Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[alexwolf]

Wanted to bring up this lord.

Sableye @ Sableite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Recover

Recently I've been experimenting with a bunch of different things, some good and some bad, and Mega Sableye is definitely one of those good things. CM Wisp Mega Sableye just straight up takes souls. Unfortunately I don't have any replays of any really recent version of my Mega Sableye stall, but it puts in work. The thing Mega Sableye does is offer stall teams pressure, flexibility, and control of the hazard game. Mega Sableye beats pretty much all of the tier's Stealth Rock users besides SR Landorus-I, which is rare anyways, and Heatran, which can be dealt with by Tentacruel (an excellent partner for synergetic reasons, mostly taking on Fairies). I'm talking things like Mamoswine, Garchomp, Terrakion, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Chansey, etc., all these common SR setters. It also means that it's difficult to pressure stall with something like Spikes Ferrothorn, as Sableye just comes in for free. It also spinblocks, which is pretty big for maintaining your own hazards in terms of the sand matchup.

Besides controlling the hazard game when Mega Evolved, Mega Sableye can also put in a lot of work as just normal Sableye, spreading Prankster Will-O-Wisp and in many cases just outright demolishing offensive and balanced teams. And that's another place Mega Sableye shines: sweeping. Usually, against more offensive teams, you don't evolve it right off the bat and instead run around spreading Will-O-Wisps and maybe firing off a Shadow Ball or too, applying pressure to the opposing team and weakening down threats to the point where all of Mega Sableye's answers are worn out by late-game. On my team I pair this with a full array of hazards to amplify this pressure and really allow Mega Sableye to shine. Once this pressure has taken its toll, you can Mega Evolve Sableye, potentially, and set up to sweep. Sometimes, this can even be done early-game, as a huge amount of teams don't really account for Mega Sableye (particularly on the offensive end of the spectrum, as high physical bulk + Wisp and respectable special bulk + CM boosts combined can make it really hard to break.

calcs to give you an idea of its bulk

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 116-140 (38.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 101-121 (33.2 - 39.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Sableye is benefitting from a few metagame trends at the moment as well. Mega Charizard X is currently pretty uncommon, as it to be expected with of course Mega Salamence, but also Mega Altaria, which I consider better than it on the whole for sure. Also, Clefable is being used significantly less with its inability to counter Greninja, and even then non-CM variants lose to Mega Sableye if they switch into Calm Mind or even 1v1 if Sableye hasn't evolved yet (far from uncommon).

So yeah, Mega Sableye is really good. It completely and utterly rips apart so many teams atm. I'd post replays, but I really don't save them so I don't have any good ones around. However, I've seen marked success with it dismantling ridiculous offensive and defensive cores alike in this metagame.

You forgot SR Clefable as a SR setter that can beat Mega Sableye. And yeah, standard CM Mega Sableye is a big threat, though the upper ladder is quite prepared for it.

 

[Albacore]

Stall isn't just "not dead", it's better than it has been since the Aegi ban and possibly the beginning of the generation, and is probably the dominant playstyle at the moment. Pretty much every single Mega ORAS has introduced benefitted stall in some way. Mega-Sableye is a massive boon to it, seriously the amount of utility this thing provides is so goddamn insane it's almost dumb not to run it on stall. I mean yeah it does annoy defensive teams a lot but it helps the playstyle way more. Mega-Altaria and Mega-Slowbro are also pretty great buffs to stall.
I really don't see how fast offensive Megas like Sceptile, Beedrill and Lopunny are problems for the playstyle at all, since they typically, to put it bluntly, do not care about them in the slightest, unlike offense which typically struggles vs them.
Even the more wallbreaky ORAS megas (Metagross, Gallade, even Camerupt) are, if anything, even bigger problems for offense than for stall due to their speed tier/typing.
Stall even benefits from Mega-Salamence's presence in the meta believe it or not, or rather, isn't troubled by it as much as other playstyles. Yes, MMence is a big problem for stall, but it's a far bigger problem for balance and offense. The most common set, the DD set, is stopped by stall without too much difficulty, and stall can even deal with the mixed set to some extent (with some good prediction). Offense, on the other hand, just cannot handle MMence at +1 outside of Ice Shard users and lol Scarf Greninja. Speaking of Greninja, it too is an extremely dominant force, who is much bigger problem for Offense than Stall (the latter of which can afford to run Chansey/Empoleon/Tentacruel/Cresselia).

