np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[RowDog]

Ranger Mike the difference between Zygarde and other setup up sweepers is that it is much harder to stop it from setting up and sweeping. This is greatly due to a great tier with phazing, so that it itself can not be phazed. Defensive teams fail to be able to status it before it sets up a sub, and can't phaze it before it phazes you. Offensive teams can still take a bit of a hit from Zygarde even if it is unboosted, granted it hits the right Pokemon, and its bulk with Substitute can make it hard to revenge. This is why Zygarde can get to +3 so much easier than something as frail as Lucario, because Zygarde gives itself a multitude of more setup opportunities.

That being said, I still haven't used it or seen it during the retest yet. Togetic is still a legit mon in the tier which shits all over Zygarde. T-Spikes as previously mentioned are good and Infiltrator mons help. Or alternatively we could just chuck an Air Balloon on any random Fairy, don't let the balloon pop and call it a day :^)
(Though my guess is there will be some set diversity)

 

[aim]

While the sub coil set is imo the most scary set and the fact that togekiss just got banned, i still feel zygarde is not ban worry. It doesn't get a free set up vs standard offense: nidoqueen/blastoise/hydreigon/zam etc etc and the dd set is underwhelming at best, not being able to revnge faster scarfers with espeed sucks. The sub coil set also fails to beat florges/aromatisse (dominant mons on stall)...something i feel is holding it back. Don't get me wrong, it is definitely a threat that can set up on a plethora of mons such as gligar, alomolola etc etc...i just feel that at this point in the meta, we can definitely manage the mon. Looking forward to playtesting it.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Sorry for sounding extremely irrelevant, but does Zygarde get Stealth Rock in ORAs?

 

[aim]

Sorry for sounding extremely irrelevant, but does Zygarde get Stealth Rock in ORAs?

nah

 

[nv]

Ok from what I have seen so far in terms of Zygarde, I can venture to say there is a decent sized chance it'll stay for UU. A lot has changed, meta wise, since it was here last. We have faster Dragons in Haxorus and Hydreigon who can OHKO with their Dragon- STAB. We have defensive/support Fairies, such as Florges, Aromatisse, and Whimsicott who can take a hit and proceed to hit hard back with their own STAB move (Moonblast). The Nidos are decent checks to SubCoil sets as it doesn't tend to run Speed on the SubCoil set. Cloyster is also a decent check to the SubCoil set as it can kill Zygarde even with Sub up, as an unboosted Icicle Spear can break Sub and proceed to OHKO Zygarde, even after 1 Coil. Defensive Mega-Amphy also makes a great check although it is weak to both STABs it hits hard enough to weaken Zygarde to be revenge killed.

Calcs For DD Set

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 432-510 (120.6 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 366-432 (102.2 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 236-278 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 212-252 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 174-206 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 299-354 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calcs For SubCoil Set

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 380-447 (93.3 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 374-442 (91.8 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. +1 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 420-500 (103.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
8 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 212-252 (52 - 61.9%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

For what it's worth, I think Zygarde main threatening set is SubCoil and it should be because it makes Zygarde very bulky, all the while being able to "outphaze" other phazers as it has a naturally higher base Speed than most phazers. I think it could stay UU, but the combination of Coil, Sub, a phazing move, and being able to outpace other phazers, can possibly be a problem for the tier (RIP Togekiss, i.e. its best counter, but you were broken too so w/e, lol)

 

[silenced]

Damn, disappointing Togekiss just failed to get over the line (cry me a river that the best S and A ranked mons are crapped upon, I honestly cannot believe I read that)

As for Zygarde, the only thing that stops me saying that this should be able to stay UU is that ORAS has gifted it iron tail from the move tutors. While normally a garbage coverage move, coil and the ability to smack faeries hard who would otherwise be strong checks and the only viable stop to d-tail shuffling is not good for stall's perspective. I guess recovery and regenerator mons do force irritating mind games (much harder to kill from phasing when pokemon levitate or just keep healing off D-tail damage) but its still a considerable issue.

That being said, the key to whether zygarde is broken in UU is how compromised a pokemon's movepool is in order to add an ice, fairy or dragon coverage move to it. Ice is probably the easiest of the 3 to add given how good bulky waters fare, but still difficult for stall who normally does not have the move slot for it on their bulky water. Fairy is the best option due to coverage on key types, but is somewhat limited in its distribution at present. As for dragon, its not really a coverage move, but will hurt.

