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Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Test - Stuck In The Middle With You
- Thread starter Fireburn
- Start date
- Status
Since it is its only ability Gengarite gets banned. They won't change the mechanics because they aim to have everything as close to the games.
Probably true, but Shadow Tag has been getting nerfed like every generation.
Examples:
1. The Wobb and Leftovers situation. Gen 4: Shadow Tag users can switch on each other
2. Chandelure and Gothitelle got Shadow Tag. I don't know the source (I'll assume Dream World OU since Colin had connections), Chandelure was deemed too broken and was given Infiltrator as a hidden ability instead of Shadow Tag.
3. Shadow Tag was further nerfed in Generation 6 by ghosts being able to be switched in.
Even saying that, it's still incredibly powerful. I was playing a tournament, I was the only Mega Gengar user in it since it was allowed. I was netting at least 2 kills a game, commonly setting up Mega Evolution on slow Pokemon, then trapping things weak to it, with Destiny Bond as a kicker to take down another Pokemon it wouldn't normally get.
But even saying that, I don't think it's any more uncompetitive than any of the other broken things in the game. Darkrai, can put an entire team to sleep. It's not banned. Xerneas, can clean sweep teams on Turn 2. It's not banned. Choice Scarf Kyogre, can clean sweep 90% of the meta with little effort. It's not banned. Mega Gengar fits this as a sweeper, and Gothitelle fits this as a stallbreaker and support. It's just another broken strategy.
The only thing I can see uncompetitive about it is if someone intentionally decides to stall 120 turns of PP when they can finish someone off. Then, ban might be in question. Otherwise, it's ubers, so no.
Hope this helps.
-James
Actually you're wrong. Darkrai can't put an entire team to sleep cos sleep clause. Xerneas can't sweep assuredly on turn 2 cos many specially defensive mons and resists exist(ho-oh chople tran blobs), and also prankster twave. Scarf ogre has the tools to sweep, but it's scarfed so something can surely come in on the locked move. Also rain isn't permanent. These arguments you make are just frail cos in all these, I've the option to bring in check/counter, which I can't do if my Mon is trapped.
Now that the thread is calmer than before I'll be posting my opinion about Shadow Tag and why it shouldn't be banned:
While indeed it might be frustrating and hard to play against teams that consist of at least one Pokémon with Shadow Tag, which let's it be kind of overpowered, this ability has by no means an unhealthy presence or is "uncompetitive" in Ubers because unlike Swagger, OHKO moves, and Moody the person using Shadow Tag doesn't totally rely on RNG which made most games luck based because if you get to trap something that threatens your team or disallows one of your Pokémon from sweeping or you end up in a situation where one of your key Pokémon is trapped then it's thanks to your or your opponent's strategy not luck. Keep in mind that you know that the opponent has Pokémon with Shadow Tag at the team preview and you can also easily foresee when it's going to switching in with just some predicting allowing you to play around it with ease.
Those who say that Shadow Tag is "uncompetitive" base their opinion on the fact that it disables switching, which is an important component in competitive battling like, that's true but it isn't enough to make the ability uncompetitive because your trapped Pokémon can often deal with the trapping Pokémon and you can even predict that your opponent will be switching into a STag Pokémon and switch into a counter which allows you to gain the upper hand. Shadow Tag can be OP yes, but it has a healthy presence in a metagame full of OP stuff like Specs Kyogre, GeoXern, and Extremekiller.
While indeed it might be frustrating and hard to play against teams that consist of at least one Pokémon with Shadow Tag, which let's it be kind of overpowered, this ability has by no means an unhealthy presence or is "uncompetitive" in Ubers because unlike Swagger, OHKO moves, and Moody the person using Shadow Tag doesn't totally rely on RNG which made most games luck based because if you get to trap something that threatens your team or disallows one of your Pokémon from sweeping or you end up in a situation where one of your key Pokémon is trapped then it's thanks to your or your opponent's strategy not luck. Keep in mind that you know that the opponent has Pokémon with Shadow Tag at the team preview and you can also easily foresee when it's going to switching in with just some predicting allowing you to play around it with ease.
Those who say that Shadow Tag is "uncompetitive" base their opinion on the fact that it disables switching, which is an important component in competitive battling like, that's true but it isn't enough to make the ability uncompetitive because your trapped Pokémon can often deal with the trapping Pokémon and you can even predict that your opponent will be switching into a STag Pokémon and switch into a counter which allows you to gain the upper hand. Shadow Tag can be OP yes, but it has a healthy presence in a metagame full of OP stuff like Specs Kyogre, GeoXern, and Extremekiller.
Hello, I'd like to share my finalized thoughts. I procrastinated a TON and was super rushed (I was writing part of this between classes and all) but still way longer than I intended n_n
Feel free to comment on this, even though I already posted. Also, I figure since voting is closed it's not a problem if I post my finalized thoughts, since I can't create a bandwagon effect.
It's time.
Last time I was much better at not procrastinating and stuff. Resultingly, this won't be quite as long as last time, as I find myself rushing to get this finished on time. I found my enter key too. I would like to link last suspect vote as a lot of the points still hold true so here it is. Specifically, the earlier philosophy on what constitutes a ban in Ubers and the burden of proof are important. Now, let's jump right in.
