Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Stratis]

Also, if you could provide reasons with why you suggest all those changes that would be great, thanks.

Well I made a brief explanation when I said:

I wrote out some changes I felt made sense. I feel they could use discussion, however, I don't expect people to agree or for them to be implemented.

They are changes that would made sense to me and I felt they were worth discussing, which seems to be happening as people give their own opinions. Knowing myself it would take me a couple hours to give my own reasoning for each poke. Some of those are hard to place and since they are debatable it just leads to a difference of opinions and nitpicking. I might type something concrete out later when I feel like devoting more time to it, but I'm sure it would be an annoying large post.

 

[Iron Caliber]

Yeah, Surskit is a reliable Web setter, but that's all it really does. Struggle Bug sounds like a really gimmicky move to put on it, all it has is Scald / Hydro Pump power, and it can only fire off one attack after Sash is broken. Aaron's point about spinners and Defoggers also holds true. Sticky Web only functions one way, to set up for slow win conditions. It doesn't do any damage, and any team with U-turn or Volt Switch (i.e. Pretty Much Everyone) will appreciate having the slower move to generate the extra momentum. Then if Web ever gets spun back or Fogged, all of Surskit's value goes out the window. It has no bulk, a simple move pool, and a single good niche, perfect for C-rank.

Edit: Don't forget that Scraggy also double-resists Knock Off and Sucker Punch. It has some insane switch-in power.

 

[Shrug]

I agree wholeheartedly with Surskit to B-. The arguement against it is essentially "it goes down while webs goes up and the you're six-on-five" which utterly ignores the fact your five now has a huge advantage. Now, your offensive team can run wallbreakers such as bunnelby and have them be effective versus offense as well. Although it's "easy" to spin / defog (not if you can apply offensive pressure but whatever) that can be easily countered with Pawn (who also likes webs); in addition, should every team be forced to run a hazard remover because of webs? The fact that Surskit cannot do much outside of setting webs ignores the true destructive power of webs - it nearly neuters regular offense without hazard cleaners, and by nature can pack wallbreakers to beat stall. The idea that volt-turn prefersto go slower is completely ignoring the fact that most volt-turn teams are in fact fast-with foo and the like.

 

[Celestavian]

I really hate this argument, for any pokemon, especially when it's untrue.

"Scraggy is great for sweeping the low ladder..."

i barely even take the ladder into account when ranking a mon but this is possibly the worst way to implement it. We've established by this point that: THE LOWER LADDER IS TRASH AND LITERALLY PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING CAN SWEEP THROUGH TYPICAL LOW-LADDER TEAMS.

Now for the actual nomination. I already disagreed with scraggy being moved down to B+ but it was already down before i could open my mouth so i chose to hold my tongue and accept it. B is way too low for scraggy. Tell me which other fighting types get access to dragon dance and fantastic, powerful coverage to boot. Tell me which other fighting-type has a pseudo-immunity to status in the form of shed skin. What other sweeper runs a choice scarf set, that when employed late-game, can sweep through teams due to moxie boosts? And most importantly, what fighter can do both? None. I really don't see how scraggy is inferior to any other fighting type in it's roles when none others can perform it. Scraggy has good bulk, great utility through the form of knock off, and many other things which warrant it B+, if not A-.

Feel free to object.

I don't think anyone is denying that Scraggy has a unique niche, what seems to be Scraggy's main problem is that niche isn't as valuable as the niches of the more popular Fighters. Even at its own strengths (boosting and Scarfing), I still usually like to use other Pokemon more. For a Fighting-type booster, I prefer Timburr any day over Scraggy. Insane bulk, lots of power, benefitting from status rather than being semi-immune, priority, defense boosts to let it get past Fletchling, and fewer weaknesses make it more effective than Scraggy against most teams. As for a Scarfed Fighting-type, I usually prefer Mienfoo. Mienfoo has 2 more Attack points, 3 more points of Speed, Regenerator to keep it from being worn down, and the almighty U-turn. In exchange, Scraggy has Moxie, which while good lategame, can be overkill, and you don't really want to use it early or mid-game for fear of weakening your win condition; Scarf Mienfoo is useful at all points of the game.

 

[Good Morgan]

I really hate this argument, for any pokemon, especially when it's untrue.

"Scraggy is great for sweeping the low ladder..."

i barely even take the ladder into account when ranking a mon but this is possibly the worst way to implement it. We've established by this point that: THE LOWER LADDER IS TRASH AND LITERALLY PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING CAN SWEEP THROUGH TYPICAL LOW-LADDER TEAMS.

