XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[dodmen]

Yeah I've used Mega Aggron a lot recently too. I support it moving up to A- for sure, it's actually great as it can set up SR against the most popular defoggers Crobat and Mega Aerodactyl. You can also easily kill Empoleon and I ran Toxic which beats Defog Gligar, so it really is one of the most reliable SR users in the tier. And it does counter some very significant threats which dynamic listed above. However I don't think it's quite A material because of the bulky water problem (Toxic is really great but a Scald burn makes it useless). Also it doesn't really get to use its incredible physical bulk to its fullest because it's weak to the three most common physical attacks: Fire, Fighting, and Ground. So yeah A- is great for Mega Aggron but A is too far for now.

Maybe A will be more appropriate in the ORAS metagame because it counters a lot of the new megas but who knows.

 

[Watericekiller]

I feel like Espeon should at least be A or A+. Espeon has great Speed and Special Attack giving him great sweeping capability. Though outclassed by other special sweepers, and is very frail, he as other options other than being an All-out Attacker. With Espeons's Ability Magic Bounce he can switch into Hazard setters and other leads(Baring Galvantula) and set up Duel Screens. Aside from his support set he has access to great access to coverage moves. I'm not saying Espeon is the greatest UU pokemon but A- is a bit under ranked in my opinion, and I think a small bump is Necessary .

 

[Kink]

As CoolStoryBrobat's poolboy, I had to do it.

#CoolStoryBrobat: Rotom-H deserves B+
@dingbat: i agree with b+ rotom-H
#King UU: CoolStoryBrobat
#King UU: post that in thread?
#CoolStoryBrobat: Too lazy, someone do it for me
#King UU: nooo you
#CoolStoryBrobat: And say "CoolStoryBrobat made me do it"
#CoolStoryBrobat: Well Rotom-H's typing is excellent defensively, and it works as a pretty solid pivot against so mons in the tier
#CoolStoryBrobat: defensive sets are obnoxious especially with the WoW + Volt Switch utility
#CoolStoryBrobat: Specs Overheat is strong but I honestly think the real power behind Specs Rotom is the Volt Switch + Trick combo

 

[Kink]

As it stands right now, we're looking at m-aggron moving up from B+ to A-

If you have any objections, list them now.

 

[Meru]

Alright I'm going to propose quite a few changes just to get some discussion going

: A+ to A-
How the hell did this get up to A+? Fire-types aren't in dire need of checking now that Victini is gone (they're all residing in A-) so Chandelure's low speed sticks out like a sore thumb. Everything either outspeeds and OHKOs it (Krook, Hydrei, Mienshao), takes a hit from it and KOs back (Nidoqueen, Mega Blaster) or walls it (Umbreon, Vaporeon). It's still a good Luke check, and can also check a lot of other things like Roserade by virtue of its typing, but its hardly dominanting the meta right now.

: A- to A
Vaporeon and Mega Blastoise being dominant on Balance and Bulky Offense respectively means Roserade holds huge potential to checking the cornerstone of those teams. It also has nasty versatility, as beyond its STABs, you don't know if you're wearing it down via LO/hazards only to get surprised by Synthesis, hoping to check it with a Steel-types only to get popped by a Technician HP Fire, or even end up having your Crobat Sleep Powdered, which is especially potent as switch-in Sleep Powders don't activate a sleep turn. Again, another thing that benefits from Victini being gone.

: A+ to A
Still really good, but its prominent weaknesses and slow speed hold it back from checking a lot of the things that it wants to.

: A- to A
The best cleric in the tier now, and one of the main causes for the demise of Fire-spam. Lots of versatility in the 4th slot to keep teams on their toes

: B+ to A-/A
Really hard to take down, and quite a good defogger on both Balance and Bulky Offense. Ability to waste an opponent's turn with a surprise Immunity can also be quite nice.

