ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

[Celever]

orkid, you need to have very high happiness to get the pledge moves. I got to Mauville yesterday and my Marshtomp couldn't learn Water Pledge! Had you been doing anything special to make your Grovyle particularly friendly towards you? Like Pokemon Amie or Super Training?

 

[Antihaxxer]

orkid, you need to have very high happiness to get the pledge moves. I got to Mauville yesterday and my Marshtomp couldn't learn Water Pledge! Had you been doing anything special to make your Grovyle particularly friendly towards you? Like Pokemon Amie or Super Training?

Same for me .... and He never dies !

 

[Red G]

I ran physical Treecko with swords dance and it did extremely well once it evolved into a Sceptile. The Grovyle days were long, though, and unless you mega evolve or swords dance you aren't OHKOing anything. It's good enough in the late game for A tier, but S tier for Treecko is crazy. It's not even very bulky.

 

[Lucchini]

Celever, could you wait to move things up and down until a bit of discussion happens? I think the changes made come at a much faster pace than our thoughts and conclusions in this thread thus far.

Colonel M

- I have already been bouncing back and forth with Corphish. I want someone to legitimately test it first before I continue to keep it in S.

I'm including it in my team so I'll add my 2 cents to others' opinions some time later. I think it's quite clear that there's nothing particularly outstanding about it to warrant a presence in the S-tier of all places. The question is whether it should be in A, B or C, and that's something for us to figure out by doing some work and some talkin'.

The biggest perk is that Sharpedo Surfs almost twice as fast as any other Pokemon with a small cost of not being able to fish in the water. Even outside of combat it is a godly HM Slave that only lacks learning Fly and Cut. Every efficient playthrough should have a Sharpedo. Im not even joking with this statement either.

Well, I'd certainly prefer if you were joking and simply evaluated Sharpedo for its combat, availability and so forth - actual contributions to fighting. I don't know what you specifically mean by "efficiency playthrough" but if it implies speedrunning, let's say the single segment variety that calls for reliability, then this is quite different from this tier list, because we are not soloing the game, nor are we using Exp Share, which results in a bigger but weaker party.

- Geodude has minor mediocre moments but its biggest problem (Speed) is solved with Rock Polish. After Brawly it rarely struggles against any important fight. Wattson is screwed by STAB Magnitude or Bulldoze. Flannery will suffer from STAB Rock Tomb or STAB Magnitude. Though Graveler and Golem dont have SE coverage with STABs against Norman there is a hard time for Norman to bypass Graveler and definitely Golem. Only Pelliper poses as a moderate threat with Winona.

That is roughly 3-4 major battles that Geodude family exceeds in. And it can still somewhat win vs Tate and Liza if someone uses Smack Down - theyre all prone to Earthquake / Magnitude in this way.

It only sucks late game but its period of existence is very solid. Rock solid. It can be dropped off after its weak point starts settling in and its contributions, for the most part, yield positively.

Keep Golem in A. I even doubt Graveler outside of A. Yes it sort of drops off after Winona but you can box it and say no big deal.

You can't expect yourself to use Rock Polish every battle. You're also not sweeping with Rock Polish alone because your offensive capability is just very good, but by no means something comparable to Mega Alakazam or Mawile. Don't forget that taking an extra turn to set up is inefficient.

Geodude/Graveler does perform very well against Wallace (surviving Magnet Bomb), but Flannery's special moves hit too hard for him to stay in for too long (Overheat could easily KO) and Torkoal is very tanky. Against Slaking, Graveler can survive a hit, but does not beat the Slakings in a particularly quick way either.

If you're suggesting that we catch a Pokemon for one good gym performance (Wallace isn't anywhere as hard as before with the access to Bulldoze, Power-up Punch and Low Sweep TM in Mauville) and two okay ones, just to be dropped later on, then I strongly urge you to re-theorymon this again, as this is a horrible disinvestment of experience points from the battles at your disposal.

To conclude, Geodude line's unimpressive, obsolete typing, just good but unspectacular offence, horrible speed and special defence and very poor gym and elite matchups make it a Pokemon not worthy of a tier above C. It hasn't been good since generation 2 (where it had some good gym matchups), and the only thing that makes it worth talking about now is that Sturdy ability.

Also Marcus almost never has a bad period even in FE7. Enemies are so piss weak that Marcus would still double the majority of them. Those he misses Brave Axe would pick up just fine. I mentioned FE7 Marcus and not FE6 because FE6 Marcus actually suffers an eventual rut where as FE7 Marcus stays strong for about 90% of the game. I also didnt mention Seth for obvious reasons.

