I'm not very high up on the ladder, but I threw Zygarde on my team to see whether or not it could work for me and how well. I've been using the SubCoil set, and while its good, I don't think it's broken in the sense that you can just slap it on a team and make it work. While it's quite bulky and has great typing, its low damage output before setup means that it can be stopped fairly easily by faster threats that can status it, so cleric support is pretty much necessary. It also needs entry hazard support to function well, otherwise it just won't nail some KOs that it really needs to. Unlike other Pokemon that were deemed broken, it does have a number of good counters and checks to it. Some people here mentioned Whimsicott, but pretty much any faster Pokemon which can catch Zygarde on the switch and status it works well. Maybe it's my lack of skill that makes me unable to use Zygarde at full potential, but I just don't think that it's broken.
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np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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I'm having trouble believing that SubCoil really is its best set, too. It's powerful, but you need a lot of team support to make it work, it's not like Crawdaunt who breaks walls indiscriminately or Klefki who would never be stopped.
Yeah, if (and that's a pretty big IF imo) it has the right team support, then it really functions well. It's not guaranteed to do its job, which is completely different from any BL poke we have currently. They're guaranteed to disrupt the meta and do their job in some way, shape or form (i.e. klefki setting spikes multiple times, Daunt, Raptor or Tini busting holes in teams, etc..). Zygarde isn't guaranteed to sweep and it really needs the right team support if that'll happen.
Crawdaunt and SubCoil Zygarde aren't really fair comparisons, though. For the most part, Zyg acts as a sweeper (SubCoil or DD), and it excels in this role due to its excellent bulk. As you said, Crawdaunt has amazing wallbreaking prowess but tends to fall short in set-up roles. Klefki is a support mon, so again I'm not seeing the comparison there. If you're talking about the support needed, obviously a sweeper will have a better payout than a wallbreaker (ending the game vs. probably taking out one mon), so I don't see the needed support as much of a hindrance.
If we want to compare Zygarde to a broken mon, we should compare it to Salamence, who could routinely destroy teams after just one turn of setup. Zygarde can't do that as well as Salamence could, at least with its SubCoil set, which is why I can't see it as broken. I've yet to test the DD set, but I feel like it still won't be broken because Zygarde's so-so Attack won't be enough to destroy teams after just one boost, and accumulating more boosts isn't a surefire strategy to victory when it can be stopped in its tracks by something like physically defensive Rotom-H and Will-O-Wisp.
The comparison I was making is that Klefki and Crawdaunt required nothing but themselves to roll teams. Klefki would always get Spikes up, would always paralyze something, etc. Crawdaunt would always get at least one KO, and more often than not you would always lose a Pokemon every time it came in without seriously good prediction (mean you lost MORE than one Pokemon. Zygarde cannot do that by himself, he has to have a lot of support, so simply getting in doesn't mean the Zygarde user wins or is unstoppable.
I'm seeing a lot of arguments saying that zygarde needs support to function - fucking of course it does. You can't bring zyggy by itself and expect it to 6-0 teams. The fact is if you give it that support (which honestly isn't as much as everyone is making it out to be, clerics are everywhere in uu and basically every poison type in the tier is good) Then it will roll straight through defensive teams - the reason zyggy was banned in the first place wasn't its ability to shut down offensive teams, it was its ability to take on defensive balance and stall; these teams still have very few answers to zygarde. Obviously the meta is a fair bit more unfavourable to it than when it was last introduced, but that's because stall and balance have gotten worse, not because zygarde has.
If a Pokemon needs little to no support to function, and can basically be slapped onto teams to achieve victory with little skill required, that makes it broken. When people are arguing that Zygarde needs support in order to function at its best, they're arguing that it's not broken because of that factor. Furthermore, Zygarde doesn't kill every kind of team like Togekiss could. Togekiss could destroy stall and offensive teams with the right set, and almost all of its counters could be defeated with Dugtrio. Zygarde is a great Pokemon, no doubt, but it's definitely not broken.
