Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

[Ares]

One thing I would like to point out immediatly that although I began in ORAS NU thinking that Dragalge would be insanely broken, I'm somewhat on edge now. Sure, it's powerful with Adaptability and a potential boosting item such as Specs or a Draco Plate. However, I've found the Choice Specs set to be incredibly underwhelming, as getting locked into a Dragon or Poison STAB respectively lets many common pokemon in the metagame such as Klinklang or Slurpuff easily set up and sweep your team, and it is frankly prediction reliant to the point that it becomes a liability.
On the other side of the fence, we have what I believe the be the more effective sets in Draco Plate Haze and Toxic Spikes Attacker. I think that while slightly less prediction reliant and alleviating the setup issues of its Specs set, the power loss is incredibly significant and leaves a lot to be desired, and frankly I find that it is enough of a jump that it almost loses its "wallbreaking" power that you seek when seeing its stats in tangent with adaptability, and especially with its poor speed, even at 252 Timid you are likely outpaced by a slew of NU pokemon.
On the whole for Dragalge, I find it an incredibly powerful and versatile pokemon, but in testing I find some undeniably existant flaws that make it so that I am on the fence on my position in voting for its being kept or not.

I just want to point something out to you, with the amount of poison types that have surfaced and the need for teams to run a defensive Pokemon to cope with all of the offensive Megas, this provides pretty much a free switch into Dragalge to almost guarantee a KO or a crippling of something. It switches in for free on things like Weezing that can not do to much back aside from Will-O-Wisp it and then forces you to switch into something that takes at least 40% or more and a possible poison, further weakening it. This free switch in is pretty huge and not something to be overlooked.

 

[Ilhoon]

Altarianite: One of the best typings in NU. It can be physical, special, or mixed. It has set up moves such as DD to rip holes in any team as well as defensive moves like Cotton Guard and Roost to increase it's staying power, hell status doesn't even phaze Altaria as it has an answer in Facade/Heal Bell. BAN.

Dragalge: The choiced set is very easy to deal with. The only two major wall breaking moves have switch ins that get complete immunity, and for mons like Slurpuff/Klingklang get a free turn to set up on the switch out. Draco Plate set's coverage moves lose out on the extra damage. ALL sets are easily revenge killed. I don't see the problem honestly. Sure it gets free switch ins with the influx of poison types (*cough* more like just Weezing *cough*) but they won't be as needed if these megas/Slurpuff get banned. NO BAN.

Lopunnite: It's attacking movepool is basically limited to Return/HJK. Can easily be countered by quite a few NU physical walls and bulky psychics. I don't think I can say the words easily and counter in the same sentence with any other mega. Sure it does have a lot of options in support moves, but that's not gonna stop the fact that it will always have strong counters. NO BAN.

Slurpuff: Thanks to the addition of Drain Punch the BD set has almost no counters except for Weezing. Many are even running DP/Play Rough/Psychic as Return isn't really needed anymore and Psychic can 2hit KO the only 'counter' on the switch. Checks? Yeah good luck revenge killed a +6 boosted Unburden Pokemon with recovery. Even priority isn't an answer with the recovery DP gives now. BAN.

Sceptilite: Seems a little underwhelming to me? Personally I prefer Sceptile with an item over the mega. Don't have much experience using it, and I don't face it often either so I am a bit ignorant so for that reason I won't say wether it should be banned or not. I'll just repeat that it seems very underwhelming.

 

[trc]

Lopunnite: It's attacking movepool is basically limited to Return/HJK.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post since I haven't even read it yet, but this stuck out like a sore thumb. Yes Lopunny doesn't have the most coverage outside of Ice Punch, but what's wrong with just Return / HJK? It's unresisted among the entire tier thanks to Scrappy, so this is barely a bad thing at all, in fact it's actually a great thing because it allows Mega Lopunny to have two free slots for Fake Out or Ice Punch or Substitute or Baton Pass or Healing Wish or whatever you want; you mention Return / HJK like it's a bad thing when in reality it's a great boon for Mega Lopunny, having great coverage in just two moves.

 

[Ilhoon]

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post since I haven't even read it yet, but this stuck out like a sore thumb. Yes Lopunny doesn't have the most coverage outside of Ice Punch, but what's wrong with just Return / HJK? It's unresisted among the entire tier thanks to Scrappy, so this is barely a bad thing at all, in fact it's actually a great thing because it allows Mega Lopunny to have two free slots for Fake Out or Ice Punch or Substitute or Baton Pass or Healing Wish or whatever you want; you mention Return / HJK like it's a bad thing when in reality it's a great boon for Mega Lopunny, having great coverage in just two moves.