In general, what makes Stall so good right now is that people just don't use their megas for wallbreaking anymore. Gardevoir, Medicham, Heracross, YZard are nowhere to be seen. Instead we see and use all those other megas who have a better matchup against offensive teams than defensive ones. Stall got better essentially because offense got worse. In other words, you're better off running stall than anything else right now.

Once MMence and Greninja get banned and the metagame settles down I can definitely see stall getting worse, but right now, it's pretty much the best playstyle, the only thing really holding it back being the huge popularity of trappers.

 

[yoloburn]

Stall isn't just "not dead", it's better than it has been since the Aegi ban and possibly the beginning of the generation, and is probably the dominant playstyle at the moment. Pretty much every single Mega ORAS has introduced benefitted stall in some way. Mega-Sableye is a massive boon to it, seriously the amount of utility this thing provides is so goddamn insane it's almost dumb not to run it on stall. I mean yeah it does annoy defensive teams a lot but it helps the playstyle way more. Mega-Altaria and Mega-Slowbro are also pretty great buffs to stall. I really don't see how fast offensive Megas like Sceptile, Beedrill and Lopunny are problems for the playstyle at all, since they typically, to put it blustly, do not care about them in the slightest, unlike offense which typically struggles vs them. Even the more wallbreaky ORAS megas (Metagross, Gallade, even Camerupt) are, if anything, even bigger problems for offense than for stall due to their speed tier/typing. Stall even benefits from Mega-Salamence's presence in the meta believe it or not, or rather, isn't troubled by it as much as other playstyles. Yes, MMence is a big problem for stall, but it's a far bigger problem for balance and offense. The most common set, the DD set, is stopped by stall without too much difficulty, and stall can even deal with the mixed set to some extent. Offense, on the other hand, just cannot handle MMence at +1 outside of Ice Shard users and lol Scarf Greninja. Speaking of Greninja, it too is a much bigger problem for Offense than Stall obviously, and is also an extremely dominant force.

In general, what makes Stall so good right now is that people just don't use their megas for wallbreaking anymore. Gardevoir, Medicham, Heracross, YZard are nowhere to be seen. Instead we see and use all those other megas who have a better matchup against offensive teams than defensive ones. Stall got better essentially because offense got worse.

Once MMence and Greninja get banned and the metagame settles down I can defenitely see stall getting worse, but right now, it's pretty much the best playstyle, the only thing really holding it back being the huge popularity of trappers

I didn't understand a thing you said.

How does MMence make offense worse? If every offensive team is running MMence then it's clearly better, and the only thing getting worse are things without MMence (like stall). Offense has 5 other slots just to eliminate the very few MMence checks/counters that stall can run (thus all the trappers everywhere).

Greninja, like Mence, similarly makes offense much better because there are very very few things in stall that can avoid getting 2HKO'd. However, HO, voltturn, balance, and any other offensive team can just throw in Ninja and call it a day. This makes them better, not worse.

 

[Alphanex20]

I didn't understand a thing you said.

How does MMence make offense worse? If every offensive team is running MMence then it's clearly better, and the only thing getting worse are things without MMence (like stall). Offense has 5 other slots just to eliminate the very few MMence checks/counters that stall can run.

Greninja, like Mence, similarly makes offense much better because there are very very few things in stall that can avoid getting 2HKO'd. However, HO, voltturn, balance, and any other offensive team can just throw in Ninja and call it a day. This makes them better, not worse.

I think he means "better by comparison" or in layman's terms "wrecked the least by Gren and MegaMence."

 

[yoloburn]

I think he means "better by comparison" or in layman's terms "wrecked the least by Gren and MegaMence."

But any offensive team can just run their own Gren and their own MMence. The only thing that can't really handle it will be stall, while offensive teams will just be 50/50 on who wins

 

[Plus C]

Just wanted to echo the notion that Porygon 2 is awesome in this meta, so many mons can be wiped out by Trace and he's so bulky that he can handle things he really shouldn't be able to. Here's a replay where he single handedly takes on half a team, including Chansey and Latios, and carries me to victory. Outstanding.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-180801845

 

[nyczxjay]

So, Char X seems to only be discussed when being compared to new DD users, does he have a role in the new meta? Dat 100 base speed is weak compared to Mega Mence, so he needs time to set up, even then, is he fast enough?

I've exclusively been using Char X on the ORAS ladder (I actually haven't even used any of the new Megas), and I still peaked in the top 10, so it's definitely still a threat. The only tweak I made to it was making sure I hit enough speed to outspeed Mega Sceptile after a DD. But if you already run Jolly to outspeed Scarf Lando-T, then that was never an issue.

In this metagame I think stall is dead.

