-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)
- Thread starter WhiteDMist
- Start date
- Status
They will possibly have a suspect in the near future, the others where clearly broken and as such needed to go as fast as possible. Camerupt due to its low speed and the tier having walls such as lickilicky and togetic wasn't quick banned to give the meta an opportunity to adapt to the 3 megas we have left. If in a little bit the council deems that they need a suspect test then one will be conducted, or if you feel that Mega Camerupt is clearly broken then you can post about it in this thread.
I'm not exactly sure if you're trolling or not, but Avalugg is not a suicide pokemon, nor does it even get stealth rock.
I have a different rock setter. I use Pineco, even though it's LC, because it has both rocks and Rapid Spin. Here's my set (I know it isn't the best set):
Planted Bomb (Pineco) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
Planted Bomb (Pineco) (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
Pineco is a bad rock setter and spinner. As a wall it has one of the worst defensive typings in the game. Even with Eviolite its physical bulk is not that great, and it's special bulk is absolutely horrible. It can't beat any spinblocker, and it has no offensive presence at all. I don't know what Rock Slide is supposed to hit, but it won't do much :I.
I desided to do some calcs with this thing to see if has any niche at all (you never know before you calc)
With some atk investment you have a 50% to OHKO swanna after SR with explosion lol
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 200-236 (68.7 - 81%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
rock slide does not even 3HKO because of Roost
Lets check out against other hazard removers (4 the lulz):
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lumineon: 118-139 (34.5 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Avalugg: 81-96 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 77-91 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 248 HP / 160 Def Eviolite Togetic: 89-105 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
60 Atk Pineco Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 168-200 (52.3 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 184-217 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
60 Atk Pineco Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vullaby: 119-141 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As you probably see, Pineco is weak as shit and can only deal with one Offensive defogger (and that is asuming you even get SR up, which is really hard when practically everything can switchin with little problem. Dont use Pineco (unless you are a dick and use the OH NO ITS PINECO set, which also sucks but is annoying af for HO) PS pineco does not outspeed any of these. neither does it survive anything worth mentioning
On the talk on Rapid spinners, what seems to be the best possible Avalugg set? I did some calcs but I did not find anything special it survives with 248/252+ sp.def, and 248/252+ def seems kinda like overkill since only like 4 physical pokemon can break it without setup or hazards lol.
EDIT: Magnemite thx m8
Last edited:
Both 248 HP / 252 SpD Careful and 248 HP / 252 SpD Impish are good Avalugg spreads. Compared to 252 Special Defense, 252 Defense Avalugg takes around 10% less from physical attacks but around 30% more from special attacks. You can also get a lot of that 10% back by using an Impish nature with 252 SpD EVs, as unlike with EVs, Defense and Special Defense boosting natures have about the same effect on Avalugg. For these reasons, you should never be running Defense EVs on Avalugg.
Also Pineco is indeed pretty terrible, but if you want an SR setter that can also remove hazards, Prinplup is a very solid and underrated choice that I definitely recommend trying out on defensive or balance teams.
MASS UPDATE
So ORAS has come around and we have a bunch of new toys to play with. Some toys were broken right off the bat (M-Lopunny, M-Beedrill, M-Altaria) and were banned. Problems with Pokemon Showdown made things a little difficult, but here we are with a tier update! Look at this thread for a more in-depth explanation.
Main things to note are:
Some of this stuff is irrelevant to PU as we had already banned them, but the notable points are that Pidgeot is now RU and Leafeon has dropped to PU. Only time will tell how big of an impact this will make on the tier.
Anty is now part of the PU Permanent Council! Congratulations for your hard work and contributions!
We have two Mega Pokemon remaining in PU: Mega-Glalie and Mega-Camerupt. We also have a defining Pokemon in Garbodor. Let's have some discussion about these particular threats, are any of them broken?
OP will be updated soon. Bye bye birdie :(
So ORAS has come around and we have a bunch of new toys to play with. Some toys were broken right off the bat (M-Lopunny, M-Beedrill, M-Altaria) and were banned. Problems with Pokemon Showdown made things a little difficult, but here we are with a tier update! Look at this thread for a more in-depth explanation.
