np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[UU ALL DAY]

Would it be fair to say Diggersby is very similar to crawdaunt? They are both slow (ish) with some huge attack and a complimentary movepool. Imo, the fact that Mega-Blastoise and Nidoqueen are standard on offense, I can see Diggersby being "checked," but I think it kind of shits all over stall. I guess the best counter would be like defensive mega-aero, but I'm pretty sure using a sub-par set is at least an indication that something is very, very good in the tier.

The SD set is probably what will be used the most, but I think the Scarf Set could also be good. Catch things off guard for the KO

 

[Machi]

Would it be fair to say Diggersby is very similar to crawdaunt? They are both slow (ish) with some huge attack and a complimentary movepool. Imo, the fact that Mega-Blastoise and Nidoqueen are standard on offense, I can see Diggersby being "checked," but I think it kind of shits all over stall. I guess the best counter would be like defensive mega-aero, but I'm pretty sure using a sub-par set is at least an indication that something is very, very good in the tier.

The SD set is probably what will be used the most, but I think the Scarf Set could also be good. Catch things off guard for the KO

Cept unlike Daunt he has U-turn which is a big deal, as well as a pretty usable speed to use Scarf with the power close to a CB to back it up with complimentary STABs. Adding to that it has more passable defense than Daunt, which is a bigger deal in allowing him to stomach hits which Daunt was deathly allergic to. Also resisting SR is important as it means he won't be worn down as quickly, which is why I love him as a scarf user.

 

[dodmen]

Aqua Tail is a perfectly viable move on Mega Aerodactyl, as gets nice neutral coverage + Tough Claws boost, and also hits super effectively vs. things like Nidos, Hippowdon, and Gligar. It's actually my go-to move when I use Mega Aerodactyl. I can't see Wild Charge being used on Diggersby all too much as boosting sets have no room for it and Band sets have to sacrifice either U-turn or Quick Attack.

To be honest, unless you're running full stall, there's no reason or need to run niche stuff like Gourgeist and Trevenant. As far as I can see, the only offensive Pokemon that Diggersby really beats 1v1 are Mega Ampharos, Nidoqueen, maybe Machamp, and maybe various weak shit like 80 Atk Crobat (still 2HKOs Diggersby lol). Otherwise, Diggersby just gets destroyed by nearly every commonly used offensive Pokemon in the tier, so a well-built and well-played offensive team should have almost no trouble with Diggersby. It could run a Scarf to do a bit better but that significantly detracts from its amazing power, and also as a Scarfer it can't revenge kill +1 Haxorus and Zygarde which is one of the main reasons to use a scarf.

Comparing it to Crawdaunt, Diggersby doesn't have the easy spammability of Knock off and Crabhammer given the various immunities and resistances of its main STABs, but has overall better neutral coverage with them both combined. Its priority is also a bit worse seeing that it doesn't hit supereffectively and can't threaten as many things with it. It does, however, have way more potent to boost its speed and pose an enormous threat to offense if it does manage to get off an Agility (however, it basically has zero room to do so vs offense).

That being said, the amount of work it puts in against more defensively oriented teams may honestly be enough to ban it anyways. I don't really have to elaborate on this since it's been said many times over by many people. I think one of the reasons for banning it in the first place was that "You can't tell what set it is before it comes out and uses a move, and by then it might have killed 1-2 Pokemon already." This still holds true to a certain extent, but just like with Zygarde, the metagame has changed so much from when it was last usable in the tier. Balanced Pink Core + Wallbreaker + Scarfer isn't nearly as popular/existent at all, and it simply doesn't have the capability to set up or even get off an attack in the first place against offense (the most common playstyle of UU). Combine this with the fact that Scarf Diggersby is highly sub-optimal for offensive teams, and I legitimately think that this 'mon may not be as "broken" as people are making it out to be.

This is all theorymon so who knows maybe it's completely wrong :] I'll definitely have fun testing it though.

 

[RowDog]

Do note that an Agility set pretty much destroys all of your offensive checks bar those holding priority, as Adamant Diggersby at +2 outspeeds Scarf Mienshao, and its passable bulk actually does give it a chance to set up versus certain offensive Pokemon, as it should outspeed like everything at +2 only have to worry about priority.

And I know that there is a lot of biased against stallier teams in UU, but when a Pokemon makes a playstyle completely unviable it is generally enough to make the metagame unhealthy and should be banned. And I'm not sure about all the talk about stall being a rather unviable playstlye. I mean look at Bob the Bro who we know for his stall teams with 3 accounts in the top 5 on the ladder. Hardly a dead playstyle imo.

 

[kokoloko]

good to know the 48 hour last suspect discussion period was a terrible idea !_!

