Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[Temporaryanonymous]

While I'm usually against quickbans and would like to see a proper suspect test, reading this specific post in the thread has changed my mind:

To the people that are for suspect testing, are you putting aside the ORAS OU ladder thats been established for over a month as an insufficient source to analyze M-Mence's capabilities? This is, by no means, to belittle your opinions. I'd just like some clarifications.

I think the ORAS OU ladder has demonstrated well enough what a problem Mega Salamence was, and how centralizing it was. It's a Pokemon with almost zero counters, and forces people to run obscure checks like scarfing already fast Pokemon to deal with a single threat. What we're looking at here is the bastard lovechild of Mega Pinsir's insane attack and Aerilate (and possible moxie), coupled with Mega Gyarados's physical bulk caused by intimidate. Oh....did I also mention it's insanely fast, has decent special attack, and a reliable recovery move as well? There is no doubt in my mind that I would vote ban if there was a suspect test for it, and I think the general consensus from players and experiences on the ORAS OU ladder has been enough to prove that Mega Salamence is indeed a problem for the metagame.

 

[Alfalfa]

My immediate Knee-jerk reaction was to say Quick-Ban, but a few people are evidently saying they've found counter measures.

That said, I can't think of enough counter-measures myself.

I think for the interrim it might be ideal to try a bit of the Aegislash Suspect method: Make MegaMence and non-MegaMence ladders. Only players who are willing to compete with Mence will play there, so we'll see if they can actually adapt to a Meta Game without it. Meanwhile, we can see if a Metagame without it is healthier.

We had an Aegislash and non-Aegislash ladder because Aegislash had the centralized the metagame to its core, and suspecting it would have regarded forcing the metagame to adapt to all of the Pokemon that got better because of Aegislash. Mega Salamence has not centralized the metagame to its core yet, so quickbanning it is not that difficult.

 

[Alexey]

I am going to reiterate what was said in ~130 posts out of 151 that this thread has as of the moment when I started writing, as there is nothing new to say, but I do want to express my opinion, even if it is redundant.

1) Sets up subs or DDs or both subs and DDs on almost everything
2) Whatever it doesn't set up on can't ever hope to switch in (and it doesn't matter if you resist Flying or not, if you don't quad resist it, you effectively don't resist it at all) even if it didn't get a DD
3) Survives almost everything except quad effective STAB Ice Beams and Ice Punches. The latter two are also ignored when the sub is up
4) Don't even get me started on mixed set
5) Or full special. Correctly predicted the Mence switch and went into Skarm? Eat the Fire Blast. PDef Rotom? Eat a Draco/Hyper Voice. Rhyperior? Hydro Pump. Anything else? Hyper Voice
6) Wanna status it? The MMence's response is "One sec, let me refresh here". Or it is behind a sub.
7) Do you desire not to get automatically get 6-0ed by MMence and have a chance if you are considerably more skilled than your opponent and/or are "in the zone"? Welp, you want to check MMence. Specifically. All sets. At once. Except it can't really be done due to the factors that have been pointed out in points 1 - 6. The best you can have is 2 extremely shaky checks that can't switch into it under any circumstances and defensive mons that are setup fodder and always lose in last mon situation. And don't forget to be a psychic, as you want to get into your opponent's head prior to the start of the game in order to foresee all 4 moves that that specific Mence is running, as well as the EV spread (does this thing outspeed my scarfed Latios after a DD? Welp, only one way to find out...)

tldr Quickban with extreme prejudice

 

[skies]

May I ask what there is to consider? What's holding it back from being quickbanned? Mega Salamence completely reigns over the metagame and can sweep nearly all teams and will most likely succeed at it. It's so good it has its own rank in the Viability Thread. I'm going to have to agree that a suspect test is not a good idea, it would end up being banned and we know that. The ORAS OU metagame is already established and everyone knows how centralizing Mega Salamence is. From all aspects it's broken:

• High Speed + Attack

This is a really important aspect because Mega Salamence has a solid 120 Speed stat and 145 Attack stat. This, combined with Dragon Dance, is a perfect blend of terror. I'd just like to bring up that because of its high Speed, you can't revenge kill it unless you're above 120 Speed. The only relevant Pokemon above this is Greninja, and yes, I have seen a Choice Scarf Greninja to solely revenge kill Mega Salamence. Is it crazy? No. Is it a waste of Greninja? Probably. It's extremely hard to revenge kill via Choice Scarf because of this.

