Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[Argue]

Honestly, just initiate the quick ban already. M-mence is very centralizing.

Teams now consist of weaviles, skarm, mzone, mamo cores just to handle the game.

What kind of meta is that? Not fun at all. It was so so sad too, people were using aim's team he showcased on YouTube to quickly ladder to the top. That's how much of an exploit there is.

M-mence exploits everything and gets easy wins. He destroys everything in the OU tier with ease. Always has guaranteed OHKOs and 2 ohkos.

His defense is superior and does not die to his weakness with eases. He's very durable.

All the priority moves that exist do NOTHING to him.

I was upset I used pixelate hyper voice with sylveon on him, I got a low row, he lived. He then attacks me OHKOing me with return. I send out azu to revenge kill and he still lives! He had 24% and it only did like 16%.

I know it resists but still he's just too much to deal with, because once my answers to him are dead, he reigns supreme in sweeping the whole team.

He's an excellent wall breaker too, so versatile, running either special or physical or both! It was challenging to ladder on the beta stage of ORAS because every team ran that thing and it was an automatic loss half the time because he's just too powerful.

Honestly, suspect test shouldn't even be considered! We already experienced the power for a month more or less! It's obvious that thing needs to be sent to hell lol.

Right now the meta is redundant because everyone uses that thing for an auto W. Please make this meta fun and quick ban so we can finally have a fair competitve meta.

Honestly if that thing stays, it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight, there's no chance against that abomination.

Conclusion: Please quick ban

 

[Tetragrammaton]

10+ pages is, in my opinion, enough of a sample size to come to a consensus; the majority of players from my read-through seems to want Mence gone sooner, rather than later. Mega Salamence is over-centralizing, (unless this is the Twilight Zone and that word no longer means "becomes the center of the metagame orbit forcing everyone to r/evolve their teams around it,) full stop. Even the "(almost) anything goes, no-holds-barred" options for teammates in Ubers are having trouble with Megamence. I can think of multiple cover-legendaries that OU would have a better time countering compared to this behemoth! Does that mean we should drop some things into OU to deal with it, as a sidenote? Hell no. Fighting fire with fire only leaves the whole world burned; this thing has the stats and the versatility of an ubers 'mon and to Ubers it should go. It will thrive there but at least some things (... I'm not sure what, exactly, at this point, after those damage counts from Malkyrian...) will be able to give it some pause for thought. Let it reign wild in free in an ecosystem where it has to fight for the top. Here it's just an invasive species supplanting all the native wildlife. =_=;;

Quickban Mega Salamence, or at least Suspect Test so it can be irrefutably proven as unhealthy for the metagame (even despite the fact that we've had like a month to come to that conclusion. :/ ) It just needs to go; this is not the place for it. It will never be the place for it. If Megamence stays OU will stay, too -- the same, that is. If you love something, let it go... *whistles innocently*

 

[Ranger Mike]

56k to be honest, you seem like some Mega-Salamence fanboy, and you just want it to stay in the tier because you like this mon' and you're happy it's going to be free from BL.

You're being 100% FORCED to bring Mega-Mence Counters/Checks, or else you're shitted on by Mega-Mence teams always. Saying "your team is bad because it doesn't have a mega mence counter, n00b! ahahah" is the most retarded arguement. That's basically the definition of constricting team-building and over centralization. Don't tell me you never said that, because I can quote you.

This is rather flawed there are a lot of centralizing mons throughout the tiers of smogon, let's say you are new to nu and are not prepared for feraligatr, that means you are swept by feraligatr. Feraligatr is not broken in nu (imo). If you don't want me to use nu for an argument then let's say that you are new to ou and have no stop to keldeo. Keldeo is somewhat centralizing but in no way, shape, or form broken yet you will still be swept by it because you did not prepare for keldeo. I still think that mega mence is really broken but I just wanted to point out that this point in your argument was somewhat flawed.