Now for the actual nomination. I already disagreed with scraggy being moved down to B+ but it was already down before i could open my mouth so i chose to hold my tongue and accept it. B is way too low for scraggy. Tell me which other fighting types get access to dragon dance and fantastic, powerful coverage to boot. Tell me which other fighting-type has a pseudo-immunity to status in the form of shed skin. What other sweeper runs a choice scarf set, that when employed late-game, can sweep through teams due to moxie boosts? And most importantly, what fighter can do both? None. I really don't see how scraggy is inferior to any other fighting type in it's roles when none others can perform it. Scraggy has good bulk, great utility through the form of knock off, and many other things which warrant it B+, if not A-.

Feel free to object.

I would simply like to point out that sweeping the lower ladder was meant as a positive trait for Scraggy. also, i'd like to know of any mon that fails to sweep with boosts. That, my friend, is a weak argument.

Other than that, I second everything Hawkstar said.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

I would simply like to point out that sweeping the lower ladder was meant as a positive trait for Scraggy. also, i'd like to know of any mon that fails to sweep with boosts. That, my friend, is a weak argument.

Other than that, I second everything Hawkstar said.

...ok "friend". Let's think about this logically. A lot of pokemon fail to sweep with boosts: Mienfoo, Fletchlung, Timburr, Scraggy, Vullaby, Spritzee, and pretty much any other mon with a setup move. I don't know how you got a mindset of having a mon set up is automatically a win, but it isn't true. Revenge killers, Get Out Of Sweep Free Cards, and counters all exist to stop setup sweepers from well, sweeping

I don't think anyone is denying that Scraggy has a unique niche, what seems to be Scraggy's main problem is that niche isn't as valuable as the niches of the more popular Fighters. Even at its own strengths (boosting and Scarfing), I still usually like to use other Pokemon more. For a Fighting-type booster, I prefer Timburr any day over Scraggy. Insane bulk, lots of power, benefitting from status rather than being semi-immune, priority, defense boosts to let it get past Fletchling, and fewer weaknesses make it more effective than Scraggy against most teams. As for a Scarfed Fighting-type, I usually prefer Mienfoo. Mienfoo has 2 more Attack points, 3 more points of Speed, Regenerator to keep it from being worn down, and the almighty U-turn. In exchange, Scraggy has Moxie, which while good lategame, can be overkill, and you don't really want to use it early or mid-game for fear of weakening your win condition; Scarf Mienfoo is useful at all points of the game.

Now this is a post I can actually get behind.

All of your points were well-addressed and I agree with pretty much all of them (more than enough to justify me wasting time arguing).

 

[Shrug]

So from other posts it seems the main uses for Scraggy (over other Fighting types) are:
- Intimidate (which actually may hurt because it needs to check Pawn) and Moxie (which is nice but Scraggy is easily revenged)
- the ability to bluff (there's no bulk up mienfoo or scarf timburr)
- a stronger knock off due to the dark-typing

Does that make a B+ mon? Ehhhhh I'm unsure B sounds right for it

About Onix, it's quite good at the stuff that Tahu said (fast SR, taunt, quake edge STAB) but it only has the one hazard (compared to Dwebble who has 2) and cannot Shell Smash so i feel leery about moving it up into the same tier as Dwebble.

One last thing: Bellsprout up to B+. It absolutely destroys teams and can only be revenged killed by specific things that are very predictable, plus having Vulpix and Sprout apart from one another seems silly to me, they're pretty linked

 

[kingmidas]

So from other posts it seems the main uses for Scraggy (over other Fighting types) are:
- Intimidate (which actually may hurt because it needs to check Pawn) and Moxie (which is nice but Scraggy is easily revenged)
- the ability to bluff (there's no bulk up mienfoo or scarf timburr)
- a stronger knock off due to the dark-typing

Does that make a B+ mon? Ehhhhh I'm unsure B sounds right for it

About Onix, it's quite good at the stuff that Tahu said (fast SR, taunt, quake edge STAB) but it only has the one hazard (compared to Dwebble who has 2) and cannot Shell Smash so i feel leery about moving it up into the same tier as Dwebble.