• Aerilate

If Mega Pinsir is any demonstration of power, then we all know how powerful Aerilate can be. For example, we were worried about Mega Pinsir and it's considered very hard to stop; but imagine a Pokemon with higher Speed, higher bulk, Dragon Dance, and a better typing than Mega Pinsir, and you have Mega Salamence. Mega Salamence also has Intimidate pre-Mega and will gain this boost in bulk from this. Aerilate is an amazing ability in itself, but it allows Mega Salamence to tear things down with Return, which has no drawbacks whatsoever and is insanely strong.

• High bulk

95 / 130 / 90 is nothing to mess around with, and it's even higher thanks to Intimidate. Think of it like this: Mega Salamence has the same HP stat as Mega Slowbro, same Defense stat of Lugia, and the same Special Defense of Magnezone, all wrapped into one cute package. To put it into perspective, Mega Salamence has one less Defense stat than Ferrothorn. Crazy. This is without even factoring in Intimidate. With Intimidate, however, it reaches around 180 if I calculated correctly. Do note that this was by using the old calc, as damagecalc is down, so it's probably inaccurate. Just know it's high!

• Centralization

Mega Salamence has centralized the metagame so much that it has become revolved around it, making sure you have a revenge killer, two fat walls to wall it, and way to place pressure on it to prevent it from setting up. Honestly, if it sets up it's practically over for your team. There's also the fact that Mega Salamence hurts the viability of other megas, because why are you not using Mega Salamence? For example, why would I use Mega Pinsir now when Mega Salamence is far superior? It's just too good and constrains teambuilding.

All in all, I think it needs to be instantly banned. I don't see why we need to suspect it or how it's not banworthy.

 

[AM]

I'm a pretty anti-ban guy for the most part but even I can agree M-Salamence is just dumb and will never promote any sort of positive growth for OU. Everything else has already been established for the most part in terms of why it should be banned. It's been one month and in one months time people have tried building teams to check M-Mence yet big surprise, they can still lose to M-Salamence. Besides what everyone else has covered I want to reinforce how easy it is for a player, specifically newer less experienced players who don't have any concrete understanding of the tier, to BS through a match simply because of the power and versatility M-Salamence provides. These ideas presented by a few that it should go through a suspect test is going by this faulty logic that our teams are all going to be Rhyperior, Mamoswine, Weavile, Porygon2, Rocky Helmet Cresselia, Thundurus in one team. If you want to establish a healthy meta where all play styles are equally viable, not a race to see who sets up first with M-Salamence, and discourage a meta where players know from team preview who will win, don't bother with a suspect test. There has been no fundamental changes to warrant one and as such the ORAS ladder is for the most part a very good representation of both an M-Salamence meta and one where M-Salamence puts the tier in a chokehold by not only adapting within itself to beat the answers to it, but adapts the meta so that it provides its teammates opportunities to win with ease and a lack of competition.

Quickban

 

[HolyAvatar]

Alright,MegaMence has great bulk,abilities,moves,recovery and stats.It has all the needed juice to be in Ubers,nothing can check it because of the amount of sets that this thing can run.So why not ban it?It's given Ice type Pokemon a chance to shine,I'm not saying it's OU worthy,hell no.I'm just saying that give it some time,we've already got Weaviles and Mamoswines and ScarfNinjas running around like nobody's business and,we've still to see MegaGlailie who looked quite threatening on paper imo.

Do not quickban MegaMence.
Give the meta sometime,I'm sure we'll find ways of dealing with this thing.If not,well,we can always put it through a suspect test :)

Ice type has always been one of the best offensive types if not the best. But it is a horrendous defensive typing. Giving a pokemon "a chance to shine" because it one of the very few offensive checks to an overpowered threat (and they need to be banded) is just not an argument and is unhealthy to the meta-game. It's not like Salamence is trapped, it can switch (even more esily now that you're choice locked) and have his wear you down and you'd have to sack a mon everytime mence comes in or risk having your check destroyed by 145 ATK aerilate STAB frustration and get swept.

