-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Hearthstone [IRC Channel #Skillstone]
- Thread starter LonelyNess
- Start date
blitzlefan
shake it off!
SHRINKMEISTER + CABAL SHADOW PRIEST HYPE!!! You can steal Cairne now!!!
Explosive Sheep also makes me very happy as a control player, but fuck Clockwork Giant and Clockwork Gnome - Aggro didn't need any more buffs >:(
IMO the game is tilted so heavily in favor of aggro that another 1 mana 2/1 deathrattle is really upsetting (but whatever).
Explosive Sheep also makes me very happy as a control player, but fuck Clockwork Giant and Clockwork Gnome - Aggro didn't need any more buffs >:(
IMO the game is tilted so heavily in favor of aggro that another 1 mana 2/1 deathrattle is really upsetting (but whatever).
Clockwork Giant isn't going to be able to help aggro at all, it's way too slow, and makes you auto-lose to basically anything that isn't Control Warrior/Paladin, Handlock, or Freeze Mage if you draw it in those other match ups. Even then the card might show up when it costs too much to effectively play it.
It does however look like Mech based Tempo/Aggro is going to be REALLY good so far. We're also probly going to get some cards that more benefit control too later on, its just this is what we've gotten to see first. Only time will tell.
It does however look like Mech based Tempo/Aggro is going to be REALLY good so far. We're also probly going to get some cards that more benefit control too later on, its just this is what we've gotten to see first. Only time will tell.
I see Kel'Thuzads in a lot of taunt heavy Ramp druids and just assume they didn't draw it/don't have it if it doesn't come out, but then again I'm rank 10-5ish and players in this range might be weaker. I have a couple questions about your build. Why Healing Touch? It doesn't really impact the board and is an inherent -1, wouldn't Zombie Chow or something be better for fending off Hunter/Zoo? How do you best utilize Bloodmage Thalnos aside from the obvious mega Swipes? I've never seen it in Druid, is it mainly for stuff like turn 3 Dark Cultist? Why no Black Knight? I thought it was arguably a more important legendary than Cenarius for Druids. Does having 6 5 drops get clunky at times?
I like the Exploding Sheep thing. would force Aggro to burn their Owls and stuff on these things instead of your taunts.
Healing touch is a debatable card in Ramp Druid. It is best when using the double molten build, but has its merit outside of it in basically managing hunters burst from behind all your taunts. Bloodmage is also a debatable choice because its body is useless with a 1 damage hero power, and its spell power effect is... situational in this meta / only on swipe & wrath. Black Knight is for control match ups but is generally an all around good choice because of the popularity of Sludge Belcher, I would use it in this deck. It is also a massive swing card in the mirror (you would keep it in your opener). I would also cut the Harvest Golem (and probably the bloodmage) for 2x Shade. Spectral Knight is also a debatable choice, its best in ramp when you run double Sunfury imo... it's good in the token version because it's sticky, but I would also further justify it in ramp if you ran double Savage Roar. I would also run KT in this build.
Shades > harvest / bloodmage
Zombie chow > 1x spectral
KT > 1x spectral
TBK > healing touch
is what i would ultimately end up doing.
of course this always has an element of personal preference so take my advice with a grain of salt. hopefully i could also shed some light on lavos' reasoning, on top of it.
Shades > harvest / bloodmage
Zombie chow > 1x spectral
KT > 1x spectral
TBK > healing touch
is what i would ultimately end up doing.
of course this always has an element of personal preference so take my advice with a grain of salt. hopefully i could also shed some light on lavos' reasoning, on top of it.
imperfectluck
Banned deucer.
I just reached legend #292 with this deck which I will probably have to change all over again after next month and the new cards hit, posting to see what people think of it
2 Earth Shock
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Rockbiter Weapon
1 Bloodmage Thalnos
2 Flametongue Totem
2 Nerubian Egg
2 Feral Spirit
2 Hex
2 Lightning Storm
1 Earthen Ring Farseer
1 Mana Tide Totem
2 Defender of Argus
1 Doomhammer
1 Azure Drake
2 Faceless Manipulator
1 Harrison Jones
1 Loatheb
2 Fire Elemental
1 Al'Akir the Windlord
2 Earth Shock
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Rockbiter Weapon
1 Bloodmage Thalnos
2 Flametongue Totem
2 Nerubian Egg
2 Feral Spirit
2 Hex
2 Lightning Storm
1 Earthen Ring Farseer
1 Mana Tide Totem
2 Defender of Argus
1 Doomhammer
1 Azure Drake
2 Faceless Manipulator
1 Harrison Jones
1 Loatheb
2 Fire Elemental
1 Al'Akir the Windlord
I guess the main weird thing is the 2 Faceless Manipulators. Why did you put those in?
