np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

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If sylveon drops (and it will) then i feel like it will be BL'd pretty quick. Simply because it is better than the current fairy clerics, and its offensive presence is significantly more so than aromatisse and florges. mandibuzz drop will be fun, as it can do a decent job checking physical threats, namely lucario, krookodile, non-banded mienshao, jirachi (to an extent) if it stays uu, infernape, and many others. not to mention the possibility of a specially defensive set, checking/walling things like hydreigon (252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 200-238 (47.2 - 56.2%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after stealth rock and leftovers recovery), roserade (lol overcoat on the sleep), celebi, shaymin (252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery lol weak as fuck), and others. Mandibuzz has a TON of potential in UU and could easily become the next best hazard remover. roost/foul play/defog/toxic seems like it will be ridiculously good here, and it will add a whole new dimension to uu.

And can we also talk about how ORAS is gonna change the meta? just imagine how much different things will be in a meta without sableye (hopefully mega stays ou), swampert, metagross, sharpedo, and gallade. sure, the latter 3 arent seen much in uu but swampert and sableyeless meta will be either fun or ridiculous, depending on how well we adapt to it. i can just say that uu will be a lot healthier, cuz fuck prankster, very unhealthy ability.

also, rip froslass spikestack, no more swampy OR sableye to aid it. @_@
 
Just a few notes about usage stats. Obviously things can change in this next month to come.
Given the trend of novelty with a new game you can expect a lot of the older mons to drop in usage, it is why UU beta looked so bad, especially until X or Y gets banned.

Though I have noted a while back that Jirachi has been rising in usage. That said once the ORAS meta settles I think MAero is also likely to leave down the line, it checks a lot of the new megas pretty well in the same manner that it does in UU.
 
If sylveon drops (and it will) then i feel like it will be BL'd pretty quick. Simply because it is better than the current fairy clerics, and its offensive presence is significantly more so than aromatisse and florges. mandibuzz drop will be fun, as it can do a decent job checking physical threats, namely lucario, krookodile, non-banded mienshao, jirachi (to an extent) if it stays uu, infernape, and many others. not to mention the possibility of a specially defensive set, checking/walling things like hydreigon (252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 200-238 (47.2 - 56.2%) -- 26.2% chance to 2HKO after stealth rock and leftovers recovery), roserade (lol overcoat on the sleep), celebi, shaymin (252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery lol weak as fuck), and others. Mandibuzz has a TON of potential in UU and could easily become the next best hazard remover. roost/foul play/defog/toxic seems like it will be ridiculously good here, and it will add a whole new dimension to uu.

And can we also talk about how ORAS is gonna change the meta? just imagine how much different things will be in a meta without sableye (hopefully mega stays ou), swampert, metagross, sharpedo, and gallade. sure, the latter 3 arent seen much in uu but swampert and sableyeless meta will be either fun or ridiculous, depending on how well we adapt to it. i can just say that uu will be a lot healthier, cuz fuck prankster, very unhealthy ability.

also, rip froslass spikestack, no more swampy OR sableye to aid it. @_@
A few minor nitpicks here. Sylveon will not be broken in uu because it's basically just a slightly bulkier florges with slightly larger wishes and an actual offensive presence. This doesnt mean that fire types, steel types and poison types don't beat it, since all it runs is Hyper Voice which means that just running a darmanitan/entei/arcanine/jirachi/aggron/nido/roserade/crobat etc means you can easily counter it. This is not to say specs sets don't exist (albeit bulky will be more common, especially the comparison to other bulky fairies) and specs sylveon is still ridiculous, but it's super slow and can easily be revenge killed by a ton of stuff. overall i think the presence of so much anti-fairy stuff in the metagame will allow it to stay and be healthy. i agree that mandibuzz is easily going to be the next best hazard removal mostly due to the fact that it doesn't get rekt by sleep powder unlike crobat. it'll be awesome for both balanced and more defensive teams and a team that needs a good form of hazard removal and doesn't want to stack mega alakazam weaknesses. also swampy leaving makes me sad, i really love that thing and will be sad to see it go. probably the most reliable rocker in the whole tier.
 
Agreed. It's honestly a fantastic member for balance teams simply due to it's good mix of power and utility. Sylvain + Maggron will be a very strong core for balance teams.
 
Espeon's and Cottone's high usage in OU is only due to the controversy going on around BP teams in Victory Road. Once something is done or the heat will subside, Espeon usage will drop back to UU, but it doesn't really does much in UU currently tbh. In fact, in the 1700s stats of UU, Espeon dropped below 3.41.
I guess the ones we might expect to rise preORAS are - Raikou, Jirachi, Azelf maybe and Crawdaunt maybe from BL since it crossed the cutoff this month as well.
The three months following the release of ORAS, we can prepare ourself to lose Swampert and Sableye but maybe their obviously high OU usage will be due to "new-toy"s and after few months, they might lose their high usage and actually stay so don't prepare to lose them just yet.
Also, Mawile is coming down. I think she might be actually good as Intimidate + Godlike defensive typing will check so many things in the meta while Sheer Force might surprise with power and the moveset is so versatile with things like Stealth Rock, Baton Pass(Swords Dance,Iron Defense,Stockpile), Counter, Foul Play, Pain Split, Knock Off, S-Toss, SuperFang, Taunt, Metal Burst, Play Rough, Iron Head, Sucker Punch, Power-up-Punch, Sub/Dynamic Punch, even sing lol.
 
Espeon's and Cottone's high usage in OU is only due to the controversy going on around BP teams in Victory Road. Once something is done or the heat will subside, Espeon usage will drop back to UU, but it doesn't really does much in UU currently tbh. In fact, in the 1700s stats of UU, Espeon dropped below 3.41.
I guess the ones we might expect to rise preORAS are - Raikou, Jirachi, Azelf maybe and Crawdaunt maybe from BL since it crossed the cutoff this month as well.
The three months following the release of ORAS, we can prepare ourself to lose Swampert and Sableye but maybe their obviously high OU usage will be due to "new-toy"s and after few months, they might lose their high usage and actually stay so don't prepare to lose them just yet.
Also, Mawile is coming down. I think she might be actually good as Intimidate + Godlike defensive typing will check so many things in the meta while Sheer Force might surprise with power and the moveset is so versatile with things like Stealth Rock, Baton Pass(Swords Dance,Iron Defense,Stockpile), Counter, Foul Play, Pain Split, Knock Off, S-Toss, SuperFang, Taunt, Metal Burst, Play Rough, Iron Head, Sucker Punch, Power-up-Punch, Sub/Dynamic Punch, even sing lol.
Have fun with that 55/85/85/55/55/50 BST spread.
 

kokoloko

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8 council votes and 4 junior council votes are in, and all but one are for keeping zygarde UU, so i'm calling it--zygarde is staying UU.

i have made the council votes public here and will make the remainder public as soon as they're available (i had set the deadline for tomorrow night so there's still time). i have also made the junior council's votes available for discussion purposes, although they won't count unless some regular council members abstain or don't vote.

the diggersby suspect test will begin 48 hours from this post, use that time to discuss the votes.

that is all.
 
There's something that I heard about as one of the reasons Diggersby was booted, and I want to try it this time (after rolling the tier with a Sticky Web team): SD Diggersby. That, or just run Agility Diggersby again. That shit's always fun.
 

aim

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SD Diggersby will be a threat. Access to a priority move as well as two strong stab + Huge Power. Luckily the meta has already shifted to a more offensive one as we have fast bulky waters like offensive Suicune which checks Diggersby as well as Scarf Hydreigon, another check who only takes 60% max from +2 quick atk (not counting LO or Silk Scarf) and can K0 back with Draco. I feel that Nidoqueens will start speed creeping again to outpace and deal with via icebeam. Another potential set i can see is sd lum diggersby allowing it to get past sableye and alomomola. This thing will be a monster with only checks. Not knowing the set (if cb it 2Hk0's everything) will also be a problem for bulkier teams. All in all i'm expecting a really fast hard hitting meta.
 
Diggersby has always been the BL 'mon that I thought had the least possible chance of coming back, but thinking it over now every Ghost-type we have really deals with it just fine (until ORAS, at least, when it gains access to Knock Off). I personally find it inexplicable that Trevenant is still getting as much usage as it is but it, Gourgeist forms, and Mismagius are all able to handle Diggersby defensively; even Froslass with Ice Beam can kill it while ignoring Quick Attack.
 
Bunny is being tested, oh shoot. This is going to turn into a Bugs Bunny/ Elmer Fudd retest quickly where bunny will beateverything.

Seriously though, I underestimated bunny in beta. But, Normal/Ground typing and access to agility and SD give it huge advantages over most of uu. Short ofMismagius, this thing has no true counters. Quick Attack makes short work offaster foes like Ape. On paper, it reminds me exactly of Crawdaunt, but it doesnt even need coverage moves since itssTaBs alone have phenomenal coverage.