So, last suspect test I spent a lot of time identifying what really constitutes a ban in Ubers, and a lot of that still holds true, only the importance of the parts have changed. As last time was the ban of solely Gengar, I struggled a lot with the setting of a precedence in Ubers, and with how the banning of Mega Gengar would be very negative in regard to the Ubers philosophy. This is different however. We are no longer singling out a mon to ban, but were are looking at the inherent uncompetitiveness of an ability, a fundamental function of the game rather than a smaller piece of the puzzle. It's more like the banning the source of abuse rather than the abuser, banning sleep spam rather than banning Darkrai, if you will, but of course with a different variable being substituted in stead of sleep, which is Shadow Tag which functions differently. I'm not at all implying that Shadow Tag is directly comparable to sleep, and that because sleep was deemed uncompetitive, Shadow Tag should be too. I am merely reinforcing my past thoughts on a ban on Shadow Tag in relation to a ban on Gengarite.
Since the precedence piece is less applicable than before, the inherent uncompetitive factor of Shadow Tag is to be weighed. This is not to be said that precedence is irrelevant- it can still effectively be used to counter an argument, for example proving that being weak and losing to Shadow Tag is no different than being weak and losing to any other Ubers sweeper, which will come back later. The increased focus on the uncompetitive factor means that I need to identify this even further, for as with before, making an uneducated decision would be a waste of time.
In general, the definition that I have seen attributed to uncompetitive has been something along the lines of "taking away autonomy to a sufficient degree." To me though, this sufficient degree is hard to measure, as it would theoretically differ from person to person. So then, how can this definition be applied without a common sufficient degree? I think quite possibly the only way we can discern this degree would be by drawing lines based on comparisons to other mons and past bans. Basically, given that, say, Extreme Killer Arceus is not uncompetitive (which I am pretty sure is a safe assumption), anything else that can be proven to be effectively the same does not surpass the "sufficient degree," and even if it is not the same it does not necessarily mean that it is uncompetitve. For that we look to comparisons to Swagger, Sleep spam, Moody, and such things. In short, something that takes away autonomy to a sufficient degree must be determined in regards to things that are given to be above and below that line.
Last suspect test, I wrote a lot filtering through legitimate and illegitimate arguments, but this time, I would like to focus on a few key ones that I find to be particularly important. These are the removal of choice by the prevention of switching, Shadow Tag's uncounterability, and the teambuilding argument. The reason I chose these three was because I feel like they show some of the core arguments by both sides, which I think are the most important to analyze in order to come to a final conclusion.
I'm going to start with the uncounterability point; if you are paranoid about me changing up the order I'm sorry. Regarding Shadow Tag's uncounterability, I do understand that Shadow Tag is a really difficult strategy to outplay. I recognize that Gengar has a surplus of coverage moves, like Hidden Power Fire, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast that beat its common checks, and that Gothitelle has a surplus of support moves, like Taunt and Charm, that can widen and alter what can prevent the effectiveness of its trapping. I agree that it's really hard to counter Gothitelle and Gengar, at least in the traditional sense; I also agree that if you bring a team with members that are easily trapped and removed by Shadow Tag, it is very difficult to play around. With that being said, I think there is a fine line between uncounterability and uncompetitiveness. Something that is difficult to counter does not really take away autonomy, unless it is uncounterable to a point where it cannot lose. As we all know, it is possible to use Shadow Tag and lose- it is not an automatic win button without regards to anything. Now, you could try and argue that Swagger never had a 100% win rate, it was just playing with a loaded dice. This is true. In fact, you could argue that bringing Shadow Tag is in fact playing with a loaded dice, because they could chose a team that is weak to it, and you have a strong matchup that gives you a much higher chance of winning. However, there is a fundamental difference in that Swagger takes away autonomy regardless of what team they use, whereas Shadow Tag still gives your opponent the autonomy to chose a team that is not weak to Shadow Tag. Furthermore, it is true that Gengar can run a ton of coverage moves to beat certain pursuit trappers, but is it really that different from running Overheat/Refresh/Earthquake/Shadow Claw/Shadow Force/Grass Knot/Stone Edge on Ekiller? Sure, some of those are less common, but usage has never been an argument for bans, even in lower tiers. The only fundamental difference is that you cannot switch out. However, let me give an example scenario to show that the lack of an ability to switch is mostly irrelevant. Let's first imagine a scenario where a team has an Arceus-Grass to check an opposing Kyogre. The opposing team has a Gengar, which has Sludge Wave and would easily trap the Arceus-Grass, and a Kyogre. The player is placed in a situation where they need to go to Arceus-Grass, but he also cannot afford to because Gengar comes in and kills him, and then Kyogre wins. Perhaps he even has a Scizor to pursuit Gengar, but it's a Hidden Power Fire variant, so Scizor loses as well. We would consider that player to be in a pretty dire situation right? Maybe Gengar is just uncompetitive? Well, consider this situation as well. A player brings a team with a Leftovers Heatran for his Xerneas check, i.e. he is weak to Focus Blast Geomancy Xerneas. He also has a Giratina-O on his team. His opponent brings Focus Blast Xerneas, but it can only set up on the Giratina-O. He also has a Blaziken. The Blaziken is in on Heatran, let's say, so the player could go to Giratina-O. However, his opponent could either double to Xerneas, which would mean he wins, or he could stay in with Blaziken, hoping to catch Heatran staying in, or if Giratina-O comes in on Blaziken, Xerneas frees in so the player is forced to potentially overpredict Xerneas, or else he loses. It may not be particularly recognizable, but this scenario is very similar to the first. In the first scenario, Gengar getting in on Grassceus loses the game. In the second scenario, Xerneas getting in on Giratina-O loses the game. Our response is one thing that differs greatly though. We look at the first and say that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive. We look at the second and say that the player with the Giratina-O and Heatran should have built a team that wasn't weak to Focus Blast Geomancy Xerneas. Yet, the same result was achieved, even though Xerneas does not have Shadow Tag. Keep this in mind as we segue into my next point.