Mega glalie is inferior to mamo and weavile for revenge killing mence since no item 120 atk ice shard MUCH weaker than 120/130 atk with LO or CB. It is honestly a rather bad mega for OU because of his less than stellar stats, middling speed and awful defensive typing. Refrigerate explosion is strong but you're blowing up your mega to take a mon with you.

I don't know why I even answered since you're an obvious troll stating that it is broken then be against the ban. You should also inquire about the ban policy in Smogon and get to know what can cause a mon to be banned.

 

[HikozaruYes]

I think Mega-Mence is over centralizing in several ways. You need to have one on your team, as there's no good reason why not, but you also have to have a check or "counter" for it, which many posters have established is near impossible, and it severely limits the use of other mega pokemon, so I vote think it should be Quick-Banned.

 

[SilverPT]

May I ask what there is to consider? What's holding it back from being quickbanned?

Smogon trying to dissuade you into thinking that they're not elitists by giving us the chance to decide the fate of a mon that clearly should be banned as soon as the game came out.

Having a boost in all stats was just too much for this mon. 145 base Atk Return/Frustration/Thrash/Facade/Double-edge boosted by Aerilate is wreaking havoc in OU and there are very few checks to handle Mega Salamence. Neither revenge killing or absurd counters are the answer. Quick ban.

 

[PlatypusPrincess]

Just ban it already. We didn't suspect test Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, and Arceus to ban them, so why exactly should we wait with MegaMence. Like the legendaries stated, MegaMEnce has an unfair combination of bulk, power and movepool which makes it too much to handle for the meta.
If MegaMence dosen't leave this meta instantly, I would like to consider testing Mewtwo in OU, because what is the difference?

 

[Holy Dom]

M-Aerodactyl: taunt, DD o sub will fail, 1/2 by flying and fire, immune to HQ---> icefang with 135atk+ Tough Claws, 1HKO.

There's a few things wrong with this. For one, Mence isn't switching into M-Aero and probably won't be staying in on one after a double down, which is what your post is assuming.

Second, I'm pretty sure M-Aero isn't OHKOing M-Mence with Ice Fang. If it can (I don't know the calc for it and can't check since the showdown calc is down) then that means it doesn't have enough bulk to take 2 Returns after Rocks (I doubt it can take it without Rocks if it's a Max Attack Adamant Mence but, as I said before, I can't calc it). So it needs Roost.

Now if you're dedicating your Mega Slot to a Taunt, Roost, Aerial Ace/Stone Edge, Ice Fang Aerodactyl, that honestly seems pretty horrible against anything that isn't a Mence, and still can't check/counter every Mence variant, then that shows how broken it is.

It's similar as to when someone said Baton Pass wasn't broken because something like Switcheroo Infiltrator Spiritomb could beat it. Or Sash Topsy Turvy Malamar.

The issue isn't whether or not it can be beat, because Landorus-T is a solid check to Extreme Killer Arceus in Ubers, and Klefki and M-Scizor are fairly good answers to Xerneas. Sleep Talk Heracross (even moreso Mega Hera since it can break any Subs) beats Darkrai practically 100% of the time, and Swift Swim Ludicolo can be used as a check to Kyogre. The reason why they're all in Ubers regardless of all of this isn't because of whether there are some answers to them or not. It's because of how powerful and overcentralizing they would be in the tier.

This is the same case for Mence. Try to play an ORAS game where you don't see a Rotom-W, Heatran, Slowbro, Mamoswine, Weavile, Scarf Latios, or etc. Mence is by far the most overprepared for, and overcentralizing mon the tier and yet it's STILL the best and most overpowering mon in the tier. There's no justifying it, it's just broken as hell, regardless of what makeshift set you make to check it. The same as how M-Kanga was broken regardless of if Rocky Helmet Skarm or Trevanant could deal with it reliably. And how Blaziken is still broken regardless of if Talonflame can always revenge it, and if Latias, Azu, and Slowbro could take a hit and OHKO in return. Because if you don't have these specific checks, you more than likely don't have a chance of beating it.