: B+ to A-/A
Packs quite a bit of attacking power for a wall, and has enough versatiliy to make use of its 3rd and 4th slots beyond SR and Heavy Slam. Lots of good wish passers to pair it with right now

 

[HT]

So I'm kind of tentative posting here as I haven't really been in touch with this thread much, but here goes nothing. Nominating Toxicroak for B+. Croak is honestly one my favorite uu mons in this gen and for good reason. Croak threatens and sets up on a large majority of walls in the tier such as umbreon, blissey, vaporeon, alomomola, and florges to an extent. With access to priority sucker punch and a great coverage move in ice punch as well as the ability to raise its attack stat with SD, Croak does great against all archetypes of play.

The main checks and counters to Toxicroak are Crobat, Hydreigon, Krook, Gligar, Hippowdon, and Swampert (hope I'm not missing any). Crobat is usually a switch into Toxicroak for most players, but many forget about ice punch which can decimate it on the switch. Ice punch also deals with Gligar and even a weakened Hippowdon due to their ice weaknesses. As for Krook and Hydreigon, the main offensive checks to this monster, the only way they can usually get a safe switch into Croak is by sacking a mon due to Croak's movepool. Not to mention that Croak can pick either of them off with sucker punch once they are weakened. That just leaves team player, a mon which is easily worn down by repeated drain punch switch ins and is forced to rely on a cleric to regain health which can be difficult due to phazers and Croak's ability to threaten most clerics (Florges, Alom, Aroma, Bliss, Umb, Vap).

I understand the argument that Croak has to decide on whether or not it runs sucker punch or ice punch on its set to deal with either gligar balance or offense, but depending on your team, picking between the two should not be a problem if you are able to discern what your team is weak to.

Calcs

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 499-588 (138.6 - 163.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 192-229 (57.6 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 244-289 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 348-411 (99.1 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 281-330 (71.3 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I hope I was able to get my point across, I'm not too good with words tbh lol

 

[DiscoDucky]

Entei to B+. None of its moves help it deal with the top threats in the metagame. Furthermore, the intro of Vaporeon significantly reduces the effectiveness of sacred fire.

 

[BenzMafia]

First post in the viability ranking thread, hopefully i don't sound stupid :S

I disagree with Chandelure dropping (especially for two ranks). First of all it is the only fire type that cannot be trapped by dugtrio other than Rotom-H (inb4 pursuit) and can utilize a SubCM set. It can actually set up and win against special walls such as Blissey and Florges unlike megadoom. Timid Chandy is probably the best check to Adamant Lucario (counter if ice punch), hard walls NP Infernape, discourages shao to spam hjk etc... Pairs really well with scarfdreigon who can take out its checks and counters such as LO hydreigon, krookodile, houndoom and can bring it safely with a U-turn and proceed to set up on fairy types. Chandelure is a great win condition for balanced teams with T-Spikes. After opposing team is weakened Chandy can sweep. Things that hard wall it are also very rare aka Snorlax, trace P2 and Houndoom-M which is pretty nice. I think Chandelure is the go to fire type in the tier atm and has favourable match up against S rank mons such as Jirachi, Luc and Megazam if behind a sub.
Also Chandelure gains from Victini's departure. It was never a reliable switch-in since BS OHKOs after rocks. Now it is one less fire type to compete for a team slot.

But i support other noms made by Meru mainly Gligar to move up. By the way did Mismagius ever moved up after So Dynamic's nomination? Some people were supporting that as far as i remember.

 

[Bouff]

I guess I'll talk about the rankings Meru proposed.

Yeah, while it still serves as a great check to stuff like Nape, Rose, and Jirachi, it just isn't as good at demolishing Balance teams anymore, with the rise of Pokemon such as Umbreon, Vaporeon, and Snorlax giving it not nearly as much breathing room to sweep anymore, as well as Hydreigon being on virtually 80% of offensive teams to fuck it over, although I do think Specs sets are really underrated and have really limited switch ins on offensive teams, especially if they don't have Hydreigon, or if it's removed. I think A or A- is fine for it for now, although the fact that, unlike Victini in the past, most Fire-types have a good way to OHKO it (albeit physical Infernape is uncommon).

As of now, Mega Aggron is one of the most best Stealth Rock setters on balance teams that want to run Vaporeon and not stack a Grass weakness by using Swampert or Rhyperior, and is also a really good counter to the likes of Scarfrachi, Crobat, Mega Aerodactyl, Espeon, and non Focus Blast variants of Alakazam; although, I honestly don't know if it should go all the way to A just yet, as it's Spikes bait for the likes of Forretress (unlike you're good like me and run Fire Punch q8^), and also struggles with the immense popularity of bulky waters in the tier, especially Suicune, so I think putting it in A- is good for now.

