i was assuming max hp/max defense salamence.
a 252+ EQ from salamence only does around 50% to primal don with no hp or defense investment? are you sure you didnt leave out anything when doing the calc?
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Gen 6 Mega Salamence
- Thread starter yohoE
- Start date
a 252+ EQ from salamence only does around 50% to primal don with no hp or defense investment? are you sure you didnt leave out anything when doing the calc?
252+ Atk Primal-Groudon Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252+ Def Mega-Salamence: 184 - 218 (46.7% - 55.3%)
With no Atk investment, this set will only do 38.7% - 45.7% with Earthquake to Primal-Don. That is, it's always 2HKOed after SR but has only a very slim chance of doing so in return to Primal-Don after SR.
The calculations for the earlier EQ was assuming Jolly Nature. With Adamant, it does 50.4% - 59.8%.
42.6% - 50.5% if P-Don is running Max HP instead of Speed.
Defensive MSalamence can avoid 2HKO from 252+ PDon DClaw if no SR but can't do much in return, it really have to put some investment in atk to work...
Been giving M Mence a go and its really good in Ubers. It can use P Don (along with many other physical attackers) as set up bait thanks to intimidate and better physical bulk, something M Ray can never achieve reliably even with delta stream simply cause it has no recovery. I have been using a simple set of DD, roost, return and earthquake and its very capable to taking things out. Earthquake is essential otherwise it gets hard walled and countered by Diagla and Zekrom. I max speed to speed tie with Arceus so that after 1 DD its outruns almost the entire Meta. Roost is also such an important move and one of the big perks it has over M Ray, with it you have staying power and don't get worn down anywhere near as easily as M Ray (who has to use dragon ascent which makes it more fragile).
I am not going to argue that its better than M Ray cause its not, however its much easier to set up with M Mence compared to M Ray and thanks to roost and a better main Stab move that does not leave it vulnerable afterwards so it can support itself during the sweep. Those two big perks along with a better speed tier give me some reason to use Mence over Ray. If it can get 2 DD under its belt for those reasons compared to 1 with Ray then in terms of power you won't notice the difference. At least that's my experience so far with both of them.
Edit. I know getting high on the ladder is not great evidence for proving a Pokemon's viability especially when the ladder is so fresh, but I am in the top 100 (51 currently) of the ladder and have yet to peak. M Mence has been very useful at getting me to that stage because it is such a reliable yet powerful set up sweeper.
I am not going to argue that its better than M Ray cause its not, however its much easier to set up with M Mence compared to M Ray and thanks to roost and a better main Stab move that does not leave it vulnerable afterwards so it can support itself during the sweep. Those two big perks along with a better speed tier give me some reason to use Mence over Ray. If it can get 2 DD under its belt for those reasons compared to 1 with Ray then in terms of power you won't notice the difference. At least that's my experience so far with both of them.
Edit. I know getting high on the ladder is not great evidence for proving a Pokemon's viability especially when the ladder is so fresh, but I am in the top 100 (51 currently) of the ladder and have yet to peak. M Mence has been very useful at getting me to that stage because it is such a reliable yet powerful set up sweeper.
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dont worry mega salamence
ubers has a use for you
In all seriousness though, mega mence still seems really good in ubers, as it runs train on a LOT of things after a DD. It can get this setup opportunity in situations where Mega Rayquaza sometimes cannot, and it doesn't have to worry as much about the random HP ices and ice shards that are a result of its over-centralization in OU.
ubers has a use for you
In all seriousness though, mega mence still seems really good in ubers, as it runs train on a LOT of things after a DD. It can get this setup opportunity in situations where Mega Rayquaza sometimes cannot, and it doesn't have to worry as much about the random HP ices and ice shards that are a result of its over-centralization in OU.
I'm still not sure easier set-up is necessarily a huge advantage since unboosted Mega-Ray hits harder than +1 Mega-Mence, while +1 Mega-Ray is between +2 and +3 Mega-Mence in power level. After a SD, Mega-Ray hits harder than the equivalent of 4 DDs from Mega-Mence. If anything, Mega-Ray gets a lot more reward for the set-up than Mega-Mence and especially in a tier as bulky as Ubers.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 413-487 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+4 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 448-528 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not quite, but I get your point. The problem is that I find my Rayquaza sweep sometimes hindered by the life orb damage plus defense drops from Dragon Ascent leaving me vulnerable to opposing Extremespeeds and Sucker Punches which aren't a rare sight in Ubers. Sure, ESpeed cancels Sucker Punch but then it's just a 50/50 since most things aren't getting OHKO'd by it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 265-313 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 448-528 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not quite, but I get your point. The problem is that I find my Rayquaza sweep sometimes hindered by the life orb damage plus defense drops from Dragon Ascent leaving me vulnerable to opposing Extremespeeds and Sucker Punches which aren't a rare sight in Ubers. Sure, ESpeed cancels Sucker Punch but then it's just a 50/50 since most things aren't getting OHKO'd by it.
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 265-313 (75.4 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I have been playing with a team running both DD M-Salamence (Frustration, EQ and Fire Blast) and M Rayquaza. While I can only Mega one of them at any battle, both are great in their base forms and complement each other nicely in bringing down and controlling threats, considering Salamence 100 base speed which outspeeds most scarfers at +1 and Rays 150 Atk + E speed.
The trick has been identifying which one might have an easier time sweeping. When the opponent is using Gira-O, E-Killer and/or M-Ray (Yveltal to a lesser extent) M-Salamence overall bulk tends to have an easier time sweeping and taking priority moves while Ray softens the opposing team. Otherwise I tend to abuse intimidate and coverage moves as much as possible to help M-Ray setting up.
Opposing M-Ray is an interesting opportunity for Salamence to set up: you switch in not taking SE damage from Stealth Rocks, intimidate M-Ray and go Mega to take the hit while retaliating with frustration or setting up if you have enough bulk investment or reflect up.
Using M-Salamence on its own over other megas in the tier is not that appealing imo as dragon moves and strong ice beams are everywhere in ubers and M-Mence bulk does not make for the higher atk and strong priority of M-Ray. Also M-Ray ability is a fair enough trade for M-Mence bulk, leaving it outclassed.
The trick has been identifying which one might have an easier time sweeping. When the opponent is using Gira-O, E-Killer and/or M-Ray (Yveltal to a lesser extent) M-Salamence overall bulk tends to have an easier time sweeping and taking priority moves while Ray softens the opposing team. Otherwise I tend to abuse intimidate and coverage moves as much as possible to help M-Ray setting up.
Opposing M-Ray is an interesting opportunity for Salamence to set up: you switch in not taking SE damage from Stealth Rocks, intimidate M-Ray and go Mega to take the hit while retaliating with frustration or setting up if you have enough bulk investment or reflect up.
Using M-Salamence on its own over other megas in the tier is not that appealing imo as dragon moves and strong ice beams are everywhere in ubers and M-Mence bulk does not make for the higher atk and strong priority of M-Ray. Also M-Ray ability is a fair enough trade for M-Mence bulk, leaving it outclassed.
I agree that Mega-Ray's sweep is very vulnerable to priority, especially since many teams have Ekiller and Ditto. I'm not saying that Mega-Mence doesn't have a use in Ubers, but I'm just finding it too weak to break through the walls of Uber. It does nicely against pure offensive teams though, since its physical bulk lets it take priority quite well.
Oh, and my calc was done with Adamant SD Mega-Ray vs Jolly DD Mega-Mence. I know it loses some speed benchmarks, but +2 Espeed basically OHKOs opposing Mega-Ray as well as the Lati twins (the only relevant threats Jolly outspeeds). Mence lacks priority, so I think Jolly is preferred in Ubers. Also, being able to speed tie max speed Support Arceus while unboosted is quite useful.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mega-Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 454-536 (102.2 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only hope for M-Mence in Ubers is M-Rayquaza getting banned from the meta. So I guess it can keep on dreaming.
I've been testing it out just for fun, but its main weakness over M-Ray is that it doesn't hit hard enough after a boost. +1 Earthquake doesn't even OHKO Offensive, non-bulky P-Don which is on practically every team I've seen. In return, it can easily 2HKO you with Dragon Claw or OHKO after SR with Stone Edge. Even if you live, it's weakened enough to die to priority from Ekiller as Mega-Mence lacks priority of its own. Any bulky Arceus form checks it too, with the obvious exception of those weak to Flying. Arceus-Fairy/Rock can easily live +1 Return/Earthquake and OHKO with Judgment.
Hmm by itself, all Mence has going for it is slightly more physical bulk and Roost, and tbh there's not enough to set up on to make bulky DD worth it (I mean, Delta Stream almost makes Mega Ray bulkier, and Healing Wish can act as your Roost). Also p sure Aerialate Hyper Voice isn't stronger compared to just spamming DA with MRay.