Let's talk about Shadow Tag's function. It is an ability which prevents the opposing pokemon from switching. At first glance, it certainly seems to take away autonomy. It limits your choices in that you cannot switch. The thing is though, there are plenty of things that limit choice. Taunt limits choice, for example, and in many cases, good plays can limit choice, for example if a hyper offense team relies on Ekiller to revenge a Xerneas with significant prior damage, it is more often than not absolutely forced to Extreme Speed, or else you lose. Whether we immediately recognize it or not, this is a forced decision- not a decision at all. This is not all I have to say though. Experienced players often think broadly. Sure, at some level they think, I am going to switch on this turn. They have broader plans more often than not though. They think, I need to get rocks up, get a bit of prior damage on x, and then set up my y on his z, and then I win. Even when using Shadow Tag, it is, I'm going to use a to trap his b, so that c can win. Think of being trapped by Shadow Tag as a single play which lasts several turns, not as a bunch of individual turns where you can't switch. I cannot force you to think this way, but I think that it is more close to how Shadow Tag works in practice- it is more of an intermediate set up for another pokemon, not something which is created with the purpose of taking away the opponent's control. In this way, while Shadow Tag prevents switches and mechanically takes away autonomy, it does not take away autonomy at a level of complex play. Shadow Tag does not take away autonomy as set by the precedence of other bans. For example, Moody takes away autonomy because what you do is irrelevant, but rather in the hands of the Moody rolls. Sleep spam puts you in a situation where, you can't stay in or else they get free turns, and you cannot switch or your incoming pokemon gets put to sleep and the situation repeats. Swagger literally pits your confusion luck against theirs in favor of their luck, and is easily abusable. OHKO moves won or lost games on the pure accuracy of a move. The difference is, as I've to some degree mentioned and will go in to more depth on, the aforementioned bans banned things that were uncompetitive regardless of beforehand preparation, and the types of scenarios are built on luck, and are unavoidable. Yes, there are 50/50s which come when deciding whether the opposing team is going to switch or attack. However, what I'm talking about is the ability in a vacuum. If you could never switch in any circumstances, the game would just play differently. But if the only move every single pokemon knew was Sheer Cold, Fissure, or Horn Drill, that would be an absolutely awful dice-roll game. In regards to the actually pokemon creating 50/50s, I cannot deny that fact, but it obviously doesn't come into play if your pokemon is not actually trapped by Shadow Tag, something related to my next point about the teambuilding argument.
Going back to the Blaziken, Xerneas, Heatran, Giratina-O example way back in my first major point, you might have been yelling at me for forgetting that Giratina-O runs Shadow Force+Shadow Sneak to prevent Xerneas from setting up, which is a great setup for my next point: the teambuilding argument. To me, this argument has always been really important. The sentiment that Shadow Tag is not outplayed during the match, but it is beaten in the beforehand preparation is a crucial means of drawing comparisons to other pokemon. If you recall, I made a reference to Swagger earlier and how you have the ability to beat Shadow Tag in the teambuilder, but not so much with Swagger. Even when running a Ground-type "check" to Swagger, you did not necessarily beat it and it still forced its luck-based situations. However, if you bring a team with nothing that is trapped by Shadow Tag (for example, bringing Shed Shell Blissey), Shadow Tag as an ability cannot fulfill its purpose of removing a specific check to another threat. Of course, for this argument to stand it must be proven that it is possible to beat Shadow Tag in the teambuilder, which I think it is. There are obviously Pursuit trappers for Gengar, which although many are beaten by specific coverage, so are checks to most Ubers threats, and even those that are the closest to a full counter in Ubers (like Defensive Yveltal for Ekiller or something) would be comparable to Spiritomb I suppose, not that Spiritomb is great in Ubers, but it does consistently beat Gengar, as Yveltal consistently beats Ekiller. Additionally, look at Gothitelle. If a team gives free switches and setup opportunities for sweepers to win games, whose fault is that? Similarly, building a team where Gothitelle can remove members with ease is akin to this. You see, rather than saying that Gothitelle is uncompetitive for removing your Blissey, and complaining how you couldn't have possibly played around that, just build around it, use Shed Shell Blissey. If you build a team where, let's say Sylveon is removed and you straight up lose to Yveltal, that is the builder's fault, and they should rebuild, perhaps maybe not using Sylveon. We are warned against "git gud" arguments, but I feel like if someone built a team that got 6-0'd by Scarf Kyogre we would certainly call out the team and not Kyogre. We're drawing lines in our mind at Shadow Tag because of its difficultly to counterplay, but we're ignoring the build. Now, I believe I saw an argument claiming that running a Shed Shell was sub-optimal, and in doing so we are appeasing Shadow Tag, and thus it is still uncompetitive regardless. I disagree with this- it is not sub-optimal if it is being used to adapt to a common metagame strategy. Something being optimal in the context of the meta is defined by the meta. Looking at Giratina-O, we run Shadow Force on it to stop Xerneas set up. But, if Xerneas didn't exist, I would have to guess we would still be running the standard defensive Giratina-O set without Shadow Force. Being forced to run Shadow Force lessens Giratina-O's ability to check Kangaskhan and Arceus, or lose the Defog utility, which is appeasing Xerneas as a threat, just the same as Shed Shell Blissey. So to sum of these teambuilding points, this is all I'm saying. 1. Shadow Tag is able to be beaten in the teambuilder and 2. Beating Shadow Tag in the teambuilder is not fundamentally different than beating anything else in the teambuilder.