One last thing: Bellsprout up to B+. It absolutely destroys teams and can only be revenged killed by specific things that are very predictable, plus having Vulpix and Sprout apart from one another seems silly to me, they're pretty linked

Intimidate should never be run on scraggy, its other to abilities provide much more to it. It doesn't matter how good it is at bluffing you pretty much lose to the same things. Timburr can BU with it or just use its stronger drain punch at the get go + slower so it gets recover from the blows, if foo gets knock off, it now has acro to hurt scraggy as well. Bellsprout is 100% useless without sun, which is its major drawback. Hippo is getting more popular which also hurts its viability.

 

[Yagura]

Bellsprout is 100% useless without sun, which is its major drawback. Hippo is getting more popular which also hurts its viability.

I don't have much to say about your comments of Scraggy but I've got something to say about Bellsprout as someone who gave it a try lately. People, as well as I, want it to rise to B+ because we totally understand that it totally fits the rank perfectly if we take a look at its description:

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

• These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier: True, Bellsprout does have more flaws compared to A- and S-Rank Pokémon, that's why it wasn't nominated for A rank, the most notable one is that it's kind of useless without sun.
• Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential: Once again true, Bellsprout does require team support in sun which should always be up so that it can preform its role and be a deadly sweeper.

So yeah, Bellsprout does indeed fit the description perfectly. Now for reasons why it should be B+: The first thing is that literally nothing can switch into it safely thanks to its perfect coverage moveset that includes Solarbeam, Sludge Bomb, and Weather Ball which caused a lot of people to nominate it to get suspected in the last suspect test, there are some counters though like Hippopotas (indeed it's getting more popular), specially bulky mons like Max HP SpD Vullaby, Porygon, and Munchlax (bad sets) and lol Chespin but all of those except the latter can be put to sleep with Sleep Powder, this means that you should usually sack something so that it gets revenge killed but even then you won't be able to do so reliably except if you're using Fletchling as Bellsprout is immune to common priority attacks like Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Aqua Jet and it can also evade Sucker Punch and use Sleep Powder, but yeah there are also fast Choice Scarfers like Gastly and Doduo that can revenge kill it with ease.

tl;dr Bellsprout is one of the most feared Pokémon while under the sun thanks to its perfect coverage and high Special Attack and access to Sleep Powder, however it becomes dead weight when the sun is gone. This makes Bellsprout worthy of being B+ rank with Pokémon that are really similar to it like Zigzagoon that is also useless if it can't set up (prio Extemespeed can pick up really weakened targets though but still it's too weak without its Attack maxed).

 

[Tymano]

Intimidate should never be run on scraggy, its other to abilities provide much more to it. It doesn't matter how good it is at bluffing you pretty much lose to the same things. Timburr can BU with it or just use its stronger drain punch at the get go + slower so it gets recover from the blows, if foo gets knock off, it now has acro to hurt scraggy as well. Bellsprout is 100% useless without sun, which is its major drawback. Hippo is getting more popular which also hurts its viability.

Yeah, Intimidate is bad on scraggy, and although scraggy does have moxie, chances are you would encounter fletchling, spritzee, archen, and mienfoo, 4 pokes that will have to force out scraggy so it doesn't die, getting rid of ddance and moxie boosts. Shed skin is good, and scraggy is bulky enough to use it, it can't harm the best status inducer, foongus that well unless you are running Ice punch, which is not that common at all. Plus, timburr is bulkier, mienfoo is faster and stronger, and scraggy is weak to more types, including fighting. Overall, scraggy should be B rank.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

I don't have much to say about your comments of Scraggy but I've got something to say about Bellsprout as someone who gave it a try lately. People, as well as I, want it to rise to B+ because we totally understand that it totally fits the rank perfectly if we take a look at its description:

• These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier: True, Bellsprout does have more flaws compared to A- and S-Rank Pokémon, that's why it wasn't nominated for A rank, the most notable one is that it's kind of useless without sun.
• Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential: Once again true, Bellsprout does require team support in sun which should always be up so that it can preform its role and be a deadly sweeper.