With that being said, I'm stepping down from the viability council as I have a lot of other stuff getting in the way at the moment and can't be bothered with this; I'll still post in here from time to time, just not be making executive decisions anymore. Thanks for having me boys.

 

[RyanKoopa]

It has been nearly 2 weeks since the proposed changes to C Rank were introduced, could someone please update the thread? I don't usually make posts like this because I know they're obnoxious but just want to make sure people haven't forgotten to update since its been awhile.

 

[Sam]

Everything has been updated to this post

 

[Eol]

I've been using Scrafty for a while:

Scrafty@leftovers
Shed Skin
nature: jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpDef

-Drain Punch
-Knock Off
-Dragon Dance
-High Jump Kick

With much more success than its C Rank would presume. After a boost, it outspeeds a large part of the metagame, and can finish an entire weakened team easily, destroying healthier foes with HJK and regaining health with DP. A boost is easy to get when facing stall, as many think they will just be done with it once it's para'd/ burned, but no! Shed Skin activates and allows you to sweep though EVRATHING. The nice part is, when it's healthy, most faster foes just cannot break through it and risk a KO from Drain Punch, while Scrafty just recovers health. It does need a fait bit of support (1. Removing Fairies), but once it gets going it's an excellent sweeper, and merits a much higher rank than it has right now, imo.

 

[Venduria]

I've been using Scrafty for a while:

Scrafty@leftovers
Shed Skin
nature: jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpDef

-Drain Punch
-Knock Off
-Dragon Dance
-High Jump Kick

With much more success than its C Rank would presume. After a boost, it outspeeds a large part of the metagame, and can finish an entire weakened team easily, destroying healthier foes with HJK and regaining health with DP. A boost is easy to get when facing stall, as many think they will just be done with it once it's para'd/ burned, but no! Shed Skin activates and allows you to sweep though EVRATHING. The nice part is, when it's healthy, most faster foes just cannot break through it and risk a KO from Drain Punch, while Scrafty just recovers health. It does need a fait bit of support (1. Removing Fairies), but once it gets going it's an excellent sweeper, and merits a much higher rank than it has right now, imo.

I think C is fine for Scrafty, I see no reason to use Scrafty over Mienshao or Machamp right now. The DD set is still slow even after a DD (any semi-viable scarfer will RK it easily), and lacks the power to really break through threats (+1 HJK won't guarantee the 2HKO on Swampert). Being doubly weak to fairy, as well as being walled by them, doesn't help its case either. The BU set I think is more viable, but even then I never think to myself, man if only I had a BU Scrafty in my team. Shed Skin is really nice to have, and is one of the few reasons the BU set can be pulled off, but putting it up to B- is a bit of a stretch unfortunately. I mean, is it really as viable as Kingdra? Definitely not. Its movepool is large enough to where you could probably make a lure set (Iron Tail to wreck fairies, etc), but I doubt it would be enough to push it to B-.

 

[slated]

Here's a rather lengthy post detailing why scrafty should stay C, building somewhat on what the user above me said:

I've been using Scrafty for a while:

Scrafty@leftovers
Shed Skin
nature: jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpDef

-Drain Punch
-Knock Off
-Dragon Dance
-High Jump Kick

With much more success than its C Rank would presume. After a boost, it outspeeds a large part of the metagame, and can finish an entire weakened team easily, destroying healthier foes with HJK and regaining health with DP. A boost is easy to get when facing stall, as many think they will just be done with it once it's para'd/ burned, but no! Shed Skin activates and allows you to sweep though EVRATHING. The nice part is, when it's healthy, most faster foes just cannot break through it and risk a KO from Drain Punch, while Scrafty just recovers health. It does need a fait bit of support (1. Removing Fairies), but once it gets going it's an excellent sweeper, and merits a much higher rank than it has right now, imo.

