it I see a boost as unavoidable.

 

[Avnomke]

Yeah, this is why I like the idea of giving them completely different effects, because no matter what we do with sash/band, if they're basically the same effect, one will be better than the other.

Hence my proposal of making Focus Band give a damage cap instead of reducing damage taken by a pokemon, which is what Focus Sash can do (or maybe the other way around?).

 

[ZhengTann]

Frosty's on LoA, but the thread has been on for more than 7 days now, so might as well recap, then move.

There are three issues with Focus Sash and Focus Band:
1) They normally end up resulting in a smaller bonus then other defensive items (like Leftovers)
2) Focus Band is always worse than Focus Sash
3) They are both really really good on x4 weak mons.

I'd like to think that with Leftovers/Black Sludge now at +2 per action, Sash/Band would now be more preferable on mons with common 2x or even 4x weaknesses. Even so IMHO Frosty's point 3) is not really valid, as 4x weaknesses are crippling enough as they are (not without reason are Carracosta and Camerupt being the few common 4x weak mons in ASB). Some people agree that point 2) is definitely valid.

Dogfish: Sash and Band I agree with Frosty, that the best way to cconsider it would be to increase the range of viability - perhaps to 100% - 25%, and 75% - 0% for the respective items?
Frosty: (maybe 'til 30% hp and from 70%)

- I think Sash should maybe have the "multiscale" thing, where it's active as long as the holder was at above 50% hp at the beginning of the round (it's easier on refs too)
- a pokemon could take no more than 20% or so of their max health in one hit. It makes Band a useful choice when Sash exists, especially on pokemon that are generally crippled by 4x weaknesses

Given it all, I suppose the slate will not change by much really - Dogfish you'd say that 70/75 and 30/25 being the same difference right? Slate as follows:

What should be done with Focus Sash?
No changes
Focus Sash remains active while equipped Pokemon has above 30% HP
Focus Sash remains active if equipped Pokemon has above 50% HP at start of round

What should be done with Focus Band?
No changes
Focus Band is active when equipped Pokemon has below 70% HP
Equipped Pokemon takes no more than 20% maximum HP damage per hit (removing the BAP deduction effect)

If mods will unlock this thread then I'd be much obliged. Thank you.

 

[Avnomke]

Okay as of this post Focus Sash is now active above 30% of HP and Focus Band makes it impossible to do more than 20% damage.

Now, onto Big Root:

Big Root Draining Kiss has long been seen as ridiculous, healing 1.5x as much damage is dealt. There are a few proposals that have been bounced around earlier:

• Cap healing at 100%
• Lower the healing boost to 1.75x or 1.5x normal healing

Another idea of mine: Maybe giving a flat +50% damage healing from hp-regenerating moves could work? In addition, every proposal came with a reduction in en cost, either to a flat boost of +3 en or so or to 1.25x normal en cost.

Any other thoughts?

 

[ZhengTann]

Uh, just saying that I'd prefer capping Draining at 100% damage dealt, because uh, me being pedantic over stuff like "draining" and "conservation of energy" (How do you drain more HP than was lost?). Balance-wise, I think Big Root is broken because of, and only because of, Draining Kiss (+SpAtk Aromatisse dealing 11 damage against R3 SpDef opponent while healing itself for 16.5 is scary, not to mention now Gardevoir and Gallade learns it too). Unless there is an issue with Drain Punch and co. that I'm not aware of (please enlighten me if there is), I'd be leaning towards nerfing Big Root so that only Draining Kiss is affected.

 

[deadfox081]

I second capping Big Root healing at 100% of damage dealt. I was completely okay with the item before Draining Kiss

 

[Gerard]

Cap healing at 100% & making the energy increase a flat +3 please. Big Root might be bad with Draining Kiss but it sucks on everything else, Draining Punch, Giga Drain, Horn Leach, nothing actually used Big Root otherwise because of how much and energy sink that item is.

 

[Avnomke]

Alright then, with no other options being presented, I'm going to put this slate up.

How much should Big Root increase healing from health draining moves?
Doubled health gain, capped at 100%
1.5x health gain
+50% health gain
No change (doubled health gain)

How much should Big Root increase the energy costs of health draining moves?
+3 en cost
1.25x en cost
No change (1.5x en cost)

Any objections to the slate?