So yeah, Bellsprout does indeed fit the description perfectly. Now for reasons why it should be B+: The first thing is that literally nothing can switch into it safely thanks to its perfect coverage moveset that includes Solarbeam, Sludge Bomb, and Weather Ball which caused a lot of people to nominate it to get suspected in the last suspect test, there are some counters though like Hippopotas (indeed it's getting more popular), specially bulky mons like Max HP SpD Vullaby, Porygon, and Munchlax (bad sets) and lol Chespin but all of those except the latter can be put to sleep with Sleep Powder, this means that you should usually sack something so that it gets revenge killed but even then you won't be able to do so reliably except if you're using Fletchling as Bellsprout is immune to common priority attacks like Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Aqua Jet and it can also evade Sucker Punch and use Sleep Powder, but yeah there are also fast Choice Scarfers like Gastly and Doduo that can revenge kill it with ease.

tl;dr Bellsprout is one of the most feared Pokémon while under the sun thanks to its perfect coverage and high Special Attack and access to Sleep Powder, however it becomes dead weight when the sun is gone. This makes Bellsprout worthy of being B+ rank with Pokémon that are really similar to it like Zigzagoon that is also useless if it can't set up (prio Extemespeed can pick up really weakened targets though but still it's too weak without its Attack maxed).

You made good points, and I understand what you are saying. My only issue is that it relies on another Pokemon to set it up (Vulpix generally) and can't function well on it's own. At least Zigzagoon can, though not recommended, totally use Belly Drum without any support. They do both require a team built around them though. I am conflicted...

 

[Tymano]

You made good points, and I understand what you are saying. My only issue is that it relies on another Pokemon to set it up (Vulpix generally) and can't function well on it's own. At least Zigzagoon can, though not recommended, totally use Belly Drum without any support. They do both require a team built around them though. I am conflicted...

Yeah, bellsprout does not function well without either sd ponyta or without vulpix, as it's good speed is given to it with sun.
Zigzagoon can function well with belly-drum without any support, but you need to bring the other player down alot since it is usually used as a set up late game cleaner.

 

[The Quasar]

About this, I'm playing with it for LC Research. I write my cent about next week. ;)

Quoted from LC Research thread (my message):

I would to know even what are thinking about others dudes, but that's my little cent: I think Minccino is very frail and despite I try with and Adamant nature (not Jolly) and Choice Scarf, I was not able to revenge kill how many I could await. Retaliate was been almoust useless, so I think Aqua Tail or Gunk Shot could be more playable.

...
Minccino: I have been using it for the Research Week, and it is not good. Lol, there is literally no reason to use it over Aipom, unless I am missing something. o.O Even then, it still sucks. It hits semi-hard, but has absolutely no Defense and supports the team in no way what-so-ever.
...

I agree with Aaron's Aron. No defense, many diffuculties to integrate it in a team around, despite its decent physical attack. I believe it could be stronger; considering pokemon which are in C Rank, I think it's better we keep Minccino on D.

 

[Stratis]

I think Minccino is very frail and despite I try with and Adamant nature (not Jolly) and Choice Scarf

There is no reason to run adamant minccino. It only gives you a 6.3% chance to do 1 more damage on your moves that are not tail slap. It's not advisable to use anything by life orb on minccino in my opinion. It stands out enough to be in C but being a powerful wall breaker.

Alright before I start, let it be noted that multihitting moves have their drawbacks like accuracy, flamebody hax, normal dmg resistances, and ferro barbs. These alone turn people away from these type of skill link attackers.

Here is an example attacking a 16 defense eviolite wall:

196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 20-25 (74 - 92.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

Here is some example unrelated to aipom and minccino to give you an idea of how strong this is.

228+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 17-21 (62.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

196 Atk Life Orb Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 19-23 (70.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)

Note that the damage on tail slap does not increase again until 10 defense. Also it does not decrease from 4 damage hits until 20 defense such as koffing where they are only 1 damage attacks.

The only time adamant nature could truly be important to mincinno is when it is hitting something neutrally with 20+ defense. Here is an example.

196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 5-20 (23.8 - 95.2%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)

196+ Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 20-25 (95.2 - 119%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

Aipom does basically the same damage as mincinno however on targets with 16 defense it must be adamant nature to do reliable damage with furry swipes.

196 Atk Life Orb Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 5-20 (18.5 - 74%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 20-25 (74 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

For a last comparison here is adament LO aipom hitting a 20 defense koffing with fury swipes:

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 5-20 (23.8 - 95.2%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)

As you can see Aipom can't actually simulate the damage of minccino on a 16 defense target without running an adament nature. Also mincinno completely out matches aipom when it comes to hitting a 20+ defense target. However a target with 20 defense that takes nuetral damage from normal types like koffing is really uncommon. I think the only other nuetral target with that kind of defense would be shellder but who in the world runs physically defense shellder? Spritzee and vullaby are 2 of the few walls that even bother getting 16 defense. Many other walls only use 14 defense.