You're right; FE6 Marcus would maybe be Dunsparce or something. FE7 Marcus is best comparable to RBY Raticate maybe - decent mon with big earlygame power in an easy game. Seth would be RBY Nidoking or XY's Mega Lucario or something.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Sceptile does not hit hard enough and its not bulky enough in return to be good enough for S. Also Grass Pledge is outclassed by Giga Drain and Leaf Blade is a decent alternative if you do not delay Treecko's evolution to Level 21.

Well, I'd certainly prefer if you were joking and simply evaluated Sharpedo for its combat, availability and so forth - actual contributions to fighting. I don't know what you specifically mean by "efficiency playthrough" but if it implies speedrunning, let's say the single segment variety that calls for reliability, then this is quite different from this tier list, because we are not soloing the game, nor are we using Exp Share, which results in a bigger but weaker party.

If I am aiming to try and get through the game as efficiently as possible without "speedrunning" then the increased surf speed is something I would rate highly because the increased speed would allow me to reach new locations quicker on average than just normal surfing and the like. That said Sharpedo is a competent battler itself imho. It has a solid matchup against Team Magma due to its natural typing advantage and has great matchups against Liza & Tate and Phoebe. It also has a natural advantage against half of Steven's team. Its biggest issue is its frailty but at least it is a competent attacker to make up for it. Its battling prowess is more of a B-Tier imho but the increased surfing speed perk and competency as a water-based HM slave makes it more efficient, efficient enough to warrant an A at the very least. The only downside is that you have to find another surfer to get the Good Rod to get it and and that it is also in the Slow Exp. Group (which does not really matter if you are just HM slaving with it).

Besides it is not as if a Pokémon's tiering being impacted by something other than its battling prowess and availability is unprecedented.

===

Finally I do not agree with tiering Braviary, Drifloon and Murkrow, simply because they are not Hoenn Regional mons and it is also a bit of a slippery slope because then do we tier things like Tynamo or Cofagrigus or even Lugia simply because they can be gotten before the E4 just like the aforementioned three? Same with Clefairy. Stick to Hoenn regional mons imho for simplicity, especially since the majority of these will go to D or E anyway.

 

[hard]

Hi guys! I just wanted to report on some Pokemon I used in my last runs in OmegaRuby. (note: From what I see until now I think some Pokemon have a reasonable performance change in between the versions, because the TeamM/A fights occur often and are a very valuable exp source - so it might be good to tell which versions we use)


Treecko: I love you gecko but your coverage sucks! Being physical frail is the other major downside in the early game, the speed does its magic because being 2HKOed only occurs in theory as none can hit you twice, outside of the Pokemon you shouldn´t fight against - Poison, Flying, Fire and some Steel types are a no go for a long time.
Holding of evolution until 21 might be worth it, but is risky because you might need Groovyles power against Brawly.

Once we have survived the mediocreness in early and mid game you do your best to shine in the late game. A sure B for me, I can understand A ranking for everyone who got a better nature/IV combo. (mild nature, ugh, decent IVs, too much speed EVs ;)


Ralts: FUCK YOU. No S, no A. Sucks that you have to catch it at lv 3+ slow exp gain+ lower physical bulk than Magikarp(the one that matters in early game)

it got a lot better with fairy STAB moves in ORAS but tbh it does not contribute anything until you have beaten Norman. Delaying evolution to Kirlia is highly recommended up to lv 27 as you level faster(1.2 exp gain) and get the necessary moves (Kiss, Mind, Psychic) earlier while the stat gain from evolution is only mildly helpful because it is not enough.

Mine had Trace, which was a major plus in catching good Pokemon, was modest (just like its performance) and had a gorgeous IV set - that was not enough until you got Gardevoir. It died a lot and got my other Pokemon into a lot more trouble than necessary during switch training. Would be fine if Gardevoir would be tanky enough to get the rest of the game down, but even with Kiss its physical bulk was a major annoyance(matters for Norman/Winona). If you could catch it later, it would still be very good (A with some hints at S). But with the horrible and long grinding to lv. 30 it cannot be higher than B.
(Yes I have also used Abra and had more problems with taking hits, but it has to do that much less than Raltsuck. Mega Zam>Gardevoir>Zam but Kadabra>Abra=Ralts/Kirlia, also you don´t have spoons little fairy girl, get over your anorexia!)


Magikarp: Thank god we don´t need to catch you at Lv 5! After 5-10 annoying slow learner level of switching around you become a nuke. But we know that from every other game already, that´s why we use you bitch.