That isn't exactly how you decide something to be broken though... Somethings just aren't outright broken that it could be slapped on and completely decimate a play style. I think part of the problem here in looking at Zygarde tests are the metrics are bit skewed since the comparisons just aren't apt, many are apples and oranges comparing Zygarde to wallbreakers like Victini or Craw (which it shouldn't as namehtmas already points out), nor should a suspect necessarily be "perfect" in any sense of the word that they wouldn't need some sort of support or act as some one man army. I think the problem here are the standards are looking too much at quick ban suspects when in fact not all easily fall into that category, Zygarde especially since he took a long time to even be suspected (he was among the last to be added).
I think the most broken aspect of Zygarde is the fact that it is very constricting on team building and will most likely cause over centralization. If you decide not to run a hard counter to it then you have to run subpar sets or play absolutely perfectly to prevent it from getting a Substitute up. It turns so many defensive mons into a liability. The biggest example is every bulky water that doesn't want to run Ice Beam to beat it. If it stays UU it will most likely cause a very unhealthy shift in the metagame because its undoubtedly the best defensive wincon. There are ways to deal with it but when playing against it the advantage is always in favor of the player using Zygarde. Also quite a few of the checks for the SubCoil set are beaten by the DD set like Noivern, and Toxic Infiltrator Crobat and as Dudeman said the DD set is still as much of a threat if not more so than Haxorus' DD. So while it has hard counters(which aren't hard to wear down btw) it wouldn't be a healthy addition to the metagame.
Ive been using Zygarde with Rocks Pursuit Aero, Sableye, Tenta, Specs Whimsi and Scarf Rachi. Tenta, Aero and Sableye work well together in hazard control- keeping them up and keeping them away. Pursuit Aero can trap things like crobat that try to defog, Tenta spins and gets up tspikes which helps Zygarde in sweeping and keeps opposing gardes away. Sableye spin blocks and taunts opposing hazard setters. Specs whimsi switches in on shit like Mega Blast, Hydra, and Krook and gets off a strong STAB or u turns out to another poke. Scarf Rachi cleans up well in the context of this team as well as most. The team can deal with Fire Waters and Steels pretty well so it give Rachi free reign to spam Iron Head until its time to Healing Wish something back to full. I think that if this style on teambuilding starts to accompany Zygarde it will be over centralizing as st123 said. While Zygarde makes stall and balance worse, it makes for a team member that makes its own defensive balance much harder to deal with. If you build a decently fat core that can get up and control hazards Zygarde can and will clean for you. While offensive pressure does neutralize Zygarde to an extent, it doesn't matter as much in the context of a defensive team. Zygarde is easy to build around in such away that guards it and creates a situation for it to sweep a great majority of teams and that has to be broken in some respect.
Here's the team try it out - http://pastebin.com/sDe3LkF5
Here's the team try it out - http://pastebin.com/sDe3LkF5
I think Zygarde only really changes team building for balanced and stall teams. They are basically forced to carry something to deal with it. It is definitely a defensive threat for teams to prepare for; however, teams that have nothing for Florges will also have trouble.
I can't see how offensive teams will struggle with Zygarde (SubCoil or DD) because of the nature of the Meta. Scarf/LO Hydregion, Haxarous, Fast Nidoking, Bulky Nidoqueen, and Mega-Blastoise are all great ways to keep Zygarde from sweeping. Most offensive teams do not let mons set up.
Balanced and Stall teams will have trouble, but that is the nature of teambuilding. We have to give time for people to build around Zygarde in the way people started building around CroCune after Slowbro left. King UU came up with the Taunt Crobat + Baton Pass Vapoeron core, something that was already good but not really popular. Many defensive teams are just outright swept by CroCune after its (maybe) one counter is gone. A team of like Florges, Crobat, Swampert, Mega-Ampharous, + filler/filler will struggle with dealing with Suicine if they have SR + Scald damage going on.