I did find one last area of interested. On resisted hits mincinno has potential to do more damage than aipom on targets without eviolite. I'll use scarf/berry juice magnemite as an example. It would the same for noneviolite pawniards. With eviolite or anything over 16 defense resisted hits will always hit for 1's.

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom Fury Swipes (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 5-15 (26.3 - 78.9%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3)

196 Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 10-15 (52.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 15-20 (78.9 - 105.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)

Practically speaking I would say that aipom is better overall, but I don't agree that it completely outclasses minccino. The small amount of bulk aipom has over minccino can be important. Although aipom can not reliably damage 16 def. walls if it's jolly it would also lose out on the chance to speed tie with abra and ponyta by running adamant. The times that minccino has a opportunity to out damage aipom aren't very common but they do exist. Overall I feel that minccino is worthy of moving into C rank.

Oh, here is a quick example to show aipoms superior bulk when they are stranded without eviolite and force to let fletch hit them. This is already getting too long so I won't show more than this.

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Minccino: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22)

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)

Here's pawniards ridiculous LO sucker punch.

236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Minccino: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)

236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

Edit: Updated in response to some of KM's remarks.

 

[kingmidas]

There is no reason to run adamant minccino. It only gives you a 6.3% chance to do 1 more damage on your moves that are not tail slap. It's not advisable to use anything by life orb on minccino in my opinion. It stands out enough to be in C but being a powerful wall breaker.

Alright before I start, let it be noted that multihitting moves have their drawbacks like accuracy, flamebody hax, normal dmg resistances, and ferro barbs. These alone turn people away from these type of skill link attackers.

Here is an example attacking a 16 defense eviolite wall:

196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 20-25 (74 - 92.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 5-20 (18.5 - 74%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
This is sadly true Minccino is better in this one regard but with knock off it makes no real difference.
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 20-25 (74 - 92.5%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+ Knock off damage, gg
196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 20-25 (74 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)
Aipom can afford to run adamant if it needs to, because it has a much better speed tier, it can use u-turn and knock off way better. And this calc is exactly same (I changed 25 bp to 18).

Here is some example unrelated to aipom and minccino to give you an idea of how strong this is.

228+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 17-21 (62.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

196 Atk Life Orb Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 19-23 (70.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)

Note that the damage on tail slap does not increase again until 10 defense. Also it does not decrease from 4 damage hits until 20 defense such as koffing where they are only 1 damage attacks.

The only time adamant nature could truly be important to mincinno is when it is hitting something neutrally with 20+ defense. Here is an example.

196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 5-20 (23.8 - 95.2%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)

196+ Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 20-25 (95.2 - 119%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

Aipom does basically the same damage as mincinno however on targets with 16 defense it must be adamant nature to do reliable damage with furry swipes. Ignore the no move part; this is just to show the damage of an 18 base power move hit to replicate fury swipes.

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom (No Move) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 1-4 (3.7 - 14.8%) -- possible 7HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom (No Move) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 4-5 (14.8 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

For a last comparison here is adament LO aipom hitting a 20 defense koffing with fury swipes:

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom (No Move) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 1-4 (4.7 - 19%) -- possible 6HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 5-20 (23.8 - 95.2%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO

(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)
Remember to set your calcs to 5 hits its much better to set a multihit move to 18 bap and normal. Adamant does the same as this.

As you can see Aipom can't actually simulate the damage of minccino on a 16 defense target without running an adament nature. Also mincinno completely out matches aipom when it comes to hitting a 20+ defense target. However a target with 20 defense that takes nuetral damage from normal types like koffing is really uncommon. I think the only other nuetral target with that kind of defense would be shellder but who in the world runs physically defense shellder? Spritzee and vullaby are 2 of the few walls that even bother getting 16 defense as most only run 14.

You just use knock off on the switch.. and calcs change. Also wtf are you talking about spritzee should always run 16. Also vullaby can reach 18 defense and runs that, please get your facts straight.

I did find one last area of interested. On resisted hits mincinno has potential to do more damage than aipom on targets without eviolite. I'll use scarf/berry juice magnemite as an example. It would the same for noneviolite pawniards. With eviolite or anything over 16 defense resisted hits will always hit for 1's

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom (No Move) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 1-3 (5.2 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3)
Correct Calc:
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 5-15 (26.3 - 78.9%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3)
Adamant does the same.

196 Atk Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 10-15 (52.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 15-20 (78.9 - 105.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)
It has bj why does it matter, you should always knock off anyway, and aipom can either brick break or u-turn out.