Nice bulk as a Gyarados and that sexy smashing power gives it a definite A rank but I would even say S, which gives you a hint that I am able to suffer through grinding and didn´t bash Ralts for no reason(sucker). (Serious nature mediocre IVs)


Numel: Simpley the best... fire type that you can get in OmegaRuby. Does much better against other Fire types than the Torchic line, which this girl was supposed to do, because I hate SpA EVs on Gyarados. Nice, no sexy level movepool. Sad that GameFreak went back to make Hoenn even more linear than Ruby was, so still no Wattson smashing! Left cycling road open for this friend, but not a lot of magnets to smash. Found decent replacements by smashing little Fairy Girls, yeah I´m that guy :D

The speed is a huge annoyance throughout the game, because 70/70 is not bulky, but it can avoid to die against any non water attacks throughout the game and usually at least 2HKOs everything else. Constant healing sucks so give it Giga Drain buy some extra Potions. It will need them.
I vouch for B rank but can understand C because mine had great stats and was not as quiet as its nature was telling me. Also Simple>World, unless your opponent has Swag(ger). (game version is a major aspect here, C for AS might be more fitting so low B or C considering both versions)


Sharpedo: That speed! with only half a sharks body! lets imagine how it would be as a full shark...
Just say no to babying a Carvanha and be wise to capture it as a shark when you arrive in Moosdeep. Gets a lot of things done when you are patient enough to wait for a high leveled one. Nice upgrades in movepool and the utility of sharks in general give it a high performance. A with minor hints at S as a sharkpedo. Slow leveling and neutral match ups hurt when you have only half a body.

I wanted it so I did the grind from a piranha to a shark... ANNOYING! Dont do it, it does not even reach lv 40 when you come to Moosdeep unless you cheat or love it a lot, because sharks get feed with humans they love. (would lower to B but you can avoid this)

nature: evil, IVs: not measurable


Shroomish: Love is all I got to give!

Fluctuating exp rate is a godsend in the early game. It flies from lv 5 to 15. Can contribute everywhere(Roxanne= spam Drain, Brawly Seed+Drain> Bulk Up, Wattson: just punch them) and shows that GameFreak did well in adjusting movepools in ORAS. But after low contributions against Team Magma(Aqua gives it a tiny better matchup) and Flannery and fluctuating exp shit kicking in it has a hard time to keep the early pace in midgame, which leads to a mediocre end game even though it has some nice matchups there. S in the beginning B in the end, choose something in between.

(nice IVs and was quite relaxed)


That was a lot to write and the page is full, so I will do other experiences (Brobat I love you too!) somewhere else.

I can only give you some thoughts about different experience gains, where it matters and where not in a much shorter post, but I´m not sure if you would like that.

Give me some feedback... or I will feed you back to my shark.

 

[Aerophoenix]

I don't have time for anything other than simply anecdotal evidence, but I honestly think that Electrike should move back to S. This may be slightly dependent on version, but it's fast and hard-hitting with Volt Switch/Charge Beam (and Volt Switch's switching functionality doesn't matter in random battles if you OHKO them) early and once it gets Overheat is gives it great coverage. The main thing is it does very well against Aqua's Carvanhas and Bats (Magma's Bats too, but less good against Numels I imagine) and with the absolute prevalence of water routes and Water-types on those routes it has a very easy time levelling, even is it is in the Slow group. It doesn't fare great against the E4 (nothing really good nor bad here, just a lot of neutralities) and has some specific major battles where it shines, but with how easily it sweeps through most water battles I firmly believe it deserves S tier.

 

[Stellar]

Hi guys! I just wanted to report on some Pokemon I used in my last runs in OmegaRuby. (note: From what I see until now I think some Pokemon have a reasonable performance change in between the versions, because the TeamM/A fights occur often and are a very valuable exp source - so it might be good to tell which versions we use)


Treecko: I love you gecko but your coverage sucks! Being physical frail is the other major downside in the early game, the speed does its magic because being 2HKOed only occurs in theory as none can hit you twice, outside of the Pokemon you shouldn´t fight against - Poison, Flying, Fire and some Steel types are a no go for a long time.
Holding of evolution until 21 might be worth it, but is risky because you might need Groovyles power against Brawly.

Once we have survived the mediocreness in early and mid game you do your best to shine in the late game. A sure B for me, I can understand A ranking for everyone who got a better nature/IV combo. (mild nature, ugh, decent IVs, too much speed EVs ;)


Ralts: FUCK YOU. No S, no A. Sucks that you have to catch it at lv 3+ slow exp gain+ lower physical bulk than Magikarp(the one that matters in early game)

it got a lot better with fairy STAB moves in ORAS but tbh it does not contribute anything until you have beaten Norman. Delaying evolution to Kirlia is highly recommended up to lv 27 as you level faster(1.2 exp gain) and get the necessary moves (Kiss, Mind, Psychic) earlier while the stat gain from evolution is only mildly helpful because it is not enough.