The meta has definitely shifted in favor of a more offensive type play with Mega-Zam down, and Slowbro and Victini gone.
Considering Physically Defensive Florges is still super popular, and considering the fact that many players won't let Zygarde have more than one turn of set up, I do not think Zygarde is meta-game breaking. It is defining, but then again, things like Hydregion + Rachi + Nidoqueen is more mindless and meta-defining than Zygarde in itself.
Just because the meta has to adapt to a threat doesn't make it broken imo.
I can't see how offensive teams will struggle with Zygarde (SubCoil or DD) because of the nature of the Meta. Scarf/LO Hydregion, Haxarous, Fast Nidoking, Bulky Nidoqueen, and Mega-Blastoise are all great ways to keep Zygarde from sweeping. Most offensive teams do not let mons set up.
Balanced and Stall teams will have trouble, but that is the nature of teambuilding. We have to give time for people to build around Zygarde in the way people started building around CroCune after Slowbro left. King UU came up with the Taunt Crobat + Baton Pass Vapoeron core, something that was already good but not really popular. Many defensive teams are just outright swept by CroCune after its (maybe) one counter is gone. A team of like Florges, Crobat, Swampert, Mega-Ampharous, + filler/filler will struggle with dealing with Suicine if they have SR + Scald damage going on.
The meta has definitely shifted in favor of a more offensive type play with Mega-Zam down, and Slowbro and Victini gone.
Considering Physically Defensive Florges is still super popular, and considering the fact that many players won't let Zygarde have more than one turn of set up, I do not think Zygarde is meta-game breaking. It is defining, but then again, things like Hydregion + Rachi + Nidoqueen is more mindless and meta-defining than Zygarde in itself.
Just because the meta has to adapt to a threat doesn't make it broken imo.
I'm gonna get away from the Crawdaunt/Staraptor comparisons for the time being because a lot of you are correct in that it's a poor comparison. So hold onto your hats, because I'm about to blow your mind. Zygarde's closest analog is Suicune, a decidedly NOT broken Pokemon.
What has been the overwhelming theme so far with Zygarde, at least what was originally its most "broken" set, SubCoil? It's a fantastic win condition, but it requires heavy and well-built team support to make it happen. What other Pokemon is a great win condition with proper team support? Like I said, Suicune. Zygarde does put some pressure on defensive teams, but so do Kyurem and Suicune. Until another broken set is discovered (which it might not be) let's hold off on freaking out about Zygarde.
What has been the overwhelming theme so far with Zygarde, at least what was originally its most "broken" set, SubCoil? It's a fantastic win condition, but it requires heavy and well-built team support to make it happen. What other Pokemon is a great win condition with proper team support? Like I said, Suicune. Zygarde does put some pressure on defensive teams, but so do Kyurem and Suicune. Until another broken set is discovered (which it might not be) let's hold off on freaking out about Zygarde.
I definitely agree with Suicine vs. Zygarde.
Actually, kokoloko came up with a set in BW2 UU that is kind of similar, in that it's CM, Scald, Roar, to beat other set up mons. Zygarde just has the luxury of doing STAB Damage with its phasing move, and it has priority over other phasers due to its speed.
Suicine and Zygarde are THE bulky set up sweepers on UU, but they require a lot of support to really sweep a team. It will probably get 1-2 kills, but things like Lucario and Rachi do the same imo.
Actually, kokoloko came up with a set in BW2 UU that is kind of similar, in that it's CM, Scald, Roar, to beat other set up mons. Zygarde just has the luxury of doing STAB Damage with its phasing move, and it has priority over other phasers due to its speed.
Suicine and Zygarde are THE bulky set up sweepers on UU, but they require a lot of support to really sweep a team. It will probably get 1-2 kills, but things like Lucario and Rachi do the same imo.
