He mentioned priority users in his second point, actually. And the ones you mentioned have trouble switching into Greninja's moves, especially if Stealth Rocks are in play.
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
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Although I agree completely with pretty much all of what has been said about ninja, it doesn't change the fact that you can't possibly "counter" it until you know its full set. 4MSS is an ass and a half, but it doesn't hinder Ninja nearly as much as some seem to believe. It's by far one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and we all know this. It works as a decent revenge killer, a unboosted sweeper, and can now take out its would be checks thanks to its new tools.
As I stated, you can't hard counter it until you know all 4 moves Ninja is carrying. 9 times out of 10, your team is too worn down to the point it hardly even matters. Ninja forces so many switches, and just clicks whatever move the player feels like clicking at that given moment. Little risk, with the reward of killing something or HEAVILY denting it. Yes, Priority kicks its ass, we can all agree to this, but, that hardly matters when all it needs to do, is switch out of the obvious Priority move. I know what you're thinking, "Oh the classic 'just switch out' argument", well, let me stop you there. Let's say the same on the opposite side of the field, I switch in Ninja after you KO X mon. You can't use the "just switch out" argument, because there are very little things that enjoy coming in on Greninja. And just because you bring in Tentacruel, doesn't mean I don't have extrasensory finishing the job.
Now, don't get me wrong, lack of counters or checks is not what makes some thing obscenely broken. But when that something is fast as shit, has STAB on every move it carries, and thanks to LO, hits hard, there is a problem.
It's a smidgen below Mence in the "what the hell do I switch in now" department. It just doesn't hit as hard.
IMO, Ninja is definitely a huge, HUGE problem in the meta right now.
As I stated, you can't hard counter it until you know all 4 moves Ninja is carrying. 9 times out of 10, your team is too worn down to the point it hardly even matters. Ninja forces so many switches, and just clicks whatever move the player feels like clicking at that given moment. Little risk, with the reward of killing something or HEAVILY denting it. Yes, Priority kicks its ass, we can all agree to this, but, that hardly matters when all it needs to do, is switch out of the obvious Priority move. I know what you're thinking, "Oh the classic 'just switch out' argument", well, let me stop you there. Let's say the same on the opposite side of the field, I switch in Ninja after you KO X mon. You can't use the "just switch out" argument, because there are very little things that enjoy coming in on Greninja. And just because you bring in Tentacruel, doesn't mean I don't have extrasensory finishing the job.
Now, don't get me wrong, lack of counters or checks is not what makes some thing obscenely broken. But when that something is fast as shit, has STAB on every move it carries, and thanks to LO, hits hard, there is a problem.
It's a smidgen below Mence in the "what the hell do I switch in now" department. It just doesn't hit as hard.
IMO, Ninja is definitely a huge, HUGE problem in the meta right now.
k so like 80% of this is just downright false
Defensive teams dont take any unnecessary damage, lol. the whole playstyle is based on switching moreso than any other playstyle out there. and its not like stall lacks recovery or anything...
this argument is flawed simply because this has always been the case in competitive Pokemon, and especially in XY. The other thing is that greninjas checks are incredibly good mons in their own right and arent some obscure mon like Rocky Helmet Sableye to take on mega mom.
Oh, Kyurem-B was also like this as well so there's some more food for thought. Not having "true counters" =/= being OP
im sorry but name the bad mons I listed again? last I checked the only one that gets any hate is P2, but Im not gonna go into detail about him and just move on.
False point #1.
umm... no? you first listed the biggest problem Greninja has: he cant switch in. like, at all. This already limits his own team, as he needs VoltTurn support to even get into the game. And coming in and killing something through Revenge killing is and never was limited to Greninja. Yeah hes better at it than other mons, but hes not steamrolling teams once he gets that one free tturn.
How is this any different than switching Rotom into SD Talonflame? or Lando T into Rush Drill? you lose either of those mons when ur opponent has the other mons, youre losing just as easily, if not worse. last I checked that isnt unique to Greninja either, and sacking your win con is never a good idea for anything, seeing as how, it wins you the game. Thats like saying "I need to get my rotom in on this Talonflame, but he might take some damage if I switch directly, so lemme just sack my SD Lucario to prevent that, even tho Lucario wins me the game."
lol yeah he does. He gets eleven chances max to attack. Thats cut in half when hes forced in and out when Stealth Rocks are up. And the second he reaches 50%, hes in range from every priority attack in the game. Chances are hes not always gonna resist the ones your opponent has, and even when he does hes losing up to half his health depending on the move.
So why is a mon designed to shit on offense the worst thing ever when a mon designed to shit on stall was never even considered OP? My personal bias aside, Greninja was designed to take a shit on offense, but what you, as well as a lot of others from the arguments Ive seen, seem to forget is that Greninja struggles against stall and even balance to an extent. And yeah Spikes helps with this, but it only reduces his effectiveness against offense, so it s a pick your poison type of scenario.