Mine had Trace, which was a major plus in catching good Pokemon, was modest (just like its performance) and had a gorgeous IV set - that was not enough until you got Gardevoir. It died a lot and got my other Pokemon into a lot more trouble than necessary during switch training. Would be fine if Gardevoir would be tanky enough to get the rest of the game down, but even with Kiss its physical bulk was a major annoyance(matters for Norman/Winona). If you could catch it later, it would still be very good (A with some hints at S). But with the horrible and long grinding to lv. 30 it cannot be higher than B.
(Yes I have also used Abra and had more problems with taking hits, but it has to do that much less than Raltsuck. Mega Zam>Gardevoir>Zam but Kadabra>Abra=Ralts/Kirlia, also you don´t have spoons little fairy girl, get over your anorexia!)


Magikarp: Thank god we don´t need to catch you at Lv 5! After 5-10 annoying slow learner level of switching around you become a nuke. But we know that from every other game already, that´s why we use you bitch.

Nice bulk as a Gyarados and that sexy smashing power gives it a definite A rank but I would even say S, which gives you a hint that I am able to suffer through grinding and didn´t bash Ralts for no reason(sucker). (Serious nature mediocre IVs)


Numel: Simpley the best... fire type that you can get in OmegaRuby. Does much better against other Fire types than the Torchic line, which this girl was supposed to do, because I hate SpA EVs on Gyarados. Nice, no sexy level movepool. Sad that GameFreak went back to make Hoenn even more linear than Ruby was, so still no Wattson smashing! Left cycling road open for this friend, but not a lot of magnets to smash. Found decent replacements by smashing little Fairy Girls, yeah I´m that guy :D

The speed is a huge annoyance throughout the game, because 70/70 is not bulky, but it can avoid to die against any non water attacks throughout the game and usually at least 2HKOs everything else. Constant healing sucks so give it Giga Drain buy some extra Potions. It will need them.
I vouch for B rank but can understand C because mine had great stats and was not as quiet as its nature was telling me. Also Simple>World, unless your opponent has Swag(ger). (game version is a major aspect here, C for AS might be more fitting so low B or C considering both versions)


Sharpedo: That speed! with only half a sharks body! lets imagine how it would be as a full shark...
Just say no to babying a Carvanha and be wise to capture it as a shark when you arrive in Moosdeep. Gets a lot of things done when you are patient enough to wait for a high leveled one. Nice upgrades in movepool and the utility of sharks in general give it a high performance. A with minor hints at S as a sharkpedo. Slow leveling and neutral match ups hurt when you have only half a body.

I wanted it so I did the grind from a piranha to a shark... ANNOYING! Dont do it, it does not even reach lv 40 when you come to Moosdeep unless you cheat or love it a lot, because sharks get feed with humans they love. (would lower to B but you can avoid this)

nature: evil, IVs: not measurable


Shroomish: Love is all I got to give!

Fluctuating exp rate is a godsend in the early game. It flies from lv 5 to 15. Can contribute everywhere(Roxanne= spam Drain, Brawly Seed+Drain> Bulk Up, Wattson: just punch them) and shows that GameFreak did well in adjusting movepools in ORAS. But after low contributions against Team Magma(Aqua gives it a tiny better matchup) and Flannery and fluctuating exp shit kicking in it has a hard time to keep the early pace in midgame, which leads to a mediocre end game even though it has some nice matchups there. S in the beginning B in the end, choose something in between.

(nice IVs and was quite relaxed)


That was a lot to write and the page is full, so I will do other experiences (Brobat I love you too!) somewhere else.

I can only give you some thoughts about different experience gains, where it matters and where not in a much shorter post, but I´m not sure if you would like that.

Give me some feedback... or I will feed you back to my shark.

For reference, Sharpedo can now only be caught on Routes 118 and 119 (the same routes you could originally catch Carvanha). You can no longer catch Sharpedo in Mossdeep City.

 

[Lucchini]

Sceptile does not hit hard enough and its not bulky enough in return to be good enough for S. Also Grass Pledge is outclassed by Giga Drain and Leaf Blade is a decent alternative if you do not delay Treecko's evolution to Level 21.

Leaf Storm can be tutored as soon as you're fully evolved. If a 130-BP STAB move off 145 sp. atk. isn't high enough then I don't know what is.

A lot of supposed bulk problems can be resolved almost fully by using draining moves in the right places, and are absent entirely if you kill things quickly.

If I am aiming to try and get through the game as efficiently as possible without "speedrunning" then the increased surf speed is something I would rate highly because the increased speed would allow me to reach new locations quicker on average than just normal surfing and the like. That said Sharpedo is a competent battler itself imho. It has a solid matchup against Team Magma due to its natural typing advantage and has great matchups against Liza & Tate and Phoebe. It also has a natural advantage against half of Steven's team. Its biggest issue is its frailty but at least it is a competent attacker to make up for it. Its battling prowess is more of a B-Tier imho but the increased surfing speed perk and competency as a water-based HM slave makes it more efficient, efficient enough to warrant an A at the very least. The only downside is that you have to find another surfer to get the Good Rod to get it and and that it is also in the Slow Exp. Group (which does not really matter if you are just HM slaving with it).