Also, cool thing that ziggy will stay. Seeing more whimsicott is definitely nice and i think ziggy adds real variety to the meta without throwing it into chaos as we look for checks and counters.
 
doesn't it feel a bit too premature to test diggersby now considering that it's getting a whole fucking lot of shit in oras that easily changes up everything about him (e-punches, knock off, low kick/superpower)? personally, i think scolipede should've been first, even though it's probably equally as likely to get the boot lol

also yeah looking forward to abusing cb diggs again, massive beast when it was around. 100 bp stabs off groudon-level attack... mmm. sounds like a nice deal.
 

aim

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doesn't it feel a bit too premature to test diggersby now considering that it's getting a whole fucking lot of shit in oras that easily changes up everything about him (e-punches, knock off, low kick/superpower)? personally, i think scolipede should've been first, even though it's probably equally as likely to get the boot lol

also yeah looking forward to abusing cb diggs again, massive beast when it was around. 100 bp stabs off groudon-level attack... mmm. sounds like a nice deal.
Nah not premature since we are testing for XY UU. When oras comes out things will be retested for Oras UU
 
Oh diggersby, easly one of my favourite mons to use in OU.
With two good stabs, a priority and ability that double its attacking power it can hit hard(the choice band set 2hko everything except mismagius, and even these will get popped when it gets knock off in ORAS), but its speed and defenses make hard to use against more offensive team, when you see it that way the first thing to come to my mind is crawdaunt, but unlike the lobster the bunny more lacking offensively(normal dosen't hit nothing for SE) and even defensively(the priority resistences of crawdaunt), but main thing about crawdaunt over diggs is the simple fact that its got more power(with base attack, stabs and adaptillity).

The scarf set is useless here, as a lot of faster mon use scarf so it won't outspeed anything good(except the nidos).
The choice band set is good for nuking power and wallbreaking, but its not that good to be locked into normal or ground type attack.
Then its best sets are either agility or SD, the first is for dealling with offense and the latter for defense.

I think there is a good chance the bunny will stay, this offensive meta can just deal with it, but if it will stay its gonna be another big pain for stall.
 
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dingbat

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I used Diggersby on my Broken Memories team two months ago (when Slowbro was still in the tier) and man... It still single-handedly ripped the living shit out of stall lol. I definitely think there's something wrong when there's something that can cleanly 2hko all the bulky shit that exists in this tier with moves that don't even have adverse affects, and that's even taking into account its "meh" speed stat. Overall, I still can't see this meta fully adapting to Diggersby without a majority of teams having to run several 'mons just to keep it from switching in, or something.
 

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As screwed up as it sounds I can only wish Diggersby would stay UU cuz it'd at least keep people on their toes (I also hate stall), but I'm pretty sure most people have their expectations that it'll be getting booted out with little opposition. I kinda realized it's very similar to Crawdaunt when you get to really looking at it. Both of them have incredibly good coverage in just their STAB moves alone, they both hit like a truck thanks to their abilities, access to STAB priority moves, plus Swords Dance, and the fact that they're both still relatively slow for offensive Pokemon. Last time I used Diggersby I think I was playing around with the Scarf set. While it is slower than every scarfer in the tier (To the point that since Jolly helps it beat nothing, it runs Adamant, which means it still loses to Mega Aero) it's capable of actually wallbreaking for itself while revenge killing, which is kind of big in itself. Those STAB moves + U-turn are all it really needs, and then you have the Choice Band and Swords Dance sets, which are all equally scary to deal with. Pretty much every set is a big threat lol, but I feel that people will still find ways around Diggersby in the meta.

Like for instance, Mach Punch Infernape will probably be heck of a lot more common, Lucario's Extreme Speed still 2HKOes after rocks, meanwhile non-Scarf variants are outsped and decked in the face. Mega Aerodactyl is probably going to be even more common than it already was due to resisting Diggersby's STABs (Willing to argue Return still 2HKOes given a power boosting item), outspeeding and OHKOing any variant with Aqua Tail. Just be wary of Wild Charge and you should be fine. Scarf Chandelure's probably gonna also rise again in usage. Scarf Rachi will just have more and more reason to be used, which is kinda unfortunate but that is the reality facing us. I'm not gonna go and say it isn't broken just because the tier will have ways of checking Diggersby offensively (though at least you can't just tack on a Dugtrio and watch its counters fade out), but it will be managed a bit more effectively given its offensive checks aren't really niche mons in themselves, nor can they just be blanket checked by 1-2 Pokemon alone. Unfortunately though most defensive Pokemon still get rattled and shaken down by it, barring stuff like Trev, Gourgeist, and Mismagius. Oh and the big homie Air Balloon Chandelure if you're really feeling it.

Let's also not forget that all you have to do is just creep all your defensive mons to 255 Speed to make absolutely sure you're safe. 120 Spe Arcanine ftw amirite?!
 