I'm not saying it's bad? Just not ban worthy. Its predictable and allows for actual counters unlike the other Megas that have so many posibilities. And really while nothing resists that combo it also hits almost nothing Super Effectively, lol.

Simply put Lopunny has counters. Not one or two questionable counters like everything else we are suspecting. You can take a probably poorly worded sentence out of what I said and make me out to be some idiot but my point is at the end of the day Lopunny is the healthiest mega we are suspecting right now.

 

[Punchshroom]

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post since I haven't even read it yet, but this stuck out like a sore thumb. Yes Lopunny doesn't have the most coverage outside of Ice Punch, but what's wrong with just Return / HJK? It's unresisted among the entire tier thanks to Scrappy, so this is barely a bad thing at all, in fact it's actually a great thing because it allows Mega Lopunny to have two free slots for Fake Out or Ice Punch or Substitute or Baton Pass or Healing Wish or whatever you want; you mention Return / HJK like it's a bad thing when in reality it's a great boon for Mega Lopunny, having great coverage in just two moves.

Why would you run Ice Punch on Mega Lopunny? Gligar ain't here bro.

While Lopunny's coverage is indeed unresisted in the tier, there usually isn't much it can do directly about bulky Fighting resists, since the best move it has for them is Return as its various other attacking options, like Fake Out, Drain Punch, or elemental punches, do not help it very much against them at all, which is likely what he meant by its limited attacking movepool (this much I can agree with). What makes Lopunny truly threatening is that it has two moveslots to do whatever it wants, and there isn't much that the bulky Fighting resists can do about Mega Lopunny's support options. That said, Mega Lopunny's support options are very good, but not diverse.

 

[CanadianWifier]

I just want to point something out to you, with the amount of poison types that have surfaced and the need for teams to run a defensive Pokemon to cope with all of the offensive Megas, this provides pretty much a free switch into Dragalge to almost guarantee a KO or a crippling of something. It switches in for free on things like Weezing that can not do to much back aside from Will-O-Wisp it and then forces you to switch into something that takes at least 40% or more and a possible poison, further weakening it. This free switch in is pretty huge and not something to be overlooked.

This very situation will not be as common though once you aren't forced to run 2 poison types on every team. Once [potentially] Slurpuff, Altaria, and Lopunny are gone, I can't imagine there being as many Poisons as there are now. Once the poisons die down, so does Dragalge free switch-ins.
Basically, dragalge is more potentially broken in this current mega than it might be in future metas.

 

[soulgazer]

I'm not saying it's bad? Just predictable and allows for actual counters unlike the other Megas that have so many posibilities. And really while nothing resists that combo it also hits almost nothing Super Effectively, lol.

just curious, could you name me what walls Mega Lopunny well (aka can take two hits and retaliate back) w/ calcs?

TheCanadianWifier I agree with you that Mega Sceptile was kinda underwhelming when I tried it out. Well, it might be because I only really tried the Swords Dance set myself (didn't get to try Special/Mix, which I have heard is WAY better) and that tbh normal Sceptile does Swords Dance better thanks to Acrobatics (better coverage IMO).

145 Speed with an immunity to Thunder Wave is great though and I can easily see Mega Sceptile being a top tier Pokemon, but it's just not as good as Mega Altaria and Mega Lopunny to me. I say we should give Mega Sceptile a bit more time before thinking about banning it.

edit: when I say underwhelming, I just meant that I didn't feel like Mega Sceptile was as good as like Mega Altaria or Lopunny btw

edit2: punchshroom makes me want to abuse special msceptile now

 

[trc]

Why would you run Ice Punch on Mega Lopunny? Gligar ain't here bro.

While Lopunny's coverage is indeed unresisted in the tier, there usually isn't much it can do directly about bulky Fighting resists, since the best move it has for them is Return as its various other attacking options, like Fake Out, Drain Punch, or elemental punches, do not help it very much against them at all, which is likely what he meant by its limited attacking movepool (this much I can agree with). What makes Lopunny truly threatening is that it has two moveslots to do whatever it wants, and there isn't much that the bulky Fighting resists can do about Mega Lopunny's support options. That said, Mega Lopunny's support options are very good, but not diverse.

Togetic I guess? Exeggutor? I just put it down because I mentioned it earlier among coverage options but in practise it isn't that effective, I was just mentioning one of the possibilities for that slot, because the slot is there. I didn't say Lopunny didn't struggle against its checks, I just said that by stating that its coverage is limited to two moves it implies that Mega Lopunny doesn't cover a lot of the meta because the implication is that it's a bad thing, which in practise it isn't as bad as the implication suggests.