Defensive teams dont take any unnecessary damage, lol. the whole playstyle is based on switching moreso than any other playstyle out there. and its not like stall lacks recovery or anything...
The same can be said about every top tier threat. DOnt have a bird resist? talonflame. no dark resist? Bisharp. no scarfer? DD Zard X. Greninja is not unique in this scenario.
its a good thing these mons are good for doing other things, huh?
do you know how much of a pain it is to be forced to run a flying, fairy, fighting, and ground resist / immunity on every team? yeah. id love to use a team without rotom, landorus-t, or a rock type on it every once and a while. sometimes a scarf latios would work better than a scarf lando t, but scarf latios leaves me incredibly weak to bisharp based on my team build, even though if bisharp didnt exist it wuld work wonders.
this argument is flawed simply because this has always been the case in competitive Pokemon, and especially in XY. The other thing is that greninjas checks are incredibly good mons in their own right and arent some obscure mon like Rocky Helmet Sableye to take on mega mom.
if hes getting free kills when you have one or two of these checks, then youre doing something wrong. ill go back to my own experience cuz i have quite a bit, but when i have ninja checks present its only when i get outplayed, misplay, or am just worse than my opponent that i get sweeped by greninja. hes on par with the other S rank threats, maybe a bit better than some, but hes not a god by any means, which is what youre making him out to be.
?_? last i checked i used Talonflame, Keldeo, Mega Scizor, etc regularly even before the Greninja hype so idk what the hell youre taking. one or two is all you need, just like any other offensive beat in ORAS. also chansey stall is all but dead, and Tentacruel easily counters Greninja and has rapid Spin to avoid being spikes bait. again, P2 is not nearly as bad as he was in ORAS, and i can and will argue that hes actually relevant outsode of Ninja and mence.
yes and no. he cant cover everything at once, and not all move options are optimal. there is a good reason for the same 4 attacks being used over and over with very little diversity, and thast because theyre the most effecitve and cover the widest array of threats. same applies to the spikes sets.
theres no argument that greninja s moves can be tailored to your team, but his lack of defensive synergy and switch in opportunities does not mean that sticking grass knot over dark pulse will fix your gyarados problem. the nonstandard moves should be used as lures, as well as a secondary back up for dealing with whatever mon it is trying to lure, because greninja is not a reliable answer for these, especially seeing as he cant switch in to 99% of these mons hes luring. its the same thing as, say, ice beam ttar. hes dead if he switches into lando t, and having the coverage wont fix a teams weakness to lando t, but it helps deal with the problem if another mon can semi reliably handle lando t as well.
lets travel back in time to gen 5, when there was a three headed beast that existed. legend has it that nothing could switch into this monster without potentially getting bopped by a coverage move. this mosnters name was hydreigon, who had no true counters and instead only conditional ones. However, once you knew his moves, you would know how to deal with Hydreigon. Now just replace Hydreigon with Greninja, add speed, remove some power, and take away all his bulk and you find yourself in the same exact scenario in that once you know what he's running, you can deal with him.
Oh, Kyurem-B was also like this as well so there's some more food for thought. Not having "true counters" =/= being OP
Just like Keldeo running HP Flying or Icy Wind on his specs set that allowed him to 2HKO his "counters", Lati@s and Mega Venusaur? Or Latios having earthquake to nail Heatran? Coverage is called coverage for a reason, and Greninja having a lot doesn't make him unique. It's also worth noting that Greninja misses out on a LOT of 2HKOes if he doesn't have an SE move for [insert mon I've named countless times above here]. I'd be more scared losing my Heatran to a well hidden EQ on Latios than losing my Ferrothorn to Greninja's HP Fire.
Youre gonna have to do better than that if you want me to take this last point seriously.
k. 80% of what you said was not unique to ninja in any way, shape, or form.
Ive played 100s of ORAS games and never once was I threatened by Glalie. And no, none of the sets I used or encountered were spikes. Theres a reason why hes in C rank, which is actually very generous for him, lol.
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I personally don't think Greninja is broken.
Yes, I agree you do have to play around him, either a check taking a chunk of damage or sacrificing a mon to revenge kill. However, I'd like to remind you that you also do that with most pokemon. In Greninja's case comes down to both players prediction, as its wide coverage just makes it difficult to switch in the appropriate check.
Generally when using Greninja, I find it has a pretty hard time switching into things as it's so frail, even resisted hits deal an uncomfortable amount of damage. I do know he's best off used as a revenge killer, this is merely to demonstrate how frail he is. Here are calcs for pokemon in OU that Greninja may feel safe enough to switch into based on a type match up and the player knowledge of the most typical set.