Hey we do have the ghost/grass pokes that resist both STABs those surely are counters...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 343-406 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 343-404 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Gourgeist L and XL are probably the closest things to actual counters irl.

But, i dont think its fair to mention ORAS just yet. Knock Off and Ice Punch are probably the next best options for bunny when tutors come out since itll allow it to beat its normal checkz and counters. I think we'll find Bunny isbplenty strongenough even without these tutors...
 
Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 232 HP / 163 Def / 114 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Aqua Tail
- Roost
- SR/Defog/Taunt/Toxic/Eq/Pursuit(the versatility omg)

In anticipation of Diggy being tested I saw that this set is a pretty viable check for it. It lives all coverage moves thrown at it from diggy bar banded and has a good chance to KO back with aqua tail. Evs outspeed modest and adamant Mega Zam and Aero. This set can also check stuff like Krook Darm etc. and control hazards, stall break, spread status, trap etc. Tenta Vape Suicune are all good partners with this set and for different reasons based on your team.
 
Hey we do have the ghost/grass pokes that resist both STABs those surely are counters...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 343-406 (91.7 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 343-404 (91.7 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Gourgeist L and XL are probably the closest things to actual counters irl.

But, i dont think its fair to mention ORAS just yet. Knock Off and Ice Punch are probably the next best options for bunny when tutors come out since itll allow it to beat its normal checkz and counters. I think we'll find Bunny isbplenty strongenough even without these tutors...
Don't forget that the Gourgeist-Small can outspeed and burn Diggersby as well. Gourgeist is the best counter for now, but Diggersby is surely gone come ORAS. Mega Aerodactyl resists the STABs as well, but is weak to Wild Charge and Stone Edge. Chesnaught also deals with it fairly well, as it can only be 2HKOed by Choice Band Return and can still stall with Spiky Shield to survive. Wood Hammer takes it out in one hit.

I am unsure if Diggersby should stay or not at the moment. Stall only has the three options above to reliably deal with Choice Band Diggersby and SD Diggersby, and Mega Aerodactyl is the only thing that can switch into it on offense. However, offense can deal with its Scarf, Band and SD sets all fairly easily with Infernape, Lucario, Mienshao, Starmie and most other common Pokemon faster than it in the tier. Thankfully of course, we still have about two days to test it and get a grasp of the situation.

EDIT: Oh, look at that. A wild Mega Aerodactyl appeared from above! ^^
 
Florges will technically retain a niche over Sylveon by that point because of Synthesis, but yeah teams that would choose it with Sylveon in the tier are few and far between
 
Don't forget that the Gourgeist-Small can outspeed and burn Diggersby as well. Gourgeist is the best counter for now, but Diggersby is surely gone come ORAS. Mega Aerodactyl resists the STABs as well, but is weak to Wild Charge and Stone Edge. Chesnaught also deals with it fairly well, as it can only be 2HKOed by Choice Band Return and can still stall with Spiky Shield to survive. Wood Hammer takes it out in one hit.

I am unsure if Diggersby should stay or not at the moment. Stall only has the three options above to reliably deal with Choice Band Diggersby and SD Diggersby, and Mega Aerodactyl is the only thing that can switch into it on offense. However, offense can deal with its Scarf, Band and SD sets all fairly easily with Infernape, Lucario, Mienshao, Starmie and most other common Pokemon faster than it in the tier. Thankfully of course, we still have about two days to test it and get a grasp of the situation.

EDIT: Oh, look at that. A wild Mega Aerodactyl appeared from above! ^^
Mega Aero is kind of shaky don't you think??

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 120 HP / 4 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 160-188 (48.3 - 56.7%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO

Unless you specifically carry Aqua Tail or Ice Fang, then you risk the chance of being cleanly 2HKO by Return followed by QA with SR on the field

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 120 HP / 4 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 62-74 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
 
What would you drop from the standard sets though? Seems like M-Aero already has trouble carrying every move it wants to. Diggersby is going to probably be too powerful for UU, but we'll see. I think people also forget that Diggersby also learn Wild Charge, so even M-Aero isn't a safe switch in as it is. I'm having trouble thinking of proper counters to it other than obscure Pokemon like Gourgeist, but that might just be me. Quagsire isn't even safe, as it fails to 2HKO even with being 3HKOed by Return and Earthquake. Bronzong can wall it but can't stop SD sets from setting up and sweeping. Whimsicott can switch in on a predicted SD or Agility and Encore, but gets destroyed if its a CB set (252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 259-306 (80.1 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). I'm interested to see how people decide on how to deal with him, because it simply seems like Diggersby will just roll through the current UU meta.
 
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