 

[Schpoonman]

I blame aim. Also I totally thought you said discuss the upcoming suspect. Fine.

Zygarde seems very above average to me, but that's it. And when I say "very above average" I mean he is above average to a ludicrously thorough amount, not that he is stupid good. I never got SubCoil to work (honestly, trying to stack hazards and junk and find a place to pivot into Zygarde to do work just ended up peppering a team into submission without Zygarde ever touching the field), while the Dragon Dance set is good, but it doesn't really do anything another Scarfer like Mienshao couldn't do. I've got way more experience with DD, so I'll be mostly talking about that.

The massive bulk helps when setting up (fuk skald), but it's not really that powerful, even with a Life Orb. It's not super useful against bulky offense or stall unless you've already slapped around their team a lot, but any other fast powerful Pokemon (again, Scarf Mienshao) can capitalize on a weak team like that. It's decent against offense, which is generally easier to wear down, and given how bulky Zygarde is it does help a lot when setting up. You barely take 30% from Darmanitan's Flare Blitz, so if you get a switch-in off a revenge or something that's a free switch. I'm mentioning Darm specifically because I've used it as set-up fodder a LOT. You don't even have to worry about the burn thanks to Sheer Force.

A set I'm sure I'll eventually try out is the max physical bulk RestTalk phazer set. I mentioned it earlier in the thread but it does silly shit like take well under half from Lucario's unboosted Life Orb Close Combat.

 

[aim]

My bad koko i read 4 hours :J

 

[GULLY]

Along w mega aero bronzong is one of the best stops to this thing. Its typing allows it to switch in to alot of this metas big threats, rachi nido whimsi crobat zam to an extent, the list goes on. I'm experiment with building around it but it seems to have a good niche atm

 

[Patrick1088]

Along w mega aero bronzong is one of the best stops to this thing. Its typing allows it to switch in to alot of this metas big threats, rachi nido whimsi crobat zam to an extent, the list goes on. I'm experiment with building around it but it seems to have a good niche atm

Other than Levitate, Zong is almost entirely outclassed by Metagross. The fact that you need to delve down to Zong just to counter Diggersby should be a sign that something isnt right. Regarding Nidos, they can easily run Fire Blast to toast Zong... whimsi can encore when it tries to set up an Rachi can set up on non earthquake sets with little ease.

 

[GULLY]

the standard zong set is gyro sr toxic eq. there is no other reason to run a different set unless you want to sacrifice viablity. apart of the reason one uses bronzong is for its ability in levitate. if we are going by your train of logic i could say rachi outclasses bronzong since jirachi outclasses meta and so on. Similar typing doesnt imply similar role. and with the rediculous senarios you brought up, for 1 nidos pmuch never run fireblast. If they have the freedom to run a 4th move over hazards the are going to pick something like superpower, sub or taunt. Not fire blast preparering for something a whole tier under it. With whimsi, gyro ball damn near kills if not kills. If you get lucky once or twice getting of a encore or on a setup whopdy do, zong still gets free switch in on you. and with rachi nback again to my first point, its utterly retarded to not run eq on a mon that checks poison and steels. stop trying to be a contration.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

anyways, I wouldn't say Jirachi > Metagross > Bronzong.

As SR, I would say Bronzong is the most viable, but it has the least utility. Jirachi can run a bunch of sets, from scarf, sr, ebelt, cm, etc. Metagross can run vest, sr, agility, all out attacking, pursuit trapping, scarf trick, or cb. Bronzong can basically only set up rocks, toxic one or two things, and maybe have another set as a dedicated lead of sr trick room and explosion.

your argument is that diggersby as a niche because bronzong and mega-aero counter it, right? So what else in the tier can beat it? I would definitely say Diggersby is definetly stronger than victini which was deemed to strong for the tier. Diggersby doesn't have to run different sets to beat would be counters. Victini had to run a mixed/special set to beat physical counter and vicevers. Diggersby can literally just SD up on "counters" and shrek them ogre style with huge power +2 LO Return or EQ.

I want diggersby to stay because it's something that can beat stall and offensive teams (with proper support), but I feel it has crawdaunt syndrome where if something comes it, you are pretty screwed since dedicated counters (ie aero) can be eq'd on the predicted roost. Normal/ground is also sick typing, being immune to electric and ghost type moves.

plus it gets u-turn which is just complete aids on volturn teams, because you can pair it up with something like ebelt raikou and just slurp up souls.

tl;dr diggersby is very strong, but i'd have to see it in high level play to judge whether it's too good or not. The meta has changed a lot, so let's not immediately jump to conclusions.

 

[Sam]

OK like koko said, the purpose for the 48 hours is to mainly discuss the Zygarde votes. Theorymoning about Diggers is nice and all but we have a whole suspect test ahead of us for that.