 

[Punchshroom]

just curious, could you name me what walls Mega Lopunny well (aka can take two hits and retaliate back) w/ calcs?

Musharna, Togetic, Exeggutor, Vileplume, Weezing, Garbodor, Qwilfish, Tangela, Granbull, Uxie, Gourgeist-Super, and Pelipper are the extent of (physically defensive) Pokemon I know that can respond to Mega Lopunny well, surviving the 2HKO from Return and threaten with status or powerful attacks. Tangela is the best of the bunch since it takes the least damage and can passive heals itself to keep Mega Lopunny in check, while the others need to heal more often.

Edit:

And just for amusement, physically defensive Avalugg is only 3HKOed by Adamant Mega Lopunny's High Jump Kick, lol.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 204-240 (51.9 - 61%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

????

TheCanadianWifier I agree with you that Mega Sceptile was kinda underwhelming when I tried it out. Well, it might be because I only really tried the Swords Dance set myself (didn't get to try Special/Mix, which I have heard is WAY better) and that tbh normal Sceptile does Swords Dance better thanks to Acrobatics (better coverage IMO).

145 Speed with an immunity to Thunder Wave is great though and I can easily see Mega Sceptile being a top tier Pokemon, but it's just not as good as Mega Altaria and Mega Lopunny to me. I say we should give Mega Sceptile a bit more time before thinking about banning it.

The only solid checks to Mega Sceptile that I know of are Togetic, Flareon, and specially defensive Grass-types (I really doubt specially defensive Poison-types will be very popular looking at the physical mons they have to deal with). Aside from that, I find there are very little Pokemon that can fend off Mega Sceptile's assaults for very long; even the likes of Ferroseed, Cryogonal, and Audino will take absolute loads from Focus Blast, and I don't know how people can claim Poison-types can check Mega Sceptile when Dragon Pulse easily 2HKOes the majority of them, and can KO some even if they switch in on a resisted move instead. I find Mega Sceptile much harder to respond to than Mega Lopunny; Mega Lopunny was only truly threatening when it provides excellent support to its teammates (SubPass / Healing Wish) while maintaining offensive presence.

 

[Ares]

This very situation will not be as common though once you aren't forced to run 2 poison types on every team. Once [potentially] Slurpuff, Altaria, and Lopunny are gone, I can't imagine there being as many Poisons as there are now. Once the poisons die down, so does Dragalge free switch-ins.
Basically, dragalge is more potentially broken in this current mega than it might be in future metas.

Right, but you can't really try and ban / not ban something based upon a meta that hasn't come to pass. If it gets banned in the future, then there will be opportunities to retest it in future metas, lets just focus on this one :).

just curious, could you name me what walls Mega Lopunny well (aka can take two hits and retaliate back) w/ calcs?

Weezing, how lopunny beats it, encore and sub, or just baton pass on the switch, or just wear it down and run things that put pressure on weezing as well.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Granbull actually counters it, but in this meta full of poison spam its more of a liability than a help.
-1 252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Musharna, can recover on lopunny and KO it with a Pyschic, way to beat it is to just baton pass out or to have hazards wear it down.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 138-163 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Qwilfish, can cripple it with twave and tspikes and what not
-1 252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 100-118 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- 25.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Ugh, its annoying to be sniped when you are actually calcing stuff lol, so I just put this part in quotes.

 

[Ilhoon]

just curious, could you name me what walls Mega Lopunny well (aka can take two hits and retaliate back) w/ calcs?

252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 96-114 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- 68% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Uxie Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lopunny: 234-276 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 153-180 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Musharna can CM/Recover set up cause it counters so easily or if afraid of Encore then simply just kill with Psychics.

-1 252+ Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 109-130 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny: 240-284 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 120-142 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Can cripple with WoW

252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Can cripple with WoW

252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 97-115 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Can cripple with WoW

252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 118-141 (35.3 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
122 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lopunny: 94-112 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Pretty sure Tangela wins after GD recovery, not 100% sure though.

Not sure how common Jolly/Adamant is but I went with Adamant just to make y'all happy. I know of at least 4 more counters if it was running Jolly instead. And if rocks are out of the picture Qwilfish/Scarfed Scyther are answers I believe. Sitrus Berry Harvest Exegg could count as a counter as well, but didn't list it cause I don't know exactly what they run and I think I made my point by now anyways.

EDIT: O shit, my slow ass got sniped. That's what I get for doing this all on my phone ._.

