Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Metagame Discussion

[Haruno]

Ditto sucks IMO. Can't switch into anything and it's useless against stall. Not a reliable check to Mega Rayquaza since you're forced to lock yourself into Extremespeed and forced to use EQ/PB against PGroudon which the user could predict and go to something immune to it or if you try to predict them to switch you risk getting your team swept. It's good in low ladder but against good players, not at all.

Lol Wut

 

[Lemonade]

Uh you're not supposed to switch Ditto in to things, also the mere presence of it deters opponents from setting up, most sweepers are managable at +0. If the opponent has to switch out their boosted Pdon or something you've stopped their sweep.

It has a bit of utility vs stall, mostly copying Defog or clerics, and maybe also applying some hazards of your own. That said, it def is less effective.

 

[Conflict]

Dittos extremely good because you can for example copy unboosted opposing MRay weaken the 1-2 checks of your own MRay just by spamming Dragon Ascent and then setup and sweep with your own MRay. Due to many teams abusing multiple setup sweepers Ditto has a multitude of Mons to abuse and forces your opponent just by being present sometimes to not setup which in turn could grant you an advantage.

Ive seen a few people bringing up stuff like Rhyperior or Mega-Aggron as checks/counters to MRay but you probably found out very soon that Ice Punch is a weak piece of shit that doesnt even ohko MRay back. Just run Avalanche over Ice Punch - youre going second with such slow mofuckers anyways so who cares and you get a nice 120 BP move to ohko MRay with.

Some calcs:
Aggron:
0 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 252-298 (71.7 - 84.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
56 Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 264-312 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 332-392 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
---
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 216+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 232-275 (68.2 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 285-335 (82.8 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

best spread is probably: 236HP/56Atk/216Def; Relaxed - Aggron can also use Metal Burst.

Rhyperior:
56 Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 264-312 (75.2 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 332-392 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
---
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 216+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 365-431 (84.8 - 100.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Shuca Berry Solid Rock Rhyperior: 216-255 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

best spread most likely max atk max hp + shuca berry.

Both are rather gimmicky but they can "theoretically" work. Aggrons shit though dont use him. Rhyperior is decent and checks Ho-Oh, EKiller, Primal-Groudon (2hkoes PDon, PDon 'only' 3hkoes unboosted) and can set SR. A possible set would be:

Rhyperior @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Avalanche/Counter
- Earthquake/Counter
- Rock Blast/Dragon Tail/Toxic

Regirock is another possible candidate but hes ass since he doesnt have Stab-EQ so hed have to rely on Counter.... Aeros ass too since he cant even ohko with max atk Tough Claws Ice Fang after SR.... BS.

I guess right now the best Arceus-formes are Normal (Ekiller), Fairy (can ohko MRay), Rock (atleast you resist DA and can outspeed and WoW SD-variants), Steel (see: Rock) and Ghost (Shadow Force duh!). Maybe even Giratina is viable considering not many MRay's run a Dragon Move - something like DTail/EQ with Rest+Sleeptalk for regular Giratina and maybe even Gira-O (though id run DTail/Dclaw/Draco, EQ, Sneak, Defog/filler on Gira-O).

Just some thoughts. :O

Ps: CB-MRay with SR is pretty neat as is CB-NormalCeus. :O

 

[Gloating]

Uh you're not supposed to switch Ditto in to things, also the mere presence of it deters opponents from setting up, most sweepers are managable at +0. If the opponent has to switch out their boosted Pdon or something you've stopped their sweep.

It has a bit of utility vs stall, mostly copying Defog or clerics, and maybe also applying some hazards of your own. That said, it def is less effective.

Of course you're not supposed to.. but I'm saying that's already one member of the team that can't really switch into anything. Idk I just feel it's too gimmicky of a Pokemon.

lololol
No but seriously, lololol.
It doesn't help that your profile picture is a mega Rayquaza.

Idk what a profile picture has to do with anything but ok lol.

From my experience using both stall teams and offense, Mega Rayquaza isn't broken to the point where it needs to be kicked off of Ubers. It still has 317 speed before Mega evolving so it's not like it's impossible to pressure it with something faster. LO is absolutely needed if it wants to stand a chance against stall teams but even then Lugia seems to handle it just fine. Mega Rayquaza also hates status which are running around like crazy. I know Mega Rayquaza has to do with this but all the over preparing for it really makes it's life harder. Dragon Ascent defense drops suck for it too because after those drops it's easier to pick off or do a lot of damage back even with neutral attacks. Right now I just feel the metagame is pretty prepared for it. Honestly it wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for Healing Wish being so amazing support for it. It's my only issue about it. I don't even want to think about how this would do with 2 Healing Wish users as back up.

 

[Wargreymon]

I don't know what kind of mega Ray's you're facing or what kind of stall teams you're using, but Lugia doesn't handle it "just fine". Quite the opposite actually. Max defence Lugia takes over 50% from dragon ascent at +2 and is OHKO'd if multi scale isn't intact. If rocks are up or if it has any prior damage at all Lugia might as well be death fodder. It's like relying on skarm's sturdy to beat a boosted Charizard X. Granted Lugia can do more than phase it, but it's still the same idea in terms of reliability, i.e not really reliable at all.
Life orb is going to be the preferred item on pretty much every set, so you can't really say "LO is absolutely needed if it wants to stand a chance against stall" as if it wants to run something else. Stall already has a really tough time in ubers due to the hyper offensive nature of the tier, but now with mega Ray and even Pdon to an extent it's going to suffer even more.

