Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

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Punchshroom

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Zangoose is fast though
Zangoose is actually what I call 'averagely speedy', sitting in the same tier as Kangaskhan. It easily outpaces walls and even other wallbreakers, but is slower than many other offensive Pokemon.

Dragalge doesn't get really any free switch ins against offense.
Since Dragalges are becoming more offensively inclined (mainly for trying to kill each other :/), I can agree that it doesn't get nearly as much 'free switch-ins' into offense than it would like. However, its bulk and numerous resistances mean it can usually check a good variety of offensive sweepers, which is way more than can be said for pretty much every other wallbreaker in the tier.

And there on mons on stall that wall it...and if you don't want to give it free switch ins...PREDICT IT TO COME IN..and double switch. OR. Build your team such that. It doesn't constantly get to come in for free.
The amount of Pokemon on stall that would safely respond to Dragalge are pretty limited and tend to be easily put at a disadvantage, particularly Stealth Rock and/or Dragalge's free moveslot, much less being taken advantage of by Dragalge's teammates. Also, if your response to a Dragalge switch-in is merely to double switch, you're partly agreeing with my sentiment that most of Dragalge's victims can do very little / nothing to it in return even on the switch; again, unlike many other wallbreakers in the tier. This also means that the Dragalge user, knowing you'd flee from Dragalge's presence, can make use of that and predict you in return; prediction can work both ways and isn't a strong argument.
 
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Zangoose is fast though...and it doesn't get really any free switch ins against offense. And there on mons on stall that wall it...and if you don't want to give it free switch ins...PREDICT IT TO COME IN..and double switch. OR. Build your team such that. It doesn't constantly get to come in for free.
My point was that its not frail. Basing the argument off predictions and double switches just shows how much of a threat dragalge is. Building around not letting it in for free is more than likely gonna leave you extremely open to slurpuff unless you use metang and if everyone runs metang, it would lead to an unhealthy, over centralised meta.
 

Ares

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So seeing as the suspects are coming to a close I'm just want to comment on a really common core that was made to shine because of them and would of probably been mediocre in XY. That core is Weezing and Metang, Weezing has been really popular due to the ridiculous amount of offensive power houses that it can check while Metang can come in and take next to nothing from Dragalge which gets a free switch into Weezing. Metang also has the ability to set rocks and have priority for Slurpuff if Weezing can't manage to quite OHKO it. Its interesting how a meta will adapt to new threats and how previously "bad / mediocre" pokemon suddenly shine, also both of these Pokemon have been mentioned separately ik but not together.

(no conquest art for this :<)
Weezing @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
- Pain Split


Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
 

CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
I've been running this with other defensive Pokemon that can take some of the pressure off Metang, wish passers like Audino and Pokemon that take on similar threats like Weezing have made good partners so far especially since this thing lacks reliable recovery.
It is a very good core, that I'm sure a lot of people have seen used on ladder. Kiyo even made mention of the two of them together 4 days ago here, proving once again Kiyo is one of the greatest innovators NU has ever seen :]

Really though, regardless of who's core it is, it's really effective at checking top threats Dragalge, M-Lopunny, M-Scep, Slurpuff, and even M-Altaria. If you haven't given it a chance yet, go out and do so before all these mons [might] leave the tier. Bonus points if you throw on Wish support to keep the two healthy.
 
Here is my argument in favor of a Dragalge ban to RU:

1. Over-centralization. Before Dragalage got Adaptability, no one used Metang. The Weezing-Metang core didn't resist. The whole reason for the rise in Metang's popularity is that people are using it to merely check Dragalge. And even then it's not an answer to Dragalge.

2. No counters. There is no pokemon that can safely switch into Dragalge. It's simply too strong. People have been naming their Dragalges "Fodder Something?" because they know how broken the pokemon they're using is. Not even Metang is a sufficient check to Dragalge, as Dragalge still gets access to Scald, Hydro Pump, and Focus Blast, all of what it does not appreciate.

Objection: Dragalge is simply too slow and is easily revenge killed. It can't switch into many pokemon back.

Rebuttal: Yes, it is slow, but its considerable bulk and great defensive typing, helping it take super-effective moves from all kinds of mons, especially defensive ones that are supposed to "check" it. These pokemon, especially the defensive "checks" can't fight back. It can't be poisoned, and it can't be stalled out. This is why although it isn't fast, I'd consider Dragalge to be a revenge killer in-it-of-itself.
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
Here is my argument in favor of a Dragalge ban to RU:

1. Over-centralization. Before Dragalage got Adaptability, no one used Metang. The Weezing-Metang core didn't resist. The whole reason for the rise in Metang's popularity is that people are using it to merely check Dragalge. And even then it's not an answer to Dragalge.