I mean, I guess 5/6 undertakers by turn 3 count as heavy. I think it's dangerous to run such greedy cards, but I've been floating around rank 3 for a while, so maybe the meta at legend is different.
imperfectluck
Banned deucer.
Faceless has been an MVP for me in control vs. control matchups, usually I'm able to play Faceless + Hex on the same turn, steal a legendary, and swing the tempo of the game in my favor
I used to have Sylvanas + Ragnaros instead of the two faceless and I was finding that Sylvanas and Rag were both too slow, it was very hard to actually steal anything worthwhile with Sylvanas or get Rag to hit what I wanted and both costed too much mana to play anything else that turn. After adding the two Faceless, I was able to rise from rank 5 to legend in 2 days.
I used to have Sylvanas + Ragnaros instead of the two faceless and I was finding that Sylvanas and Rag were both too slow, it was very hard to actually steal anything worthwhile with Sylvanas or get Rag to hit what I wanted and both costed too much mana to play anything else that turn. After adding the two Faceless, I was able to rise from rank 5 to legend in 2 days.
The thing with Shaman is that it relies on board control early game and then your late game is about bursting the opponent down from a reasonable amount of health (Al'akir or Doomhammer with Rockbiters). While I don't doubt the consistency of your deck (you got Legend) I think that adding more cards to help with the draw / damage mechanic (ala Azure) is probably a better choice for your matchups.
The issue with the current metagame for Shaman is that they lack heal aside from ERF, so the Hunter game, while a 50/50 imo, is a very rushed game. I also very much disagree with 4 mana cost minions in a Shaman deck since turn 4 is such an easy overload turn and 4 mana is only useful as a turn 6 overload card, something you should avoid when you're wanting to play Fire Elementals, Drakes, or a Doomhammer.
Regardless Shaman has no true bad matchup aside from Priest, who beats the most common decks on ladder aside from Druid, who loses to everything else.
edit:
Kind of aside the point but I don't feel Undertaker is too powerful of a card. Aggro is a really common archtype in card games and it doesn't seem like it really out-shines more control decks (think Warrior and Paladin). The issue is that the "community" thinks Undertaker is really too powerful which makes a really toxic environment for people. One person thinks UT is too powerful then someone else loses to it and it extends from there.
UT is a good aggro card but it can be handled, while it might be an inefficient trade, that's the point of an aggro deck, it forces you to react so you can stabilize. In retrospect I disagree with the Leeroy nerf and I believe the Buzzard nerf to be too severe. Though that's not a common opinion to have.
The issue with the current metagame for Shaman is that they lack heal aside from ERF, so the Hunter game, while a 50/50 imo, is a very rushed game. I also very much disagree with 4 mana cost minions in a Shaman deck since turn 4 is such an easy overload turn and 4 mana is only useful as a turn 6 overload card, something you should avoid when you're wanting to play Fire Elementals, Drakes, or a Doomhammer.
Regardless Shaman has no true bad matchup aside from Priest, who beats the most common decks on ladder aside from Druid, who loses to everything else.
edit:
Kind of aside the point but I don't feel Undertaker is too powerful of a card. Aggro is a really common archtype in card games and it doesn't seem like it really out-shines more control decks (think Warrior and Paladin). The issue is that the "community" thinks Undertaker is really too powerful which makes a really toxic environment for people. One person thinks UT is too powerful then someone else loses to it and it extends from there.
UT is a good aggro card but it can be handled, while it might be an inefficient trade, that's the point of an aggro deck, it forces you to react so you can stabilize. In retrospect I disagree with the Leeroy nerf and I believe the Buzzard nerf to be too severe. Though that's not a common opinion to have.
http://imgur.com/jpFlkZd
This is my brew to counter Hunters, I've been adjusting it over the last couple of days, the first version had Arcane Missiles and Acolytes, but I swapped Missiles for a second Pyro and Sylvanas, and Acolytes became AI for a faster draw and synergy with Mana Wyrm. I don't know what changes I would make, other than Thalnos over Geomancer and probably Harrison over Ooze, those are just because I don't have the cards. Two Polys + Rag and Sylvanas and decent midrange minions make it solid against control decks (mostly been playing against Warriors, Priests, and Ramp Druids of those), Warlocks are hard matchups because you get buried in card draw, but I think this deck is favored against all Hunters. You have Mana Wyrms, Chows, and Pyros to control their early game, and if you stabilize after 4-5 turns with above 20 health, then you probably win comfortably. Because of the Fireballs and Frostbolts, this deck does have a lot of burst potential, that helps against Control decks and gives you an out against Hunters if you stabilized at a lower health. Polymorph handles Highmane and Belcher can give you some security. Right now, I'm at rank 2, so I'm hoping to push to Legend over the next few days.
