Challenge One of the hardest Pokemon questions of all time

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I would consider

Kecleon
-Skill Swap
-Ice beam
-Brick Break

but I think Articuno ruins that idea, if not other things. There seems to always be an ice type that has a dual typing to cover at least one weakness.

Is a fighting type move required to hit arceus, assuming forest's curse / trick or treat / soak aren't solutions?

Edit: Froslass screws this over completely, forget what I said lol
 
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I would consider

Kecleon
-Skill Swap
-Ice beam
-Brick Break

but I think Articuno ruins that idea, if not other things. There seems to always be an ice type that has a dual typing to cover at least one weakness.

Is a fighting type move required to hit arceus, assuming forest's curse / trick or treat / soak aren't solutions?
Yes, it needs to be able to hit every single Pokemon for SE damage with only 3 moves. Aegislash and Arceus too have been huge counters to practically every possible solution that was tossed up, especially since Stance Change is immune to Skill Swap, as is Multitype and a few other abilities. This makes my head le hurt. ._.
 

Imanalt

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So if you can select the opponents ability (which to me isnt hitting all /possible/ mons super effective, so i don't like this solution) an energy ball, mud shot, soak octillery almost does it, but paras line must not have dry skin, and you cant touch arceus. I think this is probably the solution the question asker is looking for though, and I'm going to show pretty conclusively that it can't otherwise be done.

There are four ways to change the opponents type:
1) Soak
2) Forest's Curse
3) Trick or Treat
4) Skill Swap + some type changing ability (color change easiest)

Any of these 4 methods needs to be able to hit pokemon they don't affect supereffective and hit all affected pokemon for supereffective with 2 coverage moves.
Case 1 (soak): Immune pokemon: Arceus, Paras line, Croagunk line, Chinchou line, Gastrodon line.
So requirements of 2 move coverage are: one of the two moves must be fighting type to hit arceus, so the pokemon must have an ability that lets it soak immune pokemon other than arceus (mold breaker) and then any move super effective against pure water (which, the only pokemon (basculin) with soak and mold breaker does not get outside of hidden power), or a move that hits all water mons, and the above listed lines all super effective. There is no overlap among their weaknesses, although freeze dry does come close, so it is NOT possible with soak.

Case 2 (Forest's Curse): Immune pokemon: all dualtyped pokemon with grass type already.
Requirements for this one are pretty easy: 2 move coverage that hits all grass/X dualtypes or grass/x/y triple types super effective. Obviously one of these moves must be one of bug, poison, flying, ice and fire type, as these are the full list of moves super effective on grass. So lets look for common threads in resistances to each:
Bug resists: steel, fire, flying. Clearly not possible to hit all three of these types super effectively in one move, Bug as primary coverage can't work.
Poison resists: Steel, rock, ghost, poison. Again, clearly not possible to hit all these types in one move, although ground hits all but ghost (although ground doesn't really work because of immunities anyways)
Flying resists: Steel, rock, electric. The only shared weakness is ground, but there are pokemon with these types immune to ground (rotom, skarmory, etc).
Ice resists (freeze dry assumed since its best): ice, fire, steel. There is no shared weakness between these types.
Fire resists: Fire, water, rock. There is no shared weakness between these types.
Therefore, Forest's curse can not be used.

Case 3 (Trick or Treat): Immune pokemon: all dualtypes with ghost already.
This one is fairly easy to disprove. It can't be done without fairy coverage to hit spiritomb and sableye, thus one move is needed to hit all pokemon when ghost type is slapped on. Ghost doesn't work because of normal types, dark doesn't work because of fairy types.

Case 4 (Skill Swap + color change): Immune pokemon are aegislash, shedinja, arceus.
Arceus again mandates fighting coverage, and you can run dark, ghost or fire coverage to hit aegislash and shedinja. Dark is the only coverage move that allows you to hit the opponent with super effective fighting afterwards, but this combination breaks down when running into spiritomb and sableye, so it is not possible.


So unless anyone has a solution that uses some other way I can't think of to change the opponent's type, there is definitely not a solution
 
Case 1 (soak): Immune pokemon: Arceus, Paras line, Croagunk line, Chinchou line, Gastrodon line.
So requirements of 2 move coverage are: one of the two moves must be fighting type to hit arceus, so the pokemon must have an ability that lets it soak immune pokemon other than arceus (mold breaker) and then any move super effective against pure water (which, the only pokemon (basculin) with soak and mold breaker does not get outside of hidden power), or a move that hits all water mons, and the above listed lines all super effective. There is no overlap among their weaknesses, although freeze dry does come close, so it is NOT possible with soak.
What about Flying Press + Freeze Dry? That would theoretically work, as it hits Arceus + Croagunk line SE with Flying Press (but no Smeargle :( )
 
Unfortunately, Smeargle isn't allowed, so there's nothing that has both Flying Press and Freeze Dry. :L Wait, does Delibird learn both moves?


EDIT: Scratch that, it doesn't. Back to the drawing board. :L And besides, even if it did learn both moves, it doesn't have a Rock move unless you count Rollout from a past Gen Tutor.
 