Dragon ascent drops aren't bad either. Of course it would be preferable to have no drawbacks, but Mega Ray has a fantastic speed tier and doesn't have to worry about being out-sped most of the time so it can just fire off another nuke and demolish whatever comes in provided it's not something like Arceus that has powerful priority. It's akin to a scarfed heracross sweeping with CC, it's defences can drop to the point of being paper thin but it doesn't matter because it very rarely has to worry about being out-sped. Worst comes to worst you play it like Victini and switch out after something is nuked. It's really not a drawback at all when you consider its speed tier.

 

[shrang]

Ditto sucks IMO. Can't switch into anything and it's useless against stall. Not a reliable check to Mega Rayquaza since you're forced to lock yourself into Extremespeed and forced to use EQ/PB against PGroudon which the user could predict and go to something immune to it or if you try to predict them to switch you risk getting your team swept. It's good in low ladder but against good players, not at all.

Just a small thing... but what stall? People are still on the fence whether the playstyle would be viable or not. I mean yes, we've found a few good cores and a couple of prototype teams, but offense is still much, much more prevalent than stall so I can't see why Ditto being useless against stall is really that bad of a thing... for now.

I don't know what kind of mega Ray's you're facing or what kind of stall teams you're using, but Lugia doesn't handle it "just fine". Quite the opposite actually. Max defence Lugia takes over 50% from dragon ascent at +2 and is OHKO'd if multi scale isn't intact. If rocks are up or if it has any prior damage at all Lugia might as well be death fodder. It's like relying on skarm's sturdy to beat a boosted Charizard X. Granted Lugia can do more than phase it, but it's still the same idea in terms of reliability, i.e not really reliable at all. Life orb is going to be the preferred item on every set, so you can't really say "it absolutely needs it to deal with stall" as if it wants to run something else

Seeing as people devote at least 2 slots on the team to preserving Multiscale (Magic Bounce + Defog) at the moment, I think for Lugia, you can kind of assume that Multiscale will be intact for the time being. It's kind of like calculating damage for Ho-oh and finding out that everything OHKOs it after Stealth Rock. Well the whole point of those teams are to make sure SR is not on the field so Lugia can have an intact Multiscale. That said, whether these measures will actually reliably keep rocks off the field is a completely different question which we'll judge through empirical evidence (ie playtesting).

 

[Gloating]

Just a small thing... but what stall? People are still on the fence whether the playstyle would be viable or not. I mean yes, we've found a few good cores and a couple of prototype teams, but offense is still much, much more prevalent than stall so I can't see why Ditto being useless against stall is really that bad of a thing... for now.

Lately I've been seeing them more for SOME reason.

 

[Elegy96]

Spaceship (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
- Trick

this lil guy is so good. Trick the scarf onto a Lugia or something to get the perfect U-Turn opportunity for whatever your opponent will send in next, or keep the scarf and use it as a surprisingly strong revenge killer.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 157-186 (46 - 54.5%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

Outspeeds SD variants with scarf, this is the best they can do

252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 178-211 (50.5 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Far from perfect but really really useful. In endgames this guy's been winning me battles

 

[EmblemLord]

I've been using that Jirachi build too (with a different EV spread), as suggested by WreckDra. I'm really liking the synergy it has with Mega-Ray.

 

[Lolme]

Switched Ray atk to 180 and V-create to a 120 base flying attack:

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 116-136 (34.3 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 231-273 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong through Reflect: 116-136 (34.3 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So you may either set up reflect, gyro ball or explode...which is better than nothing...

 

[totoTavros]

Switched Ray atk to 180 and V-create to a 120 base flying attack:

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 116-136 (34.3 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 231-273 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong through Reflect: 116-136 (34.3 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So you may either set up reflect, gyro ball or explode...which is better than nothing...

Does it not get Ice Beam?

 

[Lolme]

Does it not get Ice Beam?

Not according to Bulbapedia, it's movepool is not as colorful as you would expect on a psychic type.

 

[accidental_racist]

So why is darkrai so common nowadays? especially sash leads, i don't remember seeing many of them last gen.

 

[shrang]

I think because Lugia is relatively common as a check to many things (as well as Gira-O for Primal Groudon), which Darkrai beats pretty handily. As for Sash leads, well they're really mediocre and is always something lower ladder enjoys using for some reason, although I do think that Sash mons in general have some utility on offense teams these days just to clutch something (provided you can keep SR off). In Darkrai's case, clutch sleep is useful, I suppose.

 

[Lolme]

as well as Gira-O for Primal Groudon

Hey there!

I was wondering if you could explain how does Gira-O checks Groudon. I'm new to the meta and so far every P Groudon I've seen has a dragon claw and either bulk investment or RP, what am I missing?