Main things to note are:
Code:
Lopunny moved from PU to RU
Altaria moved from PU to UU
Leafeon moved from NU to PU
Pidgeot moved from PU to RU
Beedrill moved from PU to UUAnty is now part of the PU Permanent Council! Congratulations for your hard work and contributions!
We have two Mega Pokemon remaining in PU: Mega-Glalie and Mega-Camerupt. We also have a defining Pokemon in Garbodor. Let's have some discussion about these particular threats, are any of them broken?
OP will be updated soon. Bye bye birdie :(
yoooo leafeon
when is the ladder gonna be updated
when is the ladder gonna be updated
:] Looking forward to using it
It will be when one of the programmers implement it which shouldn't be hard. Dell can probably tell them to do that since I'm going to bed now! zzz
Taking a quick look at it, it seems like an alright pokemon. low special defense and HP with a tier with threats like Ninetails and Camerupt may give it some trouble. Knock off being in its movepool is a godsend, especially for people like me who don't like using Sneasel.
However, being at 95 speed is great when you consider that Flareon and Glaceon are both at 65 , and combined with its awesome 130 base defense, 110 base attack, and the ability to ACTUALLY BOOST (swords dance) along with awesome moves like leaf blade, x-scissor, and knock off make leafeon a great addition to the PU family. I can't wait to try this thing out.
However, being at 95 speed is great when you consider that Flareon and Glaceon are both at 65 , and combined with its awesome 130 base defense, 110 base attack, and the ability to ACTUALLY BOOST (swords dance) along with awesome moves like leaf blade, x-scissor, and knock off make leafeon a great addition to the PU family. I can't wait to try this thing out.
It does face much competition from the multiple other Grass-type Pokemon the the tier, not to mention multiple Pokemon which can easily take its hits. I think its main thing is being bulky enough to Swords Dance + Baton Pass which is always nice for other mons on the team
hi, i am of the opinion that Garbodor, Mega Camerupt, and to a lesser extent Mega Glalie need to be suspected.
I haven't used the two megas much at all, so I won't talk about them much, but I have plenty of experience with Garbodor, so I'll talk about that and maybe post about the other two later.
Garbodor is a very centralizing force in PU. Any team that does not have either a grounded poison type or a defogger is immediately weak to it, since it can come in on half the best mons in the tier with ease, including the most common pokemon in the tier, poliwrath, as well as the recent drop leafeon, and set up toxic spikes and spikes. toxic spikes and spikes are very good in PU for a multitude of reasons, the most significant of which is that that hazard removers are incredibly hard to fit onto offensive teams, with the only viable offensive one being swanna, and defensive hazard removers are easy to pressure and take advantage of. For these reasons, spikes and especially toxic spikes are very good and very centralizing in PU, and garbodor is just about the perfect setter of them. Its very solid base 75 speed lets it run a great lead set that can easily get up multiple layers of spikes in just about every game and "block" defog and rapid spin with explosion, and it hits quite hard with STAB gunk shot. Garbodor can also run a fantastic bulky spikes set that can set up multiples layers of spikes and toxic spikes multiple times per game. What makes it so good is the sheer amount of top threats that are more or less complete bait for garbodor. Garbodor can set up on all of Poliwrath, Throh, Sneasel, Leafeon, Scyther, Lickilicky, Scarf Haunter locked into Sludge Bomb, Roselia, and Tangela, and that's just the S, A+, and A ranks. Garbodor is simply ridiculously good at its job, and more than deserves to be suspected in the eyes of me and many other players.
also <3 leafeon, it might not be as godly as it was before since stuff like garbodor, ninetales, and avalugg is much more popular than when it was here before but it's still going to be so good n_n
I haven't used the two megas much at all, so I won't talk about them much, but I have plenty of experience with Garbodor, so I'll talk about that and maybe post about the other two later.