One thing I noticed in a lot of council members votes (me, Bouff, koko to name a few) is that there was acknowledgement that Zygarde is centralizing to some degree. However, we all said that it was never over-centralizing. Do you guys agree with that?

 

[dodmen]

I definitely agree that Zygarde is centralizing, but sort of in the same way that Lucario and Hydreigon are centralizing. It's a huge threat that you should always take into account when building teams, but it's not centralizing to the point that any team can just slap on a Zygarde and instantly be better. It also doesn't limit teambuilding very much as there are many ways to stop it from setting up and sweeping for every playstyle. It's simply a big threat, not game-breaking and not overcentralizing.

 

[DiscoDucky]

the standard zong set is gyro sr toxic eq. there is no other reason to run a different set unless you want to sacrifice viablity. apart of the reason one uses bronzong is for its ability in levitate. if we are going by your train of logic i could say rachi outclasses bronzong since jirachi outclasses meta and so on. Similar typing doesnt imply similar role. and with the rediculous senarios you brought up, for 1 nidos pmuch never run fireblast. If they have the freedom to run a 4th move over hazards the are going to pick something like superpower, sub or taunt. Not fire blast preparering for something a whole tier under it. With whimsi, gyro ball damn near kills if not kills. If you get lucky once or twice getting of a encore or on a setup whopdy do, zong still gets free switch in on you. and with rachi nback again to my first point, its utterly retarded to not run eq on a mon that checks poison and steels. stop trying to be a contration.

imo if you're not running Zong as a Trick Room lead or just not running Explosion on standard Zong, you're doing something wrong.

Anyway, Zygarde is centralizing in the same way Suicune is centralizing: if you don't have something to prepare for it, you're fucked. Likewise, it's far from broken. Besides, it's not like Zygarde's typing is impossible to handle in UU. Ice coverage is quite common down in UU. Centralizing Dragon-types such as Hydreigon are almost omnipresent. Offensive fairies are kind of lacking, but still pressure Zygarde pretty well.

Also, Granbull comeback y/n

 

[xMarth]

Well Ice coverage becoming common is probably a direct result of Zygarde's centralizing effect. Need for Fairy types on balance becomes much higher priority as well. Also some funny calcs to remind everyone of bulk.

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 308-366 (75.6 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 335-398 (82.3 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 366-432 (89.9 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 367-432 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 332-392 (81.5 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So even though the damage does ruin its chance of sweeping and I wouldn't even run this much investment cause speed is more important, Zygarde has some pretty ridiculous bulk.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I'd say Zygarde is tier-defining and centralising, but not so much so that it messes up what's in the meta. One thing I've noticed is that bulky waters tend to carry ice beam, something many do not. Vaper will opt for ice beam over heal bell or baton pass, and empoleon will forgo toxic for ice beam. That definitely changes up the meta, because it means vap can be more easily beaten or worn down.

I really do believe if we had mew and slowbro in the tier, zygarde would be much more manageable.

 

[Chronobreak]

Definetly centralizing. As said above, if you lack an answer, it steamrolls your team so hard. While SubCoil is its best set, DDance is definitely a threat that needs to be prepared for

 

[Patrick1088]

So, hows everybodybfeeling about bunny? Ive been running a Double Dance set with support and its ability to tear through offense and stall is nuts. I know people hyped double dance Haxorus during retest (or even dragon dance + 3 moves), but not being able to spam outrage really hurt. Well, bunny has no trouble spamming either since the few levitating ghosts and song are maimed.by CB Krook , which also helps bunny get in safely.

 

[Ryuuki]

Let's say things before everything is said. I've had most succes with the Double dance set with either Life Orb or Lum Berry. Life orb makes you better att killing stuff while Lum Berry cures you from random Toxic and Burns, though Life Orb have been superior so far.
The double dance set have always had a chance to shiny in every match compared to CB or SC where they can be luckluster compered to the Double dance set i some matchups. Sometimes I can miss Quick attack vs offensive teams for revemge killing, but you cannot get everything. It's defenses are decent in my oppinion, it,s enough to take a weaker hit, setup and then sweep.

When it commes to support, Pursuit trapping and U-turn/baton passes are more then enough support to get going. CB Krook is a great partner for diggersby but it don,t help me that much vs Chesnought.

I might not be the best player and realativly new to the tier but I feel that Diggersby can rip both offensive and defensive teams apart without much support or trouble, just remove Bronzong and you're ready to sweep, so I hope it don't stay.

 

[RyanKoopa]

Okay I know I'm not the greatest battler out there but I still think this replay is a good example of why Diggersby needs to go http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-182965244
This is a max defense bold Swampert and it was still easily 2hkod by CB Diggersby. When a physical attacker is able to take down dedicated physical walls with ease you know there is a problem.