Another thing I have to bring up is that priority users and scarfed mons aren't on teams solely for dealing with Greninja. They just happen to be the easiest ways to do so. Priority moves are a staple in the 6th gen meta, plus the power creep in XY helped it phenomenally, imo they come under the term of being 'general good' moves, as they can be used with impunity and their presence isn't for a specific mon, but for a whole bunch.
All in all Greninja is a great pokemon, great but not necessarily broken.
Yes, I agree you do have to play around him, either a check taking a chunk of damage or sacrificing a mon to revenge kill. However, I'd like to remind you that you also do that with most pokemon. In Greninja's case comes down to both players prediction, as its wide coverage just makes it difficult to switch in the appropriate check.
Generally when using Greninja, I find it has a pretty hard time switching into things as it's so frail, even resisted hits deal an uncomfortable amount of damage. I do know he's best off used as a revenge killer, this is merely to demonstrate how frail he is. Here are calcs for pokemon in OU that Greninja may feel safe enough to switch into based on a type match up and the player knowledge of the most typical set.
The bottom two clearly provide the best opportunity to switch in (disregard the burn possibility), but still taking almost 20% on a low roll of its easiest switch in is not ideal, plus possible hazard damage and life orb recoil. Bringing Greninja in against a pokemon already in play is tough to do, even if he chases them out into something else.
Another thing I have to bring up is that priority users and scarfed mons aren't on teams solely for dealing with Greninja. They just happen to be the easiest ways to do so. Priority moves are a staple in the 6th gen meta, plus the power creep in XY helped it phenomenally, imo they come under the term of being 'general good' moves, as they can be used with impunity and their presence isn't for a specific mon, but for a whole bunch.
All in all Greninja is a great pokemon, great but not necessarily broken.
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Here's the thing, Switching into an oncoming attack is not what Ninja does. It comes in on slow Volt Switches/U Turns and favorable match-ups. Priority and its frailty are definitely horrible for it. However, that doesn't take away from it's insane power because of STAB + LO, ability to attack from both sides, and hit pretty much the entire OU tier hard as shit.
Sounds like mLuke all over again but to a lesser extent. . .
Sounds like mLuke all over again but to a lesser extent. . .
The reason I don't like the 4MSS argument against Greninja's ban is that you don't get any information from seeing any move. Really only Ice is guaranteed on every Greninja set at this point, and very few, if any, coverage moves rule out the possibility of another. For example, you know that a Latias + Slowbro core will be able to take on Keldeo; after all, no one will run both Icy Wind and Hidden Power Electric on the same set, right?
But for Greninja...ok, you put on one conditional check. Let's say Ferrothorn. It loses to HP Fire and physically based Low Kick Greninja.
OK, well, all we have to do is find another check that can take those coverage moves? Maybe Mew? But look at that, Greninja also has Dark Pulse. Why not? There's nothing strictly suboptimal about having both Dark Pulse and HP Fire. So you go on to find a third check, that can take Dark Pulse, HP Fire and Low Kick.
And suddenly, whoa, you need three checks to Greninja, or you really could just be forced to sac a pokemon every time it comes in, because your 1-2 revenge killers can't switch in all day. Greninja can almost risk-free predict your revenge killers to switch in, because if a slower pokemon switches in, what's the harm? It can just fry it the next turn, because you happened to bring the wrong set of checks.
Of course, the pure counters to Greninja that can switch in on any attack are not only very limited, the few that do exist hit as hard as a paper towel. That means they fit very poorly on offense teams, and they can't punish the opponent for giving up a free turn on Greninja's switch out. Which is why the old "it can just switch out" argument is actually a little more valid than most times.
But for Greninja...ok, you put on one conditional check. Let's say Ferrothorn. It loses to HP Fire and physically based Low Kick Greninja.
OK, well, all we have to do is find another check that can take those coverage moves? Maybe Mew? But look at that, Greninja also has Dark Pulse. Why not? There's nothing strictly suboptimal about having both Dark Pulse and HP Fire. So you go on to find a third check, that can take Dark Pulse, HP Fire and Low Kick.
And suddenly, whoa, you need three checks to Greninja, or you really could just be forced to sac a pokemon every time it comes in, because your 1-2 revenge killers can't switch in all day. Greninja can almost risk-free predict your revenge killers to switch in, because if a slower pokemon switches in, what's the harm? It can just fry it the next turn, because you happened to bring the wrong set of checks.
Of course, the pure counters to Greninja that can switch in on any attack are not only very limited, the few that do exist hit as hard as a paper towel. That means they fit very poorly on offense teams, and they can't punish the opponent for giving up a free turn on Greninja's switch out. Which is why the old "it can just switch out" argument is actually a little more valid than most times.