Garbodor is a very centralizing force in PU. Any team that does not have either a grounded poison type or a defogger is immediately weak to it, since it can come in on half the best mons in the tier with ease, including the most common pokemon in the tier, poliwrath, as well as the recent drop leafeon, and set up toxic spikes and spikes. toxic spikes and spikes are very good in PU for a multitude of reasons, the most significant of which is that that hazard removers are incredibly hard to fit onto offensive teams, with the only viable offensive one being swanna, and defensive hazard removers are easy to pressure and take advantage of. For these reasons, spikes and especially toxic spikes are very good and very centralizing in PU, and garbodor is just about the perfect setter of them. Its very solid base 75 speed lets it run a great lead set that can easily get up multiple layers of spikes in just about every game and "block" defog and rapid spin with explosion, and it hits quite hard with STAB gunk shot. Garbodor can also run a fantastic bulky spikes set that can set up multiples layers of spikes and toxic spikes multiple times per game. What makes it so good is the sheer amount of top threats that are more or less complete bait for garbodor. Garbodor can set up on all of Poliwrath, Throh, Sneasel, Leafeon, Scyther, Lickilicky, Scarf Haunter locked into Sludge Bomb, Roselia, and Tangela, and that's just the S, A+, and A ranks. Garbodor is simply ridiculously good at its job, and more than deserves to be suspected in the eyes of me and many other players.
also <3 leafeon, it might not be as godly as it was before since stuff like garbodor, ninetales, and avalugg is much more popular than when it was here before but it's still going to be so good n_n
I'm going to talk about Leafeon since it's one of my favourite Pokemon. I used it a lot before Leafeon left to NU in the initial tier shift a whiel ago, and I'm really excited that it's back, since it's a fantastic Pokemon in PU. In the last tier shift, PU lost most of its Grass-types, a type that dominated the tier, and we can see that in the months since then, Water-types have really been taking over, with Poliwrath being the best Pokemon in the tier and other Water-types like Simipour being commonplace. Leafeon gives another check to physical (the most common) Poliwrath sets, due to its Grass-typing and underrated 63/130 physical bulk, allowing it to tank the Circle Throws it may switch in on. Its main set should be the standard Swords Dance set returning from previous PU.
Leafeon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Iron Tail / Baton Pass / Substitute
Swords Dance Leafeon is a fearsome late-game sweeper with its good Attack and Speed stats, and its ability to find setup opportunities with its natural physical bulk. Leaf Blade is the STAB move, and Knock Off is a great boon to Leafeon as it gives it reasonable coverage to hit Fire and Bug-types at +2 (the most relevant Grass-type resists), as well as the Pokemon that walled BW NU's Leaf Blade + Return (like Misdreavus). Iron Tail is an interesting choice to OHKO Avalugg and Togetic at +2 after SR; typical checks to physical Pokemon. Baton Pass is used with Leftovers to pass SD boosts to things that take advantage of switch-ins, while Substitute makes sense as SubSD is a known strategy. Some other options in the last slot including Watmel Berry + Natural Gift to smack Tangela and Roselia; Knock Off + X-Scissor does the same to the former. Synthesis allows Leafeon to continually pass SDs if that's its role, Wish is also an interesting choice because Leafeon gets free wishes when it comes in on Poliwrath. It's much stronger than Serperior giving it a valuable niche over it in the role of an SD sweeper. Of course, SD Leafeon could also be used on Sun teams like it did in early PU, thanks to Chlorophyll letting it outspeed everything. Garbodor is a decent check, which is kinda annoying, but the thing is broken so it's not like it's going to be here for long.
Leafeon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Iron Tail / Baton Pass / Substitute
Swords Dance Leafeon is a fearsome late-game sweeper with its good Attack and Speed stats, and its ability to find setup opportunities with its natural physical bulk. Leaf Blade is the STAB move, and Knock Off is a great boon to Leafeon as it gives it reasonable coverage to hit Fire and Bug-types at +2 (the most relevant Grass-type resists), as well as the Pokemon that walled BW NU's Leaf Blade + Return (like Misdreavus). Iron Tail is an interesting choice to OHKO Avalugg and Togetic at +2 after SR; typical checks to physical Pokemon. Baton Pass is used with Leftovers to pass SD boosts to things that take advantage of switch-ins, while Substitute makes sense as SubSD is a known strategy. Some other options in the last slot including Watmel Berry + Natural Gift to smack Tangela and Roselia; Knock Off + X-Scissor does the same to the former. Synthesis allows Leafeon to continually pass SDs if that's its role, Wish is also an interesting choice because Leafeon gets free wishes when it comes in on Poliwrath. It's much stronger than Serperior giving it a valuable niche over it in the role of an SD sweeper. Of course, SD Leafeon could also be used on Sun teams like it did in early PU, thanks to Chlorophyll letting it outspeed everything. Garbodor is a decent check, which is kinda annoying, but the thing is broken so it's not like it's going to be here for long.
