-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
All Gens Implementing all old gens in PS - Testers required!
- Thread starter Joim
- Start date
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
I'm able to tell you quite a bit of what's yet to go on.
RBY I know there's still issues such as:
Critical Hits don't go through reflect/light screen, which they should do
Issues with Mirror Move/Counter (I don't know quite what these are)
There's bound to be something buggy with wrap, because it's wrap and it's the most complex thing to get right in RBY
I know there's also issues with http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stat-reduction-bug.3520407/ which is genuinely interesting; whilst there's arguements over how important it is, it is competitively relevant (in GSC at least)
Honestly some movement forward on this front would be a great stimulus to PS to get a lot of the great old gens players back onto here from PO/IRC to an extent. :)
RBY I know there's still issues such as:
Critical Hits don't go through reflect/light screen, which they should do
Issues with Mirror Move/Counter (I don't know quite what these are)
There's bound to be something buggy with wrap, because it's wrap and it's the most complex thing to get right in RBY
I know there's also issues with http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stat-reduction-bug.3520407/ which is genuinely interesting; whilst there's arguements over how important it is, it is competitively relevant (in GSC at least)
Honestly some movement forward on this front would be a great stimulus to PS to get a lot of the great old gens players back onto here from PO/IRC to an extent. :)
Will drop my notes on Gen 2 Critical Hits in case they are useful.
If a critical hit occurs:
(1) Stat level modifications are ignored if they are neutral to or favour the defender. For example, if the attacker had used Swords Dance before critting with a physical attack, the Swords Dance boost would be applied. However, if, in addition, the defender's Defense level had been +2 or higher, none of the two stat level modifications (attacker's attack and defender's defense) would've been applied.
(2) Reflect and Light Screen defensive boosts are only ignored if stat level modifications were also ignored as a result of (1). This includes the scenario where no stat level modifications exist in neither attacker's [special] attack nor in defender's [special] defense.
(3) If the attacker is burned, stat level modifications are always ignored. The attack drop from the burn is only applied when attacker's attack level is higher than defender's defense level
If a critical hit occurs:
(1) Stat level modifications are ignored if they are neutral to or favour the defender. For example, if the attacker had used Swords Dance before critting with a physical attack, the Swords Dance boost would be applied. However, if, in addition, the defender's Defense level had been +2 or higher, none of the two stat level modifications (attacker's attack and defender's defense) would've been applied.
(2) Reflect and Light Screen defensive boosts are only ignored if stat level modifications were also ignored as a result of (1). This includes the scenario where no stat level modifications exist in neither attacker's [special] attack nor in defender's [special] defense.
(3) If the attacker is burned, stat level modifications are always ignored. The attack drop from the burn is only applied when attacker's attack level is higher than defender's defense level
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Found another bug when casually battling with praj.pran on smogtours, turns out that the roll-over doesn't work properly. He rolled over with clamp and it went back to (I think) 24 (he said some time after the rollover he was at 16).. it should always roll over to 63 (also it rolled over because something of mine was KOed I think - is that the proper mechanic?) - also he didn't miss a single clamp iirc; before, I've seen wrap virtually always hit too whilst switching, given that you'd expect 6/24 clamps to miss, could someone maybe do some testing with me (and if someone could look into the code and make sure that at least clamp has 75% accuracy in RBY) to see if there is something buggy about this? ^-^
Critical hits indeed don't do 2x damage, but the damage formula given is wrong.
https://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/compendium/battdam.htm
If a Critical hit happens, double the value of A.
https://www.math.miami.edu/~jam/azure/compendium/battdam.htm
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
If it's 100% accurate, it's no longer an approximation!
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason you don't see any misses while switch spamming is because it isn't checking for accuracy after the initial hit, thinking "oh Clamp automagically continues to hit after the initial use" without considering that you switched out and are forcing a new initial hit on a different mon.
Rollover occurs when the target switches out of a trapping move, the Clamp (Wrap etc.) user automatically uses the move again on the incoming mon costing 1 PP. If you're at 0 PP when that happens, it rolls back over to 63 PP.
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason you don't see any misses while switch spamming is because it isn't checking for accuracy after the initial hit, thinking "oh Clamp automagically continues to hit after the initial use" without considering that you switched out and are forcing a new initial hit on a different mon.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Guess we gotta do some testing
Well, to be perfectly precise, Clamp should roll over from 0/16 to 63/14. But maximum PP doesn't actually matter in this scenario.
Which of course brings up another interesting point; if you use a Wrapper with less than 3 PP Ups, you'd roll over to 63 early, causing great woe to anyone trying to stall you out by counting PP. But you aren't allowed to not apply PP Ups in Showdown's teambuilder (I don't know whether the actual capability to not apply them to a specific move exists).
Which of course brings up another interesting point; if you use a Wrapper with less than 3 PP Ups, you'd roll over to 63 early, causing great woe to anyone trying to stall you out by counting PP. But you aren't allowed to not apply PP Ups in Showdown's teambuilder (I don't know whether the actual capability to not apply them to a specific move exists).
Last edited:
Joim I've recently finished compiling an exhaustive reseach on gen 1 battle mechanics, everything taken from the game's code itself: [url]http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/past-gens-research-thread.3506992/[/URL]
Here's a list of gen1 problems i've found:
Major Issues:
-Critical hits do not ignore screens (BIGGEST ISSUE)
-Wrap moves are doing the damage dealt on the original poke they trapped, which is wrong. This is most evident when cloyster clamps a golem, and than golem switches to say exeggutor, clamp will deal normal damage to egg for the first hit, than proceed to do massive 50%+ clamps on exeggutor. (2nd biggest issue)
-Counter isn't working properly. (ex: your snorlax switches to chansey, opponents tauros hyper beams and hits chansey [chansey should be able to counter and faint tauros with it) but it's not coded to do it.