The difference between Mega Luke and Greninja is that Mega Luke can setup on a forced swap and kill everything with just 1 set (let's face it, the physical set alone was more then capable of muscling past pretty much everything). Greninja is not a sweeper. He is fairly easy to revenge kill with virtually any scarfer or priority abuser.
Also, Gren's revenge killing prowess is overstated. He can't revenge DDers without sash, he can't revenge setup sweepers with priority, he can't revenge speed boosters or weather abusers, and he's completely and utterly worthless against TR, there's a lot of things that he can't check. Given that he's not even guaranteed a target that he can kill even with a free swap in on an offensive team, I really am not seeing the OPness here.
Which is why I stated it's like mLuke, to a lesser extent. Instead of Setting up to obscene levels, it has STAB regardless of move type + LO, not mLuke power, but power none the less, power that makes a huge difference. Where the comparison comes into play is on what you are saying hurts him, they are the same things that hurt mLuke.
Regardless, no one can honestly sit here and say this thing isn't incredibly difficult to deal with provided the opponent has even the slightest idea of what they are doing. You can't just switch in X Pokemon "willy nilly", you have to scout to see, or risk it for the biscuit and possibly lose your Pokemon. It hits the entire OU tier hard, there is literally nothing that can switch into any of its moves and not risk the possibility of getting rocked by a STAB attack. Couple that with its obnoxious speed, and you have a grade A killer on your hands. Yes, it has noticeable downsides, but they are small in comparison to where it shines. Punching holes, and switching out. Arguably the second best Pokemon in the OU tier right now.
I've never had a problem with Greninja. Then again, I use ZardY who can eat everything Greninja throws at him at full health and OHKO with Solar Beam.
Hydro Pump and I think Gunk Shot can OHKO after Rocks, while Gunk Shot maybe-possibly-might let Greninja live a Solar Beam.
I miss the damage calculator ;-;
It's back up :)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 174-205 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 207-243 (69.6 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard-Y has to play a guessing game with Greninja (if it thinks it'll use hydro pump, it should use solar beam, if it thinks it'll use gunk shot, it should use fire blast), so it's not that reliable.
Thank the lord!
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (Poison-type): 110-130 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So yeah, even Charizard Y is not a safe check because of Gunk Shot and prediction shenanigans.
EDIT: Oh look, 1700 posts :o
You really could just pop off a Fire Blast if you're really paranoid about that situation considering this scenario.
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Sun: 228-268 (79.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This doesn't even factor SR or Life Orb Recoil so yeah just use Char-Y's best asset here if you're in this situation.
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Sun: 228-268 (79.7 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This doesn't even factor SR or Life Orb Recoil so yeah just use Char-Y's best asset here if you're in this situation.
WECAMEASROMANS
Banned deucer.
all y'all niggaz complainin bout ninja and want it banned rofl
first off, the whole "greninja 6-0s offense 2OP pls ban" statement has got to stop. Offense has a bunch of things that can check ninja. Even if offense doesnt have a switch in, thats not the point; offense teams arent supposed to have switch ins to everything. its not stall. they can check ninja pretty easily tho.
mega venusaur, keldeo, gyarados, talonflame, mega lopunny, mega aero, mega scizor, exca in sand, busharp, espeed dnite, mega manectric, scarf lando-t, scarf chomp, mega alakazam, thundy can paralyze if you're desperate, latias can tank a hit and ko back, these are just a bunch of mons off the top of my head that can check ninja, obv theres a bunch more. point is, all these mons are good, they do other things besides check ninja, and its not hard fitting at least one of those on your team
now lets not forget that its basically next to deadweight against stall. With chansey being one of the most universal members on stall, tentacruel and porygon2 usage skyrocketing aswell, stall is barely threatened at all by greninja. greninja's fraility and reliance on LO makes it very easy to wear down using residual damage as well
so yeah greninja is not at all broken n_n
first off, the whole "greninja 6-0s offense 2OP pls ban" statement has got to stop. Offense has a bunch of things that can check ninja. Even if offense doesnt have a switch in, thats not the point; offense teams arent supposed to have switch ins to everything. its not stall. they can check ninja pretty easily tho.
mega venusaur, keldeo, gyarados, talonflame, mega lopunny, mega aero, mega scizor, exca in sand, busharp, espeed dnite, mega manectric, scarf lando-t, scarf chomp, mega alakazam, thundy can paralyze if you're desperate, latias can tank a hit and ko back, these are just a bunch of mons off the top of my head that can check ninja, obv theres a bunch more. point is, all these mons are good, they do other things besides check ninja, and its not hard fitting at least one of those on your team
now lets not forget that its basically next to deadweight against stall. With chansey being one of the most universal members on stall, tentacruel and porygon2 usage skyrocketing aswell, stall is barely threatened at all by greninja. greninja's fraility and reliance on LO makes it very easy to wear down using residual damage as well
so yeah greninja is not at all broken n_n
Comments in bold.
