Examples and Viability Ranking of Team Types

[Corporal Levi]

[12:36] +Apt-get: why is stall S rank
[12:36] Corporal Levi: because nobody has given any reasons as to why it should be otherwise
[12:36] +Apt-get: difficult to use
[12:36] +Apt-get: very few good stalls
[12:37] +Apt-get: has troubles with a lot of team archetypes like HO and voltturn
[12:37] Corporal Levi: can you write this in a post so other people can see please
[12:37] +Apt-get: too lazy to do so
[12:37] Corporal Levi: :(
[12:40] +Apt-get: post for me pls
So yea, any thoughts on moving stall down

Also, I'm agreeing with tspikes stall being moved up because tspikes is actually a pretty underrated hazard to cripple some really important Pokemon, and grounded Poison-types can usually be dealt with through Gothita support, even if this does limit versatility by basically forcing the usage of Gothita and Trubbish.

 

[The Avalanches]

Nominating DragMag for D. Really fun for whaling on lower ladder, but hard to pull off, most dragons suck, inherently ground-weak.

 

[Star]

tfw i am mentioned so many times

 

[Delver]

Since when is stall viable in LC?

 

[Yagura]

Since when is stall viable in LC?

I'm wondering if you even play the meta or at least tried or battled Stall teams.

Yes stall is harder to use with Knock Off being too common but that doesn't make stall unviable as no experienced player will let more than one or even two Pokémon get knocked off and even then there are Pokémon with Sticky Hold like Trubbish and Shellos that can fit really well in stall team. The fact that any Pokémon in the meta can run Eviolite which boosts its defenses or Berry Juice to heal back to almost 100% if the Pokémon doesn't have a way of recovery; there are Pokémon with Regenerator, Porygon, Spritzee and more. The only drawback about it is that it needs the player to be experienced and have a really decent knowledge about the threats in the metagame and if you got the experience you can have some success with it (see user Artemisa).

So please don't just base your opinions on theory if you never tried something out, you'll be wrong most of the times.

 

[Delver]

I'm wondering if you even play the meta or at least tried or battled Stall teams.

Yes stall is harder to use with Knock Off being too common but that doesn't make stall unviable as no experienced player will let more than one or even two Pokémon get knocked off and even then there are Pokémon with Sticky Hold like Trubbish and Shellos that can fit really well in stall team. The fact that any Pokémon in the meta can run Eviolite which boosts its defenses or Berry Juice to heal back to almost 100% if the Pokémon doesn't have a way of recovery; there are Pokémon with Regenerator, Porygon, Spritzee and more. The only drawback about it is that it needs the player to be experienced and have a really decent knowledge about the threats in the metagame and if you got the experience you can have some success with it (see user Artemisa).

So please don't just base your opinions on theory if you never tried something out, you'll be wrong most of the times.

I mean you right, i havent played the meta, thats why I asked the question. As a follow up:

since when is shellos good? What the fuck happened when i was gone? Every tool you just listed is also good on balanced and to a lesser extent HO team. What you're describing doesnt even sound like stall, it sounds like a balanced team that uses bad mons as gimmick counters / checks to knockoff and offensive mons.

 

[Yagura]

since when is shellos good?What the fuck happened when i was gone?

Having a 76/48/62 bulk, access to a reliable recovery, Scald to spread burns, Earth Power, and heck even Stockpile makes Shellos kind of viable and allows it to benefit from Sticky Hold, I didn't say it's good I just gave an example of some viable Sticky Hold Pokémon that people can use if they want a way to deal with Knock Off. In my sincere opinion both Shellos, and Trubbish to a lesser extent are momentum killers and can be easy setup fodders, people aren't forced to use them as they will, like I said in my previous post, let two Pokémon max get Knocked Off.

Every tool you just listed is also good on balanced and to a lesser extent HO team. What you're describing doesnt even sound like stall, it sounds like a balanced team that uses bad mons as gimmick counters / checks to knockoff and offensive mons.

I don't know why you can't use a stallish Pokémon in different playstyles, let's take Foongus for example it's a Pokémon that can be used in HO teams as a pivot, balanced teams, and even stall teams built around a Regenerator core. And Stall teams in LC do seem like balanced teams as stall can't rely on stally Pokémon to do its job, sometimes you're forced to run stuff like Timburr to deal with Pawniard that can easily set up a SD on one of your Pokémon.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

stall is bleh

I've argued with Corporal Levi about this many a time and i still feel this stands true. Kaleidoscope is a Semi-Stall team. Semi-Stall should be S-rank, not stall. I feel like there is a big enough difference between stall and semi-stall to differentiate the ranks of the two, and the playstyles of both. Semi-Stall is definitively the superior playstyle, as there aren't very many defensive win conditions in LC that work well at all. I'll probably get hate for it, but Pokemon Online's guide puts the difference best (keep in mind this wasn't made for lc but the same standards do apply):

Semi-Stall: These kind of teams are usually a more bulky form of balanced, bordering on stall, but with a last minute sweeper. They commonly consist of 1-2 physical walls, a special wall (namely Blissey, Tyranitar, etc.) and then Pokemon to lay down numerous entry hazards, and then near the end, their final team member is revealed when the opponent's team has no counters left for it.

Stall: The slowest, and arguably most reliable form of playing that involves laying down multiple entry hazards (Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes), and then waiting for your opponent to die. Usually functions around walls, pseudo hazers (Whirlwind, Roar), and resistances, in order to be able to take hits from all kinds while waiting for your opponent's Pokemon to faint.

The reason I dislike stall so much compared to semi-stall is the lack of any offensive presence at all. For example, Kaleidoscope was built around weakening an opposing team enough to the point where Swords Dance Pawniard could sweep. Hippo and Spritzee act as physical walls, Mienfoo acts as a pivot, Ferroseed is a hazard setter, vullaby is a hazard remover, and SD Pawniard sweeps. Semi-Stall teams eventually get to a point where they can be played offensively and doesn't rely purely on bulk to tank hits all day. Stall, on the other hand, normally has no way to be played offensively and is based purely on bulk, in which knock off's omnipotence subtracts from the overall value of the team. I dislike the term "knock off absorber" because you generally wouldn't switch a mienfoo or a trubbish in on an abra, regardless of if it had knock off or not. so I guess i'll start this by saying:

Do Semi-Stall and Stall differ enough to the point where they deserve different ranks?
What ranks should these playstyles be respectively if so?
If not, should Stall be lowered or kept at s-rank?

 

[Delver]

I'm pretty sure i did the math on this a while ago. Stall as glass described it isnt viable in LC because of a mixture of everything having the tools to deal with it (knock off yay) and the truncation of decimals. Ignoring the fact that weather is not trash, 8% every turn is a kill in roughly 13 turns on it own, because well 8%x13=104%. that's excluding entry hazards obviously. In LC , average HP is 19-21, with a few fatter mons over that, in the 22-25 range. 8% of 20 is 1.6 which truncates to 1. you deal 1 damage every turn with weather. that translates to a 20 turn kill Its signficantly shorteer on a 25hp mon, because 8% of 25 is 2. thats 13 turns to kill with just weather. Factoring in hazards decreases that kill count a lot yes, but assuming 4 turns dedicated to hazard set ups with Rocks an spikes: you can kill a grounded enemy with 3 switches. Possible? totally with phazers and shit/ Viable? I dont think so. Just punch him in the nuts. Residual damage is not reliable in LC Because Defog / rapid spin and the percent damage being over all very low on the mons.

 

[Rowan]

for me, stall in LC focuses on 'not losing' rather than winning. To clarify, this means having 6 walls/bulky pivots in a team that just don't die until tiny amounts of damage eventually wear down the opposing team. For example, a team consisting of Hippopotas/Spritzee/Ferroseed/Vullaby/Chinchou/Mienfoo is a team that just pivots about, uses Spritzee's wishes to keep Ferro and Chinch healthy, and recovers health where possible until the opposing team finally gets worn down from hazard damage, sandstorm, and also the Pokemon's attacking moves. I don't feel like 'residual damage' in LC always just has to mean weather/hazards. Weak attacks like mienfoo's u-turn, hippo's EQ, vullaby's Knock off, spritzee's moonblast all add up eventually. example replay here; http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-161155556

 

[absdaddy]

just a nitpick, i'd put proper zig team there effectively kicking it up one spot
and im not even talking about my team, it just hurts eyes..

 

[Mister Magnus]

Requesting Web offense for at least A , the pressure of a HO web is absolutely crazy and if you can press to a point that your opponent have nothing to do,also Surskit have not that bad at all as a offense presence, and can also settup Rain dance what can be used a long with Web, also volturn can be used with Web what keep its pressure what to me feat on at least A

These team types are extremely strong. They are reliable and have a good match-up against most playstyles, although they may still suffer from minor flaws.

I think the lack of a good setter is a minor flaw, and it also carries a great matchup vs the dominant volturns what make it to be amazing, and really dominant.


ggggd grab to rank 1 with sticky webs even not been to experienced in LC, what make it an easy playstyle to play before you know how to build one, I do love to see it been debated

 

[RZL]

Yah, I agree with webs to A Rank as it is easy for newcomers to use and very pressure crazy. Sticky Webs are comfortable and easy to wear.