2. No counters. There is no pokemon that can safely switch into Dragalge. It's simply too strong. People have been naming their Dragalges "Fodder Something?" because they know how broken the pokemon they're using is. Not even Metang is a sufficient check to Dragalge, as Dragalge still gets access to Scald, Hydro Pump, and Focus Blast, all of what it does not appreciate.

Objection: Dragalge is simply too slow and is easily revenge killed. It can't switch into many pokemon back.

Rebuttal: Yes, it is slow, but its considerable bulk and great defensive typing, helping it take super-effective moves from all kinds of mons, especially defensive ones that are supposed to "check" it. These pokemon, especially the defensive "checks" can't fight back. It can't be poisoned, and it can't be stalled out. This is why although it isn't fast, I'd consider Dragalge to be a revenge killer in-it-of-itself.
scald does 14% to metang
 
Mega Glalie is too strong for NU. As far as I can tell, only Lapras, Avalugg, Walrein, Steelix, Rotom-F, Furfrou and Regirock avoid a 2HKO.

252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 144-171 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 123-145 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's honestly just as bad as Dragalge considering it's not reliant on a Choice item and can actually outspeed things.
 
MrCookiepants: 5893653 said:
Mega Glalie is too strong for NU. As far as I can tell, only Lapras, Avalugg, Walrein, Steelix, Rotom-F, Furfrou and Regirock avoid a 2HKO.

252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 144-171 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 123-145 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's honestly just as bad as Dragalge considering it's not reliant on a Choice item and can actually outspeed things.
Comparing mons just because of their damage output is ridiculous and doesn't give a good base for your argument. If youve read some other post's you'd see that dragalge is so good due to the amount of free switch ins it gets and how easily it can be switched out due to it not being weak to stealth rocks. These are things glalie does not have so it is easily revenged and worn down by stealth rocks if they choose to switch out.
 
(Don't have much experience but I feel like this was a given)
Just looking at Altaria-M we can probably tell that it isn't too healthy for the meta. 110/110 attacking stats and a nice 75/110/105 bulk, man this thing is a monster. The only true flaw is its speed, but even that isn't really a flaw. It could run a physical set, a special set, or a mixed set. You pretty much have to sacrifice a mon to get rid of this thing, that is if your lucky. If you mess up the switch then it will probably be goodnight for a lot of your team. Not only that but it's amazing typing and ability make it even more of an issue. I feel that this thing is like Lucario-M, "What set is it running? Let's sacrifice 3 mons to find out." BAN
 

Kiyo

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Mega Glalie is too strong for NU. As far as I can tell, only Lapras, Avalugg, Walrein, Steelix, Rotom-F, Furfrou and Regirock avoid a 2HKO.
Why does everyone sleep on Lord Prinplup... Seriously though, M-Glalie is insanely powerful. However 328 Speed really isn't all that much to handle right now with how offensive the metagame is, we're prepping for threats that hit 427 atm so I don't really get how speed is relevant. Ice Shard honestly isn't all that strong in comparison to M-Glalie's Glaciate boosted attacks, and it hardly makes up for the speed gap that anything faster trying to check it maintains. The main way I've seen/had success with M-Glalie at the moment is under Sticky Web. There's quite a few offensive playstyles on the ladder that can't exactly fit a defogger or rapid spinner in their lineup. Provided you can set the webs they'll have no way to deal with it. Ice-Ground coverage is actually really good in the tier however and this gives M-Glalie a pretty cool niche as a wallbreaker, but I don't ever see it becoming anything more than that.

Could be cool on some offensive builds to break down physical walls for a partner like Sawk or something, but other than that I think I'd rather just use Sneasel or Piloswine as an offensive Ice-type and save my mega slot unless the momentum and damage output you can gain with explosion is something you desire/need for your team.

tl;dr M-Glalie is good, but comparing it to Dragalge is kinda sketch. Don't think this things gonna be leaving us anytime soon.
 
Mega Glalie is too strong for NU. As far as I can tell, only Lapras, Avalugg, Walrein, Steelix, Rotom-F, Furfrou and Regirock avoid a 2HKO.