Also Clone my arguments suck, so I think it's worth you talking to a better player about the matter and argue with them. It'd be a good experience, y'know. They can argue this better than I can.
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Notice all of none of those Pokes can freely switch in depending on its moveset. So, you must not only keep said check healthy. You have to sac a Poke to get it in, or take huge damage just to have ninja switch out into something to take whatever hit it may be. As well as scout to see what all 4 moves are before knowing how well those checks may work. I don't think any of us are saying it 6-0's teams. Ninja isn't a sweeper, it is a hit and run 'mon with the added benefit of hitting like a truck.
For the sake of comparison:
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 78-93 (12.1 - 14.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 83-99 (12.9 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
It fucking hits harder than Mild KyuB. . . Couple this power, with the ability to attack both sides (physical and special), insane coverage, STAB on everything and Speed, and you have a huge problem. Broken? Debatable. Suspect worthy? Absolutely.
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On Greninja... I don't want to go so far as to say "It's broken" because that discussion is for another time. However, Greninja gained something in ORAS that he lacked in XY: The ability to fuck with defensive teams. That's a relatively scarey concept. It was S rank for good reason, and still hasn't lost any edge coming into ORAS. Since most of the speed creep went to 120 or 110, he's still outspeeding most of the new megas before they start to dd or RP (diancie). The only ones he would've taken anyways that change out speed tiers with him after mega is Sceptile and Beedrill. I mean, I guess you could make a case for hitting Loppuny but I wouldn't be sticking around knowing I could eat a HJK and have no SE moves in reserve.
So establishing it hasn't regressed in ORAS. I think everyone and their mother can see that, but let's just have it in writing. Now, I want to talk about Greninja from a defensive perspective as opposed to the general offensive meta. Stall at the moment can drop Chansey and expect to counter Greninja. That's about it. I was using tentacruel but even Spdef tenta is getting 3hko'd by the more common extrasensory Greninja now (probably exactly for that and Venu's purpose). Fairies are a garbage choice right now, as we all know that Gunk shot is probably what brought this discussion around in the first place. Venusaur/Amoongus are shaky for obvious reasons: The presence of tentacruel is going to make Venusaur shaky and Amoongus always hated ice beam anyways. Vaporeon (yes, this lil shit) and Umbreon are seen as "valid counters" when I asked for some ideas earlier. I'm not even sure about Umbreon... Low Kick probably does it dirty.
I think what I'm trying to say here is even stall struggles finding good switchins to greninja outside of fatass chansey and some mons who have questionable viability. If you can get hit SE by Greninja, you're probably going to fall. It's a stress from the teambuilding perspective to find a switch in. Now... If Stall, which utalizes some of the bulkiest mons in the game, has issues finding consistent switch ins (again, outside of fatass), I'm just going to make a quick and easy blanket statement: Very few mons in the metagame can switch into Greninja with impunity.
Now. We know Greninja has fire power to dent. The low 103 SpA and 95 Att are masked by one important factor: Greninja gains an Aerialate/Pixilate ability on EVERY ATTACK (Stab+LO = the same as the ----ilate mons get). We all know how big this boost is. It's nearly adaptability power on every attack. Yes, we're factoring an item here, but this is a 1.95x boost to every attack. That's nasty.
So, when we're talking about Greninja, we do have to assume a few things to guarantee his success. First, he has to have a relatively clean switch. There's always going to be some weak attacks greninja can take, some predicted status turns (rocks/spikes/taunt and the lot) that he can come in on... These exist. And, I haven't seen these turns become SO LIMITING that greninja suffers. We also know that short of faster mons (very short supply) scarfers (generally 1 per team?) and priority mons, Greninja is going first. When he goes first, he generally is going to acheive a 2hko minimum esp on offensive teams. If a switch is made, unless you fall into the above categories, you're dead. If you're come into a breloom on a hydro pump, good job. You've stopped him until he comes back in. The most likely situation is you only have one or two mons that can take greninja when they come in free, so let's make another reasonable assumption: You're not switching those in to counter greninja unless you have a very, very good feeling on what's about to happen.
Yes, prediction. We can't exactly talk about this other than you and your opponent are not clairvoyant. If you are, why the fuck are you here? You could be doing so many better things with your life. So now that anyone who could've ever hoped to fall into that catagory are gone, let's talk about what happens most of the time you're facing Greninja, he's come in clean (aka situation above) and you have to select your next play.