 

[Classfactions]

Salamence Mega

Aerilate
HP 95 Atk 145 Def 130 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 120 BST 700

i would say the only reason he should be banned is it seems his usage and way teams form counters just for him reminds me of mega khang. Ive only peaked at around 1500 so im by no means excellent at the game but, according to all other smogon bans, they banned stuff detrimental to the development of the meta right?? Mega sala is definitely remaking the meta around him, much like how aegislash and mega khang did. Just that thought process alone should make him ban worthy. Also a DD'd salamance is pretty much impossible to kill.

 

[HackerKing]

This is rather flawed there are a lot of centralizing mons throughout the tiers of smogon, let's say you are new to nu and are not prepared for feraligatr, that means you are swept by feraligatr. Feraligatr is not broken in nu (imo). If you don't want me to use nu for an argument then let's say that you are new to ou and have no stop to keldeo. Keldeo is somewhat centralizing but in no way, shape, or form broken yet you will still be swept by it because you did not prepare for keldeo. I still think that mega mence is really broken but I just wanted to point out that this point in your argument was somewhat flawed.

I agree. I'll try to amend the idea of something that's broken to a centralizing pokemon that forces you to significantly compromise your team by countering (either by forcing multiple counters like M-Blaziken did) or by making you run super obscure sets solely designed to counter the pokemon (like people did when M-Khangistan was around).

If we look at this, we can clearly call Mega-Salamence broken. People are devoting 2-3 team slots just to counter M-mence. Worst, almost all of the pokemon that can counter M-mence are weak to fighting, so if you are against a M-Galade player, you're fucked. It forces players to severely compromise teams just to try to check it.

 

[Gary]

Jesus christ people fucking stop. I understand that it's our duty to educate people on the metagame and point out their flaws in their posts so they can improve, but there's no point in continuing a 3 page argument with someone who's clearly ignorant but has no intentions of wanting help. Not trying to be rude to the poster, but I'm just making a point. There have been dozens of very competent players that have tried to help him, yet he seems to completely ignore everything they're saying and continues to go off on his own little personal opinion that's getting him no where.

I'm not trying to call him out or anything, but he did bring up a very commonly used suggestion that drives me insane every time I see it. The "let's drop down broken shit from ubers in order to check broken shit in OU" suggestion is one of the worst ways to handle a potential broken Pokemon. Think about it, if we always brought down Ubers to check things, eventually OU would basically be an Ubers tier itself. For example if we brought down something like Mega Lucario in order to check shit on offense, then stall would start to suffer again, so why not drop down Lugia? Oh shit Lugia is too bulky and makes offense much less viable, lets drop Darkrai to combat it and promote offense. Do you really want that to happen? Again, I'm just theorymoning, but you can't deny that something like that could eventually happen if we went down that path.

Anyways, yes there are things that CAN check Mega Mence, and some of those Pokemon are indeed very viable in OU. However, I've yet to see anything reliably beat it. And that's what I'm getting at here. How can you consider something a check to Mega Mence if it only sometimes accomplishes its job? Mega Venusaur is a reliable check to Azumarill because there's absolutely nothing it can do to OHKO it. Something like Greninja for example CAN check Mega Mence, but what if it happened to get a +1 boost, it can no longer check it. Mamo can 2HKO Mega Mence with Ice Shard, but if Mence happens to be at +1, it can eat up one Ice Shard and OHKO you the following turn. Other common Pokemon that he mentioned, such as physically defensive Tyranitar, Porygon 2 (is this Pokemon really considered THAT relevant?), and Skarmory can all be easily stalled out in the T-tars case, easily handled or overwhlemed by a teammate in P-2s case, or beaten by its other sets. It takes an EXTREMELY bulky Pokemon like Mega Slowbro to even come close to reliably dealing with Mega Mence, and even then I'd hate to devote my entire Mega slot and EV spread JUST to reliably beat ONE Pokemon in particular. Doesn't that just prove Mega Mence's ridiculousness by itself?

But yeah I would advise we just move on from that argument and focus on realizing that Mega Mence has still managed to completely fuck well built teams that devote themselves to preparing for it. It's not even centralizing the meta, it's ruling it. Why even bother keeping it around any longer. The meta has had a good month to adapt to it, and it's gotten no where.

 

[Salemance]

I really, really hate this thing more than ever now. It was fine in BL, but no it had to suddenly evolve to own all. He is probably the least fun part of the meta since early XY and the sooner we can move on from this the better.

Quickban the thing please. Its annoying packing three or so checks to him only to realize you've neutered your team to handling the rest of the meta.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I have had porygon 2 on every team and because of that I never felt too threatened by megamence. Basically I am saying he is a very reliable way to handle it and honestly my teams have all been able to handle it and I've done pretty well on ladder and various ou tourneys. That being said, it's obvious that the only reason I've done so well is because I basically just counter team megamence/greninja/ferrothorn/magnezone/latias/filler. So because of his presence you only have two options, abuse him, or drastically over prepare for him. This is obviously unhealthy and is the main reason he should be quickbanned. But yeah there is an obvious consensus for quick ban so I think we can all just move on and put this behind us.

 

[DaVolterbomb]

Unlike any other Mega so far, when you see that +1 on MMence, you know its time for you to get 6-0'ed. Priority can't do shit cause it has recovery and amazing defense. +1 Return 2HKO's or OHKO's most of the meta, and if it doesn't, Fire blast will, and if fire blast doesn't, EQ will. the guy has so many viable ways to be an amazing mon, it literally singlehandedly shits the meta. Its over centralizing, you have to run atleast 2 pokemon to revenge kill this little shit, it has amazing coverage, pretty much destroying every OU mon with +1 boosts. The only way you can possibly KO it is if you have someone with Ice shard that can KO it, and no one can! Also lets not forget his sub set, that stops all WoW users bar Sableye.

This thing just is so powerful, easy way to win games, worse than BP, easy noob fodder. All you gotta do is press that button that says Dragon Dance, and you win.

so, smogon, "Return" us a favor and please ban this thing.

 

[elodin]

Mega Salamence has to go for several reasons. Let me list some of them:

• There are no counters available against this thing in OU: It just muscles through anything you try to send to stop it. Skarmory and Ferrothorn just get blown by Fire Blast, Landorus-T can't tank Return, Rotom-W is a free setup opportunity against Sub variants, Zapdos is bad (and shows how desperate people are to get a good answer to it) etc. There are no reliable counters to it afaik, and your best bet against it is using some way to revenge kill it, such as Thundurus, Weavile or Mamoswine (Weavile is bad and shouldn't be used). I just don't like the fact that we have to keep adapting our teams just to have ways to stop every single Mega Salamence set. And even with all these Pokémon available, there is always one set that might just completely destroy your team, and there's also the fact that some of these aren't even good in OU but people are using it with the sole purpose of stopping Mega Salamence, which is wrong.
• It is forcing people to change EV spreads, sets, and Pokémon: This is just the obvious proof of how centralizing something can be. I remember how people used to put -SDef or -Def natures on their Pokémon just to give Genesect the boost that wouldn't wreck their teams the most, lol. I think the moment where people start making changes on their teams just to stop one threat is the moment you have to stop and recognize this thing is broken. I mean, of course it's ok to run something like Specially Defensive Celebi in BW to stop Thundurus-T, but it's also stopping Politoed, Starmie, Keldeo (some sets) etc., and this is not the case with stuff like Mega Salamence, which is forcing people to run bad Pokémon (Zapdos, Weavile, and Porygon2 aren't good, please), to change their EV spread (poor Mega Slowbro can't tank it without full Def investment I believe), and just change their teams as a whole. I find silly that we have to make so many changes just to stop a single threat, and this is something that already happened against every broken stuff there was in OU. I'm not sure if I expressed myself correctly, but you should be able to get it lol.
• Ridiculously easy to set up / sweep with: There is almost no way to stop the opponent's Mega Salamence from sweeping. It literally just needs one Dragon Dance to totally destroy your team, and even if you have a check to stop it, it'll probably die on the process just to leave Mega Salamence weaker. There is almost no reliable switch-in to it in OU, and believe me, Porygon2 is not a good point to go with (it sucks). Not only it has the ability to sweep easily, it also sets up on several different opportunities thanks to Intimidate and very good bulk. I mean, it's way too hard to make a team that doesn't let Mega Salamence set up, and it's even harder to make one that has the ability to stop a well played one.
• Mega Salamence gives its team a full advantage without doing anything: The player that has Mega Salamence is already in a better position in team preview, because it forces the opponent to play way more cautiously than he might've played because he was too scared to get swept by Mega Salamence. When you play against Mega Salamence you always have to be wary about the plays you make just to stop it from sweeping you cleanly. I understand that this is something you have to do against several other threats, but the difference with Mega Salamence is that you have to play around it on every single match, because there is no team that handles it perfectly.

These are the 4 main reasons why I feel like Mega Salamence should get quick banned. I don't see the point in doing a Suspect Test this close to SPL (we want the best metagame possible when it starts) of something we all know it's getting banned anyway. It's way too strong to be in OU, it has centralized the metagame more than I've ever seen (rip Mega Lucario), it has no reliable checks and counters etc.

tl;dr: this is broken af

 

[MikeDawg]

I think that "you HAVE to bring megamence answer, or else you get completely swept" is a very poor argument. Most of the upper end of the viability rankings can have the same thing applied to them. Think back to something like gen 5 terrakion. If you didn't have multiple good checks, then you were boned. Or keldeo rn. Or greninja. Or charizard. Or even something like suicune or weavile.

Obviously, if you don't have an answer to something, then it will steamroll your team, and that is true of any mon in any tier (pull off that espeed smeargle sweep imo), and that by no means makes a mon broken, or even good.

To make any sort of actual argument for mence's ban, you definitely need to take a different angle with that reasoning...



Ban it tho

 

[Alexey]

I've been thinking about what I think of MMence, and... what in the heaven are we waiting for?
As of now this thing is just slowing down my (and I'm fairly certain that I'm not the only one) transition into ORAS from XY, as I want to play the meta where I don't have to choose between 1) bringing 3 checks to one mon to provide myself with a one in three chance of maybe winning against at the cost of losing to almost everything else; 2) bringing MMEnce myself and playing the game of "who's the first to click DD"*

On top of that, 99% percent of everyone here is also advocating quickban, and I somehow doubt that the percentages will drastically change in the folowing days

*I am simplifying it a little bit, but ultimately it does boil down to something like that

 

[SketchUp]

I think that "you HAVE to bring megamence answer, or else you get completely swept" is a very poor argument. Most of the upper end of the viability rankings can have the same thing applied to them. Think back to something like gen 5 terrakion. If you didn't have multiple good checks, then you were boned. Or keldeo rn. Or greninja. Or charizard. Or even something like suicune or weavile.o

I agree, but when you don't have a good answer to Greninja for example, you can still play around it and take it down with his Life Orb damage and priority for example. If you don't have a Mega-Salamence answer, it is almost impossible to play around

 

[Gary]

I would appreciate a chance to let the metagame to consolidate a bit more before drawing conclusions. Sure, Mega Salamence is powerful. But is it broken beyond no comparison? I'm all for a suspect test in a month but not a quick ban.

The ladder has been up for a solid month, it's not like it just started yesterday. It OFFICIALLY started yesterday, but people have been using it for over a month now, and the only thing that's come out of that month is that we now realize Mega Mence is even more broken then we thought. Its had enough time to adapt, and there's basically been no progress at all because you can't adapt to Mega Mence, it's too broken. By extending the amount of time Mega Mence is in the tier, we'd only be halting the healthy development of the metagame and keeping it in a constant state of broken limbo.