Practically speaking I would say that aipom is better overall, but I don't agree that it completely outclasses minccino. The small amount of bulk aipom has over minccino can be important. Although aipom can not reliably damage 16 def. walls if it's jolly it would also lose out on the chance to speed tie with abra and ponyta by running adamant. The times that minccino has a opportunity to out damage aipom aren't very common but they do exist. Overall I feel that minccino is worthy of moving into C rank.

Oh, here is a quick example to show aipoms superior bulk when they are stranded without eviolite and force to let fletch hit them. This is already getting too long so I won't show more than this.

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Minccino: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22)

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
Since minccino is forced to run LO I say it is significant. Aipom can run eviolite, also to the pawn calc, aipom can tank it and OHKO pawn back with brick break.
Here's pawniards ridiculous LO sucker punch.

236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Minccino: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)

236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

Comments in red.

 

[Pancham]

How Chespin is leaning towards staying in C when literally nobody has said anything about it other than me is boggling my mind...

Chespin has niche over Ferroseed and Trubbish as a Spiker by setting up on pokemon like Gastly, Drilbur, Foongus (Tho, Ferroseed can as well if Foongus lacks HPFighting/Fire), Hippopotas, Stunky (Fire Blast does more to Ferroseed than Chespin), and a couple others. It also has the ability to beat Fletchling, like Timburr, through means of Bulk Up and Rock Slide; however, unlike Timburr, it actually has reliable, in terms of LC, recovery. (Timburr has niche over Chespin by being immune to burns, however). Chespin can also beat sand offense, which is currently on the rise seeing as Hippo usage is also on the rise. Chespin can also live an Abra Psychic if you need it to, taking, at most, around 70%HP, and then recover it off later in the battle with ease. I'd go so far as to say Chespin is a superior Spiker in this current metagame than Trubbish is, it's only drawback, really, is the lack of synergy it has with the best spinblocker in the metagame, Pumpkaboo-Super. I see no reason as to why Chespin should be in a spot lower than Aron, Lileep, Magby, Tentacool, Koffing, and even Honedge.

Now, onto the Minccino discussion:

If you're going to be using a subpar Minccino set, a set with Retaliate, and expect it to be good when it has options like Skill Link Tail Slap, I don't any reason as to why it should be expected to do it's job appropriately... ALl you're doing is limiting Minccino's coverage and/or forcing it to not be utilizing utility options like U-turn and Knock Off, which are mandatory on any Minccino set. As for reasons to be using it over Aipom: is there any reason why you should be using Mewoth over Aipom? No, yet why is it that it is in Mid C rank? Because it has niche over Aipom in Fake Out, Feint, Covet, Thief, Hypnosis, and Hidden Power, all with Technician's boost. Minccino should be treated the same way - it has niche over Aipom in being a superior wall-breaker with Life Orb, as well as a great revenge killer while holding a Choice Scarf, as it out speeds Omanyte, Tirtouga, Shellder, and neutral nature Binacle after a Shell Smash (note: it has to be wary of Shellder and Tirtouga using priority). I think Stratis explained very clearly the niche Minccino has over Aipom - doing the same damage to walls AIpom would be doing if it uses Knock Off. Meaning, Minccino can easily break walls like Spritzee and Vullaby without having to use Knock Off. I think this easily gives Minccino enough niche to be in Mid C with Meowth. (Also, as for the argument that Minccino is too frail: it has more bulk than Meowth.)

 

[apt-get]

If you're going to be using a subpar Minccino set, a set with Retaliate, and expect it to be good when it has options like Skill Link Tail Slap, I don't any reason as to why it should be expected to do it's job appropriately... ALl you're doing is limiting Minccino's coverage and/or forcing it to not be utilizing utility options like U-turn and Knock Off, which are mandatory on any Minccino set. As for reasons to be using it over Aipom: is there any reason why you should be using Mewoth over Aipom? No, yet why is it that it is in Mid C rank? Because it has niche over Aipom in Fake Out, Feint, Covet, Thief, Hypnosis, and Hidden Power, all with Technician's boost. Minccino should be treated the same way - it has niche over Aipom in being a superior wall-breaker with Life Orb, as well as a great revenge killer while holding a Choice Scarf, as it out speeds Omanyte, Tirtouga, Shellder, and neutral nature Binacle after a Shell Smash (note: it has to be wary of Shellder and Tirtouga using priority). I think Stratis explained very clearly the niche Minccino has over Aipom - doing the same damage to walls AIpom would be doing if it uses Knock Off. Meaning, Minccino can easily break walls like Spritzee and Vullaby without having to use Knock Off. I think this easily gives Minccino enough niche to be in Mid C with Meowth. (Also, as for the argument that Minccino is too frail: it has more bulk than Meowth.)