What do you do? Well... Probably fodder. Throw something at Greninja to die that you don't think you need or need less than everything else and bring in your check. He takes LO + rocks, he takes your mon. This is especially true if your mon is something like (as clone so reasonably offered) "talonflame or keldeo". Scizor-mega may get away with it more times than not but you probably don't switch scizor in without having a free switch to do so. Realistically, we could even do this calculation with you predicting correct the first time: He takes rocks, LO. You take probably around 25-40% on some resisted hit (if you're switching in, you best not take more). He switches out. Your check probably can do that one more time, if at all. At that point, you and Greninja (Rocks/LO estimated for Ninja) would be at 50% barring any extra damage to you in other fights, any rocks, or Greninja doing more (basically, giving you a pretty friendly BCS). Name me a check going to take less than that every time and we can rework this. Unless you're running a bulky team, you probably see this scenario flying something in. Because here's another important note: Few (ie Empoleon) of Greninja's checks have immunities to his attacks [aka ground immunities don't count]. The rest will take legitimate damage from an attack.
Yes, you could argue that you get that attack on Greninja's turn out. You do. However, name me a mon that's going to have so little switchins like Greninja. The majority of the time between two well built teams, Greninja will have less pokemon switching into him well than his checks. I mean, we've all figured pokemon like Scarf Keldeo out to some extent. Same with Breloom, Conkeldurr if you're intent on their priority. And other scarfers? They may strain you with prediction more than they strain your opponent. And the fact that Greninja has three key components (raw power, raw coverage, great speed) make him one of the best attacking forces in the game.
In all of this, I didn't even bother to include the fact that he functions way better towards the end of the game where most of those teetering 2hko's become OHKOs due to prior damage. You don't need much damage to punch through Metagross-mega in one hit, do you. We've already seen the case with ZardY, and there are countless examples of pokemon who are very close to the threshold of being OHKOd by Greninja.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 265-315 (88 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
So argue what you want about him. Yes, he's frail. However, he doesn't need to take hits in his role. He's not a pivot: He's a cleaner and a revenge killer. Yes, he has checks and even some (few) counters. However, to bring those checks in often requires a lot of wear and tear, making them unable to switch in without you getting your own safe switch within a few hits. Weak to priority? I'd argue this a bit. Sure, vs Talonflame he'll never survive. However, if he uses Extrasensory, are you really able to check him with Mach Punch? If he's still dark type, Sucker punch doesn't work well. Ice Shard won't work well while he remains water type. These are all issues priority users would have to consider when facing him.
Overall, Greninja is one of the most influential mons in this early ORAS. While he's no mence, he definitely has aspects about him that are insanely limiting and unpredictable. To say without a doubt that he is not broken is just as bad as to say he is absolutely broken.
So establishing it hasn't regressed in ORAS. I think everyone and their mother can see that, but let's just have it in writing. Now, I want to talk about Greninja from a defensive perspective as opposed to the general offensive meta. Stall at the moment can drop Chansey and expect to counter Greninja. That's about it. I was using tentacruel but even Spdef tenta is getting 3hko'd by the more common extrasensory Greninja now (probably exactly for that and Venu's purpose). Fairies are a garbage choice right now, as we all know that Gunk shot is probably what brought this discussion around in the first place. Venusaur/Amoongus are shaky for obvious reasons: The presence of tentacruel is going to make Venusaur shaky and Amoongus always hated ice beam anyways. Vaporeon (yes, this lil shit) and Umbreon are seen as "valid counters" when I asked for some ideas earlier. I'm not even sure about Umbreon... Low Kick probably does it dirty.
I think what I'm trying to say here is even stall struggles finding good switchins to greninja outside of fatass chansey and some mons who have questionable viability. If you can get hit SE by Greninja, you're probably going to fall. It's a stress from the teambuilding perspective to find a switch in. Now... If Stall, which utalizes some of the bulkiest mons in the game, has issues finding consistent switch ins (again, outside of fatass), I'm just going to make a quick and easy blanket statement: Very few mons in the metagame can switch into Greninja with impunity.
Now. We know Greninja has fire power to dent. The low 103 SpA and 95 Att are masked by one important factor: Greninja gains an Aerialate/Pixilate ability on EVERY ATTACK (Stab+LO = the same as the ----ilate mons get). We all know how big this boost is. It's nearly adaptability power on every attack. Yes, we're factoring an item here, but this is a 1.95x boost to every attack. That's nasty.
So, when we're talking about Greninja, we do have to assume a few things to guarantee his success. First, he has to have a relatively clean switch. There's always going to be some weak attacks greninja can take, some predicted status turns (rocks/spikes/taunt and the lot) that he can come in on... These exist. And, I haven't seen these turns become SO LIMITING that greninja suffers. We also know that short of faster mons (very short supply) scarfers (generally 1 per team?) and priority mons, Greninja is going first. When he goes first, he generally is going to acheive a 2hko minimum esp on offensive teams. If a switch is made, unless you fall into the above categories, you're dead. If you're come into a breloom on a hydro pump, good job. You've stopped him until he comes back in. The most likely situation is you only have one or two mons that can take greninja when they come in free, so let's make another reasonable assumption: You're not switching those in to counter greninja unless you have a very, very good feeling on what's about to happen.