 

[Halcyon.]

Hey there!

I was wondering if you could explain how does Gira-O checks Groudon. I'm new to the meta and so far every P Groudon I've seen has a dragon claw and either bulk investment or RP, what am I missing?

Giratina-O can switch in on Precipice Blades/EQ, Fire moves, or a setup move and retaliate with Draco Meteor, Earthquake, or phaze it out with Dragon Tail. Dragon Claw from Adamant max attack Groudon only has a 14% chance to 2HKO it, so it's a somewhat safe switch. Draco does upwards of 62% to offensive PDon, so it can hit it pretty hard back, too.

 

[alwayswimmin]

I think because Lugia is relatively common as a check to many things (as well as Gira-O for Primal Groudon), which Darkrai beats pretty handily. As for Sash leads, well they're really mediocre and is always something lower ladder enjoys using for some reason, although I do think that Sash mons in general have some utility on offense teams these days just to clutch something (provided you can keep SR off). In Darkrai's case, clutch sleep is useful, I suppose.

Seconding this. I'm using the Lugia-PDon-MSableye core you proposed for stall in addition to Sylveon for Wish and Heal Bell support and it's immensely pressured by Darkrai. Sableye does not take Dark Pulse well at all. I've tried Rest-Talk Xerneas instead, which does completely neuter Darkrai, but overall I've found Wish support more useful.

 

[Fireburn]

So as should be apparent by now, Mega Rayquaza has been banned. This oughta change things up a lot. Discuss!

 

[SuperWumbology]

Obv a lot of the megas are now very usable (i.e. Mence, Diancie, Metagross, etc.), so a lot of teams that were previously suppressed by Mega Ray now have a lot more flexibility in their builds (Double Dragon Ray+Mence core and Diancie+Gira-O support core ftw). PDon really doesn't absolutely have to run DClaw anymore since its only main target I can think of rn is Gira-O, and since Ho-Oh balance seems like it'll make a resurgence due to Soul Dew Latis being allowed again, Stone Edge might be the preferred move again over DClaw.

POgre got a lot better as well, since now it isnt shat on repeatedly by Mega Ray and the variety of teams it does well against (balance, bulky offense) are coming back into the meta, it can just bork them. Dialga gets lol'ed on by CM sets now, in addition to Blissey getting wrekt after a boost or 2, so the real good checks to Ogre as a whole have diminished (mainly to Palkia, which is ehh, in addition to the Soul Dew Latis). Also PDon does not like taking a +1 Ice Beam, like at all.

I feel YGod and Darkrai got a whole lot better in the semi-gen shift, as the Latis just became prime targets to KO, in addition to Lugia being a solid check to PDon and therefore get a rise in viability. Yveltal in particular has gotten some cool buffs since Tailwind is amazing and with Lati support being very helpful, it can do a lot more to support its team than before. Physically Defensive sets are also pretty good now since it can actually stomach a hit from MegaMence and with Mega Ray gone, it can actually do its job effectively.

tl;dr
Megas are gud
Primal Kyogre is gud
Ygod is gud

 

[GRB1]

I think the FAQ should be updated to fit the current situation surrounding MRay, for those living under a rock.

 

[sammao]

-Primal Groudon and Kyogre are everywhere, because of this:
1. Trick and knock off are kind of bad now
2. I like Grass Knot on Xerneas because it hits Kyogre SE while also damage Groudon
3. Toxic spikes is slightly better than before since it hits both
4. Ho-oh suffers because it loses to both (well you should have Stone Edge on P Groudon)
5. Lati@s with Draco Meteor and thunder can hurt them both

 

[Blukip]

I have recently been trying to find a counter for geomancy Xerneas. All that I could come up with is deoxy-Attack with poison jab and ExS with life orb bonus damage. When i am done taking out xern then my deoxys is usually vulnerable to other switch ins. does anyone have a better counter to stop Geo-Xerneas?

 

[Halcyon.]

I have recently been trying to find a counter for geomancy Xerneas. All that I could come up with is deoxy-Attack with poison jab and ExS with life orb bonus damage. When i am done taking out xern then my deoxys is usually vulnerable to other switch ins. does anyone have a better counter to stop Geo-Xerneas?

Try Ho-Oh, Klefki, or Primal Groudon. Those are all good Pokemon on offensive teams (which it sounds like yours is) that can help stop Xerneas from sweeping, especially in tandem with Arceus Normal.

 

[Mr.378]

That isn't even a counter though because it cannot switch in. Even then poison jab is a bad move on Deo because Xern and Arc Fairy are the only things it can hit hard while many of it's other moves deal move universal damage.

If you want a decent Xern check try Primal Groudon, Klefki, or something else specially defensive. There are also more specific hard counters like Aegislash that only counters Xern and not much else, but it is a nigh absolute stop to it.

 

[Xoren]

so, with soul dew being released, it looks like we'e got 2 more capable defoggers in latios and latias to go with giratina-O and support Arceus forms. what do you gys think about these two, which both pack reliable recovery (and memento/healing wish). where do you think the soul dew varients will stand as support mons compared to the other defoggers out there?