 

[FlareBlitz3000]

So after getting murdered by a Mega Salamence, just like everyone else I say that it should be quick banned. A simple SubDD set sets up on more than half the meta, including popular pokemon such as Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn. A SubDD set usually runs one attack: Return/Frustration, but the insane bulk for an offensive pokemon allows it to set up enough that even resists will eventually die. It has the bulk to live Ice Shards from Mamoswine and Weavile, while also taking neutral or resisted priority at low health, and then Roosting off the damage. Don't even get me started on mixed or special sets to fuck over its would-be checks and counters.

TL;DR Mega Salamence is cancer. Quickban.

 

[Dratini PhD]

I am think that it just needs to be tested for the time being. If for example it was banned then people in OU would not have to learn to play around it but then (as sometimes is the case) it is moved back down to OU it could cause the problems we are seeing now. Also ORAS are not out everywhere yet so some of the community won't be able to have a say about this.

 

[trikx_insane]

I am think that it just needs to be tested for the time being. If for example it was banned then people in OU would not have to learn to play around it but then (as sometimes is the case) it is moved back down to OU it could cause the problems we are seeing now. Also ORAS are not out everywhere yet so some of the community won't be able to have a say about this.

We were able to obtain data dumps from the ORAS demo, so we've literally been playing ORAS OU for about a month now. There's barely any noticeable difference from the data dumps from the Demo and the actual games itself. So I think it's pretty safe to say how we feel about Mega-Mence. Also, we're not using the games (ORAS) itself to test this, we're using Showdown, which basically the same exact thing, so saying the games aren't out globally isn't an excuse, because there's Showdown.

 

[SketchUp]

Also ORAS are not out everywhere yet so some of the community won't be able to have a say about this.

The ORAS ladder was released a month ago on pokemon showdown so Mega Salamence has already been wrecking ORAS OU for 4 weeks

 

[branflakes]

The decision seems unanimous at this point. I understand that the decision being made is whether or not Salamencite should be suspect tested or quick banned, but let's be real: It's going to end up getting banned regardless. Unless the OU council is planning on bring back Aegislash or something, then there isn't a sliver of hope for Mega Salamence to stay in the tier. And afaik that's never going to happen. Knowing this, quick banning is absolutely appropriate and a suspect test would be a pointless waste of time.

Even waiting another day to quick ban this thing is a waste of time.

 

[Norne]

I am think that it just needs to be tested for the time being. If for example it was banned then people in OU would not have to learn to play around it but then (as sometimes is the case) it is moved back down to OU it could cause the problems we are seeing now. Also ORAS are not out everywhere yet so some of the community won't be able to have a say about this.

The ways around him are weak to common pokemon used to support mence or use sub optimal spreads that let them weak to the rest of the tier, and are worn out with ease to the point they are taken down before they could try to stop Salamence.

We had almost a month with this guy, there are only a few ways around him and either his team punishes them or they become useless against other teams.

He is overcentralizing as hell. And should go down with extreme prejudice. He isn't just overcentralizing, he is the meta.

 

[Goodra]

Why is this even being discussed anymore? So many people both pro and otherwise have said over and over again that this thing is as broken as US Healthcare. It needs to go so the ORAS meta can actually be fun again. This monster promotes brainless easy play with zero strategy. Sub then DD then it's GG and if you can counter it it's only because you had to dedicate your entire darn team to doing that. That is by definition overcentralization please just ban it now so we can move on to the real suspect testing and balancing this meta.

 

[robofiend]

M-Salamence's versatility as a sweeper is unrivaled, given that it can sub/roost/DD/refresh/STAB Return you really can't beat it without something like Skarmory (which can be quickly eliminated with Fire Blast). Its unpredictability gives players between 3 and 4 solid checks:
-Zapdos if it doesn't have Rock Slide
-Mamoswine if you catch it DD'ing or want to RK it
-Skarmory/Ferrothorn if it doesn't have FB
-Rotom-W if it doesn't have Sub/Refresh (even if it does, it can easily roost off damage and DD up until it doesn't matter that it's burned)

Given that most M-Sal builds focus on boosting with DD and spamming Return, it's bound to have either Roost/Sub (or both) or possibly Refresh (although it's not as good as Sub) if it wants to beat things that can Will-o-Wisp it. Even Diancie/M-Diance shudders at the thought of +1 EQ from M-Sal. EZ quick ban material if you ask me.