It is clear that Shadow Tag has had a profound effect on the state of the current Ubers meta. It is not a matter of debate that Shadow Tag is one of the strongest abilities in the game, and allows for some very strong teams based around the strategy of Shadow Tag. It is common knowledge that Shadow Tag diminishes the viability of certain pokemon in Ubers, that Shadow Tag is effective in the current Ubers meta, and that Shadow Tag quite possibly will always be a dominant force in Ubers as a tier. However, the nature of a ban in Ubers is far more complicated than "Shadow Tag is dominant, it is good, it is effective, it is broken." The Ubers philosophy requires something that is uncompetitive, something that takes away autonomy to a sufficient degree on par with past bans. It is my stance, that Shadow Tag is all of the former things, it is obviously very good. It is just not an uncompetitive force in Ubers, and thus I will be voting no ban.
tl;dr (More of a rapid fire summary. Just read the whole thing please; there are lots of proof and smaller points that I make in the actually thing. It's like 500 words fewer than last time so I know it's at least manageable ;] but just read the whole thing please)
- Shadow Tag is difficult to play around, but not uncounterable
- Shadow Tag is not fundamentally harder to counter than some other major Ubers threats which are clearly not uncompetitive
- While Shadow Tag prevents switches, the prevention of switches does not take away autonomy at a complex level, only a temporary mechanical level which ignores the bigger picture
- Shadow Tag can be successfully beaten in the teambuilder
With all this considered, Shadow Tag might be an overpowered, overcentralizing asset in Ubers, but it is not inherently uncompetitive and is therefore not banworthy. I will be voting no ban.
Last time I was much better at not procrastinating and stuff. Resultingly, this won't be quite as long as last time, as I find myself rushing to get this finished on time. I found my enter key too. I would like to link last suspect vote as a lot of the points still hold true so here it is. Specifically, the earlier philosophy on what constitutes a ban in Ubers and the burden of proof are important. Now, let's jump right in.
So, last suspect test I spent a lot of time identifying what really constitutes a ban in Ubers, and a lot of that still holds true, only the importance of the parts have changed. As last time was the ban of solely Gengar, I struggled a lot with the setting of a precedence in Ubers, and with how the banning of Mega Gengar would be very negative in regard to the Ubers philosophy. This is different however. We are no longer singling out a mon to ban, but were are looking at the inherent uncompetitiveness of an ability, a fundamental function of the game rather than a smaller piece of the puzzle. It's more like the banning the source of abuse rather than the abuser, banning sleep spam rather than banning Darkrai, if you will, but of course with a different variable being substituted in stead of sleep, which is Shadow Tag which functions differently. I'm not at all implying that Shadow Tag is directly comparable to sleep, and that because sleep was deemed uncompetitive, Shadow Tag should be too. I am merely reinforcing my past thoughts on a ban on Shadow Tag in relation to a ban on Gengarite.
Since the precedence piece is less applicable than before, the inherent uncompetitive factor of Shadow Tag is to be weighed. This is not to be said that precedence is irrelevant- it can still effectively be used to counter an argument, for example proving that being weak and losing to Shadow Tag is no different than being weak and losing to any other Ubers sweeper, which will come back later. The increased focus on the uncompetitive factor means that I need to identify this even further, for as with before, making an uneducated decision would be a waste of time.
In general, the definition that I have seen attributed to uncompetitive has been something along the lines of "taking away autonomy to a sufficient degree." To me though, this sufficient degree is hard to measure, as it would theoretically differ from person to person. So then, how can this definition be applied without a common sufficient degree? I think quite possibly the only way we can discern this degree would be by drawing lines based on comparisons to other mons and past bans. Basically, given that, say, Extreme Killer Arceus is not uncompetitive (which I am pretty sure is a safe assumption), anything else that can be proven to be effectively the same does not surpass the "sufficient degree," and even if it is not the same it does not necessarily mean that it is uncompetitve. For that we look to comparisons to Swagger, Sleep spam, Moody, and such things. In short, something that takes away autonomy to a sufficient degree must be determined in regards to things that are given to be above and below that line.
Last suspect test, I wrote a lot filtering through legitimate and illegitimate arguments, but this time, I would like to focus on a few key ones that I find to be particularly important. These are the removal of choice by the prevention of switching, Shadow Tag's uncounterability, and the teambuilding argument. The reason I chose these three was because I feel like they show some of the core arguments by both sides, which I think are the most important to analyze in order to come to a final conclusion.