I dunno why and how you guys are derailling the discussion with minccino when it is probably the only mon in LC that's purely outclassed in terms of stats and movepool, goddamnit adamant aipom does the exact same damage

196+ Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 20-25 (74 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)
196 Atk Life Orb Minccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 20-25 (74 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

Like you don't even need knock off holy shit, they have the same damage output with adamant
You don't even need the "but adamant is bad on aipom" argument because it's the same fucking pokémon as minccino with adamant but with better stats if you want to use your special snowflake pokémon
now can we move to discussing actually relevant pokémon

 

[kingmidas]

Like maybe the fletchling discussion, I'll just repost my last post since no one replied and levi felt the need to bring it to PS and not post anymore. http://pastebin.com/JBedA8MS For anyone who wants to read.

please list these "archtypes" it ruins. Again you talk about before or during the suspect, its because people clearly overlooked how it required more than enough support to be considered S rank, if anything diglett was more of an issue than fletchling alone. Generally fletchling just ends up losing momentum every turn it uses acro, as magnemite, pawniard, chinchou, they all hit hard as hell and (except in pawn's case) can grab momentum back. No ones run tailwind boo, but yeah it is a viable option I forgot. Though as I said mixed isn't a lure, it beats like 2 of its answers at best, and its on the analysis so people will expect and prepare for it.
Edit: Also I wasn't comparing doublade to fletchling that similarly, just the fact they were both S rank and both are really prepared for. A better example would be fletchling to fletchinder who has will-o-wisp to actually handle its checks/counters, yet its only A in RU.

Ignore the fletching to doublade comparison or the fletchinder to fletchling, people don't like them for some reason.

 

[Iron Caliber]

I definitely agree with Croagunk A- -> A

Croagunk is something I've had on all of my teams ever since I started playing LC, and there's many good reasons for that. It checks a variety of threats with its good mixed offenses and STABs. It resists Fighting, Dark, Grass, and Rock, and, thanks to Dry Skin, is also immune to Water. It's a Knock Off switch in, a Scald switch-in, checks Fairies, and most Fighting-types get scared off immediately upon seeing it. Priority Vacuum Wave OHKOs standard Pawniard. Priority Sucker Punch OHKOs non-Sashed Abra, or sets up Abra for easy revenge killing by breaking the sash. Like many other people have said in the past, Croagunk is the ultimate glue for a team lacking answers to certain threats.

It has an amazing movepool; Knock Off, a variety of priority moves, Drain Punch, Sludge Bomb, even niche moves like Nasty Plot and Swords Dance are available to it. It can go physical or special, though generally a mixed set is the best to use. It can adapt well to a variety of situations, punishing switches with Knock Off or Drain Punch, luring in Shell Smashers, playing priority mindgames. There's not really many things that Croagunk can't do. I wouldn't call it A+ material, but it definitely deserves a higher spot than Cottonee, which only serves as a circumstantial counter to Fighting-types and set-up sweepers. Meanwhile, the coverage moves that Fighting-types take to deal with Fairies are moves that Croagunk resists entirely. Perhaps Cottonee simply needs to move down, but that's for another post.

You have to be really careful with Croagunk, though. Its weaknesses are exploitable; Psychic, Flying, and Ground moves pose a huge threat to it. That being said, it could easily be A+ rank if it wasn't so easy to kill, just due to its sheer utility value and its gigantic list of Pokemon that it checks. When used correctly, it punches holes in most teams and can debilitate key Pokemon easily.

 

[Tymano]

I definitely agree with Croagunk A- -> A

Croagunk is something I've had on all of my teams ever since I started playing LC, and there's many good reasons for that. It checks a variety of threats with its good mixed offenses and STABs. It resists Fighting, Dark, Grass, and Rock, and, thanks to Dry Skin, is also immune to Water. It's a Knock Off switch in, a Scald switch-in, checks Fairies, and most Fighting-types get scared off immediately upon seeing it. Priority Vacuum Wave OHKOs standard Pawniard. Priority Sucker Punch OHKOs non-Sashed Abra, or sets up Abra for easy revenge killing by breaking the sash. Like many other people have said in the past, Croagunk is the ultimate glue for a team lacking answers to certain threats.

