Alright I'll do my best to reorganize my thoughts and come up with a more outlined argument. I don't appreciate being called retarded or trolling, when almost everything I say gets chopped up into pieces out of context. Or even better it just comes down to a subjective disagreement "it's overpowered" "no it's not" and immediately get insulted. Come on people
1. Is it overcentralizing?
At the moment it is probably the best offensive megamon to use. But why is it the best? Straightforwardly, because there are no alternatives for offensive teams to use. Therefore most people are running it and everyone needs a counter or multiple checks.
2. Everything at Salamence's level is already in ubers
Kangaskhan's ability adds roughly the same amount of damage to its attacks that Salamences aerialate does. Lucario's adaptability does much the same. And mawile hits even harder. All 4 of those pokemon hit awfully hard even unboosted. Close, but not at the same level, are gallade heracross and pinsir which are the next best things for offense to use (and are actually better in a handful of situations, certainly viable choices) but aren't as immediately threatening as the above four. Blaziken is a bit of a different beast and doesn't hit as hard (immediately) but typically boosts easily and is by no means weak unboosted. Other things like skymin or aegislash have their own reasons to being voted uber before.
3. Therefore Salamence belongs in ubers like the above pokemon
This is where I just completely and fundamentally disagree. I've gotten insulted for saying this but I very strongly believe that all the of the ubers (except cover legends) actually interact with eachother very well and keep eachother at bay. A completely reopened (or almost completely) OU tier would be a complete mixed bag and Salamence would no longer be a centralizing threat
It is completely impossible to foresee the interplay that all the so called "broken" things would have between each other.
Unleashing them would "solve the overcentralized Salamence" problem which is at least one point that I have that can't really be denied. Showdown has never seen what an unlocked ORAS tier would look like. All we have is Salamence alone being the dominant offensive threat. Everything would be completely scrambled around and I can completely guarantee that there would be no single centralizing force.
"We don't drop things from ubers just to balance out one overpowered threat"
This misinterpretation gets posted over and over. The fact that Salamence would get a couple new checks is just completely a side effect of the main point I'm trying to make. I'M NOT ADVOCATING THAT WE NEED OLD UBERS TO HELP FIGHT SALAMENCE.
What I
am saying is that we should drop just about everything back into OU to examine it, experience it, and try to redefine our feelings on what "broken" even means anymore. Terms like "overpowered" and "skill-less" get thrown around far too loosely and it's because the prevailing mindset around here is that we need to preserve some sort of defensive balance and recreate a gen3/4/5 meta of easy switch ins and effortless pivoting.
Instead I think the modern pokemon game is supposed to suppress and punish any idea that you can get a rotom/alomola/landorus in for free every time and pivot out for free momentum. Wallbreakers like deoxys and lucario around every corner would kill off that sort of thing. I think that if you actually want a pivot or counter for something in OU then you actually have to dedicate a teamslot to it and have something that is legitimately bulky like slowbro or megascizor.
The fact that Rotom-W can't always break Salamence's subs is a ridiculous complaint. Maybe you should be punished for it? Maybe you're just not supposed to be able to run full HP and defense investment and switch around for free? You have to make a choice now; can break subs but is not bulky, or bulky switches in a lot but can't break subs.
That is just one example of trying to play the old game, but it also applies to things like "I should be able to use specs keldeo" and "I should be able to use landorus and not get set up on" and "I should be able defensively handle Salamence without actually running bulky things on my team"
Why should you be able to do any of those things? Because it worked after everything stronger than Pinsir was banned? Because you want to have a "defensive core" without actually making any sacrifice at all on your offensive capabilities? Now you get punished for running "bulky" crap like Lati@s, Rotom, Mew.
Hilariously, with mence around, stall is actually being well rewarded for making the sacrifice on offense and going safe with skarmories, heatrans, porgyon, slowbro, whatever.
"We could never be covered for everything if ubers was reopened! Stall would die and everything would be 50/50s"
This is just not true at all. Just because a horde of previously uber megas would be running around doesn't mean various defensive staples like heatran, slowbro, chansey, sableye, and ferrothorn would not be doing their jobs. And just because there would be more threats to worry about DOES NOT MEAN you would suddenly have no salamence checks on your team. For example in a completely reoppened tier you might have greninja, scarf genesect, and thundurus all working together to deal with various threats. Those 3 alone have all kinds of CHECK answers to mence, mawile, lucario, and so on. Scarf ninja could even deal with boosted blaziken and mence both too.
Did you notice that mamoswine not only helps against mence but seriously hurts mawile and aegislash both? Did you notice that genesect will always get the sp.atk boost against salamence and it also resists both of mawiles STABs? How about the new sabeleye fucking with some lucario and salamence sets both? Mega slowbro with ice beam/fireblast/scald both does very well against mence and mawile and blaziken. Not to mention all the prankster users that are helpful against everything.
Did you notice that not only has the offensive power level increased but defensive mons have gotten better as well?
Slowbro gets all of calm mind, iron defense, amnesia, and has various EV options. Ghosts like sabeleye and aegislash are fucking great. Charizard-X is amazing at what he does. Altaria is a completey underrated defensive beast. Porygon2 is tracing all kinds of intimdates and proteans. Even sweepers are getting enough "bulk" to survive a hit in a pinch, like gallade and metagross.
Stall wouldn't die lol it'd evolve like it always has. Stall is by far my favorite playstyle and I would still love to see everything from mawile to salamence to genesect back in the tier.
"They were banned for a reason why bring them back? It's backward progress."
Because many of the people who voted for banning the original suspects like lucario and deoxys were doing so with a gen5 mentality still fresh in their minds. By now everyone has experienced just how offensive gen6 has become and it's been shocking, much the same as the original gen4 power up. I think everyone was trying to preserve a game where things as questionably weak as zapdos and latias should actually be able to get free switch ins. Players want to have speed AND power AND pivot ability AND enough bulk to handle the meta. Lol that's so screwy, if you want to have any defensive answers at all to the meta then you have to pay a price somewhere. You use skarm instead of landorus and you use sylveon instead of clefable and you use defensive ttar instead of terrakion.
Meanwhile, not only would defense go through its own evolutions but offense would be completely revitalized and have all kinds of toys to use instead of just 1.
This:
That is infinitely better than whatever stale OU game you're trying to preserve by banning things:
tl;dr
1. Mence is overcentralizing because there are no other good options and his teammates don't need to worry about previous ubers.
2. Switching in should be difficult to do. You shouldn't be able to run something that is barely bulky enough against the meta and is also powerful and fast.
3. Only stall teams should be capable of switching against the top threats.
4. Stall and even bulky offense would have defensive answers in a reopened OU
5. No one can say what the meta would even look like. It might surprise everyone and be better than you expect
6. "Nothing can switch into kangaskhan/deoxys/xxxxx" -- this is part of the game. Stall teams scout the moves or status and offense teams pressure it.
7. Please re-evaluate everything. It's not a waste of time if it's exciting, challenging, fun, and certainly worthwhile
If nothing will ever be retested then just ban mence because it is better than everything else by too large of a margin. But I very strongly think that completely (or almost completely) reopening ubers is a better choice.