How many seconds do you estimate the faster surfing would save? Is even a single second left assuming we add up the time needed to catch your first user of Surf (it can be something like Zigzagoon early on), then find a Carvanha, catch it and evolve it? I think we're already in the red by this point. And do you think that this requirement, as Colonel M put it, that you absolutely must use Sharpedo if playing efficiently, is in any way connectable with the goals of this tier list?

Efficiency also means, among other things, not being wasteful with resources and getting "more for less". Buying Lemonades instead of Super Potions is a bad idea in a speedrun-type playthrough, but is very much an efficient idea as you can afford to buy more TMs for example.

It's been corrected that Sharpedo never gets its mega stone during the maingame, so its special attack is stuck at 95 base for the rest of the game. This isn't nearly high enough to keep scoring OHKOs, so those 40 base defences will be taking a lot of punishment - punishment Sharpedo will succumb to easily.

Besides it is not as if a Pokémon's tiering being impacted by something other than its battling prowess and availability is unprecedented.

The RBY tier list is an extraordinary example of this community's effort in tiering the games' Pokemon in a most thoroughly executed manner, so let's find Farfetch'd, a Pokemon with a highly unique combination of HM moves available to it, and see what the conclusion is behind its tiering in High:

Farfetch'd is a much more serious Pokémon than it looks. It makes up for mediocre speed and bulk and slight TM dependence with its great power. It one- or two-shots most common enemies and matches well against most bosses. Be careful not to exceed the level at which you can control outsiders, though, or your greatest ally can turn into your worst nightmare.

No mentioning of HM slaving here.

It's true that it's not unprecedented, but these precedents all seem to be in places where community discussion died after a couple pages and no serious effort was put into the ranking by multiple users at once. The original on-site RSE tier list is incredibly superficial for example.

I like to think of it this way; if you're an HM slave, your moveset is limited and inflexible (you can't re-teach old TMs based on your location, which is a privilege we have enjoyed since gen 5). If it's moves like Surf and Waterfall, let's say on Sharpedo, then access to them is invaluable because Sharpedo also puts them into great use in battle. But Dive and Strength also being there means you're not teaching Earthquake or Ice Fang for example.

Finally I do not agree with tiering Braviary, Drifloon and Murkrow, simply because they are not Hoenn Regional mons and it is also a bit of a slippery slope because then do we tier things like Tynamo or Cofagrigus or even Lugia simply because they can be gotten before the E4 just like the aforementioned three? Same with Clefairy. Stick to Hoenn regional mons imho for simplicity, especially since the majority of these will go to D or E anyway.

Perhaps mons worthy of a place higher than D/E could be covered individually, while the rest are assumed to be somewhere down below due to poor availability and other factors.

 

[Karxrida]

National Dex moms probably shouldn't even be listed unless you can grab them on the way to the E4 and they can actually do something there. Clefairy for example requires going back to Meteor Falls, grinding some levels, and somehow getting a Moon Stone (can't remember if you can even get one or where, so feel free to correct me here). Then you have to deal with it not killing things quickly due to lack of EVs and having "meh" Special Attack, which can get it killed a lot. Also it sucks against Steven.

 

[hard]

For reference, Sharpedo can now only be caught on Routes 118 and 119 (the same routes you could originally catch Carvanha). You can no longer catch Sharpedo in Mossdeep City.

I guess you are right, I was more thinking about getting Super Rod in Mossdeep, which you will need for sharky.
Btw backtracking is most often a non issue with the new fly and soar mechanics, so let´s not pretend to play Ruby when we are already in OmegaRuby, times change, mechanics as well. (we all get old, that´s what stays the same ;)
I have trouble seeing the downrates on Bagon and Clefairy for example as they come not that much under leveled by the time you beat Wallace (same level range as Victory Road). Both need a short time to baby them up, but I would guess that Eviolite on Shelgon or Clefairy makes this not be such a painful experience, its not like feeding a Ralts for 27 level.

 

[FMD]

I think Feebas should be moved down from C to D. It has one of the worst pre-evolution movepools in all of ORAS, outdone only by Abra and Magikarp. Even after evolving, it still has a poor movepool, even if the late game, hard to get TMs like Ice Beam are counted. Furthermore, its evolution method is among one of the least efficient ways to get a decent Water-type in the game, consuming dozens of berries, a decent amount of time and providing no exp. All in all, Feebas is a high-cost Pokemon that provides comparatively little gain.