TL;DR Arcane Explosion is actually a fantastic card.
This is my brew to counter Hunters, I've been adjusting it over the last couple of days, the first version had Arcane Missiles and Acolytes, but I swapped Missiles for a second Pyro and Sylvanas, and Acolytes became AI for a faster draw and synergy with Mana Wyrm. I don't know what changes I would make, other than Thalnos over Geomancer and probably Harrison over Ooze, those are just because I don't have the cards. Two Polys + Rag and Sylvanas and decent midrange minions make it solid against control decks (mostly been playing against Warriors, Priests, and Ramp Druids of those), Warlocks are hard matchups because you get buried in card draw, but I think this deck is favored against all Hunters. You have Mana Wyrms, Chows, and Pyros to control their early game, and if you stabilize after 4-5 turns with above 20 health, then you probably win comfortably. Because of the Fireballs and Frostbolts, this deck does have a lot of burst potential, that helps against Control decks and gives you an out against Hunters if you stabilized at a lower health. Polymorph handles Highmane and Belcher can give you some security. Right now, I'm at rank 2, so I'm hoping to push to Legend over the next few days.
TL;DR Arcane Explosion is actually a fantastic card.
You need the frost bolts over the ooze. Hunters run 4 traps max and one bow unless you're playing against an idiot. There's no reason to worry about bow with Water Ele as he HAS to remove that which means less face damage. With Ooze you're risking face damage and you have to trade in. Though I approve of Chow because for more control decks the healing doesn't matter
Run Loot over Geo the spell damage isn't worth that much and you need draw over Arcane.
Also remote Sylvanas for another two or three drop. It only combos from fireball which you don't want to use
Run Loot over Geo the spell damage isn't worth that much and you need draw over Arcane.
Also remote Sylvanas for another two or three drop. It only combos from fireball which you don't want to use
Arcane Explosion is really mediocre. It's awful in every matchup barring Hunter as a two-of, and you don't see it enough in Hunter matchups for it to matter as a one-of. I tried it out when I was pissed at Hunter too, and it was just kind of fucking awful. Here's a control Mage list I've been running that actually does pretty well against Hunter despite the fucking existence of Flare:
so basically you win control matchups by pulling your legendaries, Molten Giant, or occasionally even Acolyte and Water Elemental (both good in Warrior matchups) and then simply out-value-ing them with your tons of late game that can't come close to yours. When I was modifying this list, I thought about what my bane was as Hunter, and I pretty much realized it was Zombie Chow, regardless of the deck running them. Lots of people run Undertaker synergy or Mana Wyrm for control Mage early game, but I think double Chow works really well for it. against Hunter, you'll usually have to test the waters on Flares with Duplicate or just pray they don't have it, and as long as you can control the early game, you can easily win the late game. Molten Giants and Belchers are huge too. I think I actually cut the Acolytes earlier today because I was seeing mostly control decks that would beat me by silencing my Acolytes or limiting me to one draw with them, and Arcane Intellect was just much better there. But if you're mostly seeing Hunter, Acolytes are better. They're awful vs. Zoo though because early they have Flame Imp, Knife Juggler, Abusive Sergeast, Dire Wolf Alpha, etc. to deny you your multiple draws. I also tried double Ice Barrier over Earthen Rings, but I found I appreciated the flexibility of being able to heal my minions, having fewer dead draws in the early game, and just having another body on board. Plus, you can Duplicate them against aggro.
Also Hunters usually run double Bow with three Traps, though it's flexible. I've mostly been seeing double Freezing/one Snake, but occasionally I'll run into a stray Explosive or face Hunters with just two Explosives. Even if they don't pull a Trap reveal with Bow up, it's still six damage for three mana, which is good enough to run double. Plus, no Buzzard combos to clog your hand with traps and the second Bow, so they rarely clash anymore.
Also my Mage list is really expensive and not the best at beating Hunter anyways (but it's really fun if you have the cards, highly recommend), so if you're looking for budget anti-Hunter, fight fire with fire and run face Hunter. You have basically identical early game, but you close out games much more quickly with chargers and forcing them to trade at the risk of them dying rather than vice-versa. Face Hunter has me up to I think rank 2/4 stars right now, and I've played maybe 5 hours past rank 15. Only bad parts are that it's weaker against Handlock (my winrate is still about 65% against them tho) and Priest/Warrior if you draw poorly.