I've never used Garbodor myself - I think when I first played in the tier a couple of weeks ago I saw low-ladder players, hearing how great it was, shoving it onto their team but then using it like idiots (eg keeping bulky Garb in on Pelipper, Avalugg etc, that can just sit there whittling it down and removing its hazards) and therefore I myself believed it to be overrated.
How a lower ladder player poorly uses a pokemon has no affect at all on its brokeness or effectiveness. That is such an ignorant baseless statement if a few bad lower ladder games are your only argument. the problem with garbodor is it's bulk, consistency, great abilities, and good movepool allow it to do good damage and easily set up multiple layers of hazards every game (possibly multiple times in a game) making it far to easy to apply the pressure of spikes and toxic spikes.
It isn't overrated.
Garbodor has access to Thunderbolt which is rare but still an option.
36 SpA Garbodor Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 244-288 (75.5 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also, everytime Avalugg tries to go for Rapid Spin it is worn down due to Rocky Helmet damage to the point where it has to Recover and if it does go for Earthquake, nothing is stopping Garbodor from switching out and bringing in a Pokemon immune to Ground-type attacks.
Sigh, please read my posts. What I meant (and, moreover, what I actually said) was that I saw other players using the thing really badly and hence didn't get why everyone was so afraid of it. I said "believed" - past tense. I also explained that the reason I had not found it troublesome is because I have not reached high enough on the ladder to the point where it is being used by really skilful people. Nowhere did I say that Garbodor was not actually broken - who am I going to believe here, the people who run the tier or the guys crawling around at its basement? Obviously Garbodor is a huge threat which is centralising to the metagame, very reminiscent of Gen V NU Scolipede (which was probably even worse but stayed around forever).
But please don't crap on my opinions without even reading them just because you haven't seen the name in the PU forums before.
But please don't crap on my opinions without even reading them just because you haven't seen the name in the PU forums before.
When you offer nothing but what you said to the post, like you have in this second one, to a new opinion on garbodor I am inclined to think that is how you still feel about garbodor. I'm sorry for "crapping on your opinion", but with the post you made I wanted to state my opinion and show that garbodor is not in fact overrated. Your use of past tense once with nothing else added in is why i responded like that
I think that (T)Spikes need to be suspected more than Garbodor, they are the main problem, in a tier with few good defogers and only one "decent" spinner, any decent mon than can drop in the future with one of this moves can end being deadly, if we ban Garbodor, then people can move to Roselia, who can set up common mons like Poli, Serp, Tangela, etc., and also put asleep any Spinner/Defogger.
So are you saying other users of Toxic Spikes are broken? That thing like Nidorino using them are broken? I don't really think that banning a hazard is the route to go, this seems very similar to asking to ban Stealth Rock lol.
I really disagree with this for a few reasons. The main reasons that Garbodor is broken but Roselia isn't are that Roselia doesn't set up Toxic Spikes on nearly as many threats as Garbodor, and that Roselia only really fits on stall and balance, while Garbodor can function very effectively on all types of teams. Unlike Garbodor, Roselia can't do much to pressure defoggers and avalugg other than put them to sleep, which makes it much easier to remove Roselia's hazards, along with its lack of offensive presence in general. Roselia also isn't nearly as versatile as Garbodor, as it can only run defensive sets effectively. Where Garbodor shines the most is arguably on offensive teams, a place where Roselia simply can't perform well. I don't think anyone thinks hazard stall is broken either.
Regardless, even if Roselia was broken, that wouldn't mean that we would have to ban Toxic Spikes, as we could have just banned both Garbodor and Roselia. Move bans in general are really tough to justify, especially when the move is only broken on one Pokemon (or two, even if you count Roselia).
Anyway, Garbodor is pretty ridiculous, and I have yet to see any well rounded arguments for keeping it around. Unless anyone has any major arguments against suspecting it, I think it would be best to suspect Garbodor sometime in the very near future, as the sooner we can get this garbage out of the tier, the better.
- Status