I'm going to start with the uncounterability point; if you are paranoid about me changing up the order I'm sorry. Regarding Shadow Tag's uncounterability, I do understand that Shadow Tag is a really difficult strategy to outplay. I recognize that Gengar has a surplus of coverage moves, like Hidden Power Fire, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast that beat its common checks, and that Gothitelle has a surplus of support moves, like Taunt and Charm, that can widen and alter what can prevent the effectiveness of its trapping. I agree that it's really hard to counter Gothitelle and Gengar, at least in the traditional sense; I also agree that if you bring a team with members that are easily trapped and removed by Shadow Tag, it is very difficult to play around. With that being said, I think there is a fine line between uncounterability and uncompetitiveness. Something that is difficult to counter does not really take away autonomy, unless it is uncounterable to a point where it cannot lose. As we all know, it is possible to use Shadow Tag and lose- it is not an automatic win button without regards to anything. Now, you could try and argue that Swagger never had a 100% win rate, it was just playing with a loaded dice. This is true. In fact, you could argue that bringing Shadow Tag is in fact playing with a loaded dice, because they could chose a team that is weak to it, and you have a strong matchup that gives you a much higher chance of winning. However, there is a fundamental difference in that Swagger takes away autonomy regardless of what team they use, whereas Shadow Tag still gives your opponent the autonomy to chose a team that is not weak to Shadow Tag. Furthermore, it is true that Gengar can run a ton of coverage moves to beat certain pursuit trappers, but is it really that different from running Overheat/Refresh/Earthquake/Shadow Claw/Shadow Force/Grass Knot/Stone Edge on Ekiller? Sure, some of those are less common, but usage has never been an argument for bans, even in lower tiers. The only fundamental difference is that you cannot switch out. However, let me give an example scenario to show that the lack of an ability to switch is mostly irrelevant. Let's first imagine a scenario where a team has an Arceus-Grass to check an opposing Kyogre. The opposing team has a Gengar, which has Sludge Wave and would easily trap the Arceus-Grass, and a Kyogre. The player is placed in a situation where they need to go to Arceus-Grass, but he also cannot afford to because Gengar comes in and kills him, and then Kyogre wins. Perhaps he even has a Scizor to pursuit Gengar, but it's a Hidden Power Fire variant, so Scizor loses as well. We would consider that player to be in a pretty dire situation right? Maybe Gengar is just uncompetitive? Well, consider this situation as well. A player brings a team with a Leftovers Heatran for his Xerneas check, i.e. he is weak to Focus Blast Geomancy Xerneas. He also has a Giratina-O on his team. His opponent brings Focus Blast Xerneas, but it can only set up on the Giratina-O. He also has a Blaziken. The Blaziken is in on Heatran, let's say, so the player could go to Giratina-O. However, his opponent could either double to Xerneas, which would mean he wins, or he could stay in with Blaziken, hoping to catch Heatran staying in, or if Giratina-O comes in on Blaziken, Xerneas frees in so the player is forced to potentially overpredict Xerneas, or else he loses. It may not be particularly recognizable, but this scenario is very similar to the first. In the first scenario, Gengar getting in on Grassceus loses the game. In the second scenario, Xerneas getting in on Giratina-O loses the game. Our response is one thing that differs greatly though. We look at the first and say that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive. We look at the second and say that the player with the Giratina-O and Heatran should have built a team that wasn't weak to Focus Blast Geomancy Xerneas. Yet, the same result was achieved, even though Xerneas does not have Shadow Tag. Keep this in mind as we segue into my next point.
Let's talk about Shadow Tag's function. It is an ability which prevents the opposing pokemon from switching. At first glance, it certainly seems to take away autonomy. It limits your choices in that you cannot switch. The thing is though, there are plenty of things that limit choice. Taunt limits choice, for example, and in many cases, good plays can limit choice, for example if a hyper offense team relies on Ekiller to revenge a Xerneas with significant prior damage, it is more often than not absolutely forced to Extreme Speed, or else you lose. Whether we immediately recognize it or not, this is a forced decision- not a decision at all. This is not all I have to say though. Experienced players often think broadly. Sure, at some level they think, I am going to switch on this turn. They have broader plans more often than not though. They think, I need to get rocks up, get a bit of prior damage on x, and then set up my y on his z, and then I win. Even when using Shadow Tag, it is, I'm going to use a to trap his b, so that c can win. Think of being trapped by Shadow Tag as a single play which lasts several turns, not as a bunch of individual turns where you can't switch. I cannot force you to think this way, but I think that it is more close to how Shadow Tag works in practice- it is more of an intermediate set up for another pokemon, not something which is created with the purpose of taking away the opponent's control. In this way, while Shadow Tag prevents switches and mechanically takes away autonomy, it does not take away autonomy at a level of complex play. Shadow Tag does not take away autonomy as set by the precedence of other bans. For example, Moody takes away autonomy because what you do is irrelevant, but rather in the hands of the Moody rolls. Sleep spam puts you in a situation where, you can't stay in or else they get free turns, and you cannot switch or your incoming pokemon gets put to sleep and the situation repeats. Swagger literally pits your confusion luck against theirs in favor of their luck, and is easily abusable. OHKO moves won or lost games on the pure accuracy of a move. The difference is, as I've to some degree mentioned and will go in to more depth on, the aforementioned bans banned things that were uncompetitive regardless of beforehand preparation, and the types of scenarios are built on luck, and are unavoidable. Yes, there are 50/50s which come when deciding whether the opposing team is going to switch or attack. However, what I'm talking about is the ability in a vacuum. If you could never switch in any circumstances, the game would just play differently. But if the only move every single pokemon knew was Sheer Cold, Fissure, or Horn Drill, that would be an absolutely awful dice-roll game. In regards to the actually pokemon creating 50/50s, I cannot deny that fact, but it obviously doesn't come into play if your pokemon is not actually trapped by Shadow Tag, something related to my next point about the teambuilding argument.