252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 144-171 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 123-145 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It's honestly just as bad as Dragalge considering it's not reliant on a Choice item and can actually outspeed things.
I wouldn't compare M-Glalie to Dragalge for a lot reasons: Way faster, not a wall-breaker, Physical instead of Special (although it can run special sets, physical sets are superior currently), poor coverage on Glalie, poor defensive typing, etc.

Viable M-Glalie counters include: Piloswine (Thick Fat allows it to absorb Return/Double Edge and EQ does even less), Avalugg (Avalugg.), Ferroseed (Takes 2 hits, kills w/ Gyro Ball after Iron Barbs damage), Miltank (Thick Fat allows even SpDef Miltank to completely stop M-Glalie), Regirock (Hard body baby knocking any Glalie back), Qwilfish (EQ does ~40%, can Twave and then proceed to Pain Split or try and paraflinch w/ Waterfall), Steelix/M-Steelix (Hardest body baby knocking any Glalie back), Poliwrath (Resists stab, hits for SE damage or can go for Scald), Granbull (preferably RestTalk), Regice (resists stab, fires off Tbolts), Frillish (The lord)

Viable M-Glalie checks include: Feraligatr (resists stab, fires back w/ Waterfall+Aqua Jet), Prinplup (Resists stab and can fire off Scalds), Samurott (Same deal as Feraligatr, Torkoal (takes 38% from EQ, fires back w/ Lava Plume/Yawn), Metang (EQ does 45% to SpDef, 33% to PhyDef, fires back w/ Meteor Mash+BP), Hariyama (vs 0/128 -Return does 32% -Double Edge does 38%, fires back w/ CC or BP if severely weakened (BP does 40%), Rotom-F (resists stab, Can Will-O-Wisp or Volt Switch to wear it down)(Pyroar/Typhlosion can obviously take a Return/Double Edge + Ice Shard combo, but won't like taking EQ, Gurdurr (Mach Punch does 55% and can take two Returns, Mach Punch kills after Rocks+Double Edge recoil as well)

Mons that get usage and can answer M-Glalie (I don't like these but others do ?_?)- Lapras (4x resists stab, hits back w/ Surf), Walrein [?????] (8x resists stab 252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Giga Impact vs. 232 HP / 220+ Def Thick Fat Walrein: 25-30 (5.9 - 7.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever), Furfrou (Double Edge does 30%)

M-Glalie obviously hits like a truck, but is hindered by a few things. The first is the obvious weakness to Stealth Rocks. If Glalie runs Double Edge, it's survivability is hindered. Glalie boasts decent bulk with 80/80/80 defenses, but an Ice typing leaving it with limited switch ins. It requires more support than other sweepers, such as Sawk, due to it's limited coverage and weakness to rocks. If the argument for banning is power, why have we not banned Sawk? He's a little slower than M-Glalie, but has far fewer switch-ins (I'm not saying ban Sawk, just an example). M-Glalie is weak to two (3 if you count Vacuum Wave) forms of priority, Bullet Punch and Mach Punch as well. Glalies coverage is "OK" in terms of hitting things neutrally, but it can't wallbreak through mons that resist it's stab and aren't hit for SE damage by EQ (besides Jynx/Cryogonal who have paper for defense).

M-Glalie also a sort of 4MSS depending on the set it wants to run. If it wants to run an all out attacking set, it's fine with Ice Shard/Return (or Double Edge)/Explosion/EQ; however, it runs into a problem when it wants to include utility moves. M-Glalie has to two great support moves in Taunt and Spikes which allows it to Defog block, hazard stack, or both. Unfortunately, this means it needs to replace 1 or 2 moves in it's arsenal. Explosion seems gimmicky, but allows it to get off a last ditch effort vs walls to weaken them for it's team. Return is it's main stab (or Double Edge) and EQ allows it to hit Steel/Fire Types whilst Ice Shard is the much needed priority move that allows it to hit faster mons such as Archeops into Defeatist, Sceptile/M-Sceptile, Scyther, Rotom-S, +1 Vivillion, Swellow, +1 M-Altaria, etc.