I'm still keen to see a defensive threat make it back from BL (Very happy to hear toge will get retested), and one thing that gives me hope is that zygarde would be a serious deterrent to fire spam given its great bulk and typing. The lack of reliable recovery also hurts its ability to wall throughout the match, so its not like it can keep it up all game either, without significant support.

I'd be fine with it UU on the condition stall has viable options to deal with it bearing in mind the incoming addition of iron tail. Other playstyles have been explained by others as to why they do not have such a problem with it.

Incidentally, I wonder if anything remaining will be bothered to be retested? I cannot see anything remaining that isn't obviously broken left (scolipede and the abilities are badly broken under support clause alone, and diggersby is just something slower builds can do without, even moreso that togekiss)

 

[Patrick1088]

My initial thoughts on Zygarde...

1. Its DD set is outclassed by Haxorus (as mentioned before).Haxorus mold breaker lets it beat levitating mons like Bronzong which would normally beat hax. So, Bronzong and Togetic are counters (not so viable so thats not good so far).
2. SubCoil is its most dangerous set. Blisseys Seismic toss cant break its subs and it can set up on Darmanitan, Entei, Arcanine, Alomomla, which are all fairly common.
3. Infiltrator Noivern is a check. Cloyster is a check.
4. Whimsicott is probably the best legitamate counter to zygarde being immune to dtail, resisting eq, encore to lock into sub or coil while it can smack around with moonblasts.
5. Its speed is very crucial too since it outpaces every phazer and it cant be reliably phazed out and it resists clear smog, making Haze the only reliable way to nullify any.accumulate. boosts.

I like Zygarde a lot, but im not too sure on this one. Its ability to hit hard and tank hits might be too much for UU. But, its weakness to Ice, Fairy and Dragon without the mold breaker ability that Hax can use may leave it in UU.

Also, i dont think its fair to mention ORAS moves yet in Iron Tail. We cant speculate on potential changes so far. Otherwise, we could say Mega steelix wouodve destroyed Togekiss (not a real statement, just an example). We can only focus on UU meta as it is now, not how it will be a month from now.

 

[Mazz]

And here I thought Togekiss staying UU was the only way Zygarde would end up staying.

My initial thoughts on Zygarde suggest it's actually a very underwhelming Pokemon. I've tried the standard DD set, SubDD, and SubCoil, and each of them have huge flaws that really prevents Zygarde from being a monster in this modern UU. The DD set, despite having the best coverage, is vulnerable to status and can't really set up on anything, the SubDD and SubCoil sets don't have enough coverage to get past enough threats, and both can really only set up against Stall / bulky Pokemon.

Zygarde has come home to a much stronger, bulkier, and complete metagame than when before it was banned. I imagine it'll be hard-pressed to succeed to the degree it used to, and really don't see why it can't stay in UU.

 

[Meru]

Whimsicott @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Energy Ball
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- U-turn

This right here. I used this against my Slam match in Kratos, and I really like having a Grass-type that can actually pivot out on predicted switch-ins via U-turn. Whimsicott has been steadily rising in the metagame lately, and with Zygarde around, it's only even better. Its unique typing lets it check Fighting-, Ground-, Dragon-, Electric-, Dark-, Grass- and Water-type attacks, all of which are disgustingly common in this meta. Fire-types are a pain but they have been on the decline ever since the departure of Victini. This is the one Whimsicott set that can forgo Prankster, but with Zygarde around, Infiltrator has a massive boon, as even SubCoil can't get a clean set up. It also takes +1 LO Extremespeed, so even DD isn't strong enough to overcome it. You can also run Modest, but I do like that extra Speed, as the 115 Speed tier has way too many competitiors just itching to creep on Whimsicott.

Overall, I've found Zygarde pretty underwhelming, but a very unique addition to the tier. Dragon Dance sets are similar to Haxorus in that they hate how good Scarfers are, while SubCoil is probably the best set, but is hardly raping and pillaging the tier. I'm not completely decided yet, but I don't see a single aspect of Zygarde that deserves sending it back to BL. Maybe someone will make a good enough team and prove me wrong?