 

[Norne]

Just ban it already. We didn't suspect test Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, and Arceus to ban them, so why exactly should we wait with MegaMence. Like the legendaries stated, MegaMEnce has an unfair combination of bulk, power and movepool which makes it too much to handle for the meta.
If MegaMence dosen't leave this meta instantly, I would like to consider testing Mewtwo in OU, because what is the difference?

PR issues, you could go to the FB page and laugh at the nonsensical antismogon rants, get gud comments and Ban everything bar metapod jokes it's painful to see the singles metagame ignorance of most people.

We have had almost 10 pages of people who tested this I'm our simulator for 2 weeks, and 90% of those found it cancerous to the game as he has elements from mawile(Forces switches, only checks) , aegislash(unpredictability, team composition super glue), lucario(the would be checks are easily worn down and checking it depends in it set), khangaskan(Easy to achieve winning condition and overcentralization) I would even put mega gengar in the fact that it will always do what he wants and fulfills it's role in the team regardless of the other player team composition, With the adding bonus of forcing switches and killing the other player momentum just by coming into the battlefield but that's debatable.

This thing needs to go As Fast as Possible, let the nonsensical smogon haters hate, OU needs this thing gone so it can actually grow into a healthy metagame for singles.

 

[Sir Aaron's Lucario]

As problematic this my be we should do a suspect test to gather further data on the situation first. A quick ban my not be necessary in this case.
However it still feels over centralizing to the metagame as it forces teams built around countering it.

 

[DoctorSchmosby]

Speaking of Mawile, I went back and read the suspect thread for that thing, and as uberly powerful as it is, its banning was the subject of a massive debate. That there's barely any debate whatsoever regarding the banning of Salamence should speak volumes.

 

[Firebird101]

As problematic this my be we should do a suspect test to gather further data on the situation first. A quick ban my not be necessary in this case.
However it still feels over centralizing to the metagame as it forces teams built around countering it.

We've already have enough data on the ORAS ladder which ran for few weeks or so and Mega Salamence was way too dominating in that ladder and letting it stay would only prove further how broken Mega Salamence is as it gets to explore it's wide movepool more to beat whatever checks people come up with.

Speaking of Mawile, I went back and read the suspect thread for that thing, and as uberly powerful as it is, its banning was the subject of a massive debate. That there's barely any debate whatsoever regarding the banning of Salamence should speak volumes.

Try reading the Aegislash suspect thread if you want a massive debate xD

 

[TaBuu]

7 pages worth of discussion and 160+ posts that all say pretty much the same thing lol. its funny to see how everyone feels the need to repeat the same ideas over and over. but hey, i guess i'm no different hahaha
no need for discussion imo, casting votes is more than enough~
one quickban on megamence for me please

 

[Tressed]

I'd honestly rather see Deoxys-N, Darkrai, and Ho-Oh in OU than see Mence stick around. At least those three have weaknesses that could possibly make them manageable, lol.

Norne Just checked FB, thanks for the laugh. :)

littlelucario No, here he is though BlackLightAttack

 

[MANNAT]

I'd honestly rather see Deoxys-N, Darkrai, and Ho-Oh in OU than see Mence stick around. At least those three have weaknesses that could possibly make them manageable, lol.

Norne Just checked FB, thanks for the laugh. :)

are you blacklightattack?

 

[ginganinja]

Alright,MegaMence has great bulk,abilities,moves,recovery and stats.It has all the needed juice to be in Ubers,nothing can check it because of the amount of sets that this thing can run.So why not ban it?It's given Ice type Pokemon a chance to shine,I'm not saying it's OU worthy,hell no.I'm just saying that give it some time,we've already got Weaviles and Mamoswines and ScarfNinjas running around like nobody's business and,we've still to see MegaGlailie who looked quite threatening on paper imo.

Do not quickban MegaMence.
Give the meta sometime,I'm sure we'll find ways of dealing with this thing.If not,well,we can always put it through a suspect test :)

Hey can I highlight this bit right here.

I'm not saying it's OU worthy,hell no

You just called it uber worthy, or "broken", Even your entire anti quickban post actually ends up supporting a quickban as there is no reason to keep something in the OU meta that you already agree is broken.

Just boot this cancer from the metagame plz.