I've seen people argue that it's Explosion makes it broken because it gets stab. If that's the case, what's stopping CB Lickilicky who has superior coverage as well as stab Explosion. It's Explosion is indeed threatening, but it comes at a hefty cost. The life of your Mega. On top of this, it's generally predictable, since it's used as a last ditch effort, and can be mitigated by several of it's counters (ie Miltank drinking it's own Milk the same turn, Ferroseed protecting, Poliwrath resting). Explosion is indeed a very powerful weapon in M-Glalie's arsenal, and is pretty hard to play around, but at it's worst it's a 1 for 1 vs teams that lack a switch in (IE Offense which isn't meant to be taking hits anyways let alone giving m-Glalie the opportunity to get in and click Explosion).

Perhaps a core will appear further down the line that makes M-Glalie broken, but currently I think it's just a threat that needed to be accounted for just like Sawk or Typhlosion.

Freeze Dry did slip my mind during this post, but it also forces Glalie to free up a slot, most likely Ice Shard, doesn't receive a boost from Refridgerate, and is only base 70 power. It does allow it to 2hko Physdef water types however and makes it harder to wall. Assuming it gets rid of Ice Shard, it now becomes much easier to revenge kill so a trade-off has to be made. It is a very good point though, completely forgot it existed. My stance doesn't change as it still has switch ins, but Freeze Dry definitely needs to be accounted for. Also, I wouldn't say Ice/Ground coverage is good on it's own. I think Stab is needed to make it very effective (ie Piloswine/Mamoswine) and Glalie only gets Stab on it's "Ice" moves.
 
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Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Just a heads up, but Mega Glalie does get access to Freeze Dry (2HKOes pretty much every physically defensive Water even with minimal investment) alongside its already great Ice + Ground coverage, so its wallbreaking potential is certainly there. That said, NU already has a powerful, fast (but frail) Ice-type with great coverage in the form of Jynx, so a tricky-to-wall Ice-type attacker in Mega Glalie isn't really anything new to the tier.
 

soulgazer

I FEEL INFINITE
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We got usage stats:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...er-update-december-2014.3523339/#post-5893977

.. and it seems like we lost some stuff!!
Lopunny moved from PU to RU
Altaria moved from PU to UU
Pidgeot moved from PU to RU
Dragalge moved from NU to RU
Sceptile moved from NU to RU
Beedrill moved from PU to UU


and we got..
Wobbuffet moved from RU to NU <- telepathy Wobbuffet boyz

edit: I can't say 100%, but we are most likely still going to vote on Slurpuff.

edit2: well unless we decide that the metagame changed enough to make Slurpuff balanced.. which I would be surprised if it did.
 

Disjunction

Everything I waste gets recycled
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We got usage stats:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...er-update-december-2014.3523339/#post-5893977

.. and it seems like we lost some stuff!!
Lopunny moved from PU to RU
Altaria moved from PU to UU
Pidgeot moved from PU to RU
Dragalge moved from NU to RU
Sceptile moved from NU to RU
Beedrill moved from PU to UU


and we got..
Wobbuffet moved from RU to NU <- telepathy Wobbuffet boyz
Now you get how RU feels every tier shift :]




and hitmonchan didn't drop lol

Anyway i am not really surprised by those tier shift. The only weird thing is maybe Pidgeot managing to become RU i which it is not outstanding (as it wasnt in NU). Garbodor not rising to NU is also very weird :/ (even tho it doesnt affect tiering)
 

jake

underdog of the year
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As of now, unless things change, all votes will still come in for posterity - and Slurpuff's will count.

Not sure what the final ruling on this will be (pending discussion with Raseri), but if any of those Pokemon that rose via usage fall back down and were banned in this quickban vote, they will remain BL3 until they are retested. If they were voted to be not banned, they will return to NU outright.
 

marilli

With you
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How on earth is RU getting saturated with everything every tier shift i've seen, RU gains more mons than it loses why doesnt it have 70 mons in the tier yet....

Before ORAS release I expected there to be at least 1 fastmega left (Pidgeot), and wasn't aware Adaptability Galge was gonna be released so I expected Galge to stay. I guess all the new meta stuff I built for beforehand isn't gonna happen ;_;

The meta seems fun, though. A lot more balanced teams are viable now, Glalie is probably a huge threat but it could be manageable. We'll see though.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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How on earth is RU getting saturated with everything every tier shift i've seen, RU gains more mons than it loses why doesnt it have 70 mons in the tier yet....