Sadly, although Scrafty has potential to be a potent sweeper, it struggles against a huge part of the common mons in the metagame. Crobat, fairies (already mentioned) roar swampert/hippowdon, mega aero, the nidos, even zam (dazzling gleam, scrafty doesn't outspeed after +1) can be a stop to a possible sweep. Its main two sets, bulk up and DD, each suffer from their own cons: bulk up means you are very prone to being revenge killed, while DD doesn't give you enough bulk to setup to +2 +2, which is basically what scrafty needs to not still get outsped by most of the faster threats in the metagame. A speed stat that meager for a DD sweeper means you have to somehow boost multiple times in a metagame full of phazing, offensive fighting and flying type threats, and even status for non-Shed Skin scrafty versions. It can be useful in some situations, but I still don't think it needs to be a higher rank; overall, its inability to setup against basically any team archetype (offense overpowers it to the point where it can't setup, stall has phazing for shed skin and status for moxie, and balance has a bulky fairy usually but if not usually has a scarfer or a faster mon to revenge kill it or phazing) and the disappointing fact that even if you do manage to setup, let's say on a knock off from something, you can still easily be revenge killed by nearly every speedy threat in the metagame means I see it staying C rank. The one thing that scrafty can pull off decently well is a specially defensive set with bulk up, but it can still be phazed, shed skin is unreliable, it still isn't taking any powerful special or physical attacks even with boosts and bulk investment, and having drain punch as recovery or simply rest and relying on a 50% chance is more than shaky for a mon that really should be sweeping.

tl;dr: scrafty has a hard time setting up in the current metagame and an even harder time sweeping even after it has setup.

 

[glock in my toyota]

yeah, unfortunately scrafty's curb appeal is far less than his strength in practice. tbh just use a lucario @_@.

 

[dingbat]

Speaking of fairies...

Whimsicott from B+ to A-

I know that Meru will have quite a bit to say on this, since he had quite a bit of success with it on the ladder during the Zygarde test. But now that Zygarde is staying in this tier, there should be relatively little doubt that this thing warrants a move up. It is pretty much the best offensive counter to Zygarde right now, and in general, it's just extremely great at grabbing momentum for a team, whether it'd be in the form of u-turn or memento. It's still a great check to a lot of the dragons/fighting-types in the tier as usual, it can run either a support set or an offensive set to satisfy whatever the team needs (denisss pass, ofc), and overall it has just been getting better and better in this metagame.

Also, Zygarde for A+ rank y/n

 

[Meru]

I decided to make the following changes:

Mega Ampharos A+ to A
Chandelure A+ to A
Mega Absol A to A-
Mega Aggron B+ to A-
Whimsicott B+ to A-
Gligar B+ to A-
Togetic C to B-
Roserade A- to A
Noivern B to B+
and finally, Zygarde initially being placed at A+

Pretty much everything that moved up might need to move up even more and everything that moved down might even need to move down more. I also didn't implement some of the suggestions that I made earlier, as they didn't receive a large enough backing (Vaporeon to A) and I didn't want to sound biased, so if people begin more discussion surrounding these nominations and others, I'll be stepping in for now to update the Viability thread as it looks like Shitten is completely AWOL

 

[Sleepless]

Noivern for B+ rank - Between its already known utility in fast Taunt, two forms of recovery in Roost and Moonlight (whether you desire to lose the flying typing ot not), Super Fang and overall decent nuking power with LO/Specs and moves like Draco, Flamethrower, Hurricane/Air Slash and Boomburst, Noivern is decently viable threat but I want to mention a rather trendy set that benefited from both new drops from BL and it is the scarf set - Draco/Uturn/Switcheroo/filler. The novelty of the set is the fastest Trick user in the tier which also bypasses subs due to Inflitrator, thus granting the team an answer to the many sub set-up sweepers like Chandelure and Jirachi. It also cripples all of Noivern's common switch-ins, which are the specially defensive behemoths, Florges/Vaporeon/Umbreon/Blissey and Uturn still outspeed after the Switcheroo. Draco is for nuking power and especially ever useful to destroy both SubCoil Zygarde in one hit and surprise the +1 DD Zygarde. Uturn is for scouting/momentoum and either move isn't sufficient to 1hko the other new drop, MegaZam but they can either revenge kill it or wear it down in two hits.