Like others have said before me, there's no reason to kid ourselves, M-Sal is going to end up in Ubers whether we suspect it or quickban it, so lets just spare ourselves some pain here. We gave it a month to demonstrate its brokenness in ORAS and it's obviously not going to get any better unless everything suddenly gets access to Ice Shard.

 

[SketchUp]

M-Salamence's versatility as a sweeper is unrivaled, given that it can sub/roost/DD/refresh/STAB Return you really can't beat it without something like Skarmory (which can be quickly eliminated with Fire Blast). Its unpredictability gives players between 3 and 4 solid checks:
-Zapdos if it doesn't have Rock Slide
-Mamoswine if you catch it DD'ing or want to RK it
-Skarmory/Ferrothorn if it doesn't have FB
-Rotom-W if it doesn't have Sub/Refresh (even if it does, it can easily roost off damage and DD up until it doesn't matter that it's burned)

Given that most M-Sal builds focus on boosting with DD and spamming Return, it's bound to have either Roost/Sub (or both) or possibly Refresh (although it's not as good as Sub) if it wants to beat things that can Will-o-Wisp it. Even Diancie/M-Diance shudders at the thought of +1 EQ from M-Sal. EZ quick ban material if you ask me.

Like others have said before me, there's no reason to kid ourselves, M-Sal is going to end up in Ubers whether we suspect it or quickban it, so lets just spare ourselves some pain here. We gave it a month to demonstrate its brokenness in ORAS and it's obviously not going to get any better unless everything suddenly gets access to Ice Shard.

IIRC A LO Mamoswine fails to KO with Ice Shard from 100%. You need a Band to get the guaranteed KO.
Ferrothorn is stalled out of Gyro Ball easily (only 8 PP) and becomes Set-up fodder for Salamence. Rotom-W is also stalled out and Volt Switch means it has to switch out so your ''check'' is gone (unless you have got a Rotom-W and a Skarmory in your team)
So even the pokemon you listed as checks can be killed by Mega Salamence.

 

[Force Majeure]

Can Mega Salamence get past Rotom-W? It resists all of its common attacks (Return, Earthquake, Fire Blast) and can paralyze or burn it back.

The damage calculator isn't working for me, but IIRC a +1 Aerilate Return (or maybe D-Edge?) is a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Either way, Rotom-W can't really do anything to Mence if it's SubDD.

EDIT: http://gamut-was-taken.github.io <- Here's a mirror for the showdown damage calculator.

Return has a 10% chance to 2HKO after SR and Leftovers.

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 125-147 (41.1 - 48.3%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

Double Edge is a guaranteed 2HKO.

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 147-173 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I don't think Rotom usually runs 252 Def EVs; if it does, it's a bit better; it actually has a chance to survive. Heh.

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind that Rotom has no recovery outside of Pain Split (or Rest, I guess), so if it takes any more than ~20% damage earlier in the battle, it cannot switch in to M-Mence, even if Mence is using Return and Rotom-W is fully invested.

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 121-143 (39.8 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It's pretty obvious to me that M-Mence needs to go. I don't think very many people arguing against a quick-ban are arguing from a procedural or deontological perspective, as if this quick ban would mess up the suspect testing process, which is this well-known dictatorship's form of due process. To paraphrase SCOTUS justice Robert Jackson, the Smogon suspect process is not a death pact. Quickban M-mence.

 

[EmeraldEnchanter]

So I have made a team that comprises of M-Mence, AV Conkeldurr, A Skarm who's only moves are SR and Spikes and 3 pokes w/ Choice Band and their only move is ice shard. The fact that this team is winning should be a testament to M-Mences strength. ONE Poke w/ 1 pokemon to cover its back and 1 to setup hazards with the rest of the team just revenge killing M-Mence. M-Mence shouldn't be able to solo 5 teams in a row w/ only limited support.

For the love of God quickban.