 

[DHR-107]

Hi Mario With Lasers - I really surprised. was your Treecko a -SpA nature? was mine just fucking amazing? the best treecko ever? in the top ten percent of all treeckos? maybe? Here is my exp with treecko vs the gyms/e4. i was not using exp share and had a team of 6+ (i changed pokes a few times). i wasn’t purposefully over leveled, if i was above level (i was for flannery) it was not by much. it held a miracle seed til the mega stone.
Roxanne- easily beat solo,

Brawly - mega drained to victory (didn’t solo the whole gym but beat brawly himself),

Watson - Solo with grass pledge, i used a paralyze heal at some point,

Flannery - wasn’t gonna use him and then what i was using fainted. then it beat numel and torkoal with grass pledge,

Norman - was using the traded makuhita. but i wanted to see how much grass pledge did, it beat his final slaking - grass pledge is a 2hko iirc,

winnona - didn’t use it here except to beat pellipper which it did,

liza and tate - used with surf m-Latios it did fine but you know who cares surf Latios is the real star,

wallace- soloed. aura beam from sealo didn’t do enough (i kept it un-megaevolved) leaf blade is strong vs mitotic,

sidney - beat. what are any of them doing to you? absol is too slow/frail to be a real threat . you have fighting/bug coverage but grass stab is enough most of the time (obvi bug for the cactus/tree)

phoebe - all of these ghosts are weak except dusknoir anyway, other than that its fine

glacia - beat the walrus, otherwise i didn't use it

drake- his grass stab does good damage vs the flygons and kingdra (watch out for ice beam/flamethrower but mine was a -spD nature and it lived flygon’s. flamethrower (kingdra yawned at me). he pairs well with a rock type for the two flyers.

steven- gets rid of claydol, aggron. can earthquake metagross but will not be able to beat it. you could heart scale night slash for metagross i guess but that seems very iffy to me. the rest are nope

Team Magma - Not a problem. rock tomb beats the 2 or 3 golbats. camerupt is shut down by grass pledge/megaevolving to remove the fire weakness. it beat the mega camerupt for me.

To me this seems very close to S.

Not calling you a liar or anything, but I just did a load of calcs vs 0IV/0EV enemies (Magneton, Slaking and Torkoal) using Grass Pledge (Base 80 Hidden Power in the calc) and Grovyle doesn't come close to the numbers you suggest. The only one it does come close too is a 2HKO on Slaking, which is pretty much entirely luck based as unless you are speed+ nature and same level (or higher is the only way to outspeed Slaking).

The only explanation I have for this is that you were using the XP share and were hugely overlevelled compared to the mons you were fighting :/ From what other people are saying, and a friend of mine Treecko seems to be solidly A rank, and nothing more. He's simply too frail at certain points.

At the moment I am at Lilycove with Swampert/Manectric/Lairon/Loudred/Breloom/Swellow and have only really found Manectric up to the point of the Manectrictite being a bit weak. Everyone else is more than holding their own. Electrike up to 26/30 is painful. I ended up buying Charge beam and it made it better for a bit, but it was a godsend when I got both Discharge and the Manectrictite.

 

[orkid]

DHR-107 i dunno grass pledge def beat magneton. i had in something else i was training up and it got paralyzed and fainted and then grass pledge just swept watson i'm pretty sure it was a 2hko. and i beat the torkoal with grovyle. i didn't use amie, or super train, or exp share. i had +spA nature. maybe there was a crit or two? maybe my levels were much higher than i thought? i was not training for the badges but i also didn't make sure to never be above level. i really just played the game like normal and walked to the badges around when a person would. so i have no idea why my treecko would be happier than anyone elses starter. I was told by May at the very start of the game that I had a special connection to all pokemon - maybe that's it? In the end if the pledge is not usually available then i guess A makes sense, because delaying to evolve seems not so great. but i still think its close to S

In general I've said everything I can say about all the pokemon i have experience with. I agree with basically everyting in both of the posts Lucchini wrote. i'm gonna have to play the game again before i have any new data.

 

[Karxrida]

DHR-107 i dunno grass pledge def beat magneton. i had in something else i was training up and it got paralyzed and fainted and then grass pledge just swept watson i'm pretty sure it was a 2hko. and i beat the torkoal with grovyle. i didn't use amie, or super train, or exp share. i had +spA nature. maybe there was a crit or two? maybe my levels were much higher than i thought? i was not training for the badges but i also didn't make sure to never be above level. i really just played the game like normal and walked to the badges around when a person would. so i have no idea why my treecko would be happier than anyone elses starter. I was told by May at the very start of the game that I had a special connection to all pokemon - maybe that's it? In the end if the pledge is not usually available then i guess A makes sense, because delaying to evolve seems not so great. but i still think its close to S

In general I've said everything I can say about all the pokemon i have experience with. I agree with basically everyting in both of the posts Lucchini wrote. i'm gonna have to play the game again before i have any new data.

I call bullshit. Grovyle isn't beating Torkoal in a million years without extreme hax and a major level advantage, as I'm pretty sure Rock Tomb can't even 2HKO while Overheat or even Body Slam murder you.