 

[Mazz]

Okay I know I'm not the greatest battler out there but I still think this replay is a good example of why Diggersby needs to go http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-182965244
This is a max defense bold Swampert and it was still easily 2hkod by CB Diggersby. When a physical attacker is able to take down dedicated physical walls with ease you know there is a problem.

I'd like to formally apologize for my behavior and the behavior of my spectators. We had been harassing the ladder for most of the night, and you just ended up in an unfortunate path.

Anyways, my initial thoughts on Diggersby are really mixed. I don't see it as super broken, and I could see a case being made to keep it in UU. It's hard to really put into words, but its just strong. Normal STAB is pretty bad as it is - Ghosts are immune to it, and Steel- or Rock-types don't care at all. I've heard that the CB set is one of its better sets, so that's what I've been trying out, and Diggersby sits at a really awkward speed tier to really be an effective bander. If you don't run Sticky Web, you're almost guaranteed to outspeed it.

The biggest problem is that in order to easily deal with it, you either need to pack a Bronzong or sacrifice something, which is shitty. Besides that, it's fun to use. Diggersby is my Victini - hits like a mack truck and I love it, but the tier is probably better without it.

 

[Patrick1088]

Mazz thats a great point on Bunny, getting something safely in is very similar to Victini,where it just nukes everything. But, the thing with Bunny is that it doesnt even need more coverage to be effective, as was the case with Tiniwho could nuke stuff with VC and pick off the stragglers with its coverage moves. People are going to argue that Bunny is frail and easy to pick off,.but it has the movepool to get around its checks and counters with just SD, Agility, QA, Return and Earthquake. These 5 moves allow it to beat faster offensive teams, tear through stall, beat non espeed priority users, etc..

On the flip side (to be fair), Sableye is immune to its priority move and can WoW before it attacks (But still takes almost 50% from even burned adamant non LO earthquake).

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

But, Bunny can easily run Lum Berry as pointed out before so eh. another poke that can check Bunny who isnt named Mismagius or Zong is Chesnaught.

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 135-160 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- 91% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 342-404 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 270-318 (71 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chesnaught still has a 44% chance to survive the +2 Adamant LO Return as well...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 351-413 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Physically Defensive Hippo is ok too, but can barely 2hko bunny...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 360-425 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

I suppose Zygarde SubCoil can theoretically check bunny, but bunny can boost faster than ziggy, so idk.

 

[Schpoonman]

If you can get a sub up before Diggersby gets in, you have a shot with Dragon Tail preventing it from setting up.

 

[Ryuuki]

Mazz thats a great point on Bunny, getting something safely in is very similar to Victini,where it just nukes everything. But, the thing with Bunny is that it doesnt even need more coverage to be effective, as was the case with Tiniwho could nuke stuff with VC and pick off the stragglers with its coverage moves. People are going to argue that Bunny is frail and easy to pick off,.but it has the movepool to get around its checks and counters with just SD, Agility, QA, Return and Earthquake. These 5 moves allow it to beat faster offensive teams, tear through stall, beat non espeed priority users, etc..

On the flip side (to be fair), Sableye is immune to its priority move and can WoW before it attacks (But still takes almost 50% from even burned adamant non LO earthquake).

252+ Atk Huge Power burned Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

But, Bunny can easily run Lum Berry as pointed out before so eh. another poke that can check Bunny who isnt named Mismagius or Zong is Chesnaught.

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 135-160 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- 91% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 342-404 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 270-318 (71 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chesnaught still has a 44% chance to survive the +2 Adamant LO Return as well...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 351-413 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Physically Defensive Hippo is ok too, but can barely 2hko bunny...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 360-425 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

I suppose Zygarde SubCoil can theoretically check bunny, but bunny can boost faster than ziggy, so idk.

I've been thinking about useing offensive Roserade as a partner to Diggersby, as it can check Hippo, Chess, Forre, Sableye, Swampert, Bronzong and Lucario with HP Fire or nail Mega Aero and Zygarde on the switch with HP Ice. While beeing able to lay down spikes to pressure the opponent even more. Mega Aero can still be a problem for this core.
Have anyone tried it out?

 

[Patrick1088]

If you can get a sub up before Diggersby gets in, you have a shot with Dragon Tail preventing it from setting up.

Just as a note, Zygarde needs to be at +2 so that Jolly non LO Return wont break the subs, unless you run an alternate spread to the fairly simple252/252 careful spread.

I also run LO Memento + Encore Whimsi as a great partner to sponge the grass and fighting attacks while creating opprtunities to setup and sweep with Bunny.

kokoloko are you expecting the retest to be done before ORAS comes out in just over a week?