 

[marilli]

On Dragalge: he is forced to run not-Specs because of the suspects, but the suspects are warping the metagame to where you're forced to run multiple Pokemon that are Dragalge bait. On one hand, Altaria and Slurpuff's existence makes sure that Dragalge isn't able to spam Specs Draco Meteor and get a kill, because you risk the deadly setup. With them out of the way, Dragalge will be significantly improved. On the other hand, removing the centralizing megas will reduce the number of Poison-types like Weezing. This makes Galge less good as the things he's good against aren't required anymore. This lets teams prepare well enough against Galge, and by then you'd be foolish to run Weezing / Qwilfish / etc. without a specially defensive Steel-type so that you at least force the predictions. I feel Dragalge's dependence on all the other suspects identify him as not the centralizing threat, but a product of the warped metagame that other centralizing Pokemon have created.

I believe Altaria and Slurpuff to be broken as anyone else. I'm sure everyone else has good arguments for its banning. I'd like to clarify the misconception that Drain Punch only helps against Steelix and Probopass. Drain Punch also gets to OHKO a lot of frail mons at +6, which means that you can't wear down Slurpuff with priority attacks like you could before. If you can set up on something and KO with +6 Drain Punch, you're basically forced to give back HP to Slurpuff which will bring it out of KO range of priority. Altaria is just bulky and strong and sets up and has diverse moveset and recovery and amazing typing offensively and defensively. I don't even know what else to say.

I feel that Altaria is really crowding out Mega Sceptile atm, and that's why some people find M-Scept not as rewarding in practice as it should right now. I don't really care one way or the other. I'm not the one voting anyways. Mega Lopunny's supportive strengths are a bit too much, especially with that kind of damage output. If we're just looking at it offensively, yes, you can deal with it. Problem is, can you deal with Subpass / healing wish / etc. on top of that?

 

[soulgazer]

also just want to point out that Drain Punch Drum Puff isn't considered 'too much for NU' because that it can now hit Steel-types (which Flamethrower mix could do for most of the Steel-types already), its more about how Belly Drum Slurpuff can now last longer thanks to Drain Punch. Fake Out hit & run won't work anymore. +6 Drain does a ton to anything that doesn't resist it and just makes it easier for Slurpuff to stay healthy enough to take most priority moves.

back to Lopunny (mainly at mont): psure Adamant is used more on it since jolly only really is for like Timid M-Pidgeot, Jolly Swellow, and neutral nature Mega Sceptile/Beedrill and other Lopunny (tbh wouldn't be surprised if a Jolly Return fails to OHKO M-Sceptile or M-Pidgeot lol). I don't think Adamant gives it enough power to break through the counters you guys listed, but that power boost certainly is enough to help it 2HKO stuff like PhDef Seismitoad more easily and OHKO more offensive mons w/ just Stealth Rock up (I am speaking from experience right now, I will try to add calcs later). it can still outspeed base 120 speed and below iirc w/ Adamant, so its not like it misses on too much speed wise.

what im trying to say is: If Lopunny wrecks most offensive teams (priospam and choice scarf users w/ entry hazards is the only way ive seen for offensive teams to handle it.. well i guess there's HJK missing too lol) and forces you to run some really physically defensive walls on bulkier teams just to atleast have an answer to it.. just to find out that its running SubPass and Lopunny pass the Substitute to something that just destroy your 'counter'.. I honestly don't know how you can think Mega Lopunny is fine.

 

[Evan.]

Let me start off my post by saying I'll provide my thoughts and as many relevant calcs and situational examples that support those thoughts. If anyone disagrees with my opinions as a whole or any of my points, feel free to reply with such.

It seems the general opinion is that Mega Lopunny, Mega Altaria and Slurpuff are all broke af, and I haven't played much with M-Sceptile, so I'll just be talking about Dragalge

Dragalge: dragalge is slow and powerful with choice specs. I fully believe that Dragalge should get the boot from NU. The fact that Dragalge can switch in on 90% of defensive pokemon in the tier as well as any offensive grass type and practically guarantee a kill is what makes it so good. The list of B-Ranked and up mons that Drag gets practically a free switch on includes Weezing, Vileplume, Qwilfish, Gurdurr, Garbodor, Mega Audino, Ferroseed, Lanturn, Poliwrath, Tangela, Lickilicky, Pelipper, Roselia, Togetic, Choice-Locked Typhlosion (not into extrasensory), Probopass (which you hit with FB) as well as any offensive grass type lacking Earthquake outside of Mega-Sceptile. Not to mention that it can use it's incredible defensive typing and natural bulk to switch into attacks from offensive mons such as Rotom and Mismagius. Once Dragalge gets a free switch in, something on the opponent's team usually either dies or takes upwards of 60% to the bulkiest of specially-bulky mons.

Disclaimer: All calcs are based off the most viable sets/spreads in my opinion. Dragalge's Calcs will be based off the Dragon Fang set. These Calcs are based on mons that would supposedly come in on a Dragalge after it gets a switch in from the list above. All of the mons listed above outside of Ferroseed either gets OHKO'd or outsped and 2HKO'd

252+ SpA Dragon Fang Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 256-302 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragon Fang Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 244-288 (68.9 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragon Fang Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 248 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 256-302 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragon Fang Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 316-374 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Dragon Fang Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 175-206 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO lmao
252+ SpA Dragalge Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 176-208 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (Steelix is outsped and 2HKO'd)

If all the evidence above, plus the fact that Dragalge would basically make Grass and Poison types a liability to use on one's team isn't enough maybe my next point is.

Everyone's counter-argument for why Dragalge should stay is that once the broken stuff leaves the tier, the meta will shift and Drag won't get as many free switch-ins as before. What they don't realize is that many of the mons I listed above are vital to keeping all of the previous offensive threats in the meta in check. With the fear of auto-sacking a mon to Dragalge, all the mons listed above will all dive in usage in high level play. With most of their checks gaining a massive drop in viability, Offensive mons such as Feraligatr and Typhlosion will have a field day. Stall and Semi-Stall will be deemed unviable due to the fact that based on team structure, they give Dragalge too many free switch ins. The meta will revolve around HO, kill or be killed, similar to what we have now. We'll have banned all of these powerful offensive centralizing threats, only to have created a new ORAS meta around powerful offensive threats whose checks are deemed less viable due to Drag's presence.

tl;dr even though Dragalge is feeding off of the effects of the broken megas, if we ban them we will create a HO meta that will feed off of the effects of Dragalge's sheer wallbreaking power.

If you have any questions or disagree, I would be happy to explain/refute your points. Have a nice day and Ban Dragalge.

 

[Ares]

also just want to point out that Drain Punch Drum Puff isn't considered 'too much for NU' because that it can now hit Steel-types (which Flamethrower mix could do for most of the Steel-types already), its more about how Belly Drum Slurpuff can now last longer thanks to Drain Punch. Fake Out hit & run won't work anymore. +6 Drain does a ton to anything that doesn't resist it and just makes it easier for Slurpuff to stay healthy enough to take most priority moves.

Just to add on to this, Slurpuff resists the more common offensive priorities of Mach Punch and Sucker Punch while users of Shadow Sneak and Extreme Speed are irrelevant, Aqua Jet is a thing but not everyone is a fan. One of the biggest ways to keep Slurpuff in check was Kangaskhan's Fake Out and the ability to wear down Slurpuff. Like Soulgazer said the addition of Drain Punch provides some great survivability while adding an addition to take on Steel-types.

A great way to check Slurpuff is to run a Ghost-type on your team, when Slurpuff tries to set up deal as much damage as possible (hopefully you get it to around 20-30%), then switch into your Ghost-type as a sack not letting them get any recovery, then revenge it with your priority. A good strat for any Hyper Offense teams looking for a way to deal with puff reliably.

sg edit: every good HO needs a ghost type anyway <:)

Mont Edit @ below: the way to check slurpuff was ment for a more HO based team, you can have other checks / counters for balance / stall.

 

[Ilhoon]

A great way to check Slurpuff is to run a Ghost-type on your team, when Slurpuff tries to set up deal as much damage as possible (hopefully you get it to around 20-30%), then switch into your Ghost-type as a sack not letting them get any recovery, then revenge it with your priority. A good strat for any Hyper Offense teams looking for a way to deal with puff reliably.

sg edit: every good HO needs a ghost type anyway <:)

So I need to pray Slurpuff doesnt come in on something that cant deal enough damage to KO with prio, sack a ghost mon, include strong enough priority user on my team, and if all goes well I can check Slurpuff?

Pls don't ban Slurpuff we've found a viable answer :^)

 

[CanadianWifier]

I'd like to clarify the misconception that Drain Punch only helps against Steelix and Probopass. Drain Punch also gets to OHKO a lot of frail mons at +6, which means that you can't wear down Slurpuff with priority attacks like you could before. If you can set up on something and KO with +6 Drain Punch, you're basically forced to give back HP to Slurpuff which will bring it out of KO range of priority.

also just want to point out that Drain Punch Drum Puff isn't considered 'too much for NU' because that it can now hit Steel-types (which Flamethrower mix could do for most of the Steel-types already), its more about how Belly Drum Slurpuff can now last longer thanks to Drain Punch. Fake Out hit & run won't work anymore. +6 Drain does a ton to anything that doesn't resist it and just makes it easier for Slurpuff to stay healthy enough to take most priority moves.

Just in case either of those were referring to my earlier post about Pluff, I did mention how important it is that you can now use it as a non-miss coverage move [ala, return] and use it to keep yourself out of Kanga revenge kill range, though I probably should have emphasized it a bit more.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough to start :[

• Also I'd like to remind those doing calcs that Lopunny's true potential doesn't just lie in it's offensive capabilities. You still have good ol' Lopunny's support movepool as well, from which it can pick either 1 or even 2 moves to mess around with [1 or 2 based on whether or not you want to run Fake Out]. These range from offensively orientated stuff like PuP and Agility, to equally dangerous support stuff like Heal Bell, Healing Wish, Encore, Baton Pass, Substitute, and Magic Coat.

When you combine the fact that it's relatively hard to switch into, it's really fucking fast, and it has a ton of extra ways to screw you over too, it just isn't healthy to keep around in NU.


-

 

[Kiyo]

So I'll make a post tomorrow about all the Pokemon up for suspect testing, but I just want to point out something I've been using to great success, Metang. Every post I've seen in this thread regarding Metang is condescending in nature and I'm not quite sure why, it's a very good Pokemon in this metagame and can fulfill some useful niches that a lot of teams struggle to find.

Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Meteor Mash
- Psych Up
- Bullet Punch

Stealth Rock is cool, especially if you don't already have it on your team. Toxic and Meteor Mash are kind of interchangeable depending on how you want to get your chip damage. Psych Up is quite literally one of the coolest options this thing gets, it was great last gen for BU Braviary and it fills a similar purpose right now as it can copy Slurpuff's +6 Attack boost from Belly Drum. Another cool thing is that +6 BP like always OHKOs Slurpuff. I'll list some relevant calcs below showing how well this thing does against some of the most "broken" pokemon right now. I've been running this with other defensive Pokemon that can take some of the pressure off Metang, wish passers like Audino and Pokemon that take on similar threats like Weezing have made good partners so far especially since this thing lacks reliable recovery.

These are all the strongest potential attack a suspect has to hit Metang with:

252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 106-125 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 149-176 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Sceptile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 87-103 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 173-204 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 90-108 (27.8 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

+6 8 Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 312-368 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fairs pretty well against all of them, even the ones you're not even meant to counter, lol.

tl;dr Metang is good, stop talking about it like its an extremely niche option and in general bad. kthnx

edit@below: yeah you can run zen headbutt, earthquake, ice punch, etc. depending on what you want to beat specifically

 

[Ares]

So I'll make a post tomorrow about all the Pokemon up for suspect testing, but I just want to point out something I've been using to great success, Metang. Every post I've seen in this thread regarding Metang is condescending in nature and I'm not quite sure why, it's a very good Pokemon in this metagame and can fulfill some useful niches that a lot of teams struggle to find.

Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic / Meteor Mash
- Psych Up
- Bullet Punch

Stealth Rock is cool, especially if you don't already have it on your team. Toxic and Meteor Mash are kind of interchangeable depending on how you want to get your chip damage. Psych Up is quite literally one of the coolest options this thing gets, it was great last gen for BU Braviary and it fills a similar purpose right now as it can copy Slurpuff's +6 Attack boost from Belly Drum. Another cool thing is that +6 BP like always OHKOs Slurpuff. I'll list some relevant calcs below showing how well this thing does against some of the most "broken" pokemon right now. I've been running this with other defensive Pokemon that can take some of the pressure off Metang, wish passers like Audino and Pokemon that take on similar threats like Weezing have made good partners so far especially since this thing lacks reliable recovery.

These are all the strongest potential attack a suspect has to hit Metang with:

252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 106-125 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 149-176 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Sceptile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 144-170 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 87-103 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 173-204 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Metang: 90-108 (27.8 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

+6 8 Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 312-368 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Fairs pretty well against all of them, even the ones you're not even meant to counter, lol.

tl;dr Metang is good, stop talking about it like its an extremely niche option and in general bad. kthnx

You can also run Zen Headbutt for Dragalge and use this as a switch in for that 2. Its actually really good in this meta having unique typing to be able to check multiple threats, I think ppl were just referring to the fact that it used to be a niche pokemon.

sg edit: mixed w/ psychic is also quite fun to potentially 2hko Weezing :)

 

[Bobby REKT]

Not that It hasn't already been said, but as we can see here, with out a doubt, Mega Altaria needs to go. The ridiculous bulk, and extremely good typing allows it to set up on a majority of the tier, once its ONLY check is out of the game(weezing), it can easily sweep.

