NU Steelix

[Punchshroom]

Just... Just use Gyro Ball. In issues a Pokemon who doesn't get hurt more by it is a very specific case and usually you can EQ them. Iron Head is nice for the no LO recoil, but it's a little lackluster and Heavy Slam is just... I hate Pokemon weight.
It's probably stupid but I would put AV in OO since it CAN work, it's just half assed.

For defensive Steelix, Gyro Ball is nice for the power, but Heavy Slam seems more appealing for the greater PP (relevant against Sub users like Uxie and Articuno), much better damage against Granbull, and doesn't miss out on any notable 2HKOes on Gyro Ball targets, which improves (or at least doesn't worsen) Steelix's consistency in checking threats. In most cases, if one is confused about weight, it's usually better to EQ an opponent anyway, though a list of Pokes hit harder by Heavy Slam than EQ, such as Kangaskhan and Sawk, would be useful (namely neutral Pokes of 80 kg / 176 lbs and below, refer to Bulbapedia coolking49).

Offensive LO Steelix can make use on non-LO recoil Iron Head or net more KOes with Gyro Ball than with Heavy Slam, so Heavy Slam doesn't have a place here.

AV Steelix is complete ass, mostly because of poor damage output, lack of any recovery, and inability to use support moves.

 

[Iura]

For defensive Steelix, Gyro Ball is nice for the power, but Heavy Slam seems more appealing for the greater PP (relevant against Sub users like Uxie and Articuno), much better damage against Granbull, and doesn't miss out on any notable 2HKOes on Gyro Ball targets, which improves (or at least doesn't worsen) Steelix's consistency in checking threats. In most cases, if one is confused about weight, it's usually better to EQ an opponent anyway, though a list of Pokes hit harder by Heavy Slam than EQ, such as Kangaskhan and Sawk, would be useful (namely neutral Pokes of 80 kg / 176 lbs and below, refer to Bulbapedia coolking49).

Offensive LO Steelix can make use on non-LO recoil Iron Head or net more KOes with Gyro Ball than with Heavy Slam, so Heavy Slam doesn't have a place here.

AV Steelix is complete ass, mostly because of poor damage output, lack of any recovery, and inability to use support moves.

I see your point.
So shouldn't it be slashed? I mean it's better to just slash it like that instead of arguing, just let them pick their own preference

Yeah AV was just a thought in mind for anyone who has shit SpD

 

[Punchshroom]

What I had in mind was something like this:

Special Wall
########
name: Special Wall
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Tail / Roar
move 4: Heavy Slam / Gyro Ball
ability: Sturdy
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Careful / Sassy

 

[ck49]

What I had in mind was something like this:

Special Wall
########
name: Special Wall
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Dragon Tail / Roar
move 4: Heavy Slam / Gyro Ball
ability: Sturdy
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Careful / Sassy

Are we going by the name Special Wall even though its clearly a physical wall? Other than that, I'm fine with those conclusions. Is that the final word of the QC team or is there going to be more discussion on the topic?

 

[boltsandbombers]

Are we going by the name Special Wall even though its clearly a physical wall? Other than that, I'm fine with those conclusions. Is that the final word of the QC team or is there going to be more discussion on the topic?

Even though by its stats steelix is a physical wall, it's probably being named special wall because of the fact that it's max hp max spdef.

 

[soulgazer]

Well from what I have seen, it's either Heavy Slam or Gyro Ball, so yea.

also:

Wall
########
name: Wall
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Roar / Dragon Tail
move 4: Heavy Slam / Gyro Ball
ability: Sturdy
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Careful / Sassy

Roar is better than Dragon Tail atm (Dragon Tail's only use is like Xatu). Oh and actually I would just name the set 'Wall' as it clearly walls stuff from both side.

 

[Blast]

Yeah I think QC more or less agreed on the above set coolking49

In addition iirc this was brought up before but that isn't the optimal set for offensive Steelix. Iron Head >>>>>> Gyro Ball, and Crunch > Rock Slide because hitting Rotom is really important. Also Fire Fang should be mentioned somewhere for Ferroseed

 

[Iura]

Yeah I think QC more or less agreed on the above set coolking49

In addition iirc this was brought up before but that isn't the optimal set for offensive Steelix. Iron Head >>>>>> Gyro Ball, and Crunch > Rock Slide because hitting Rotom is really important. Also Fire Fang should be mentioned somewhere for Ferroseed