Going back to the Blaziken, Xerneas, Heatran, Giratina-O example way back in my first major point, you might have been yelling at me for forgetting that Giratina-O runs Shadow Force+Shadow Sneak to prevent Xerneas from setting up, which is a great setup for my next point: the teambuilding argument. To me, this argument has always been really important. The sentiment that Shadow Tag is not outplayed during the match, but it is beaten in the beforehand preparation is a crucial means of drawing comparisons to other pokemon. If you recall, I made a reference to Swagger earlier and how you have the ability to beat Shadow Tag in the teambuilder, but not so much with Swagger. Even when running a Ground-type "check" to Swagger, you did not necessarily beat it and it still forced its luck-based situations. However, if you bring a team with nothing that is trapped by Shadow Tag (for example, bringing Shed Shell Blissey), Shadow Tag as an ability cannot fulfill its purpose of removing a specific check to another threat. Of course, for this argument to stand it must be proven that it is possible to beat Shadow Tag in the teambuilder, which I think it is. There are obviously Pursuit trappers for Gengar, which although many are beaten by specific coverage, so are checks to most Ubers threats, and even those that are the closest to a full counter in Ubers (like Defensive Yveltal for Ekiller or something) would be comparable to Spiritomb I suppose, not that Spiritomb is great in Ubers, but it does consistently beat Gengar, as Yveltal consistently beats Ekiller. Additionally, look at Gothitelle. If a team gives free switches and setup opportunities for sweepers to win games, whose fault is that? Similarly, building a team where Gothitelle can remove members with ease is akin to this. You see, rather than saying that Gothitelle is uncompetitive for removing your Blissey, and complaining how you couldn't have possibly played around that, just build around it, use Shed Shell Blissey. If you build a team where, let's say Sylveon is removed and you straight up lose to Yveltal, that is the builder's fault, and they should rebuild, perhaps maybe not using Sylveon. We are warned against "git gud" arguments, but I feel like if someone built a team that got 6-0'd by Scarf Kyogre we would certainly call out the team and not Kyogre. We're drawing lines in our mind at Shadow Tag because of its difficultly to counterplay, but we're ignoring the build. Now, I believe I saw an argument claiming that running a Shed Shell was sub-optimal, and in doing so we are appeasing Shadow Tag, and thus it is still uncompetitive regardless. I disagree with this- it is not sub-optimal if it is being used to adapt to a common metagame strategy. Something being optimal in the context of the meta is defined by the meta. Looking at Giratina-O, we run Shadow Force on it to stop Xerneas set up. But, if Xerneas didn't exist, I would have to guess we would still be running the standard defensive Giratina-O set without Shadow Force. Being forced to run Shadow Force lessens Giratina-O's ability to check Kangaskhan and Arceus, or lose the Defog utility, which is appeasing Xerneas as a threat, just the same as Shed Shell Blissey. So to sum of these teambuilding points, this is all I'm saying. 1. Shadow Tag is able to be beaten in the teambuilder and 2. Beating Shadow Tag in the teambuilder is not fundamentally different than beating anything else in the teambuilder.
It is clear that Shadow Tag has had a profound effect on the state of the current Ubers meta. It is not a matter of debate that Shadow Tag is one of the strongest abilities in the game, and allows for some very strong teams based around the strategy of Shadow Tag. It is common knowledge that Shadow Tag diminishes the viability of certain pokemon in Ubers, that Shadow Tag is effective in the current Ubers meta, and that Shadow Tag quite possibly will always be a dominant force in Ubers as a tier. However, the nature of a ban in Ubers is far more complicated than "Shadow Tag is dominant, it is good, it is effective, it is broken." The Ubers philosophy requires something that is uncompetitive, something that takes away autonomy to a sufficient degree on par with past bans. It is my stance, that Shadow Tag is all of the former things, it is obviously very good. It is just not an uncompetitive force in Ubers, and thus I will be voting no ban.
tl;dr (More of a rapid fire summary. Just read the whole thing please; there are lots of proof and smaller points that I make in the actually thing. It's like 500 words fewer than last time so I know it's at least manageable ;] but just read the whole thing please)
- Shadow Tag is difficult to play around, but not uncounterable
- Shadow Tag is not fundamentally harder to counter than some other major Ubers threats which are clearly not uncompetitive
- While Shadow Tag prevents switches, the prevention of switches does not take away autonomy at a complex level, only a temporary mechanical level which ignores the bigger picture
- Shadow Tag can be successfully beaten in the teambuilder
With all this considered, Shadow Tag might be an overpowered, overcentralizing asset in Ubers, but it is not inherently uncompetitive and is therefore not banworthy. I will be voting no ban.
Feel free to comment on this, even though I already posted. Also, I figure since voting is closed it's not a problem if I post my finalized thoughts, since I can't create a bandwagon effect.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Lol if spiritomb beat gengar reliably do you think we'd be having this suspect test? #WillOWisp #TheWoWSetAlsoBeatsStuffLikeGrassceus
This is why arceus-grass is unviable lol, and also why people run multiple geoxern checks, or chople heatran. [: Also you can yknow always switch into heatran again when xerneas comes in..
Anyway a notable difference here is how you actually can just about prepare for every xerneas set, but in a lot of ways you simply cannot prepare for every variant of gengar/gothitelle/wobbuffet.