(Should I elaborate with replays?)

done - Meru

Also, why did MegaAmph dropped to A?

 

[Meru]

Noivern was also one of those things that I was going to move, so I guess I'm going to do that now.

Mega Ampharos was much better in a metagame surrounded by Victini. However...

Bulky Waters are now commonly running Ice Beam for Zygarde (SubCM Cune, Ice Beam Vaporeon)
Bulky offensive pokemon that shut down Mega Ampharos are dominating the metagame (Dragon Pulse Mega Blast, Nidoqueen)
Whimsicott's overall increase in viability has put a huge damper on its usefulness
SpDef Gligar has had recent surge in popularity, which completely shuts down Volt Switch, and isn't anywhere near 2HKO'd by Dragon Pulse (and is faster)

It's definitely still good at getting momentum against a lot of common threats like Crobat, Jirachi, and Mega Aerodactyl, but overall, its dominant usage once lied in its key fire resistance, which is not as crucial now that Victini isn't in the tier.

 

[Kink]

I decided to make the following changes:

Mega Ampharos A+ to A
Chandelure A+ to A
Mega Absol A to A-
Mega Aggron B+ to A-
Whimsicott B+ to A-
Gligar B+ to A-
Togetic C to B-
Roserade A- to A
Noivern B to B+
and finally, Zygarde initially being placed at A+

Pretty much everything that moved up might need to move up even more and everything that moved down might even need to move down more. I also didn't implement some of the suggestions that I made earlier, as they didn't receive a large enough backing (Vaporeon to A) and I didn't want to sound biased, so if people begin more discussion surrounding these nominations and others, I'll be stepping in for now to update the Viability thread as it looks like Shitten is completely AWOL

Mismagius to B- as well, don't forget.

 

[YABO]

to S Rank

I know it's been brought up before but I would like to nominate Mienshao for S-rank once again. Since its previous nomination, the metagame has shifted from a more bulky style to a more offensive one. This change has allowed Mienshao to be an even greater asset as offense is more common. Mienshao is the fastest scarfer in the tier and its crazy power with Reckless allow it to OHKO pretty much every offensive mon in the tier after hazards damage. On Hyper Offensive teams it is easy to stack just a couple of hazards to allow for Mienshao to 2HKO pretty much any defensive mon and set itself up for a sweep late game. Mienshao is a staple on almost every archetype at the moment and deserves to be S Rank

 

[Choice Banned]

Tagging Kitten Milk to add Zygarde

 

[boltsandbombers]

Tagging Kitten Milk to add Zygarde

It was already added to A+ ?_?

 

[xMarth]

The only problem I could see with Mienshao being S-rank is that it has poor type synergy and bulk that doesn't let it switch in easily even on resisted hits. While it does share this trait with MegaZam, Mienshao lacks having both groundbreaking speed and power at the same time, which would come in its Scarf or LO sets respectively. For me Mienshao fits perfectly in A+ rank.

Also I think Espeon should move down to B+ rank. Its only niche that isn't outclassed by Alakazam are DualScreens and CM pass. Dual Screens have always felt like a poor option to base a team around and passing one Calm Mind(because realistically that's all Espeon will get) is very underwhelming when things like Celebi and even Togetic can pass +2 boosts. Magic Bounce would be useful to prevent phazing but Espeon's poor defensive bulk lets most common phazers smash it like Hippodown and Swampert.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I am not so sure Mienshao should be S-ranked imo. Although it can run many sets, I do not think any are nearly as effective as simply LO attacker or Scarfed. Honestly tho, and this may be a shit argument idk, but the main reason I can't see Mienshao being S-ranked is because many teams carry Crobat, and crobat is one of the best mons in their atm. it quad resists fighting, and you have to rely on stone edge to hit. you can go for knock off, but i dont believe it 2hks after rocks if it's a support set. and crobat is such a good mon that it simply shits on it. for example, scrafty will never be decent this meta simply because florges is a monster in this tier. last gen, with things like slowbro cofag umbreon cores, I could see scrafty being ranked highly.

anyways i just dont think itshould be s ranked