Does Steelix really have trouble with Ferroseeds? I though Ferro can basically do 0 things to Steeix(other than Leech Seed)

 

[Punchshroom]

Does Steelix really have trouble with Ferroseeds? I though Ferro can basically do 0 things to Steeix(other than Leech Seed)

252+ Atk Life Orb Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 90-107 (30.82 - 36.64%) -- 66.26% chance to 3HKO

Steelix would be suffering Life Orb damage from Earthquake (it's that or Iron Barbs :P) alongside Ferroseed's Leech Seed damage, while Ferro can recover up by 15% after every turn; this does not include the use of Protect in the exchange. Steelix would be worn down incredibly fast. Really, Leech Seed is how Ferroseed gets past most opponents anyway.

 

[Raseri]

coolking49 are you still working on this? It hasnt been updated with Soulgazers suggestions. QC wants to get this one done soon!

 

[ck49]

coolking49 are you still working on this? It hasnt been updated with Soulgazers suggestions. QC wants to get this one done soon!

My bad, I've been caught up with work and this slipped my mind. I'll put the updates together tomorrow and we can get the ball rolling again.

 

[ck49]

alright, I think this is QC ready. If there's a change I was supposed to make but missed, let me know, since its been a while since I looked at this closely.
The updates I made today include changing the wall set and name to what was suggested earlier, making iron head the primary option on the attacker, and mentioning fire fang in other options.

 

[soulgazer]

name: Bulky Attacker
move 1: Iron Head
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Crunch / Rock Slide
move 4: Stealth Rock
ability: Sheer Force
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 HP / 252 Att / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Speed
nature: Brave

Sorry if I am making you change a set again coolking49, just felt that you might want to put the LO set in order and remove Dragon Tail since it will mostly be used for Stealth Rock anyway and 4 atk w/ dtail isnt rly good

change that and qc 1/3 :)

 

[Punchshroom]

The Wall set's Set Details and Usage Tips EV spread do not match the current set, so fix that up. You can also cut the max HP/100 SpD spread you mentioned in OO. Usage Tips can expand on Steelix's ability to check Mesprit and SubCM Uxie.

Remove Spiritomb mentions.
QC 2/3

 

[Ares]

When you have finished with the above changes please reply back and Ill look through it and give it the final check.

 

[ck49]

When you have finished with the above changes please reply back and Ill look through it and give it the final check.

Removed Spiritomb mention
editted details of set to match actual set.
editted OO to leave more generic mention of other possible EV spreads.
Removed Dtail from main attacking set.
Added a mention of uxie/mespirit.

 

[Ares]

Your Wall Set has the Name: wall twice, fix that.

Please format C&C to look like **Special Attackers**:
and then give two or three sentences mentioning relevant Pokemon to the category, seeing as C&C is a bit messy atm imma wait on the check, do that and let me know so I can stamp.

 

[ck49]

Your Wall Set has the Name: wall twice, fix that.

Please format C&C to look like **Special Attackers**:
and then give two or three sentences mentioning relevant Pokemon to the category, seeing as C&C is a bit messy atm imma wait on the check, do that and let me know so I can stamp.

Fixed the wall set name.
Added some examples to C&C and fixed the formatting (I think)

 

[Ares]

Looks good, in write up give C&C 2-3 sentences detailing a scenario with the check / counter and Steelix.

3/3

 

[Blast]

coolking49 are you still working on this? Montsegur gave you the third check a while ago.

Also since Gyro Ball isn't on offensive Steelix, it should be using 31 Spe IVs + Adamant.

 

[tehy]

You should mention that rock slide's also for rotom-fan (on the offensive set

If that's not much of a concern consider replacing it with Thunder Fang, which nails all the water/flying types and gives you some extra power vs. Regular water types too, while still doing similar things to flying types.

Btw thunder fang is at least oo worthy for this

 

[Punchshroom]

You should mention that rock slide's also for rotom-fan (on the offensive set

If that's not much of a concern consider replacing it with Thunder Fang, which nails all the water/flying types and gives you some extra power vs. Regular water types too, while still doing similar things to flying types.

Btw thunder fang is at least oo worthy for this

Well as far as secondary attacks go, Rock Slide and Thunder Fang function extremely similiarly, with neither particularly outperforming the other but don't have that much advantages over the STAB moves in the first place.