Bleh, this is impossible hahaha. xD Dat damn Aegislash and Arceus, among others. If we could use four moves, then Kecleon could take everything down SE damage after Skill Swapping Color Change and using a coverage move, other than the un-Skill Swappable abilities.
 
if we do not need to account for all possible abilities of a pokemon, then:

Pelipper @ Salac Berry
~Soak
~Shock Wave
~Natural Gift

should work. fighting-type natural gift hits arceus, and shock wave hits waters, i.e. everything else with soak. nothing has a water-absorbing ability or magic bounce as its only ability (sans volcanion who is hit by shock wave), so they would be irrelevant.

also, while it's iffy anyways due to "1v1", assist is not a random move if it only has one move to choose from.
 
if we do not need to account for all possible abilities of a pokemon, then:

Pelipper @ Salac Berry
~Soak
~Shock Wave
~Natural Gift

should work. fighting-type natural gift hits arceus, and shock wave hits waters, i.e. everything else with soak. nothing has a water-absorbing ability or magic bounce as its only ability (sans volcanion who is hit by shock wave), so they would be irrelevant.

also, while it's iffy anyways due to "1v1", assist is not a random move if it only has one move to choose from.
Maractus
 

Imanalt

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yeah sb879 probably has the "answer," much as I consider choosing your opponents ability to be a cop out. Pelipper is not the only mon that can run basically these moves, anything with fighting, electric or grass coverage, and soak can do it, so i guess chinchou line etc can do it as well. Well done to get it nonetheless
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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if we do not need to account for all possible abilities of a pokemon, then:

Pelipper @ Salac Berry
~Soak
~Shock Wave
~Natural Gift

should work. fighting-type natural gift hits arceus, and shock wave hits waters, i.e. everything else with soak. nothing has a water-absorbing ability or magic bounce as its only ability (sans volcanion who is hit by shock wave), so they would be irrelevant.

also, while it's iffy anyways due to "1v1", assist is not a random move if it only has one move to choose from.
The 'only ability' theory may actually work. I'll try confirming this with the quizmaster. I'll come back here when I get a reply.

EDIT: He said if a Pokemon has more than one ability, we need to consider all the abilities. I'm out of ideas, honestly. I'll post the solution when it gets revealed.
 
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Inspirited

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[...]
EDIT: He said if a Pokemon has more than one ability, we need to consider all the abilities. I'm out of ideas, honestly. I'll post the solution when it gets revealed.
Kecleon w/ protean
- Skill Swap
- Brick Break
- Fire Punch
Have you tried entering this yet? I know this requires ever mon except weedle and aegi to carry a move that turns them into a type weak to fire or fighting, but it is worth a shot I think
 
Kecleon with Protean
- Skill Swap
- Brick Break
- Flamethrower
Skill Swap Protean to the opponent and then have it use a move that makes it weak to Brick Break or Flamethrower. Flamethrower covers Aegislash and Shedinja, while Brick Break covers Arceus, Zorua, and Zoroark (according to Bulbapedia, Illusion can't be Skill Swapped, either).
 

zero2exe

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Can't believe I didn't check this thread earlier. Anyway question before I start thinking about it: When checking against Arceus does it only count on its basic normal form or it does also consider all of its plate-forms?
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Kecleon with Protean
- Skill Swap
- Brick Break
- Flamethrower
Skill Swap Protean to the opponent and then have it use a move that makes it weak to Brick Break or Flamethrower. Flamethrower covers Aegislash and Shedinja, while Brick Break covers Arceus, Zorua, and Zoroark (according to Bulbapedia, Illusion can't be Skill Swapped, either).
I'm pretty sure that's not allowed, but even then imposter Ditto stops this in its tracks.
 
I'm pretty sure that's not allowed, but even then imposter Ditto stops this in its tracks.
No it doesn't - on switch in, Imposter Ditto becomes the Normal type Kecleon, which is hit super effectively by Brick Break on its first turn. I'm not convinced that this solution is any better than requiring the opponent to use a specific ability, but it does cover every possible opponent.
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
is a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
No it doesn't - on switch in, Imposter Ditto becomes the Normal type Kecleon, which is hit super effectively by Brick Break on its first turn. I'm not convinced that this solution is any better than requiring the opponent to use a specific ability, but it does cover every possible opponent.
Right, but then comes the issue with luck since you'll be in a speed tie situation.
And the problem states it needs to hit every Pokemon for super effective damage, so you'd have to hit those that don't have moves weak to fighting or fire.
 
Right, but then comes the issue with luck since you'll be in a speed tie situation.
And the problem states it needs to hit every Pokemon for super effective damage, so you'd have to hit those that don't have moves weak to fighting or fire.
Using this solution at all requires a cooperative opponent selecting the right move for any Pokemon that isn't naturally weak against Fighting or Fire. If we're already operating on that assumption, then we just need the opponent to select Skill Swap. Again, I suspect that requiring a cooperative opponent in move selection is no better than requiring a cooperative opponent in ability selection, but a cooperative Imposter Ditto is guaranteed to be hit SE regardless of speed tie hax.
 
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