I would just like to point out that Max Speed Nido isnt even a good way to keep Zygarde in check. Zygarde's best set (Shoutouts to xMarth), the Speedy SubCoil set runs enough speed to beat out Non-Scarfed Nido, as well as Lucario, while still retaining it's insane bulk. Zygarde is a ridiculously over-centralizing, but imo is not inherently broken, much like Crocune. Part of almost all good UU teams is an answer to (you guessed it), Crocune. I could easily see this becoming the case with SubCoil Zygarde, where most teams need a solid answer to it to prosper in the meta. If anything were to put Zygarde over the edge, it would be it's DD set. Not because of the DD set being broken, but because of how much different it is than SubCoil. Unlike Suicune, who has almost no differentiation between sets, Zygarde's 2 viable sets are completely different, with a different list of answers to each. Since Zygarde has no catch-all counters for both sets, and both are potent as fuck sweepers, I believe it will be banned.
TL;DR: Zygarde's SubCoil set is dangerous, but Zygarde will be banned because it has multiple potent sets, not because one set is inherently broken.
TL;DR: Zygarde's SubCoil set is dangerous, but Zygarde will be banned because it has multiple potent sets, not because one set is inherently broken.
Running a lot of speed retains much bulk, but loses some in exchange for that speed.
I don't think it's the fact that it has many viable sets. I actually think that's a pretty bad argument, considering Lucario can run SD or NP, Hydregion can run Scarf, LO, Spces, or Stall Breaker, and Infernape can run Banded, Scarf, SD, NP, or Expert Belt Lure. So your "potent sets" argument is pretty baseless considering it literally has 2, maybe three good sets.
If Zygarde gets banned, is because of the SubCoil set. The SubCoil set can set up on defensive teams and balanced teams with relative ease. As others have pointed out, if you lack a definitive counter, you must play perfectly in order to catch it on the switch. Offensive teams won't struggle with SubCoil or even DD Zygarde because of the nature of offense. You have things like Specs Noivern, bulky Nidoqueen, etc etc that are able to deal with Zygarde so that it cannot set up.
Florgies, Aromatisse, Nidoqueen, Hydregion, things that are pretty stable on a decent chunk of teams, I just can't see how any individual set is too dangerous. It is dangerous WHEN it sets up, but then again, what isn't?
I feel like things like Lucario are much more dangerous than Zygarde. Zygarde can beat stall and balanced if they are unprepared, but an unprepared team vs Lucario will practically always lose.
tl;dr if zygarde gets banned, its the ease of use. but imo I think it should stay. We need competitive set up sweeper to beat suicine now that slowbro is gone :[
I don't think it's the fact that it has many viable sets. I actually think that's a pretty bad argument, considering Lucario can run SD or NP, Hydregion can run Scarf, LO, Spces, or Stall Breaker, and Infernape can run Banded, Scarf, SD, NP, or Expert Belt Lure. So your "potent sets" argument is pretty baseless considering it literally has 2, maybe three good sets.
If Zygarde gets banned, is because of the SubCoil set. The SubCoil set can set up on defensive teams and balanced teams with relative ease. As others have pointed out, if you lack a definitive counter, you must play perfectly in order to catch it on the switch. Offensive teams won't struggle with SubCoil or even DD Zygarde because of the nature of offense. You have things like Specs Noivern, bulky Nidoqueen, etc etc that are able to deal with Zygarde so that it cannot set up.
Florgies, Aromatisse, Nidoqueen, Hydregion, things that are pretty stable on a decent chunk of teams, I just can't see how any individual set is too dangerous. It is dangerous WHEN it sets up, but then again, what isn't?
I feel like things like Lucario are much more dangerous than Zygarde. Zygarde can beat stall and balanced if they are unprepared, but an unprepared team vs Lucario will practically always lose.
tl;dr if zygarde gets banned, its the ease of use. but imo I think it should stay. We need competitive set up sweeper to beat suicine now that slowbro is gone :[
My point wasnt solely that it has multiple sets, it's that they have such different counters, whereas, for example, every Dreigon set is beaten by Aromatisse. Zygarde's problem is that it simply has no catch-all counters. While you can say this about many other pokemon, Zygardes are so troubling and difficult to counter in themselves that having to counter more than one set is just too over-centralizing for the UU meta.
While the SubCoil set may be a prevalent reason in this mon's banning, I honestly don't think that this one set is reason enough to call for a ban. Zygarde's ease of Use is also huge, but once again, not only in the SubCoil set. Zygarde is overall an easy as hell mon to use, in all it's sets.
The Important Part: I'm not saying SubCoil is bad. I'm just saying that if this mon gets banned, it is pushed over the edge by it's ease of use and lack of catch-all counters through its sets. Zygarde is not only being tested because of SubCoil, is what people fail to understand. It's being tested in it's overall prowess, and a contributing factor in it's prowess is the lack of preparedness for BOTH sets, not just one.
While the SubCoil set may be a prevalent reason in this mon's banning, I honestly don't think that this one set is reason enough to call for a ban. Zygarde's ease of Use is also huge, but once again, not only in the SubCoil set. Zygarde is overall an easy as hell mon to use, in all it's sets.
The Important Part: I'm not saying SubCoil is bad. I'm just saying that if this mon gets banned, it is pushed over the edge by it's ease of use and lack of catch-all counters through its sets. Zygarde is not only being tested because of SubCoil, is what people fail to understand. It's being tested in it's overall prowess, and a contributing factor in it's prowess is the lack of preparedness for BOTH sets, not just one.
A problem I have with the Zygarde vs Suicune argument is that Suicune has a plethora of counters for a team to choose from while Zygarde has maybe 10 at most. Also Zygarde can do alot of work against offense because of the combination of its bulk making it nearly impossible to ko without a SE attack and its Ground STAB off of a decently strong attack making it easy to force out or outright ko alot of commonly seen offensive pokemon like Jirachi, Infernape, Nidoking, Chandelure, and Toxicroak just to name a few. So really Zygarde is way more threatening to offense than most other defensive setup sweepers in the tier because of his coverage and speed.
Is this really a problem, though? Running Ice Beam means that bulky waters can hit Pokemon like Roserade and Mega Ampharos super-effectively, two Pokemon which threaten them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it'd be overcentralising to run Ice Beam if it means that these Pokemon have to give up a very important move just to counter Zygarde.
Speaking of its ice weakness, isn't the fact that having a double weakness to a common attacking move a big liability for it in terms of switching it in? It makes it hard to switch in on Pokemon with a suspected Ice-type move for fear of suffering heavy damage and preventing it from setting up a sub.
Also, after thinking about Zygarde more, it does seem to fare a lot better against stall teams. Most ways of beating it are all about hitting it hard and fast before it can get a sub up, and stall teams don't really seem to have a way of doing this. The most they can do is employ Prankster users like Sableye to quickly burn and neuter it, then switch in a physical wall and try to stall it out, which is hard to do when it's swinging Dragon Tail all over the place.
oh, I get what you mean, I guess I was thinking about how it could be outright broken and was working off that definition. But in terms of team support, wouldn't the fact that it needs quite a bit of team support to work when compared with other banned Pokemon make it not broken? That's what I was trying to do when comparing it to other broken mons.
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Not really when you consider Smeargle which needed an entire team as well to set up its formulaic play style. Not comparing them outside of the fact that a team needed to be built around it to play successfully.
Well you do lose quite a bit of utility when you run two attacks on any defensive pokemon. The only other mons that Ice coverage really hits are Roserade, Shaymin and Celebi on the switch because on most others the Scald burn would be preferred. So normally Ice coverage wouldn't be the best option on most bulky waters because it has limited usefulness that depends on whether or not your opponent brings Grass types or Zygarde. So while this certainly isn't the biggest issue with Zygarde if bulky waters would not want to be setup fodder they give up general utility for very specific coverage.
Smeargle's a terrible example, even given that you're "only" comparing the fact that they need team support. SmearglePass is one of the greatest oddballs to ever come out of Pokemon and has absolutely no equivalent so any comparison is dead on arrival.
I still don't get all these arguments that Zygarde is broken with full team support. Can someone illuminate what makes Zygarde so fucking good that we can look at SD Lucario, CroCune, NP Mega Houndoom, and Calm Mind Mega Alakazam and say "Nope, Zygarde is better than them all"?
I still don't get all these arguments that Zygarde is broken with full team support. Can someone illuminate what makes Zygarde so fucking good that we can look at SD Lucario, CroCune, NP Mega Houndoom, and Calm Mind Mega Alakazam and say "Nope, Zygarde is better than them all"?
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Actually, Ice-type attacks are pretty bloody rare in UU. There really aren't that many viable Ice-type Pokemon in the tier, and even then they are pretty darn rare, which makes that 4x weakness not too much of a problem for Zygarde, though it is one of its more notable flaws.
If I were to compare Zygarde to any other suspect it would be Smeargle when it comes to showing that a Pokemon that requires team support can still be considered broken. Both of them can reliably lead to a win as long as they have support provided for them. Smeargle will pass its boosts to a Pokemon to win, and Zygarde will win with the boosts by itself. Of course there are differences between them. SmearglePass was much easier to pull off with its formula to win, and Zygarde can have quite a few options to support it in a variety of ways. The fact of the matter is though, if Zygarde is an important factor in reliably winning the majority of games versus most of the tier or make a playstyle a liability, with or without support, it can be considered broken.
I don't know who has been saying full team support, as you really don't need that many Pokemon to support it, and the majority of them you'd have on a team anyway. Though if you want to know what sets aside Zygarde from the other setup sweepers you listed, here is why:
SD Lucario, Mega-Houndoom and Mega-Alakazam are all rather squishy setup sweepers, which can be threatened by rather easily if the opponent chooses to attack, and all of them are rather easily revenge-killed by something faster or priority. Zygarde has a lot more setup opportunities and is threatened by not as many Pokemon as these. To put it quite simply, Zygarde is a bulky setup sweeper, these guys aren't, and so Zyggy finds many more setup opportunities.
In regards to Suicune, this is a better comparison in that they are both bulky setup sweepers. The problem with Suicune is that it is quite easily walled. There are plenty of viable mons that stop CroCune in its tracks: Vaporeon, Toxicroak, Shaymin, CurseGastrodon (<– underrated one) etc. Zygarde on the other hand can hit pretty much everything other than like Togetic, which isn't that common. Once Zygarde gets to about +2 it can be pretty hard to stop. Suicune isn't as threatening.
This all being said, I'm still not sure whether it is broken yet. Zygarde is not outright and obviously broken, though it may be when you look into it.
RowDog Smeargle had access to Spore, Dark Void, Magic Coat and Taunt to bypass any usual checks and counters, including pranksters. That alone is a niche that which Zygarde can't fulfill so Smeargle is the team support and essentially the WinCon on Denisss team. If Smeargle went down, the whole strategy was gone.
Whimsicott has been rising in usage since GeoPass, but people are seeing that it's key resists and immunities and abilities make it really viable. You also have Noivern, Granbull, Sableye. They all had purpose before Zygarde and they have just as much purpose now. Knock Off and T-Spikes wear Zygarde down as well. It's lack of HP Recovery is a big downfall. That means it has a limited life span.
Whimsicott has been rising in usage since GeoPass, but people are seeing that it's key resists and immunities and abilities make it really viable. You also have Noivern, Granbull, Sableye. They all had purpose before Zygarde and they have just as much purpose now. Knock Off and T-Spikes wear Zygarde down as well. It's lack of HP Recovery is a big downfall. That means it has a limited life span.
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