Stall is inherently reactive, it allows these sweepers set up opportunities because it's able to make the appropriate switch and handle them.
Shadow tag makes lots of pokemon like blissey, arceus-poison, arceus-grass, chansey, sylveon, amoonguss, completely unviable :3 we've accepted that for a while now.
You're not forced to run shadow force, you can easily pair with a couple of better geoxern answers and it's fine, meanwhile in a metagame without geoxern, gira-O is still an awesome offensive threat that can destroy teams on its own.
Honestly I don't think my comments really alter what you're saying but it makes a lot of your precise examples somewhat invalid, or at least provides some opinion on it. I'll leave it to Melee Mewtwo to do a more in depth comment, he's a lot more involved with the theory of this than I am.
And then I'll leave shrang to counter his arguements and the cycle begins again :3 have fun kids
Piexplode
You're not wrong to find fault. I understand that examples may not have been spot on, but the thing is, you're getting caught in the little things and not seeing the broader ideas.
Regarding spiritomb, the point was that other threats don't have perfect counters and even the counters which are pretty close can be matched.
The second point actually reinforces some of the assertions I was making. You call out the teambuilder of the heatran team. And, if grassceus is unviable, why am I seeing it get trapped and cited as a reason for Shadow Tag's uncompetitiveness? This applies to your third point as well. Additionally, I disagree with your saying that you can't beat every set for stag mons but you can for xerneas. It's an unfair comparison, and you don't bring switch ins for shadow tag, you simply don't bring stuff weak to it.
Finally, what I was saying in the last part was that being willing to run Shadow force but unwilling to run shed shell is a flawed concept. Sure you don't HAVE to run force but misses the point.
Sorry if typos/bad grammar, on phone.
You're not wrong to find fault. I understand that examples may not have been spot on, but the thing is, you're getting caught in the little things and not seeing the broader ideas.
Regarding spiritomb, the point was that other threats don't have perfect counters and even the counters which are pretty close can be matched.
The second point actually reinforces some of the assertions I was making. You call out the teambuilder of the heatran team. And, if grassceus is unviable, why am I seeing it get trapped and cited as a reason for Shadow Tag's uncompetitiveness? This applies to your third point as well. Additionally, I disagree with your saying that you can't beat every set for stag mons but you can for xerneas. It's an unfair comparison, and you don't bring switch ins for shadow tag, you simply don't bring stuff weak to it.
Finally, what I was saying in the last part was that being willing to run Shadow force but unwilling to run shed shell is a flawed concept. Sure you don't HAVE to run force but misses the point.
Sorry if typos/bad grammar, on phone.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Yea I think I understand that and you can see where I'm coming from with respect to what you've said.
I know I haven't found anything that totally denies your arguement. As I say, that's up to melee.
And yea worthlessnoob it kind of is unviable, due to mega gengar, gothitelle highly limiting its moveslots, on top of really really really wanting to run other moves like stone edge to hit ho-oh (which it is mahoosive set up bait for) - it doesn't really offer enough security or variety of threats covered (like say palkia) for it to really be easily viable to run, on top of all of its costs with respect to losing to shadow tag.
I know I haven't found anything that totally denies your arguement. As I say, that's up to melee.
And yea worthlessnoob it kind of is unviable, due to mega gengar, gothitelle highly limiting its moveslots, on top of really really really wanting to run other moves like stone edge to hit ho-oh (which it is mahoosive set up bait for) - it doesn't really offer enough security or variety of threats covered (like say palkia) for it to really be easily viable to run, on top of all of its costs with respect to losing to shadow tag.
For something to be considered viable and not a gimmick used solely for the purpose of beating the suspect in question, it must have uses other than beating said suspect, which is not the case with Shed Shell, an item used solely for the purpose of escaping from Shadow Tag users. On the other hand, Shadow Force on Giratina-0 is not used only for Xerneas. Sure, Xerneas is a big reason as to why it's being used, but it's not the only one, as Shadow Force is a strong and spamable move that few Pokemon can take advantage of, serving as a good source of raw damage. So, when looking for checks and counters to a suspect that's considered uncompetitive, those checks and counters must be viable outside of dealing with said suspect.haxiom said:
Just a small thing which I think highlights an important point here. I've noticed that some of the bans proposed for Ubers (S-tag and Baton Pass) lately has a theme of "reactive playstyles tend to be worse off" (not an argument anyone has made specifically, just something I've noticed). I could have easily answered Melee's challenge about 6 pages back about finding a team immune to S-tag that deals with most other threats well (if I felt that was relevant) by giving him just a bog-standard HO team. Well, they might not be completely immune, but I think you all get the point that you can trap something on an HO team and usually it's no big deal (if you can trap anything in the first place). Now, I understand competitive and high-level players for a certain degree look down on HO because it's inconsistent, and I agree with that. However, don't you think that if S-tag is that big of a threat, then maybe reactionary teams like stall and more defensive balance that when things get trapped matter MIGHT be a bit less consistent than you think it is (at least you're going to be having trouble with S-tag)? Something like HO gets looked down upon because it's inconsistent (and it deserves to be), but S-tag is uncompetitive because it makes defensive, more reactionary teams less consistent? Something about that just doesn't really add up for me. It still doesn't change the fact that you're the one who chose to use a reactionary teamstyle and not a proactive one. Personally, I'd prefer to be proactive and dictate play rather than using a playstyle that allow others to do it for me (eg stall).