-If you kill something by a charge up move, the poke will charge twice. (ex: articuno uses sky attack, chansey fainted. now articuno is forced into a screen where it has to recover (kind of like how hyper beam works, that is.. if hyper beam had to charge both BEFORE AND AFTER the attack lol.) this only happens if you KO something with it though. This shouldn't be. It applies to any move that takes 2 turns: fly,dig,solar beam,skullbash,sky attack, there might be some in that list i'm missing idk.
Smaller Issues:
-Mirror move doesn't work
-Bide lasts 2 turns always instead of 2-3 as it should
-Trapping moves do not roll over to 63 PP, they roll back to whatever their starting PP was.
-
Major Issues:
-Critical hits do not ignore screens (BIGGEST ISSUE)
-Wrap moves are doing the damage dealt on the original poke they trapped, which is wrong. This is most evident when cloyster clamps a golem, and than golem switches to say exeggutor, clamp will deal normal damage to egg for the first hit, than proceed to do massive 50%+ clamps on exeggutor. (2nd biggest issue)
-Counter isn't working properly. (ex: your snorlax switches to chansey, opponents tauros hyper beams and hits chansey [chansey should be able to counter and faint tauros with it) but it's not coded to do it.
-If you kill something by a charge up move, the poke will charge twice. (ex: articuno uses sky attack, chansey fainted. now articuno is forced into a screen where it has to recover (kind of like how hyper beam works, that is.. if hyper beam had to charge both BEFORE AND AFTER the attack lol.) this only happens if you KO something with it though. This shouldn't be. It applies to any move that takes 2 turns: fly,dig,solar beam,skullbash,sky attack, there might be some in that list i'm missing idk.
Smaller Issues:
-Mirror move doesn't work
-Bide lasts 2 turns always instead of 2-3 as it should
-Trapping moves do not roll over to 63 PP, they roll back to whatever their starting PP was.
-
Fixed right now:
-Trapping moves do not roll over to 63 PP, they roll back to whatever their starting PP was.
https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/commit/cc697524fb5e0747edb161b25aa8ed3ef4fde8e7
-Critical hits do not ignore screens
https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/commit/caab2923e14ac49d6e0e1f665ed358b103c4ff1a
;]
-Trapping moves do not roll over to 63 PP, they roll back to whatever their starting PP was.
https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/commit/cc697524fb5e0747edb161b25aa8ed3ef4fde8e7
-Critical hits do not ignore screens
https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/commit/caab2923e14ac49d6e0e1f665ed358b103c4ff1a
;]
Fixed:
https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/commit/ebfaf1e8340db1187b9daabcb6414ee3329d882b
PD: Proper turn orner for Gen 3 will follow soon.
Last edited:
I'm not a programmer, and I haven't looked at the whole code, but:
Your code looks like it turns >1024 Def/Spc from Reflect/Light Screen in RBY into 1024 - ie, a cap. It's not a cap, it's a rollover; if you have 514 Def and use Reflect, your Def is now 4. See here, second point under "damage calculation".
It's a minor issue in RBY, because to hit that bug you'd need to have both a +Def move and Reflect on your set. But still.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
What does this mean for my gimmick reflect harden snorlax? o.o
Is this a joke?
If not, it means "don't boost past +2 Def when behind Reflect". Because Snorlax at +3 Def behind Reflect takes almost twice as much from physical attacks as it would with neither Reflect nor Harden.
it's not a joke, unfortunately.
http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/showthread.php?3209-Non-Sequitur
the legend of the no attack snorlax starts there. no points to the ones who guesses the innovator behind it.
http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/showthread.php?3209-Non-Sequitur
the legend of the no attack snorlax starts there. no points to the ones who guesses the innovator behind it.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
It is a joke.. but I did want to know. lol
Yeah, that's a terrible idea. That Snorlax isn't PP-stalling anything once they realise its set; RBY has no entry hazards to stop your opponent from just switching endlessly. Once you're out of Rest, they'll just stick something with a lot of attacking PP in front of you and batter you down the hard way.
(Someone's suggested Withdraw/Amnesia/TWave/Rest Slowbro to me before; it's not really a new idea, just a bad one.)
(Someone's suggested Withdraw/Amnesia/TWave/Rest Slowbro to me before; it's not really a new idea, just a bad one.)
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
yea I knew it was terrible I was just testing it out for laughs.
I wanna theorise about starmie with screens a little more tho
I wanna theorise about starmie with screens a little more tho
Yeah, screen Starmie is a decent idea. Both on the same set is problematic, though, since you end up getting walled by a long list of things.
LS Starmie walls Zam and Slowbro impeccably. Reflect Starmie sweeps easily (much more easily than Reflect Zam) once Tbolters are out of the way. In either case I'd probably run Ice Beam (LS Starmie can actually stay in to freeze Chansey/Zam, and Reflect Starmie's basically indestructible so why not) along with Psychic or Tbolt for coverage. Or maybe Surf/Tbolt on the Reflect one, but then you can't get past Zam which is annoying.
We might want to move this discussion somewhere else, though.
Last edited: