Gothita (QC: 3/3)

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Overview
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- Premier trapper in the metagame, being capable of tearing down many prominent threats
- Great STAB that can trap ever-present Fighting types
- Wide movepool, allowing Gothita to specialize in killing certain Pokemon
- Weak stats means it needs Knock Off/Voltturn support to be effective
- Frail as balls
- Pursuit weakness makes it death fodder

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Psychic
move 2: Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Trick
ability: Shadow Tag
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 240 SpA / 240 Spe
nature: Modest


Moves
========

- Psychic is Gothita's STAB move and its coverage for 2HKOing Timburr, Mienfoo, Croagunk, Foongus, ect. These may be turned into OHKOs with proper Knock Off support or previous damage.
- Thunderbolt knocks Archen and Fletchling out of the sky, and may take down weakened Vullaby. However, Stealth Rock damage is needed to OHKO the latter two.
- Energy Ball smacks Tirtouga, Drilbur, and Chinchou around.
- Hidden Power Fire breaks down Ferroseed, but needs Knock Off support.
- Trick may be a better option, as Hidden Power will only do 50% to Ferro. It shuts down certain walls that are recovering, and enables PP stalling. Furthermore, Trick may snag an Eviolite from a wall that tries to avoid Knock Off.

Set Details
========

- EVs maximize Gothita's attacking capabilities
- Modest allows Gothita to grab kills on Mienfoo, Timburr, Archen, Chinchou, ect, provided it has Knock Off support. Timid serves no purpose as no important threats are outpaced.
- Choice Scarf makes Gothita faster than every unboosted Pokemon in the metagame.
-Slight chance of being able to PP stall walls locked on non-damaging moves.

Usage Tips
========

- Gothita is very weak, meaning Knock Off and/or Voltturn support may be needed.
- Flexible and well rounded when it comes to what it may trap and kill.
- Gothita isn't really capable of taking a moderately powerful hit. Slow U-Turn users pair well for this reason.

Team Options
========

- As Gothita is very weak offensively, Knock Off support is heavily recommended.

- Volt Switch/ U-turn users are immensely helpful, as chip damage also aids Gothita by putting certain threats into KO range.

- While hazards aren't really necessary, they may be used as a form of chip damage. However, Gothita struggles to abuse hazards to its full extent.

- Many set up sweepers appreciate the assured removal of their checks. Omanyte, Pawniard, Fletchling, and much more become devastating win conditions after Pokemon such as Timburr and Archen are cleared.

- Toxic Spikes loves Scarf Goth, as it reliably traps weakened spinners and defog users, as well as poison types not named Stunky.


Stallbreaker
########
name: Stallbreaker
move 1: Psyshock
move 2: Rest
move 3: Sleep Talk
move 4: Calm Mind
ability: Shadow Tag
item: Eviolite
evs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 76 SpD
nature: Modest


Moves
========

- Psyshock is the sole attack on the set, having a full STAB boost AND being capable of navigating through Calm Mind war
- Calm Mind boosts Gothita's offensive and defensive capabilities, and makes Gothita a special sponge, a wallbreaker, and potentially a win condition.
- Rest and Sleep Talk together give Gothita some longevity so it may set up.

Set Details
========

- EVs make Gothita somewhat bulky when facing weak walls.
- Modest kicks up damage output. Defensive natures do not significantly change calculations.
- Rest is Gothita's only way to heal. It also prevents Gothita from being crippled by status.

Usage Tips
========

- Gothita isn't too bulky, so it may be best to avoid taking Knock Offs from Timburr and Mienfoo, as well as other strong attacks.
- While not nearly as flexible at trapping, Gothita may trap and faint walls easily.
- Eliminating Dark types prior to use is recommended, as they are a massive barrier to sweeps. However, this set doesn't need to sweep, nor should sweeping be its primary focus.
- Makes set up fodder out of Spritzee, Porygon, Foongus, and other common Pokemon found on stall teams.
- Has the potential to be a +6 win condition mid to late game.
- Still struggles against certain walls, including Ferroseed.

Team Options
========

- This Gothita set pairs very well with Pokemon that cannot handle a great deal of walls. Scraggy, Timburr, Corphish, and even niche sweepers such as Vullaby love Gothita.
- Volt Switch/ U-turn users still help out Gothita, scouting any switch to walls Gothita may set up on.
- Toxic Spikes damage will substantially benefit Gothita, allowing it to break down walls at a greater pace. Normally Toxic Spikes struggles in LC due to the prevalence of Poison types. However, Gothita will trap and defeat the most popular Poison types, save Stunky.


Other Options
########

- Gothita's other options, while plentiful, aren't typically effective when it comes to eliminating a broad range of threats. That being said, sets may be tailored to take on particular threats, such as using Taunt to shut down problematic defensive Pokemon.

- Shadow Ball may be used to take down Abra.

- Hidden Power types may be chosen to take down very specific threats, though usually it's only effective as a double weakness.

- A straight attacking Eviolite set is moderately viable, but is almost always outclassed by the Choice Scarf set.
- Bulky Colbur Berry sets may be used as a lure for Pawniard. However, Gothita loses general utility.

- Gothita has utility options such as Heal Bell and Thunder Wave. However, Thunder Wave's passivity (due to Shadow Tag preventing spreading) and the fact that Heal Bell detracts from any pressure Gothita places on your opponent steer most users away from support sets. Gothita does not have the bulk to take advantage of its supportive movepool AND Shadow Tag simultaneously.

Checks & Counters
########

** Revenge Killers**: Counters for Gothita don't really exist as Shadow Tag prevents switches. Instead, it usually falls prey to hard hitting sweepers on the revenge kill. Additionally, Gothita should not come in on Ghost types or other Pokemon with Shadow Tag, as they cannot be trapped.

**Pursuit**: Pursuit users such as Stunky, Houndour, and Pawniard vastly deter the use of Gothita, which cannot gain momentum over said Pokemon with double switches.

**Voltturn**: Certain bulky Volt Switch or U-Turn users may take advantage of the scarf set to gain some momentum back after losing a teammate to Gothita.

**Dark types**: Dark types fully wall Calm Mind Rest sets, being virtually untouchable.

**Set up sweepers**: Many set up sweepers can take advantage of Gothita's weak attacks and set up. Omanyte, Pawniard, and resisting sweepers make easy prey of Gothita.
 
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i think you should add a non-cm evio set. tagging Rowan because iirc he has experience with it. idk if rest cm is worthy of a set, if it does stay i think it should be psychic > psyshock because cm wars are extremely rare, it does beat cm spritzee 1v1 but psychic is better in every other situation. in team options when you mention tspikes note that goth traps and KOs poison types, which is why you would use goth + tspikes. shadow ball and twave can go in OO (unless twave gets a slash on the other evio set once its added) qc 1/3
 
Choice Scarf:
Mention t-spikes here as well because of what Zeril said.

Stallbreaker:
Fix the EVs formatting

Other Options:
The fact that it learns Heal Bell is notable but it generally just doesn't have any space for it.
Expand on being able to tailor the set to trap specific pokemon. Specifically using Hidden Powers to trap pokemon with a 4x weakness like Magnemite or Cottonee.

Checks&Counters:
Shadow Tag isn't a counter to Gothita, so don't list that. Change the item in asterisks to Revenge Killers.
Move the point about not really having counters to the overview.

I haven't used anything besides scarf Gothita and PS has been down for awhile, so I can't really comment on how effective the Stallbreaker set is or how viable a straight attacking eviolite set would be, hopefully the other QC people know more about it than I do and can decide.

This was well done but I think I should hold off on giving it the official QC check until it's decided what to do with the non-scarf sets.
 
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Celestavian

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Mention Ghost-types somewhere in the analysis. Considering that Ghost-types are now immune to Shadow Tag, it is impossible to trap the likes of Gastly, Frillish, and Pumpkaboo, thus making it possible to bring in something like a Pursuit user without losing a Pokemon. Tack on a mention that Wynaut and opposing Gothita are also immune to it, just because someone might find themselves against a scarf Gothita locked into Psychic and try to set up on it.

In the scarf set's set detail section, change "Modest allows Gothita to grab kills on Mienfoo, Timburr, Archen, Chinchou, ect." to "Modest allows Gothita to grab 2HKOes on Mienfoo, Timburr, Archen, Chinchou, etc." From reading it, it sounds like Gothita gets OHKOes on all of those Pokemon when in fact it can't OHKO any of them with anything without SR on the field. Naturally Gothita still weakens Mienfoo and Timburr to the point where they might as well be KOed, but we wouldn't want someone to think that they will pick up a free KO when they instead lose Gothita to a Knock Off or boosted Acrobatics.

QC 2/3
 
i think you should add a non-cm evio set. tagging Rowan because iirc he has experience with it. idk if rest cm is worthy of a set, if it does stay i think it should be psychic > psyshock because cm wars are extremely rare, it does beat cm spritzee 1v1 but psychic is better in every other situation. in team options when you mention tspikes note that goth traps and KOs poison types, which is why you would use goth + tspikes. shadow ball and twave can go in OO (unless twave gets a slash on the other evio set once its added) qc 1/3
TWave isn't that useful as Goth's taking hits for the small comfort of reducing speed. I'll add it with Shadow Ball but it's kinda an iffy case compared to Shadow Ball. I'd also like to hear Rowan's input on an Evio set before I add one
 
btw dont forget to add trick as its now usable, not sure if its worth its own slot on scarf or not, but definitely needs to be slashed in the set imo
 
Wait why is this QC 2/3, Hawkstar's check wasn't implemented at all from what it looks like and much of mine wasn't included. Make all of the changes before changing the title please. #_#

If you didn't implement something for a reason, tell us why
 
Wait why is this QC 2/3, Hawkstar's check wasn't implemented at all from what it looks like and much of mine wasn't included. Make all of the changes before changing the title please. #_#

If you didn't implement something for a reason, tell us why
Because as far as I know Smogon analyses aren't really the place for explaining mechanics, even if people might be dumb enough to try trapping lol. Ghost types aren't exactly appropriate as a check because their spookiness doesn't grant it a place where a general mention of revenging and applying pressure wouldn't suffice.

That being said it was included under "what it can't trap"

Furthermore, Zeriloa's change to Psychic is only significant because Psychic is vastly inferior.
 
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slash hp fire with tbolt don't you dare slash trick on scarf
Hp fire can't even kill ferro rofl. Thunderbolt has way more utility. Trick is way better than HP fire, but there is little reason for goth to sacrifice broad coverage. Trick shuts down lots of walls, but it should not be put above guaranteed kills.
 
Because as far as I know Smogon analyses aren't really the place for explaining mechanics, even if people might be dumb enough to try trapping lol. Ghost types aren't exactly appropriate as a check because their spookiness doesn't grant it a place where a general mention of revenging and applying pressure wouldn't suffice.

That being said it was included under "what it can't trap"

Furthermore, Zeriloa's change to Psychic is only significant because Psychic is vastly inferior.
You still need to implement the things I said in my original post, other than the Heal Bell and the Checks&Counters part. I'd really like to stress the importance of Toxic Spikes mentioned in both Team Options sections because being able to trap poison types is huge for that team archetype. You also still contradict yourself in the Choice Scarf's Set Details. Change "Modest allows Gothita to grab kills on Mienfoo, Timburr, Archen, Chinchou, ect. Timid serves no purpose." to reflect that you're not OHKOing them. Modest just allows Gothita to trap and kill at a higher amount of HP. I agree with Blara. Trick is way too good to be slashed along with something. However, I feel like HP Fire should be slashed with Energy Ball as it is far more expendable and not used as often as TBolt imo.

Why do you think Psychic is vastly inferior? With psychic you're capable of trapping much more without set-up and psyshock is once again only better in Calm Mind wars which are not common in the slightest.

If you're not going to include things I said, respond and tell me why. You never said why you didn't implement T-Spikes in the scarf section, why you didn't fix the EVs formatting, or why you didn't add in being able to use Hidden Powers to trap a specific pokemon.

If you implement this things QC 3/3. If you disagree, we can continue to talk about it but don't start writing it up or ask for the final QC before we have come to a conclusion.

Lastly, don't double post. It's generally against forum etiquette. No reason to not just have it in one post.
 
You still need to implement the things I said in my original post, other than the Heal Bell and the Checks&Counters part. I'd really like to stress the importance of Toxic Spikes mentioned in both Team Options sections because being able to trap poison types is huge for that team archetype. You also still contradict yourself in the Choice Scarf's Set Details. Change "Modest allows Gothita to grab kills on Mienfoo, Timburr, Archen, Chinchou, ect. Timid serves no purpose." to reflect that you're not OHKOing them. Modest just allows Gothita to trap and kill at a higher amount of HP. I agree with Blara. Trick is way too good to be slashed along with something. However, I feel like HP Fire should be slashed with Energy Ball as it is far more expendable and not used as often as TBolt imo.

Why do you think Psychic is vastly inferior? With psychic you're capable of trapping much more without set-up and psyshock is once again only better in Calm Mind wars which are not common in the slightest.

If you're not going to include things I said, respond and tell me why. You never said why you didn't implement T-Spikes in the scarf section, why you didn't fix the EVs formatting, or why you didn't add in being able to use Hidden Powers to trap a specific pokemon.

If you implement this things QC 3/3. If you disagree, we can continue to talk about it but don't start writing it up or ask for the final QC before we have come to a conclusion.

Lastly, don't double post. It's generally against forum etiquette. No reason to not just have it in one post.
Psychic serves absolutely no purpose over Psyshock. The bp difference is negligible and Psyshock allows it to beat one of the most common walls on stall teams. What does Psychic actually beat without investment that Psyshock already doesn't do a hefty amount to? Timburr? At least Psyshock allows you to take Porygon on and KO a lot faster, not to mention not lose to Munchlax.

Hidden Power Fire is a shit move, and no one wants to run it over Energy Ball for too many reasons. Scarf goth is supposed to kill off certain threatening Pokemon for a sweep to go off. Logically, you want to focus on killing these Pokemon as opposed to creating a possible asset. Either I'm keeping Trick slashed, or I'm moving HP to OO, because slashing bad coverage moves over good ones when there's an alternative is just silly (and because HP Fire is a shit filler move anyways).

I don't think you read the part where I did edit the matter of Tspikes. I clarified it even further.

I tend to double post when I feel the subjects of both are starkly different. This eases quoting
 
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Psychic serves absolutely no purpose over Psyshock. The bp difference is negligible and Psyshock allows it to beat one of the most common walls on stall teams. What does Psychic actually beat without investment that Psyshock already doesn't do a hefty amount to? Timburr? At least Psyshock allows you to take Porygon on and KO a lot faster, not to mention not lose to Munchlax.

Hidden Power Fire is a shit move, and no one wants to run it over Energy Ball for too many reasons. Scarf goth is supposed to kill off certain threatening Pokemon for a sweep to go off. Logically, you want to focus on killing these Pokemon as opposed to creating a possible asset. Either I'm keeping Trick slashed, or I'm moving HP to OO, because slashing bad coverage moves over good ones when there's an alternative is just silly (and because HP Fire is a shit filler move anyways).

I don't think you read the part where I did edit the matter of Tspikes. I clarified it even further.

I tend to double post when I feel the subjects of both are starkly different. This eases quoting
Yeah, looking into it further I agree psyshock is better. I couldn't find much besides Trubbish that would be relevant enough to warrant using Psychic.

I'd really like some other QC member's opinions on where HP Fire should go actually.

Team Options
========

As Gothita is very weak offensively, Knock Off support is heavily recommended.

Volt Switch/ U-turn users are immensely helpful, as chip damage also aids Gothita by putting certain threats into KO range.

While hazards aren't really necessary, they may be used as a form of chip damage. However, Gothita struggles to abuse hazards to its full extent.

Many set up sweepers appreciate the assured removal of their checks. Omanyte, Pawniard, Fletchling, and much more become devastating win conditions after Pokemon such as Timburr and Archen are cleared.
I don't see any mention of Toxic Spikes here, I wanted a mention of it in both Team Options sections. Idk if I'm just not seeing the updated version or something but I also don't see the EV formatting being fixed in the Stallbreaker set.
 
gothita's moves are niche, besides psychic and trick nothing is mandatory.

Psychic
Energy Ball
Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Fire
Trick

I personally never use Thunderbolt.
 
gothita's moves are niche, besides psychic and trick nothing is mandatory.

Psychic
Energy Ball
Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Fire
Trick

I personally never use Thunderbolt.
I use it all the time vs Archen and sometimes Fletch/weakened Vulla. Besides, that coverage vs Hp Fire's is way more important. I'm leaning towards ditching Hp fire altogether and sticking it into OO not just as a compromise but because HP fire doesn't even kill Ferro.

@ OP sorry dude, I was talking about the Stallbreaker set. Imo I don't see how Scarfgoth synergizes well with Tspikes though I guess it does frickle frackle Archen and Drillbur over. I'll add it in to Choice Scarf. Sorry fit the misunderstanding.

Yeah completely forgot you mentioned Scarf at the start. Derp
 
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Corporal Levi

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choice scarf: mention that thunderbolt needs sr support to ohko chen/fletch, and mention that trick guarantees the removal of eviolite on certain walls that may otherwise be difficult to koff
team options: get rid of the uncertainty surrounding hazard support, sr support is p great
240+ SpA Gothita Thunderbolt vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
240+ SpA Gothita Thunderbolt vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

stallbreaker:
- Makes set up fodder out of Spritzee, Porygon, Foongus, and other common Pokemon found on stall teams.
- Has the potential to be a +6 win condition mid to late game.
- Still struggles against certain walls, including Ferroseed.
move these three points to usage tips, add descriptions for the rest of its moves however unnecessary it might seem (rest + sleep talk + cm allows goth to keep healthy and set up to +6 against certain walls, then break through them)

QC 3/3, very well done
 

Rowan

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woah, not qc 3/3 until you listen blarajan's slashes, seriously. Trick is necessary, it completely shuts down spritzee, porygon, and many other walls.

Slash HP Fire with Tbolt. It all depends on your team what you want to counter, although hp fire isn't enough to actually KO ferroseed, it's enough to weaken it to the point that Shellder or Omanyte or Tirtouga can actually sweep. As blara said, all gothita's moves are niche, and they depend on your teammates, so it deserves a slash behind tbolt. (smashers don't care about archen or vullaby being removed)

mention somewher that scarf goth can actually switch into abra's psychic and remove abra's sash. This is great for pretty much any sweeper, like ziggy, scraggy, etc,




I like the eviolite set. It can switch into Knock Off from Croagunk and KO it back with psychic, (providing no sucker punch which is very rare). It can also live a knock off from timburr allowing it to 2HKO it with psychic. Taunt allows it to beat foongus 1v1 (usually foongus can take a psychic at full and use spore) it also allows it to taunt ferroseed, then 2hko with hp fire without worrying about being paralysed. All in all, eviolite is really useful. The only things it misses out on are mienfoo, archen, maybe a couple of other faster things, and crippling walls with trick. but it can still cripple and take out wall thanks to taunt

psychic
hp fire
energy ball
taunt
(tbolt is less important here as you're not outspeeding archen so can't trap it that well, it's still okay for vullaby though)
 
woah, not qc 3/3 until you listen blarajan's slashes, seriously. Trick is necessary, it completely shuts down spritzee, porygon, and many other walls.

Slash HP Fire with Tbolt. It all depends on your team what you want to counter, although hp fire isn't enough to actually KO ferroseed, it's enough to weaken it to the point that Shellder or Omanyte or Tirtouga can actually sweep. As blara said, all gothita's moves are niche, and they depend on your teammates, so it deserves a slash behind tbolt. (smashers don't care about archen or vullaby being removed)

mention somewher that scarf goth can actually switch into abra's psychic and remove abra's sash. This is great for pretty much any sweeper, like ziggy, scraggy, etc,




I like the eviolite set. It can switch into Knock Off from Croagunk and KO it back with psychic, (providing no sucker punch which is very rare). It can also live a knock off from timburr allowing it to 2HKO it with psychic. Taunt allows it to beat foongus 1v1 (usually foongus can take a psychic at full and use spore) it also allows it to taunt ferroseed, then 2hko with hp fire without worrying about being paralysed. All in all, eviolite is really useful. The only things it misses out on are mienfoo, archen, maybe a couple of other faster things, and crippling walls with trick. but it can still cripple and take out wall thanks to taunt

psychic
hp fire
energy ball
taunt
(tbolt is less important here as you're not outspeeding archen so can't trap it that well, it's still okay for vullaby though)
I've stated before that there is no way in hell I'm slashing a viable coverage move for hidden power fire. If blara has an issue with trick being slashed, i will happily move hp fire in other options. hp fire to partially cripple ferro makes little sense when you're basically tossing goth away in the matchup. covering fletchling, vullaby and archen is a lot more important than saccing for ferro.

I'll add the evio set, but hp fire is being slashed second to thunderbolt (and that slash makes actual sense)
 
Name:Goth
Item:Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 112 HP / 100 Def / 132 SpA / 164 Spe
Moves:
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
 

The Avalanches

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Name:Goth
Item:Leftovers
Ability: Competitive
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 112 HP / 100 Def / 132 SpA / 164 Spe
Moves:
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
Non-Shadow Tag isn't worth running at all, other Psychic-types outclass it. Leftovers should never be used in Little Cup, Dark Pulse should never be used alongside Shadow Ball, and you are using a sub-standard EV spread and no nature. I appreciate you're trying to contribute, but you've not even given this set a description.
 
This is a pretty important analysis and it'd be cool if we could finish it up.

HP Fire should be slashed with Thunderbolt. Getting Ferroseed weakened or fainted is so beneficial to so many sweepers such as Omanyte, Tirtouga, Bunnelby, Non-Overheat Fletchling, etc. Naturally, Gothita is often used for its ability to trap checks and counters for a sweeper so having this move makes perfect sense. HP Fire can also be useful in other situations such as picking off a weakened Magnemite or Snover, but obviously the main appeal is Ferroseed. Thunderbolt hits a wider variety of targets, but it doesn't really take out checks to common sweepers. The only case where it kinda does this is being able to kill Fletchling, which isn't all that reliable because you'll die after two Stealth Rock switch-ins and there's always that risk of a high roll or crit. On a sidenote, Thunderbolt isn't even 2HKOing Vullaby, so it's really not very useful against it.

As far as I know, the whole QC team is agreement that HP Fire should be slashed with Thunderbolt, so unless you have anything new to bring to the argument, please make this change so you may write up the analysis for the fourth check.
 

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This analysis has been reassigned (and completed).
 
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