Mega Lopunny: I'm with TheCanadianWifier here, I believe this mega is just beyond broken. Alot of the argument regarding this mon is that it may have the "checks", like Ilhoon suggested, but I believe you're missing the point. Doing 30% to mons that are supposed to be counters if freaking huge. Might I add that all of these checks and counters that you suggested are destroyed by Adaptability Dragalge. Simply put, no check or counter should have to take 12% from rocks, then 30% from HJK. That's 42% per switch in, which makes that "checks" job of walling mega lopo 10x harder, unless you're running some sort of recovery, such as rest granbull and that's the only mon with that see that can consistently walls mega lopunny, but once again, once that lopunny switches out, like any good player would once a check comes in, to it's partner in crime, Dragalge, you're either ohkoing a mon, or taking rocks+60-80%. There's simply no way that this mon should be NU.

Slurpuff: I personally haven't had any problemswith this mon, because I've ran weezing/garbodor on all of my team since ORAS's release. But, what I have done is give this mon a try and it is absolutely retarded. Giving this mon 1 move, drain punch, absolutely broke it. Slurpuff is the reason for the rise of weezing and garbodor. In team building. I'm with TheCanadianWifier here on this once again. Because this mon has protect (*Cough* iplaytennislol *cough*), it's beat as easily by kanga,hariyama, and kecleon. In fact, at +6, slurpuff ohkos all these mons with 1 drain punch. In teambuilding you simply shouldn't have to force yourself to use weezing or garbodor to prepare for 1 mon. That promotes an overly centralized meta, and NU is meant to be fun! ;[.. Please dont OU NU.. please.. ban this mon..


Mega Sceptile: In all honesty I wasn't too impressed with this mon =/. I feel as though it should have gotten an ability that wasn't situational, or kept overgrow, and I'd much rather use regular special sceptile. I feel as though physical mega sceptile is where it really shines, as a late game sweeper I feel at though it'd be really strong,and healthy for he NU meta game and it's something really fun to use. Other than that, I feel as thought this mon is easily handled and not much of a threat that jumps out at me.

Dragalge: I'm on the fence with this mon. With the addition of adaptability, it's rarely used on stall which makes me extremly fking happy, but it has literally 0 switch ins and I've seen it probably on 70% of the teams that I've gone against. I feel as though the people of NU are extremely creative and they will eventually find things that counter this mon as they always have and we should give dragalge a little bit more time before we make a final decision on it. EDIT: Reading Can-Eh-Dian 's post about Dragalge completely changed my mind on it, nice fucking analysis man, that brought a tear to my eye. #DEATHTODRAGALGE

But as of now, I feel as though NU is extremely fun and it should stay that way. Plz council, dont ban everything :(

 

[mertyville]

I am actually suprised that Mega Camerupt isn't considered for a quick bann but I guess that the large amount of water types makes it difficult for it to come in.

Lopunnite: Insane Speed, Great Attack, probobly the best coverage on which it has both STAB on and high base power moves Return/Frustration + Hi Jump Kick, can deliver great support for team mates in need with moves like Healing Wish, Trolls Ditto and obvious WoW with Substitute.

Altarianite: This thing just does no die with its great defensive Typing, Pixelate Return/Frustration is so powerful that it can even go for a mono attacking Dragon Dance set with Heal Bell/Substitute + Roost, punches holes with the special set thanks to its insane coverage.

Dragalge: This thing was already pretty good but now it gets Adaptability? I don't think I can add anything new to what wasn't mentioned. Great Typing allows it to switch into Grass, Fire, Water, Poison, Bug, Fighting, and it has coverage to deal with Steel Types and Psychic Types don't want to switch into any of its STAB.
Physical Attackers don't want to switch into Scalt and get potencially burned forcing to sack something or run Lum Berry hence losing additional power.
Under Trick Room it can potencially go mixed with Gunk Shot.

Sceptilite: It suprisingly seems rather underwhelming. Thunder Wave immunity is nice though but thats pretty much all it has going. Most Electric Types run Hidden Power Ice anyways which limits its potencial switch ins.
I think that thing is actually a really well made Mega for NU, since it relies on Electric Types to boost its Special Attack forces it to run mixed or physical to cover more threats.

 

[Lord Alphose]

Finished testing stuff, time for mah post! I'll be short about it.