Therefore, the only way I could see using Mega Mence is on birdspam with DA normal Ray, since it's still really strong. But idk if that's worth since Mega Ray doesn't really have issues breaking stuff, you're stacking weaknesses, and you would probably need Defog since two SR weak mons. Idk though, I haven't played with MMence much
Therefore, the only way I could see using Mega Mence is on birdspam with DA normal Ray, since it's still really strong. But idk if that's worth since Mega Ray doesn't really have issues breaking stuff, you're stacking weaknesses, and you would probably need Defog since two SR weak mons. Idk though, I haven't played with MMence much
I agree. It can't setup nearly as easily compared to OU even with HP investment, and it takes too many turns to get the same kind of power Mega-Ray would have with just one turn of setup or even unboosted.
I think now Mega Mence is probobly the best choice for a Mega not because I consider it better than things like Mega Gengar but rather because of low risk = high reward.
MY BABY! ;u;
How does everyone here feel about trying the famous Salamence + Rayquaza combo? Mega Mence will fuck things up with his highly strong attacks while Rayquaza cleans the mess with Espeed? You'll definitely need a way to deal with Ice, however, something like SpDef Arceus Water or Kyogre.
How does everyone here feel about trying the famous Salamence + Rayquaza combo? Mega Mence will fuck things up with his highly strong attacks while Rayquaza cleans the mess with Espeed? You'll definitely need a way to deal with Ice, however, something like SpDef Arceus Water or Kyogre.
I feel like it's the other way round
Rayquaza, with 150 base attack and special attack and access to a hold item, will be utilized to batter down walls.
Salamence, with superior Speed, high bulk and better chances to setup, and a more reliable sweeping move in Return, will be used to clean up teams.
Rayquaza, with 150 base attack and special attack and access to a hold item, will be utilized to batter down walls.
Salamence, with superior Speed, high bulk and better chances to setup, and a more reliable sweeping move in Return, will be used to clean up teams.
So now that Ubers is officially a tier, is it going to be usage-affected like the tiers below it? If so, we could get some really interesting Pokémon in OU (though I think most will instantly be banned again, such as Arceus types and Aegislash/Mawile). Anyway, glad to see Mega Rayquaza is gone; despite being my personal all-time favorite, it's extremely powerful, way too much for Ubers to handle.
Now back to worshipping Primal Groudon as the supreme ruler of Ubers, I guess.
Now back to worshipping Primal Groudon as the supreme ruler of Ubers, I guess.
Thanks for the heads-up.
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Ubers usage will not affect what is OU
Would it be better to run Adamant or Jolly in Ubers? I feel as if Adamant will be the better decision to be able to deliver much more damage to the sturdier Pokemon here like Lugia, Giratina-O, defensive Arceus, ect, but I'm not sure if there's anything important out there that outspeeds Mega Mence at +1 neutral nature.
I'm thinking adamant, unless you want to out speed arceus forms like e killer, not that u can do much with brick break.
The only important benchmark Adamant misses out on is outspeeding Lati@s and other base 110s like Mega-Diancie/Metagross while unboosted. With the exception of Mega-Metagross, all of these are threats you would otherwise KO before they'd be able to OHKO back. Running Jolly makes this 1v1 in your favor, as the opponent has to decide whether to risk attacking and being outsped (thinking it's Adamant) or switch-out and give you potentially a free turn of setup. Prior to Mega, you would also be outsped by +speed nature base 90-100s like Rayquaza and Palkia though I'm unsure how prevalent they are in the current metagame.
Jolly being able to speed tie max speed Support Arceus is nice too, albeit a situation you probably don't want to risk. Assuming you are somehow forced into the situation, it does allow you to do stuff like Sub at the attempted burn. Arceus-Fairy and Rock force you out regardless though.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega-Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 306-361 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega-Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 280-330 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega-Salamence Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 116-137 (27.9 - 33%) -- 88.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega-Salamence Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 105-125 (25.3 - 30.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega-Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 331-391 (74.5 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega-Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 301-355 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Base on these calcs, I would probably run Jolly just for the advantages listed above. Adamant does have slightly more power, but it doesn't achieve any significant KOs from what I can tell.
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I've swapped my Adamant Mence for a Jolly one, and let me tell you, it has helped me out infinitely more than the Adamant variant has. It hits stupidly hard anyway with base 145 Attack and Aerilate that the small Adamant boost isn't even missed, and being able to outpace the Latis and speed tie with any Arceus form (and mostly outpace E-killers before they E-Speed since they mostly run Adamant from what I can tell) are musts for my favorite Dragon. While I was running Adamant, it was a complete momentum-killer when any of the Latis were brought in, so having that base 120 speed maxed out really helps.
try running some calcs with double edge > return. the power spike when using adamant > jolly is far more apparent then; +1 adamant de KOs phydef yveltal and 252 HP arceus after rocks while jolly mence has a far slimmer chance of doing so. you also get a 25% shot to KO lugia. if you opt to use return then jolly is indeed the way to go.