Yes, prediction. We can't exactly talk about this other than you and your opponent are not clairvoyant. If you are, why the fuck are you here? You could be doing so many better things with your life. So now that anyone who could've ever hoped to fall into that catagory are gone, let's talk about what happens most of the time you're facing Greninja, he's come in clean (aka situation above) and you have to select your next play.
What do you do? Well... Probably fodder. Throw something at Greninja to die that you don't think you need or need less than everything else and bring in your check. He takes LO + rocks, he takes your mon. This is especially true if your mon is something like (as clone so reasonably offered) "talonflame or keldeo". Scizor-mega may get away with it more times than not but you probably don't switch scizor in without having a free switch to do so. Realistically, we could even do this calculation with you predicting correct the first time: He takes rocks, LO. You take probably around 25-40% on some resisted hit (if you're switching in, you best not take more). He switches out. Your check probably can do that one more time, if at all. At that point, you and Greninja (Rocks/LO estimated for Ninja) would be at 50% barring any extra damage to you in other fights, any rocks, or Greninja doing more (basically, giving you a pretty friendly BCS). Name me a check going to take less than that every time and we can rework this. Unless you're running a bulky team, you probably see this scenario flying something in. Because here's another important note: Few (ie Empoleon) of Greninja's checks have immunities to his attacks [aka ground immunities don't count]. The rest will take legitimate damage from an attack.
Yes, you could argue that you get that attack on Greninja's turn out. You do. However, name me a mon that's going to have so little switchins like Greninja. The majority of the time between two well built teams, Greninja will have less pokemon switching into him well than his checks. I mean, we've all figured pokemon like Scarf Keldeo out to some extent. Same with Breloom, Conkeldurr if you're intent on their priority. And other scarfers? They may strain you with prediction more than they strain your opponent. And the fact that Greninja has three key components (raw power, raw coverage, great speed) make him one of the best attacking forces in the game.
In all of this, I didn't even bother to include the fact that he functions way better towards the end of the game where most of those teetering 2hko's become OHKOs due to prior damage. You don't need much damage to punch through Metagross-mega in one hit, do you. We've already seen the case with ZardY, and there are countless examples of pokemon who are very close to the threshold of being OHKOd by Greninja.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 265-315 (88 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
So argue what you want about him. Yes, he's frail. However, he doesn't need to take hits in his role. He's not a pivot: He's a cleaner and a revenge killer. Yes, he has checks and even some (few) counters. However, to bring those checks in often requires a lot of wear and tear, making them unable to switch in without you getting your own safe switch within a few hits. Weak to priority? I'd argue this a bit. Sure, vs Talonflame he'll never survive. However, if he uses Extrasensory, are you really able to check him with Mach Punch? If he's still dark type, Sucker punch doesn't work well. Ice Shard won't work well while he remains water type. These are all issues priority users would have to consider when facing him.
Overall, Greninja is one of the most influential mons in this early ORAS. While he's no mence, he definitely has aspects about him that are insanely limiting and unpredictable. To say without a doubt that he is not broken is just as bad as to say he is absolutely broken.
Greninja has been the most consistent pokemon for me in ORAS, it always puts in work. is it borked? honestly its very suspect worthy.
although as pointed out, Greninja is frail, thus weak to priority, and its got counters, these ain't good arguments against it at all. These arguements were used against Mega Luke Skywalker and he went anyway. these arguments apply even less so to Greninja because he isn't staying in like Mega Luke would 90% of the time. he's gonna GTFO and bide his time to come back in and nuke something else.
With Mega Force Jesus, you set up with your boosting move of choice, and you swept. However, if stuff like Talonflame, Conkeldurr and Breloom were alive and not in range to be killed with your Priority, you lost Lucario.
Greninja will slowly take care of its own checks and counters, wearing them down with its choice of moves. it'll also score free kills as your opponent switches in something to take a certain move, only to get smacked by another. it has so many viable moves, with the only lock in on its set being Ice Beam, but its not really gonna miss any of em. it has teammates or persistence for that.
Nothing in the Meta outside Vaporeon (lel) can consistently take it on. In XY any Fairy in the tier could tank its hits and force it out. Now it's the best Fairy Killer in the tier, hitting on their weaker spectrum with a 120 STAB SE move. only Klefki can take that and not be left smarting.