Altarianite: Yeah, Mega Altaria should probably go. With minimal effort, Altaria can get up at least one Dragon Dance, two if they make a misplay. I'm just curious, what are people saying counter M-Altaria? Because I'm really having trouble finding something that solidly puts a stop to it. Aside from Weezing, that is.

Loppunite: Holy crap, this thing is way too good to be here. It's absurd how many games I've won, despite shitty choices on my part, just because of how fast and powerful Mega Lopunny is. And shit, Healing Wish on such a fast Pokemon and it doesn't lose any coverage because Scrappy gives it everything it'll ever need.

Sceptile: Great Pokemon, all around fun to play with. When I tested it, I tried out both a special set and a physical Swords Dance set. And both, while dangerous, were taken out with relative ease, as Sceptile did not have the sheer offensive power to overcome its threats like I was hoping it would've gotten. It's ability doesn't provide as much utility as possible, as its typing already gave it a 4x resistance to Electric-type attacks. I mean, it gives a cool immunity to Thunder Wave, and it forces out Choice-locked Electric-types, like Rotom or Zebrstrika. Because of all this, I'm absolutely indecisive on this. Most people above me are saying that it shouldn't be banned because it's underwhelming, but it can overwhelm quite a bit as far as I've seen.

Draglage: I agree with Tennisace, tbh. I would rather wait until after the megas have been dealt with before dealing with this. Just because I think the megas are more of an "is this thing ruining the metagame?" type of thing as opposed to this, where it's possible that the metagame could adapt should we give it more time.

Slurpuff: See Dragalge above.

It's about 1 in the morning, I'll expand on my ideas when I'm not falling asleep in my chair.

Also, just curious how this works. It's just a council vote, yeah?

 

[g]

Just gonna comment on the Pokemon i have already used in the tier and leave out of my post stuff i haven't tried extensively (might make a post about them later if i get a chance to).

Dragalge is perhaps on paper the most powerful wallbreaker that has even touched NU tier. With enough coverage in its STAB moves and Focus Blast to 2HKO the whole tier it is really really difficult to switch into this monster unless you predict right. In reality while its Dragon-type STAB looks very spammable it really isn't that easy to lock yourself into a move and you are forced to run Dragon Fang to avoid being setup on by monster threats such as Slurpuff and Mega Altaria (and the ultra underrated NastyPass Togetic). Its other two moves also have common immunities/strong resistances to boot making the prediction guessing game even harder for the Dragalge user who can, however, get very big results if it clicks on the right move. Dragalge is also very slow and, while it doesn't really struggle to switch into walls, against the faster of those it usually has to take 2 hits before retaliating back which makes it relatively fast worn down. For now I'll say that it is manageable but I really hope that after this series of quickbans (which should happen lol for the most obvious ones like altaria) it doesn't prove to be much of a problem as there will still be deterrents to just click Draco and watch it do incredible damage even to bulky resitstances.

Mega Sceptile is another powerful threat in NU right now. While it isn't much stronger than its regular counterpart if it doesn't use a Modest Nature (which only leaves you outrun by rare stuff like +2 gorebyss and positive Beedrill/accelgor) and only has Dragon STAB (but no Draco Meteor) and Lightingrod (actually very cool) over it it might look very sub par in paper but the fact that it can run a very effective physical set with Outrage and Earthquake is probably the coolest thing about it. The fact that physical walls that counter it don't enjoy facing a special set all adds to its unpredictability and SD Outrage is quite strong anyway (beware of aforementioned fairies tho). I guess this is manageable after all as its moves arent incredibly powerful and having megas such as altaria around maybe makes it less effective.

Mega Lopunny is ridiculous. The fact that it only needs two STAB moves to hit anything in the tier ridiculously hard (bar Tangela basically) leaves it a lot of free moveslots to run Substitute, Baton Pass, HEALING WISH, Fake Out, elemental punches, Toxic, whatever really and the fact that it completely demolishes offense (like a way faster Kangashkhan who can beat its Rock- and Steel-type counters) and pretty much any playstyle (even stuff like Weezing cant switch into it multiple times) makes me feel like this needs to be banned immediately, I am sure.

Slurpuff has already been talked about and the fact that now its even harder to revenge kill with drain punch and combines the coverage of cm with the immediate power of belly drum makes it a ridicolously big threat which I cant really see in this tier :/

 

[Deej Dy]

Brawlfest about your post on dragalge with steels easily setting up on it.... Trust me I've tried ;(

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 219-258 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[boltsandbombers]

Brawlfest about your post on dragalge with steels easily setting up on it.... Trust me I've tried ;(

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 219-258 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm pretty sure he was referring to a -2 Draco meteor, but you are correct in saying that most steel types take a huge hit from it.