 

[Nas]

My experience with snake thus far have me leaning towards UU, though I believe it is still a very potent threat in the meta. DD Zygarde has the ability to run slight variations in its set that can have a dramatic effect on the effectiveness of whatever check/counter your team is running. Some examples include Substitute, Lum, Haban, and LO w/ Extremespeed to pick off weakened Scarf users. (Something Haxorus very dearly wishes it could do) It's exceptional bulk lets it pull most of these off, and makes it much harder to check which is why I actually think it is a superior DD user than Haxorus. All that being said, it doesn't have the immediate power necessary to blow by walls without accumulating multiple boosts first, which leads me to think it's actually quite balanced.

The Coil set is what I initially thought would be Zygarde's most broken set, but it seems to have lost a lot of its effectiveness with all the meta changes that have occurred since it was last UU. In my first 20 or so battles, I believe I only managed to set up 2 or 3 times, and they were against defensive teams. Against standard bulky offense and offense, the setup opportunities just aren't there. I wouldn't go so far as to call it underwhelming, but at the moment nothing about Zygarde strikes me as broken. If anything, it's a welcome addition to the tier.

 

[Patrick1088]

Zygarde has been doing OK for me. If he can set up more than one coil boost, then hes going to be a beast take down barring infiltrator noivern and whimsicott. But, i think its very vulnerable to status, RK when not behind a sub. Offensive Whimsicott is both its greatest check and ally. I matched Zygarde with LO Whimsi with memento support, essentially giving it a +2/2 to its defenses.

On paper its really good, but in practice its a good poke, but 100% not spammable like Victini, Togekiss and Daunt were mindless clicking will give you the edge. It does require skill and team support to really shine. I think UU may keep this snake around! :-)

Very interesting to.play with though. If Victini were in the tier still, i think Zygarde wouldve been more threatening, but like others have said before, zygarde has come home to a bulkier more.offensive meta.

 

[Meru]

I think Patrick actually brings up a good point. When it was last here, Zygarde had the perfect stat distribution and typing to really punish Victini, which was what might've pushed it over the edge before. I can't say for sure, since I wasn't around for that test, but now that the metagame doesn't revolve around CB V-Create, Zygarde's effectiveness has dwindled to the point where it makes it a very welcome member of the tier, being just weak enough and just slow enough to not centralize the tier around its DD set. This is in contrast to Volcarona and Salamence, both of which were too strong and too fast to handle at +1.

 

[Sleepless]

This is, yet, just a theorymon but Granbull, with a tweak in it's moveset, can put a stop to Coil Zygarde.
Granbull has acess to Roar, which allows him to "outspeed" Zygarde phasing by being immune to Dtail.
Even if Zygarde got both a Coil up and a sub as Granbull switches in and intimidates, Granbull doesn't need to attack
as the snake keep pushing it's defenses higher but just Roar away and take not great damage from Eq :
0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 93-111 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Sam]

I've been using the SubCoil set with Max HP, Max SpD, and EQ and Dtail. A lot of people forget just how bulky this thing is.

0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 70-84 (16.6 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's incredibly easy to get a sub, and with hazard support it can single handedly win matches. Only problem I've really been having is finding the right partners for it, as it doesn't have amazing synergy with any spike setters.

 

[cacturne]

I've been using the SubCoil set with Max HP, Max SpD, and EQ and Dtail. A lot of people forget just how bulky this thing is.

0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 70-84 (16.6 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's incredibly easy to get a sub, and with hazard support it can single handedly win matches. Only problem I've really been having is finding the right partners for it, as it doesn't have amazing synergy with any spike setters.

Though the type synergy is nothing special rose absorbs tspikes and sets up hazards for zygarde as well so thats the mon i usually end up pairing it with

 

[Schpoonman]

Pair these two up with a Steel-type (which could incidentally set Rocks) and you're taking care of the Dragon and Ice vulnerability. Zygarde is so GD bulky that he can take Earthquakes and Earth Powers aimed at the other two while absorbing Fire-type attacks (no Will-O-Wisp, though). Meanwhile, in case someone gets cheeky with Infiltrator Crobat and Toxic, Roserade and the Steel-type block that.

I've just contributed to a massive AIDS of a core, haven't I? WELP, TIME TO START USING IT.

 

[xMarth]

Forretress has perfect type synergy with Zygarde and can lay Spikes. Also I've figured out a faster SubCoil spread if anyone would like to use it.
192 HP / 128 SpD / 188 +Spe

4 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 192 HP / 128 SpD Zygarde: 87-103 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO

The Substitute should still survive a very large percentage of the time on any uninvested bulky waters. Speed allows it to outpace Adamant base 100s like Entei. Also the Speed lets it act as a great Adamant Lucario check.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 188-222 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO

Still on the fence whether its broken or not but it certainly has that potential. I think it needs more time to see how the metagame will develop around it and whether that development is healthy or not.

 

[dingbat]

Ugh zygarde .-.

I definitely agree with the statement that the current meta is much more prepared for Zygarde, because as Mazz stated, this metagame has really developed into a more complete one with clearly established threats that can take on Zygarde; however in practice, I'm not 100% convinced that it's balanced in this metagame yet. Personally, I added Jirachi, Chesnaught, and Tentacruel around in order to maximize hazard output while offering the best defensive synergy possible (Sableye and Florges occupied the last 2 spots), and although I'm rather weak against stuff like BandManitan, I've been getting a consistent amount of kills from Zygarde, even if that means having a really cancerous team lol.

 

[Patrick1088]

Ugh zygarde .-.

I definitely agree with the statement that the current meta is much more prepared for Zygarde, because as Mazz stated, this metagame has really developed into a more complete one with clearly established threats that can take on Zygarde; however in practice, I'm not 100% convinced that it's balanced in this metagame yet. Personally, I added Jirachi, Chesnaught, and Tentacruel around in order to maximize hazard output while offering the best defensive synergy possible (Sableye and Florges occupied the last 2 spots), and although I'm rather weak against stuff like BandManitan, I've been getting a consistent amount of kills from Zygarde, even if that means having a really cancerous team lol.

So, whats the brokenness about Zygarde based on your statement? Is it the bulk, subcoil set, both? Obviously its not dtail and earthquake. In all fairness, its bulk is pretty similar to Hippowdon (23 less sp def, but it is verysimilar). Its dragon typing gives it good neutralities to water and grass, but i wouldnt keep Zy in on say Mega Stoise). Its prone to Knock Off
with no form of recovery outside of lefties.

Not trying to argue, but get a sense of your post. You have a team almost entirely dedicated to a SubCoil Set and youre suprised it does its job? If you take out the team support, would youbsay its spammable like Victini or Raptor or guaranteed to do its job every time?

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

I've been kinda UU ladder-inept recently (I haven't even faced a Zygarde yet! Hahaha!) and just outta curiosity I'd like to know what are the main methods some people use to deal with it in this meta? Back months ago when it was last in UU, I often had Ice Beam Swampert (Viva la DPP OU) and Toxic Crobat (Infiltrator Toxic = Slow death, Substitute or not) and while I know this isn't the most effective thing ever I still would like to see what some of you other guys tend to use, just so I don't have to get laughed at when I bring forth the Ice Fang Hippowdon at somebody. ._.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

So I haven't really laddered a terrible amount with Zygarde, but he doesn't seem that terrible. Mind you - I'm running DD set, and haven't run into the Coil Zyg(or any others for that matter), so I'm not terribly in the know concerning it.

Really, now that we have so many other strong dragons in the tier, he just doesn't seem that imposing to me. Biggest thing he brings to the table is his bulk (which I assume is why SubCoil was seen as such an issue), plus the STAB Earthquake is pretty nice. Otherwise, it seems like Haxorus pretty much does everything he can do, but better. The lack of Dragon Claw or even Rush(considering he has Coil for accuracy) kind of bugs me, as it forces you to go for Outrage for offensive STAB.

As for an opinion on being being UU or BL, I'll leave that to capable people.

 

[dodmen]

OK most of this post is dedicated to its DD set.

People keep saying that Zygarde's DD set is outclassed by Haxorus, but I don't think that's the case at all. In this metagame, bulk is everything and Zygarde has a lot more of it than Haxorus, so Zygarde can set up in a LOT more situations. Sure Haxorus is marginally faster and definitely more powerful, but how is it gonna set up anywhere vs. offense when it's 2HKOd by Scarf Darmanitan? And it's infinitely easier to revenge kill Haxorus than it is Zygarde?

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 144-170 (49.1 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 112-132 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 271-319 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 211-249 (59.1 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's an enormous difference. And in addition, Zygarde has that nice near-perfect dual STAB. Haxorus has Mold Breaker? That literally only helps against Rotom-Heat (KOd or set up on by both dragons anyway) and Bronzong (,,,). Zygarde also has Extremespeed to pick off weakened scarfers and faster things, and it has access to Stone Edge/Rock Slide to kill flying things (Crobat, Togetic) without locking itself into Outrage.