It has an amazing movepool; Knock Off, a variety of priority moves, Drain Punch, Sludge Bomb, even niche moves like Nasty Plot and Swords Dance are available to it. It can go physical or special, though generally a mixed set is the best to use. It can adapt well to a variety of situations, punishing switches with Knock Off or Drain Punch, luring in Shell Smashers, playing priority mindgames. There's not really many things that Croagunk can't do. I wouldn't call it A+ material, but it definitely deserves a higher spot than Cottonee, which only serves as a circumstantial counter to Fighting-types and set-up sweepers. Meanwhile, the coverage moves that Fighting-types take to deal with Fairies are moves that Croagunk resists entirely. Perhaps Cottonee simply needs to move down, but that's for another post.

You have to be really careful with Croagunk, though. Its weaknesses are exploitable; Psychic, Flying, and Ground moves pose a huge threat to it. That being said, it could easily be A+ rank if it wasn't so easy to kill, just due to its sheer utility value and its gigantic list of Pokemon that it checks. When used correctly, it punches holes in most teams and can debilitate key Pokemon easily.

Croagunk could actually do well if it wasn't for that one little robin known as fletchling, which has a chance to OHKO it with Acrobatics, and if it has gained another weakness with dry skin, fire, another type that fletchling tends to use (if you use mixed, like me.)
200+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
40 SpA Fletchling Overheat vs. 132 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Dry Skin Croagunk: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 3HKO
Plus physical croagunk is weak to a will o wisp, like most physical attackers in the tier, and can not outspeed a ponyta or Larvesta, both of which can easily come back for the kill, unless there are rocks up from the rock types like onix and archen which are very good as a croagunk partner.
236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dry Skin Croagunk: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dry Skin Croagunk: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Croagunk still has more counters in slowpoke and abra, since it gets rekt by psychic moves in general, and if the abra still has the sash, there is nothing that croagunk can do to stop it, and slowpoke is bulk enough to take a knock off of sucker punch. and hit back with psyshock or psychic.
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 132 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 48-60 (208.6 - 260.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
28 Atk Croagunk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 10-12 (37 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
28 Atk Croagunk Sucker Punch vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 8-10 (29.6 - 37%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
36 SpA Slowpoke Psychic vs. 132 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 28-36 (121.7 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Final estimates, croagunk is a good pokemon that should stay at A- rank.

 

[Shrug]

Croagunk could actually do well if it wasn't for that one little robin known as fletchling, which has a chance to OHKO it with Acrobatics, and if it has gained another weakness with dry skin, fire, another type that fletchling tends to use (if you use mixed, like me.)

Plus physical croagunk is weak to a will o wisp, like most physical attackers in the tier, and can not outspeed a ponyta or Larvesta, both of which can easily come back for the kill

Croagunk still has more counters in slowpoke and abra, since it gets rekt by psychic moves in general, and if the abra still has the sash, there is nothing that croagunk can do to stop it,

I'm confused was this for mienfoo or crogunk, as they both have these same flaws and mienfoo is S-tier

 

[Tymano]

Croagunk+ dry skin is weak to fire

 

[Shrug]

Croagunk+ dry skin is weak to fire

Foo is forced out by Will-o-wisp anyway

 

[Tymano]

Yeah, and same with pawn, fletch, and every single physical attacker in the tier - Timburr and Tailow

 

[Anthiese]

Croagunk+ dry skin is weak to fire

Dry skin just boosts the damage of Fire moves, it's not a technical Super effective hit. it's 1.25 as opposed

I'm confused was this for mienfoo or crogunk, as they both have these same flaws and mienfoo is S-tier

The reason Foo is S Rank is that it's amazing at grabbing momentum from the opponent with U-turn whereas Croagunk can kill momentum. Also it's notable that Foo is faster and hits harder than Gunk. Also their methods of winning against their own type is different. Foo has the Acrobatics option which beats most if not all Fighting types after they trade Knock Offs. Croagunk resists Fighting and can just sit and Drain Punch / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb the night away



I like Gunk tbh, it's good at beating itself and most other Fighting mons. It can check Chou some of the time, and it's valuable against Water/Rock SSers without Ground coverage (which is suicide if they dont have that)

It's shortcomings are massive since everyone is more or less running Psychic to overcome the influx of Poison / Fight threats which Gunk happens to be both. But with it's niche in beating Fighting / Water types / Poison Types (with EQ) it's a great bulky Fighting type. Im a little torn on leaving it vs moving it up however.