 

[Doubt]

My take on what I used in my playthrough (Please note I did use EXP share, so this isn't completely accurate with this tiering, but theory still stands, I guess. I also played AS, so faced Aqua)

Mudkip:
Excellent throughout the game. IIRC it starts with Water Gun now, so having early STAB really helps it along. Does great against Roxanne, Watson, Flannery, Liza and Tate, Steven, and Team Magma (I assume). Mega Swampert was a great power boost and looks hilarious to boot (Swampert angry...Swampert smash!). Agree with this for S.

Zigzagoon:
I didn't use this thing in battles, but as an HM slave it was great. Surf, Strength, Cut, and Rock Smash were good moves, even if I did have to put Dive/Waterfall on Swampert. Pickup is also a great ability, although if you don't use the EXP share or train it at all Pickup's usefulness drops off fairly fast. Not sure how A-tier is for this thing, as I can't speak for combat, but pickup and excellent HM slave ability makes this at least a B, if only for utility.

Ralts (Gallade):
This is going to be a bit...off. I used Super Training to get a Dawn stone as soon as the thing evolved into Kirlia, so I got to use Gallade throughout the game. This shouldn't count in tiering, as we've stated no Super Training, but I'll put it in anyway. It's a bit of a dud until you get to Mauville and get a Low Sweep TM. On the bright side, Low sweep helps Gallade destroy Norman, Watson, and the Carvanha line of Team Aqua. Getting Psycho Cut also really helped it out against all of the bats in Team Aqua, and it gets it at 31, letting you get through a majority of important Aqua battles with it. Also does well against Sidney, Glacia (minus Froslass if you don't have Night Slash), Phoebe (if Night Slash), and Steven, especially if you get it Close Combat. If you do choose to get Dawn Stone early I'd vote for high B or low A tier, but as even if we're assuming Dawn Stone at just before E4, I'd say E tier is too low. With access to Close Combat, Leaf Blade, and Night Slash all from Heart Scales, this thing does really well against almost all of the E4. I'd say D-tier at least, and that only because of the lateness with which you get it.

Shroomish:
Excellent all around. The one I got had Wake-Up Slap from the start with Dexnav (so can't speak for early stages), but the thing really does great. Good against Carvanha line of Aqua, good against Roxane, Watson, Norman, Sidney, Glacia, and Steven. Keep away from Winona, though, as 4x weak to flying really hurts. This thing is solid B-tier at least, perhaps even A-tier material for good matchups, early evolution, and decent STAB moves in Sky Uppercut and Seed Bomb.

Electrike:
This thing is good. As Electrike it's annoying to level up, but once you get into Manectric your worries disappear. The thing gets access to Volt Switch fairly early, and then soon after it gets Discharge, which is great, especially when in double battles when you can combine it with a ground type partner. It gets flamethrower and overheat for coverage, as well as Thunder Wave for ease of catching mons, which I found myself doing a lot more to unlock them in the Dexnav. A is a good tier for this.

Numel:
Maybe the MVP of my team, which is saying something as it was the latest addition to my team and came in 6-7 levels under the rest. This thing has a FANTASTIC movepool, though. Early Lava Plume, EQ through level-up, Rock Slide, and Curse (although I never did end up using it). It also has acceptable attacking stats and can go mixed pretty easily. Lava Plume is a great spread move that can carry you until flamethrower, and this thing makes an amazing doubles partner with Manectric, being immune to its Discharge, and having Rock Slide to help out. Solid Rock is also a rock solid (pun intended) ability, allowing to help mitigate that 4x water weakness. If you don't get one with Solid Rock, Magma Armor keeps it useful through postgame for breeding. It's good for Flannery, Winona (with Rock Slide), Aqua bats (again Rock Slide), Glacia, and Steven. Be wary of Carvanha line and Wallace, though. This thing is probably top A tier, and I'm on the fence for higher, as being nigh unusable at Wallace is annoying, but I could see this as S no problem.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Leaf Storm can be tutored as soon as you're fully evolved. If a 130-BP STAB move off 145 sp. atk. isn't high enough then I don't know what is.

A lot of supposed bulk problems can be resolved almost fully by using draining moves in the right places, and are absent entirely if you kill things quickly.

Leaf Storm—while generally more powerful—suffers from downsides (SpA drop, imperfect accuracy, 5 PP) relative to Leaf Blade and Giga Drain which while can be mitigated through switching or using Physical coverage makes it not as reliable relative to other moves as it can cost you turns that can be better spent and also in the case of having physical coverage like Leaf Blade as backup, uses up a slot that could be better spent on more relevant coverage moves such as Earthquake and even Dual Chop (which from testing is not really that great but it is better than other moves on the right Pokémon).

What I am trying to say is: Is it worth using such a high risk move with great reward over something that while weaker, is generally more reliable?