 

[PangoroHat]

i think as long as mega mawile and aegislash are banned, there's no reason not to quick ban mega mence because it is obviously a lot more broken than the former two. also aegi and mawile could help dealing with mence potentially.
to clarify my point of view, i was opposed to both mawile and aegi ban and i would support leaving mence if the other two were unbanned. but since most people wouldn't want that, i fancy a mence quick ban.
also there are tournaments running whose players have to quickly adapt to oras and for such, mega mence would be aids.

anyone that wanted to abuse it and have fun 6-0 ing teams or setting up on counters (being able to set up on rotom-w is just stupid) was able to do so on the other metagame oras ladder and there's no point expanding that time on the regular ladder.

so yeah, quick ban or leave be and unban mawile and aegi, but that won't happen, so that's that.

 

[Norne]

i think as long as mega mawile and aegislash are banned, there's no reason not to quick ban mega mence because it is obviously a lot more broken than the former two. also aegi and mawile could help dealing with mence potentially.
to clarify my point of view, i was opposed to both mawile and aegi ban and i would support leaving mence if the other two were unbanned. but since most people wouldn't want that, i fancy a mence quick ban.
also there are tournaments running that whose players have to quickly adapt to oras and for such, mega mence would be aids.

anyone that wanted to abuse it and have fun 6-0 ing teams or setting up on counters (being able to set up on rotom-w is just stupid) was able to do so on the other metagame oras ladder and there's no point expanding that time on the regular ladder.

so yeah, quick ban or leave be and unban mawile and aegi, but that won't happen, so that's that.

Actually non HP ice aegislash is setup folder to Msalamence. And mawile can't stomach a fireplace from 120 spa if it has some investment. Those are soft checks to be honest.

 

[PangoroHat]

Actually non HP ice aegislash is setup folder to Msalamence. And mawile can't stomach a fireplace from 120 spa if it has some investment. Those are soft checks to be honest.

i didn't mean to say that they were actual checks and i do agree with you one100

i think the real issue with mence will be that of mega luke, there are too many options. you can counter the sub-set and get blown back by dd 3 attacks or you can counter physical sets and get blown by mixed and so on ..

 

[Thunderorange]

Mega Salamence is trash. He fails to OHKO focus sash Magikarp at +6 and is killed by sneasal's ice shard at -6 defence with a crit. In addition according to damage calc if you reduce his base attack to 10 he can't kill pikachu with a return. Imo he should be dropped to PU or if the council can make an exception even be allowed in little cup.

(Seriously just ban it already. It's ridiculously broken)

 

[Flare Blitzle]

The tier is absolute trash thanks to it. It's literally running OU right now. Absolutely disgusting bulk (esp considering Intimidate), it sets up on a bunch of stuff it shouldn't be able to, a massive movepool means some people aren't using the common SubDD set so switching that Rhyperior in isn't always safe until you know what set it is but at the same time you can't afford to give it a free turn, forces you to run a bunch of stuff you don't want to so you can have some sort of semblance of beating it - that doesn't actually beat it or stop it setting up in a lot of battles, it just slows it down a little, and it can single-handedly carry games on its own/bring back a game that you should have lost because it sets up so easily.

The few people wanting a suspect test: What exactly do you think a few more weeks will change? It isn't going to become any less broken, and 99% of the playerbase aren't suddenly going to change their mind and vote it OU (because it's clear as day it's a broken piece of shit that is unhealthy to keep around). People have been scrambling around to find answers to it for the last month so it's not like it's only been a few days of testing.

Just quickban it. Mega Mence has a massive stranglehold over the entire tier and it's ruining it. (I know I have very little interest in playing OU atm because I'm sick of this thing.) Don't waste time with a suspect test when we all know it's going to get banned, just ban it. Cut off the infection.

 

[astroboy]

With great bulk, incredible attack, great speed tier, amazing ability (both pre and post mega), MegaMence needs to get out of OU. Even if we suspected it, it'd just waste time. MegaMence is literally ruining this meta, and i will most definitely support it been quickbanned.

 

[Pancham]

It is about time...

I played a couple of battles in ORAS OU, and it seems if you dont overpreapre for Salamence it sweeps you, but then that leaves you open to be swept by somehing else like Gallade, while if you underprepare for it and try to balance your team out to check other threats, Salamence has a field day. Between Salamence and Greninja, ORAS OU is quite the broked metagame.