 

[Corporal Levi]

swebs -> A
I think we should figure out how we're going to define stall in this thread before I move it around. If anybody has any more high quality teams they're willing to share I'd be happy to include them

 

[Mister Magnus]

http://pastebin.com/RMRQsREq also post for Stickywebs my EleBANnelby squad, its show exactly how webs are look like on Post missy Corporal Levi

 

[Pancham]

Honestly, Stall does not need passive damage to be considered stall; Non-passive stall exists, and it is still quite effective. Stall is really a defensive team that has checks to the popular threats in a given metagame. Sure, you can use passive damage while using stall; however, this is not a requirement, nor should it be a requirement in the definition of stall. This is why I really dislike the definitions given by GlassGlaceon. EDIT: Oh, wait, I agree with Glass on that Semistall and Stall are different enough so that they should be established in different tier rankings, tho. Semistall for S and flat out stall, with hazards, with the rest of the other Stall archetypes in B imo tbh ha.

Also, Sand Offense should be in B tbh. Brb crying atm ;_;

 

[Sken]

Here you are an example of Hyper Offense (w/ hazards). Some of you maybe know it. X)

Hide

DESTRUCTION (Pineco) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 76 SpD / 236 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin

Aerial Ace (Fletchling) (M)
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 16 Def / 116 SpA / 180 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
- Tailwind
- Overheat

Waterfall (Chinchou) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
Level: 5
EVs: 60 Def / 228 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Volt Switch

Dark Pulse (Pawniard) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Brick Break

Ice Punch (Gastly) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Def / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball
- Destiny Bond
- Sludge Bomb

Focus Blast (Mienfoo) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Feint
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- U-turn

 

[Corporal Levi]

I'm accepting ORAS teams now; some of these teams may need updating or outright replacements by now. Keep in mind that I'm looking for very strong and / or well-known teams that clearly fit in a specific category in an attempt to demonstrate the epitome of each archetype.

For the record, I do not believe that this thread conflicts with any sample teams threads because the goal of this thread is to act as a resource by ranking team archetypes and giving top quality examples of them that may be somewhat difficult to pick up initially, as opposed to sample teams threads, which aim to provide easy to understand and use teams for those looking to begin playing LC.

 

[tazz]

I'd like to nominate bulky balance to A, it's shown itself to be a very strong playstyle.

The main thing about this thread that needs to be fixed is having current, excellent teams. Maybe ask users that are known to have excellent teams of that playstyle If they can be used. The glaring ones I've seen are zig, baton pass and webs.

 

[Mister Magnus]

I'm accepting ORAS teams now; some of these teams may need updating or outright replacements by now. Keep in mind that I'm looking for very strong and / or well-known teams that clearly fit in a specific category in an attempt to demonstrate the epitome of each archetype.

For the record, I do not believe that this thread conflicts with any sample teams threads because the goal of this thread is to act as a resource by ranking team archetypes and giving top quality examples of them that may be somewhat difficult to pick up initially, as opposed to sample teams threads, which aim to provide easy to understand and use teams for those looking to begin playing LC.

I also posted the Bannelby squad that is the most famous sticky web on existence, why didnt you add this lol? as a ton of dudes used this team to get reqs on LC suspect ladder

 

[Corporal Levi]

Actually, I haven't added anything at all since like last year; the idea here is for people to submit teams.

 

[infamy]

Maybe because webs are easy as fuck to use on ladder but versus actual players who aren't complete and utter shit it's a fairly bad archetype lol

Also Corporal Levi I'll post my BP lord squad if you want.

 

[tazz]

On phone can't quote right now

Infamy, then how do you explain ggggd's success in the lc Swiss tournament? Considering he went undefeated with one team, I'd say its a pretty good playstyle lmao

 

[kingmidas]

On phone can't quote right now

Infamy, then how do you explain ggggd's success in the lc Swiss tournament? Considering he went undefeated with one team, I'd say its a pretty good playstyle lmao

After like 4 rounds people stopped giving a fuck, not to mention thats before sticky webs was taken seriously. It was seen once in splc and lost.

 

[infamy]

how do you explain all the brazilians who only use webs doing awful in splc

webs have a lot of extremely viable checks right now, like snivy, gastly, fletch, and obviously pawn. they're massively overrated and if people could stop acting like ladder achievement was the end all be all of skill in pokemon, that'd be great.