From my experience in the higher ladder, Goth-Stall is still very much alive...

Also, I just want to take this time to express my disgust towards the rise of Gothitelle. The Trick/Rest set is really giving me trouble with stall since if I don't predict correctly and pull a double switch, nothing stops it from constantly coming in and trapping/killing my stallbreakers on my bulky offense/balanced teams (i.e. Mew, Sp Def Talonflame). After which stall just has a field day. While I know trapping in general has risen due to MegaMence and others, I'm starting to feel that Shadow Tag is broken. I'm even considering running Shed Shell on Sp Def Talonflame just so it can't trap me....

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way but at the same time maybe I'm just overreacting to the stupidity of Shadow Tag. If I am, someone please set me straight.

 

[Machi]

From my experience in the higher ladder, Goth-Stall is still very much alive...

Also, I just want to take this time to express my disgust towards the rise of Gothitelle. The Trick/Rest set is really giving me trouble with stall since if I don't predict correctly and pull a double switch, nothing stops it from constantly coming in and trapping/killing my stallbreakers on my bulky offense/balanced teams (i.e. Mew, Sp Def Talonflame). After which stall just has a field day. While I know trapping in general has risen due to MegaMence and others, I'm starting to feel that Shadow Tag is broken. I'm even considering running Shed Shell on Sp Def Talonflame just so it can't trap me....

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way but at the same time maybe I'm just overreacting to the stupidity of Shadow Tag. If I am, someone please set me straight.

I certainly don't disagree with you and some players even use Wobb to good effect. Trapping in general, especially Megas or would be checks to them, essentially leads you to a much bigger trade off than before because of how strong the new megas are around this time. It is because of ST that I opt to run Baton Pass when I run an MLop as otherwise she becomes an easy kill for trappers.

 

[AM]

But any offensive team can just run their own Gren and their own MMence. The only thing that can't really handle it will be stall, while offensive teams will just be 50/50 on who wins

Competent stall builds are aware of this and will mitigate this issue with the use of the common M-Bro/Chansey core, Specially Defensive Tentacruel for Greninja, Roar Zapdos for M-mence, and so forth. The way offense has gotten worse isn't exactly in that it's "gotten worse" it's that offensive teams are having more trouble taking into account all these threats at once, individually and team archetype wise. Stall was given fantastic toys to play with such M-Bro and M-Sableye and as such with just these two alone by themselves can account for a wide array of threats. While some offensive threats has allowed for more coverage with more various options it doesn't change the fact they have to take into account the other offensive and defensive threats at once while stall has to only work some various new changes with the transistion of XY to ORAS stall. It also comes back to the nature of stall as well. A good phrase I don't remember where it was said but imo it still applies "Stall is designed to not lose, offense is designed to win." Stall has gotten more options to not lose and offensive although has more options to win, they also have more loopholes to cover in order to attain said wins. That's just my take on it from what I've noticed.

 

[alexwolf]

Here are two cool sets i have been trying out lately:

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power / Focus Blast
- U-turn

Scarf Hydreigon outspeeds and (almost) OHKOes many of the new offensive Megas, such as Sceptile, Metagross, Lopunny, Mega Latias, Mega Gallade, and Mega Beedrill. U-turn is amazing on a scarf user and we all know it. Double STABs are obvious, and then Earth Power is the preferred move to nail Heatran, Mega Diancie, Bisharp, and do at least some decent damage to Mega Altaria, while Focus Blast is better for Tyranitar and Ferrothorn. A really nice thing about Scarf Hydreigon is its ability to check DD Sub Mega Gyarados with dual STABs, a complete asshole to offensive teams, which is really nice. Also, i am using Scarf Hydreigon with Baton Pass Nasty Plot Celebi, allowing Hydreigon to be a great cleaner if the opportunity arises. Crunch is also a viable move to fit somewhere if your team struggles against CM Stored Power Mega Latias. Modest is preferred because the power boost is very noticeable, but Timid is an option if you want to outrun Adamant Mega Charizard X and Scarf Jolly Landorus-T. Here are some calcs:

• 252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 202-238 (72.6 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 8 SpD Lopunny: 232-274 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sceptile: 518-612 (184.3 - 217.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• 252+ SpA Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 214-254 (88.7 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 258-306 (85.4 - 101.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Greninja @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Hydro Pump / Surf

With a Scarf, Greninja can revenge kill Mega Salamence reliably, and most offensive threats for that matter, such as Mega Gyarados (80% minimum with GK), Mega Diancie, every single Swift Swim user (Kingdra needs to be weakened though), and any kind of crazy fast Pokemon you can imagine, except from Excadrill in sand and Timid Kingdra under rain. Also, winning the 1 v 1 against opposing Greninja is great. STAB U-turn is amazing on a Scarf user and Greninja is no exception. But yeah, this thing is solid as fuck, having a Pokemon able to always revenge kill every single Mega Salamence set is priceless.