Something that was brought up on the PS chat which I thought was really relevant here:
Credits to sederts
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Mediocre or bad doesn't equate to unviable. It does have a lot of opportunity cost, but it has a niche. Plus, the point is that MegaGar and STag don't make things automatically unviable. Like you said yourself, Grasseus has many problems, not just Shadow Tag. That's really all I had to say.
Comment on tomb in regards to the suspect test is false.
The only one of those mons that you listed that is completely unviable is Chansey. The others can be used to an extent. (I guess you could argue amoonguss isn't but I like regen) They imply a lot more risk and require at least Pursuit support but they aren't "unviable". (I just avoid using them, personally. I'd rather use an equally good team with less risk.) They also have a lot more issues other than Tag that hurt their viability.
Your portrayal of stall is flawed. Bad stall is inherently reactive. There's a large difference between having a reactive team and one that has more consistent, less prediction based, and longterm options for threats.
No, I'm not going to respond to his post. I've not even read it yet. Gonna do so when I review votes but sure as hell not for this thread.
Your portrayal of HO (and, by extension, stall) is false. Using vague divisions like "HO" and "stall" is already an error when making uninformed blanket statements as there are many different unique concepts that can fall into these wide groups but I'll work with what I can. HO grouped concepts are not all inconsistent. I think the only commonplace one is suicide spikes offense. HO concepts are not immune to Shadow Tag nor is it "no big deal" for them. They could be argued to be less vulnerable to tag than other concepts but I'm not even convinced by that statement as they have short-term, more prediction based options that take less work to bypass. Some concepts will inevitably use slower, tankier mons to provide utilities like SR and switching options as well as checks to threats you can't just outspeed like Kangaskhan. Even concepts that try to focus on a consistent stream of pressure through fast, hard hitters are going to be bothered by Mega Gengar's 110/130 base speed and Gothitelle's ability to turn their speed against them with TR. HO conepts are also not inherently proactive, many bad HO builds are actually reactive and do a very poor job in properly applying pressure.
edit: assumed this was implied but i'm not trying to refute any points here, just call out on bullshit claims about the metagame.
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Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
You have to remember that in that situation you can't roll a die/flip a coin to make your decision. Facial aand other bodily expressions, like in Poker, may often be a key attribute. One could even seriously do some research into random number generators and find one that works in a sufficient manner for playing pokemon [coinflipping is fairly imperfect for 50/50 situations - whilst in some cases it might be close, afaik the worst situation with american coins is like 80/20..]
In Pokemon, I have flipped a coin a couple of times in coinflip situations [and furthermore I found this advice when I think it was obi was discussing mind-games and psychology of battling in Pokemon]
I feel an important difference between competitive RPS and Poker is about getting into your opponent's head. In a situation where it really is a 50/50 (I'm thinking about times in RBY OU matches where I've had instances where it's felt like a 50/50 but due to some other factors it's slightly distinct from that. In that sort of situation if you feel your opponent isn't thinking of it not in terms of a 50/50, then go for the one which gives you a slight advantage) then it may be worth it to flip a coin. I actually have flipped coins before in coinflip situations. If you just go on gut instinct, you do risk your opponent being inside your head. Also at least saying that you're flipping a coin eliminates a lot of the psychological element.
So, if we assume that players playing in the RPS scenarios do treat it as a probabilistic situation and select randomly according to some non-human randomness generator, then the association holds. I dunno if you do it but when faced with those scenarios, I often do.
In Pokemon, sure, you can often get into the opponent's head, BUT in 50/50 situations or ones where the probabilities split similarly with greater divisions, they can perfectly happily declare that they'll use a random number generator to decide upon how they play, and then do so, and you can make it irrelevant, and turn that element of pokemon into a mathematical exercise. If you're taking a game seriously enough, I might well recommend that you do this.
And then, when we say a situation is a Coinflip, or Rock, Paper, Scissors, we mean it, and in the mathematical sense.
In Pokemon, I have flipped a coin a couple of times in coinflip situations [and furthermore I found this advice when I think it was obi was discussing mind-games and psychology of battling in Pokemon]
I feel an important difference between competitive RPS and Poker is about getting into your opponent's head. In a situation where it really is a 50/50 (I'm thinking about times in RBY OU matches where I've had instances where it's felt like a 50/50 but due to some other factors it's slightly distinct from that. In that sort of situation if you feel your opponent isn't thinking of it not in terms of a 50/50, then go for the one which gives you a slight advantage) then it may be worth it to flip a coin. I actually have flipped coins before in coinflip situations. If you just go on gut instinct, you do risk your opponent being inside your head. Also at least saying that you're flipping a coin eliminates a lot of the psychological element.
So, if we assume that players playing in the RPS scenarios do treat it as a probabilistic situation and select randomly according to some non-human randomness generator, then the association holds. I dunno if you do it but when faced with those scenarios, I often do.
In Pokemon, sure, you can often get into the opponent's head, BUT in 50/50 situations or ones where the probabilities split similarly with greater divisions, they can perfectly happily declare that they'll use a random number generator to decide upon how they play, and then do so, and you can make it irrelevant, and turn that element of pokemon into a mathematical exercise. If you're taking a game seriously enough, I might well recommend that you do this.
And then, when we say a situation is a Coinflip, or Rock, Paper, Scissors, we mean it, and in the mathematical sense.
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