I mean Thunder Fang can work as well as Rock Slide on Steelix, but only at best as it is, for the most part, pretty outclassed: pretty much the only advantage I see Thunder Fang over Rock Slide is that it hits Pelipper; Rock Slide or Steelix's STABs covers every other Thunder Fang target just fine, and Rock Slide at the very least retains coverage against Rotom. I can see this going in OO simply to talk about how little use it serves over LO Steelix's other moves.

 

[tehy]

Well as far as secondary attacks go, Rock Slide and Thunder Fang function extremely similiarly, with neither particularly outperforming the other but don't have that much advantages over the STAB moves in the first place.

I mean Thunder Fang can work as well as Rock Slide on Steelix, but only at best as it is, for the most part, pretty outclassed: pretty much the only advantage I see Thunder Fang over Rock Slide is that it hits Pelipper; Rock Slide or Steelix's STABs covers every other Thunder Fang target just fine, and Rock Slide at the very least retains coverage against Rotom. I can see this going in OO simply to talk about how little use it serves over LO Steelix's other moves.

You might be right that the twain are just OO anyhow, that said

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom: 112-133 (46.4 - 55.1%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
(112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 118, 120, 121, 122, 123, 125, 126, 127, 129, 130, 133)

Rock Slide isn't that helpful here, maybe against bulky rotom, mostly rock slide is just rotom-s.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 307-361 (91.9 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(307, 309, 312, 317, 320, 325, 328, 330, 335, 338, 343, 346, 348, 354, 356, 361)

Meh, considering it's a fogger and you're a rocker sr is nowhere near guaranteed in a 1v1 matchup, so 100% kill is nice.


252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Thunder Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 291-343 (90 - 106.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(291, 291, 296, 302, 302, 307, 312, 312, 317, 322, 322, 328, 333, 333, 338, 343)

The crown jewel. Ofc you have to predict twice or manage rocks but still very nice.

So, maybe the whole thing's oo, that said thunder fang is way better than Rock Slide, basically getting most of the sane stuff while rekting a counter, maybe lix's hardest overall counter.

 

[Punchshroom]

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom: 103-121 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The coverage move only really serves to allow Steelix to hit Ground + Steel resists, but each coverage move covers only one specific target: Crunch for Rotom, Rock Slide for Rotom-S, and Thunder Fang for Pelipper. Amongst these targets, Rock Slide offers the best neutral coverage on all of these threats, while Thunder Fang offers the overall worst. Thunder Fang is only worth a look if your team really struggles with Pelipper instead of Rotom, but Pelipper is rarer than Rotom which makes Thunder Fang less noteworthy.

Besides, the coverage move is listed in order of relevant Steelix switch-ins: while Pelipper is the best hard counter, bulky Rotom is by far the most relevant of the aforementioned Steelix responses, so Crunch is listed first.

 

[tehy]

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom: 103-121 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 28.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The coverage move only really serves to allow Steelix to hit Ground + Steel resists, but each coverage move covers only one specific target: Crunch for Rotom, Rock Slide for Rotom-S, and Thunder Fang for Pelipper. Amongst these targets, Rock Slide offers the best neutral coverage on all of these threats, while Thunder Fang offers the overall worst. Thunder Fang is only worth a look if your team really struggles with Pelipper instead of Rotom, but Pelipper is rarer than Rotom which makes Thunder Fang less noteworthy.

Besides, the coverage move is listed in order of relevant Steelix switch-ins: while Pelipper is the best hard counter, bulky Rotom is by far the most relevant of the aforementioned Steelix responses, so Crunch is listed first.

I don't want to derail shit, so i'd prefer to end this here (you can answer once more as well, or feel free to PM me)

I'm not really interested in crunch, like i said that second slash on LO lix might just be OO material, if so though, thunder fang is still better than rock slide you and the rest of qc can decide what that means.

Well, to be honest if thunder fang were put in OO i might argue against that, but i'm not doing so currently.

To be brief; although Rock Slide is getting better neutral coverage, it's not that much stronger than Iron Head (25% in relevant cases)

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom: 130-153 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
(130, 131, 133, 134, 136, 138, 139, 140, 142, 143, 146, 147, 148, 149, 151, 153)

The neutral coverage in this and a few other cases (rotom-f) is helpful and i'll admit it, as is its performance against rotom-s.

But my closing argument is this: that neutral coverage and SE hit on rotom-s just isn't as valuable as the ability to potentially muscle past your best counter.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Thunder Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 291-343 (90 - 106.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(291, 291, 296, 302, 302, 307, 312, 312, 317, 322, 322, 328, 333, 333, 338, 343)