SO Greninja can sweep offence almost single handed, whittle down Stall, and wear down stall, again near single handed. with minimal support it tears apart teams. Once meance goes, the tier will warp around this thing, and there will be no real way to stop it. not 100% of the time.
I'd be sad to see it go, but in a suspect, thats the way i'd vote.
although as pointed out, Greninja is frail, thus weak to priority, and its got counters, these ain't good arguments against it at all. These arguements were used against Mega Luke Skywalker and he went anyway. these arguments apply even less so to Greninja because he isn't staying in like Mega Luke would 90% of the time. he's gonna GTFO and bide his time to come back in and nuke something else.
With Mega Force Jesus, you set up with your boosting move of choice, and you swept. However, if stuff like Talonflame, Conkeldurr and Breloom were alive and not in range to be killed with your Priority, you lost Lucario.
Greninja will slowly take care of its own checks and counters, wearing them down with its choice of moves. it'll also score free kills as your opponent switches in something to take a certain move, only to get smacked by another. it has so many viable moves, with the only lock in on its set being Ice Beam, but its not really gonna miss any of em. it has teammates or persistence for that.
Nothing in the Meta outside Vaporeon (lel) can consistently take it on. In XY any Fairy in the tier could tank its hits and force it out. Now it's the best Fairy Killer in the tier, hitting on their weaker spectrum with a 120 STAB SE move. only Klefki can take that and not be left smarting.
SO Greninja can sweep offence almost single handed, whittle down Stall, and wear down stall, again near single handed. with minimal support it tears apart teams. Once meance goes, the tier will warp around this thing, and there will be no real way to stop it. not 100% of the time.
I'd be sad to see it go, but in a suspect, thats the way i'd vote.
With all due respect. The title of the thread says "ORAS Metagame Discussion" and the opening mentions nothing about not suggesting that something may be or not be suspected. Now while making those suggestion might lead to the thread getting derailed, as it has been, I don't see a problem with it being mentioned say once or twice as someone's opinion until a Mod says otherwise like you now have.
For example, I haven't played since ORAS started and was trying to re-familiarize myself with the game. I knew Greninja had gotten better with Gunk Shot but was unaware of how good it seems to be until I came to this thread.
haunter
Banned deucer.
With all due respect:
1) read the general rules of this forum;
2) whenever we want people to discuss the suspect status of any given Pokémon, we explicitly say so;
3) if a moderator (let alone an administrator) asks you to drop a certain subject, you just do it.
Besides, nobody said you can't discuss Greninja, I just don't want to see people bring up that it should be suspect tested/banned.
Thanks for the cooperation.
I second this, frogboy literally never gets through more than one pokemon on my team. Unless its physical, namely power up punch. Then it kills EVERYTHING.
I have a problem with this paragraph. Greninja is nowhere near deadweight against stall with that powerful coverage. On the physically-based mixed set, Greninja is capable of 2HKOing Chansey after Stealth Rock or prior damage and nearly all other Pokemon on stall teams need to watch for the set aside from Porygon2, Tentacruel, defensive Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye and Cresselia. And the latter four still have to watch for specially-based sets with Extrasensory, Hydro Pump, Hidden Power Fire and/or Dark Pulse. Hydro Pump can probably replace Ice Beam or Dark Pulse on the physically-based set if necessary, so that limits Scizor a bit.
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 270-320 (42 - 49.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
12 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 229-273 (65 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 304-359 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 213-252 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 244-291 (57.6 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 283-338 (73.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 177-211 (46 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 172-203 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
12 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 187-221 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 144-172 (41.9 - 50.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
12 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 229-273 (65 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 304-359 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 213-252 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 244-291 (57.6 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 283-338 (73.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 177-211 (46 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 359-424 (91.1 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
244 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 172-203 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
12 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 187-221 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 144-172 (41.9 - 50.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja can be managed, yes, but it doesn't struggle against stall like your saying and its only true counter for every set is Porygon2.
EDIT: My post is okay because it doesn't mention a suspect/ban right?
Um...hey guys, I'm new here, and I just wanted to note a change I've noticed lately.
Mega blastoise got quite a bit better in ORAS. It handles beedrill, lopunny, aero (who's rising in popularity),mence lol, glalie, steelix, sharpedo, slowbro, diancie, empoleon, and some other stuff. Plus, usage of venu and to a lesser extent azu has gone down. I know it's new toy syndrome and all, but y'know. I'm not asking for it to go A rank or anything drastic; C+ or B- sounds about right to me.
Mega blastoise got quite a bit better in ORAS. It handles beedrill, lopunny, aero (who's rising in popularity),
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
uhh how does it handle any of the things you mentioned barring aero?
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 168-198 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 187-222 (52.2 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 158-188 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo Crunch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 199-235 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 168-198 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 187-222 (52.2 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 158-188 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo Crunch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 199-235 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Status