 

[Ajwf]

While scarf ninja is nice to RK mence (seriously. We've gotten to this point where an absolute trash set in XY becomes great for one mon in particular), you do sacrifice a ton of your threat potential vs stall. I've played a few variants of the scarf greninja and they've all proven to be a comparative breeze. Yes, I understand that this is the tradeoff to take on Mega Mence with more consistency and also grab some of those insane speed tiers, but you're trading out on a lot of hit power, which was really shaping up to be greninja's defining factor in ORAS. I think the scarf set is rather limiting due to the fact that you're only managing this vs +1 mence and not +2, non-subbed mences and trading out all of that firepower and pressure from the lack of switch-ins coupled with already great speed.

 

[WebBowser]

You know.... if stall is being a threat, it might just be worth it to bring out the single greatest stallbreaker in the history of pokemon, STALLBREAKER ESPEON!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-180857994

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Stored Power

This set is quite literally capable of 6-0ing most stallcores by itself, at the cost of being pretty much deadweight against offense (unless your a bp team, hue).

The advantages it has over Mega Sable is that it wins CM wars and can break past chansey, as shown in the replay.

 

[alexwolf]

While scarf ninja is nice to RK mence (seriously. We've gotten to this point where an absolute trash set in XY becomes great for one mon in particular), you do sacrifice a ton of your threat potential vs stall. I've played a few variants of the scarf greninja and they've all proven to be a comparative breeze. Yes, I understand that this is the tradeoff to take on Mega Mence with more consistency and also grab some of those insane speed tiers, but you're trading out on a lot of hit power, which was really shaping up to be greninja's defining factor in ORAS. I think the scarf set is rather limiting due to the fact that you're only managing this vs +1 mence and not +2, non-subbed mences and trading out all of that firepower and pressure from the lack of switch-ins coupled with already great speed.

Even if stall is great atm, stupidly fast offensive teams are everywhere, and Greninja is no longer the king of Speed in OU, with many Pokemon found on offensive teams outspeeding it, such as Mega Manectric, Scarf Lando-T, Mega Aerodactyl, Weavile, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, Mega Beedrill, Swift Swim users, and +1 Mega Salamence. Yeah, i know that many of those things existed before ORAS, but Weavile got way better and more popular in ORAS, and outspeeding a few major new offensive threats is all that a gimmick set needs to become consistent and good.

 

[Rosen]

Even if stall is great atm, stupidly fast offensive teams are everywhere, and Greninja is no longer the king of Speed in OU, with many Pokemon found on offensive teams outspeeding it, such as Mega Manectric, Scarf Lando-T, Mega Aerodactyl, Weavile, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, Mega Beedrill, Swift Swim users, and +1 Mega Salamence. Yeah, i know that many of those things existed before ORAS, but Weavile got way better and more popular in ORAS, and outspeeding a few major new offensive threats is all that a gimmick set needs to become consistent and good.

fuck yeah weavile

also scarf hydreigon is pretty cool in tandem with metagross and keldeo, although i prefer fire blast over focus blast/earth power since keld takes care of heatran

 

[Clone]

In a swing back to gen 4 I've been using HP ice rotom-W to deal with mega mence.
Defensively what are others using to deal with it? I hate sacking crap just to send in a scarf greninja or weavile.

HP Ice Zappy is a decent answer to SubRoost DD. Other than that Porygon 2 and like Rhyperior are the only good ones.

 

[Jeronado]

In a swing back to gen 4 I've been using HP ice rotom-W to deal with mega mence.
Defensively what are others using to deal with it? I hate sacking crap just to send in a scarf greninja or weavile.

I've been finding Porygon 2 creeping it's way onto more of my teams. It's a pretty good check to Salamence. You switch in on the DD or Sub and Trace Intimidate. Then you Ice Beam. Even if they made a Sub and DD, Porygon 2 can take a +1 Return.

Porygon 2 can also take on Greninja.

If the Mence is SubRoost then Tyranitar with Ice Beam can take it on as well.

 

[Sgt. Stardust]

Rotom-W is the bane of my fucking existence in ORAS right now. It's on every team and every team I build is weak to it. I know its not broken or anything but its so god damn annoying.

 

[Flamer]

Washtom has always been the mon that can literally fit on almost any team and in every meta its been a part of, it walls so much. I actually dislike it because almost any team I build benefits by just chucking it on there, megagross, Megapert Mamo, Scarf Lando, Burd, you name it, washtom probably walls it.

EDIT: Another mon ive also had a lot of fun with is Chesnaught. This guy is a really solid check to heaps of mons on the ladder and a neat replacement for Ferrothorn in this trapper infested meta. Bulletproof is neat as it allows it to switch in on a wider range of moves and also hard counter Ferrothorn. It still has a fair amount of issues but has certainly improved greatly in the transition to ORAS

 

[alexwolf]

If Rotom-W is messing with you, use physically defensive NP Celebi. Counters Rotom-W, any Mega Slowbro set, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, Mega Diancie (with some SpD investment), and all the stuff it used to, and passes NP boosts to a teammate, making it one of the most threatening defensive Pokemon in OU.

 

[napty]

You forgot SR Clefable as an SR setter that can beat Mega Sableye. And yeah, standard CM Mega Sableye is a big threat, though the upper ladder is quite prepared for it.

As well as Mold Breaker Excadrill who can get up rocks through Magic Bounce.

 

[NotSoClutch]

As well as Mold Breaker Excadrill who can get up rocks through Magic Bounce.

At what cost though? Excadrill loses 1 v 1 every time and stall generally has a way of removing hazards outside of sableye. Yes, excadrill can get rocks up, but I just don't think it's worth it in the end. I do think Sableye's mediocre HP stat will end up holding it back the most though. It'll be good on stall, but not as amazing as people have made it out to be sadly. The mega of choice for stall will likely be slowbro in the end as it is insanely bulky and forces plenty of switches to rack up that hazard damage.

 

[Gloating]

Bisharp is pretty fucking amazing right now. With fast Megas, the Latis, sand, Mence, Lando, Metagross and Megaman everywhere. I really think it's one of the best Pokemon in the ORAS tier right now.

If Rotom-W is messing with you, use physically defensive NP Celebi. Counters Rotom-W, any Mega Slowbro set, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, Mega Diancie (with some SpD investment), and all the stuff it used to, and passes NP boosts to a teammate, making it one of the most threatening defensive Pokemon in OU.

Celebi can also use Perish Song to deal with CM Mega Slowbro and other things trying to set up on it.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Bisharp is pretty fucking amazing right now. With fast Megas, the Latis, sand, Mence, Lando, Metagross and Megaman everywhere. I really think it's one of the best Pokemon in the ORAS tier right now.



Celebi can also use Perish Song to deal with CM Mega Slowbro and other things trying to set up on it.

Oh dang. Perish song politoad will be a big deal too especially with mega swampert XD. I completely forgot about perish song in the hyper offensive cesspool of X and Y.

Might as well bring physically defensive yawn gastrodon to the party too. I have a feeling that rain will be popular for a little bit and it checks slowbro decently enough.

 

[Machi]

If Rotom-W is messing with you, use physically defensive NP Celebi. Counters Rotom-W, any Mega Slowbro set, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, Mega Diancie (with some SpD investment), and all the stuff it used to, and passes NP boosts to a teammate, making it one of the most threatening defensive Pokemon in OU.

Glad to know I am not the only one who switched to Celebi, though I use the old offensive SR variant. Though it is a wonderful way to deal with the mons you mentioned, especially Rotom-W who becomes a liability against it. Helps especially that it has access to U-turn/Baton pass so it doesn't fall prey as easily to the rampant trappers.

 

[master_marshmallow]

[quote="nyczxjay, post: 5841883, member: name]From my experience in the higher ladder, Goth-Stall is still very much alive...

Also, I just want to take this time to express my disgust towards the rise of Gothitelle. The Trick/Rest set is really giving me trouble with stall since if I don't predict correctly and pull a double switch, nothing stops it from constantly coming in and trapping/killing my stallbreakers on my bulky offense/balanced teams (i.e. Mew, Sp Def Talonflame). After which stall just has a field day. While I know trapping in general has risen due to MegaMence and others, I'm starting to feel that Shadow Tag is broken. I'm even considering running Shed Shell on Sp Def Talonflame just so it can't trap me....

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way but at the same time maybe I'm just overreacting to the stupidity of Shadow Tag. If I am, someone please set me straight.[/quote]
Maybe I was just playing against trash players, but Shadow Tag stall has never claimed more than one of my Pokemon. I've never had a problem with it.