Before ORAS release I expected there to be at least 1 fastmega left (Pidgeot), and wasn't aware Adaptability Galge was gonna be released so I expected Galge to stay. I guess all the new meta stuff I built for beforehand isn't gonna happen ;_;

The meta seems fun, though. A lot more balanced teams are viable now, Glalie is probably a huge threat but it could be manageable. We'll see though.
This is the first drop we've gotten since Jolteon (like 6 months ago) which was our only drop since Xy RU was in beta. Blame UU imo they have like 60 mons. We steal your mons to protest UU ;-;

Anyways these tier shifts are probably good for NU as even broken Bee is gone. Maybe I'll pick up some NU again :o. All hail mega camel imo, seems really good now that other Megas have left.
 

Shuckleking87

"Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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At least we will be getting Mawile in February now, sweet.
With Dragalge leaving and hopefully poison spam decreasing, I can see Mega-Audino finding a real nice niche in the tier both as a support poke with its massive defenses and its calm mind set.
SD/dragon dance gatr looks like to be a king once again, especially with a great offensive check in sceptile gone. I can see leafeon usage go up now.
 

CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
Empidge why did you have to leave us ;-----; I can't help but feel that M-pidgeot will fall back down after the hype dies down around it. Maybe it won't though - RU players are weird, and never want to give NU anything.

Other than that, nice to see that everything troublesome left the tier on its own, including bee, and pluff is most likely leaving soon as well. Should make for a super fun and enjoyable tier very soon :]
 
Comparing mons just because of their damage output is ridiculous and doesn't give a good base for your argument. If youve read some other post's you'd see that dragalge is so good due to the amount of free switch ins it gets and how easily it can be switched out due to it not being weak to stealth rocks. These are things glalie does not have so it is easily revenged and worn down by stealth rocks if they choose to switch out.
I'm only comparing them in that they lack switch ins. I'm not saying one outclasses the other. I was using both Dragalge and Glalie on one team and Glalie was consistently putting in more work because no one was prepared for it.

People leave their weakened water types in thinking they can take a hit, but

0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 206-246 (63.3 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 236-282 (71 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Somebody named Qwilifish as a check. lol no

0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It does wear itself down quickly due to recoil and hazard weakness, and it is walled by Thick Fat mons and defensive titans like Steelix. But if a team lacks one of those then Glalie is gonna be punching massive holes.
 
I'm only comparing them in that they lack switch ins. I'm not saying one outclasses the other. I was using both Dragalge and Glalie on one team and Glalie was consistently putting in more work because no one was prepared for it.

People leave their weakened water types in thinking they can take a hit, but

0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 206-246 (63.3 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 236-282 (71 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Somebody named Qwilifish as a check. lol no

0 SpA Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 284-336 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It does wear itself down quickly due to recoil and hazard weakness, and it is walled by Thick Fat mons and defensive titans like Steelix. But if a team lacks one of those then Glalie is gonna be punching massive holes.
Dragalge does outclass glalie in lack of switch ins. Saying if a team lacks a thick fat mon or tanky defensive mon is a poor argument because its like saying if the opponent doesn't have a fire spam check typhlosion is gonna do major work. Obviously its going to do well if they dont have a check or counter. Its a good mon but saying it needs to be banned is a bit of a stretch.

You said yourself that it was putting in work because people weren't prepared for it, well now that the tier has been cleaned up a bit with the bigger threats gone, people will be more prepared for it and it won't be the massive ban worthy threat you see it to be hopefully.
 
Dragalge does outclass glalie in lack of switch ins. Saying if a team lacks a thick fat mon or tanky defensive mon is a poor argument because its like saying if the opponent doesn't have a fire spam check typhlosion is gonna do major work. Obviously its going to do well if they dont have a check or counter. Its a good mon but saying it needs to be banned is a bit of a stretch.

You said yourself that it was putting in work because people weren't prepared for it, well now that the tier has been cleaned up a bit with the bigger threats gone, people will be more prepared for it and it won't be the massive ban worthy threat you see it to be hopefully.
I meant Steelix specifically, not just any defensive mon. Max defense Uxie, Weezing and Ferroseed are 2HKO'd by Double-Edge. These are some of the best walls in the tier and they can't switch into a neutral attack. Hell, even Steelix dies to Double-Edge plus Explosion. Max defense Dusclops has a chance to be OHKO'd by +attack nature Explosion. Basically any wall lacking Thick Fat is gonna die if it tries to switch in.
 

boltsandbombers

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Alright, so now that altaria, lopunny, and sceptile have all moved up with tier shifts, is the council just voting on dragalge and slurpuff? Just confirming.
 
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