But again, the most important thing is that Zygarde has so much more bulk than Haxorus, so it's able to 1) set up much much easier and 2) be much more difficult to revenge kill. This makes Zygarde's DD set a lot more effective and threatening against offense.

TL;DR: Haxorus's DD set does NOT outclass Zygarde's DD set because Zygarde's is much more effective against offense.

In regards to its SubCoil set, it does absolutely destroy most balance and stall still, but I agree with Meru and etc in that the metagame has adjusted to make it harder to set up and easier to deal with.

 

[Patrick1088]

I've been kinda UU ladder-inept recently (I haven't even faced a Zygarde yet! Hahaha!) and just outta curiosity I'd like to know what are the main methods some people use to deal with it in this meta? Back months ago when it was last in UU, I often had Ice Beam Swampert (Viva la DPP OU) and Toxic Crobat (Infiltrator Toxic = Slow death, Substitute or not) and while I know this isn't the most effective thing ever I still would like to see what some of you other guys tend to use, just so I don't have to get laughed at when I bring forth the Ice Fang Hippowdon at somebody. ._.

Eh ive been trying to do well with Zy and have hit a wall lately. Whimsicott is a pain whether its the prankster set with encore or infiltrator specs is just bleh. Im seeing people speed creep Zy with Arcanine and tentacruel to fire off a WoW or Scald/knock off/toxic before it subs. Other pokes that deserve an honorable mention are cloyster (i run suicune with Zy for this reason), dual chop haxorus, infiltrator noivern, granbull with roar. If yourebthat desperate then i supposed you could run Bronzong but i dont think thats necessary.

Othet than that, toxic spikes and good ol fashioned ice beams are pretty good nails in the coffin for Zy at least from what ive seen.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Do you guys think it'll end up staying? I think the meta has adapted well; however, a lot of teams give Zygarde a free Sub which spells doom to a lot of teams. If it gets the free switch into like Forretress or Umbreon, it's all ogre. Shrek has spoken. (Btw all of this is SubCoil because it's the best set).

A result of Victini, Mew, and Slowbro being banned has caused mons like Forretress and Tentacruel to go up in usage since there aren't great defoggers left in the tier. Zygarde takes advantage of people trying to remove hazards. Things like Gligar, Forry, and Donphan don't really beat Zygarde.

It really takes some prediction to get something like Mega-blastoise, Nidoqueen, or a dragon in on when Zygarde switches in. Likewise, speed creeping with toxic is a great way to beat it.

What spreads do people use for SubCoil?

I know I'm all over the place, but a lot of Zygarde teams usually run Standard SR + either spikes or Tspikes + a poison type. Dugtrio can remove a lot of the poison types in the tier (as well as being a great trapper), so I could see that being used more.

 

[dingbat]

Do you guys think it'll end up staying? I think the meta has adapted well; however, a lot of teams give Zygarde a free Sub which spells doom to a lot of teams. If it gets the free switch into like Forretress or Umbreon, it's all ogre. Shrek has spoken. (Btw all of this is SubCoil because it's the best set).

A result of Victini, Mew, and Slowbro being banned has caused mons like Forretress and Tentacruel to go up in usage since there aren't great defoggers left in the tier. Zygarde takes advantage of people trying to remove hazards. Things like Gligar, Forry, and Donphan don't really beat Zygarde.

It really takes some prediction to get something like Mega-blastoise, Nidoqueen, or a dragon in on when Zygarde switches in. Likewise, speed creeping with toxic is a great way to beat it.

What spreads do people use for SubCoil?

I know I'm all over the place, but a lot of Zygarde teams usually run Standard SR + either spikes or Tspikes + a poison type. Dugtrio can remove a lot of the poison types in the tier (as well as being a great trapper), so I could see that being used more.

Running enough HP to create 101 hp subs is definitely a necessity (180something hp EVs if I remember correctly.) How much speed/spD you want to run depends on what threats you want to outspeed, and with base 95 Speed, it seems like outspeeding Adamant Entei wouldn't be a terrible idea, as Marth stated, since that's a few extra threats that now cannot effectively check Zygarde (Nidos, Ice Punch Luke, yadayadayada). Dump the remaining EVs into SpD, of course.