This is very similar to hyp3d's list - http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/108024-hyp3ds-minion-freeze-mage-mega-expensive
I think there's a few things to consider with yours, namely Chows vs Frost Nova / CoC & Doomsayers for early control (CoC & Doomsayers work late, as well). It's hard to evaluate this deck in the current meta, Zombie Chow is exceptional vs Hunter, but you do only have 6 drops in the 1-3 curve, so the possibility of being overrun is there; you have Molten Giants to punish it, but Flare can easily still kill you. Vs Zoo Zombie Chows are not nearly as good as they are against Hunter, but are still good; I think this matchup favours you, but not nearly as much as the standard freeze mage. Duplicate + Ice Block + Moltens & massive minions should win you almost any control match up from the looks of it, though.
Have a look at this list - http://i.imgur.com/LzxBVJG.jpg for what I think is the best mage to pummel hunter. Counterspell shitting on Flare & Animal Companion and the huge tempo swings offered by your higher value secrets given from Kirin Tor & Mad Scientist, and then Water Elementals shitting on all their low-drops or freezing their bow damage...
interesting deck ;o
I think there's a few things to consider with yours, namely Chows vs Frost Nova / CoC & Doomsayers for early control (CoC & Doomsayers work late, as well). It's hard to evaluate this deck in the current meta, Zombie Chow is exceptional vs Hunter, but you do only have 6 drops in the 1-3 curve, so the possibility of being overrun is there; you have Molten Giants to punish it, but Flare can easily still kill you. Vs Zoo Zombie Chows are not nearly as good as they are against Hunter, but are still good; I think this matchup favours you, but not nearly as much as the standard freeze mage. Duplicate + Ice Block + Moltens & massive minions should win you almost any control match up from the looks of it, though.
Have a look at this list - http://i.imgur.com/LzxBVJG.jpg for what I think is the best mage to pummel hunter. Counterspell shitting on Flare & Animal Companion and the huge tempo swings offered by your higher value secrets given from Kirin Tor & Mad Scientist, and then Water Elementals shitting on all their low-drops or freezing their bow damage...
interesting deck ;o
yeah I've seen a few people playing lists similar to Hyped's with stuff like the Frost Nova / Doomsayer package, Ice Barriers, Undertakers, Mana Wyrms, etc. to handle early-game aggression, but I think Chows and Earthen Rings do a considerably better job at it. Ice Barrier gains you more immediate life than Earthen Ring but does nothing to affect the state of the board, Frost Nova / Doomsayer only works well vs. stuff like Zoo if you can pop all their deathrattles first and if you draw it early enough, Undertakers require you to run more mediocre cards like Loot Hoarder, Mana Wyrm is weak without lots of early spells.
I've played more aggressive lists like yours, but I'm not a fan of them. They always feel really draw dependent to me, like if you don't get a strong Undertaker or Mana Wyrm start or if you draw your fucking secrets before your Scientists (I really fucking hate that), then you're just boned. I tried out Lothar's list that did really well at Dream Hack Bucharest with Belchers and Sylvanas and a Flamestrike or something like that, and I really wasn't a fan. This list is a bit more aggressive than his was, so it might be a better ladder deck.
Also I don't think I'd bother with Flamestrike > Argus. You should be trying to out-snowball Hunters and then solidify your board presence with secrets and trying to cheese out Zoo with burn finishes. By the time Flamestrike becomes relevant, the game should be pretty much decided one way or the other. Plus, Flamestrike is notoriously inconsistent against Zoo anyways because they have Harvest Golem, Haunted Creeper, Nerubian Egg, giant Undertakers, Argus, Doomguard, etc. to keep from being boned by it. This isn't as big of a deal in control matchups because you have more time to stabilize and try to kill off their deathrattles before using Flamestrike, but I wouldn't bother with it in this build.
Guys has blizzard fixed this? I din't have the card myself to test for it, but if someone can confirm then I might start hoarding dust because I have some interesting deathrattle deck ideas.
[Skip to the 4:10 mark, to go directly to the pivotal Kel'Thuzad turn]
[Skip to the 4:10 mark, to go directly to the pivotal Kel'Thuzad turn]
Took me a year but I finally did it.
Cards not shown: Spectral Knight, Stampeding Kodo, Argent Commander, Windfury Harpy, Gnomish Inventor x2
Cards not shown: Spectral Knight, Stampeding Kodo, Argent Commander, Windfury Harpy, Gnomish Inventor x2
Flavour wise it would make sense he needs to stay alive at the end of the turn to bring other minions back to life, but even if your mechanic is considered, he shouldn't be at-least bringing himself to life, because there are way to many end-of-turn effects that would randomly cockblock a game. Then that's just plain bullshit.
Doing an alarm o bot draft atm.i dont think ive been as unhappy with a card in arena since the time rodan drafted lorewalker cho (over baron geddon no less)