How many seconds do you estimate the faster surfing would save? Is even a single second left assuming we add up the time needed to catch your first user of Surf (it can be something like Zigzagoon early on), then find a Carvanha, catch it and evolve it? I think we're already in the red by this point. And do you think that this requirement, as Colonel M put it, that you absolutely must use Sharpedo if playing efficiently, is in any way connectable with the goals of this tier list?

Efficiency also means, among other things, not being wasteful with resources and getting "more for less". Buying Lemonades instead of Super Potions is a bad idea in a speedrun-type playthrough, but is very much an efficient idea as you can afford to buy more TMs for example.

It's been corrected that Sharpedo never gets its mega stone during the maingame, so its special attack is stuck at 95 base for the rest of the game. This isn't nearly high enough to keep scoring OHKOs, so those 40 base defences will be taking a lot of punishment - punishment Sharpedo will succumb to easily.

The RBY tier list is an extraordinary example of this community's effort in tiering the games' Pokemon in a most thoroughly executed manner, so let's find Farfetch'd, a Pokemon with a highly unique combination of HM moves available to it, and see what the conclusion is behind its tiering in High:

Farfetch'd is a much more serious Pokémon than it looks. It makes up for mediocre speed and bulk and slight TM dependence with its great power. It one- or two-shots most common enemies and matches well against most bosses. Be careful not to exceed the level at which you can control outsiders, though, or your greatest ally can turn into your worst nightmare.

No mentioning of HM slaving here.

It's true that it's not unprecedented, but these precedents all seem to be in places where community discussion died after a couple pages and no serious effort was put into the ranking by multiple users at once. The original on-site RSE tier list is incredibly superficial for example.

I like to think of it this way; if you're an HM slave, your moveset is limited and inflexible (you can't re-teach old TMs based on your location, which is a privilege we have enjoyed since gen 5). If it's moves like Surf and Waterfall, let's say on Sharpedo, then access to them is invaluable because Sharpedo also puts them into great use in battle. But Dive and Strength also being there means you're not teaching Earthquake or Ice Fang for example.

This is clearly a philosophical argument where our views differ to a degree and given it is generally up to Celever to decide what is considered "efficient", is not worth arguing over.

With regards to Sharpedo, I never said that the mega stone was available before the post game nor did I say you have to use its special coverage (though Surf is the only decent Water-type STAB it has at the point you get it iirc). You still have base 120 Attack, moves like Crunch (and later Waterfall) and even Expert Belt from the Trick House to help it mow through the encounters I mentioned.

DHR-107 i dunno grass pledge def beat magneton. i had in something else i was training up and it got paralyzed and fainted and then grass pledge just swept watson i'm pretty sure it was a 2hko. and i beat the torkoal with grovyle. i didn't use amie, or super train, or exp share. i had +spA nature. maybe there was a crit or two? maybe my levels were much higher than i thought? i was not training for the badges but i also didn't make sure to never be above level. i really just played the game like normal and walked to the badges around when a person would. so i have no idea why my treecko would be happier than anyone elses starter. I was told by May at the very start of the game that I had a special connection to all pokemon - maybe that's it? In the end if the pledge is not usually available then i guess A makes sense, because delaying to evolve seems not so great. but i still think its close to S

In general I've said everything I can say about all the pokemon i have experience with. I agree with basically everyting in both of the posts Lucchini wrote. i'm gonna have to play the game again before i have any new data.

Just a protip: Anecdotal evidence—while it helps you gain experience about what how it is supposed to function and whatnot—should not be the entire basis of your argument. What you experience is not necessarily what everyone else experiences and it is best to compromise or even do another run to see what results you get or w/e. Also you should be more certain about your arguments; things like "i guess it was a 2hko" reduces the credibility of your argument since it implies that you are uncertain that it was the case.

You are correct that Grovyle can 2HKO Magneton but the move more likely to achieve that is Low Sweep and even then, Low Sweep 2HKOing is sketchy given Grovyle's weaker base attack and Magneton's higher physical bulk.

 

[Ranger Mike]

Trying to add sprite
Whismur
Availability: Whismur comes very early in the game, being able to be captured at Rusturf Tunnel.
Typing: While normal resists no types it does come with a nifty ghost immunity.
Stats: 104 / 91 / 63 / 91 / 73 / 68 Rather meh but nothing to laugh at.
Move pool: This is where the Whismur line really shines, blessed with your stereotypical normal type movepool, moves such as fire blast and ice beam are included in this; Exploud can even be your surfer! In terms of stab moves echoed voice is a very decent starting move being able to increase in power after each turn allows Whismur to sweep through a decent amount of early battles. Then, at level 27, you can learn a gift from the gods in the form of uproar. Uproar makes loudred very powerful allows it to solo a good amount of battles with ease. Finally, when you become Exploud you can heart scale boomburst to make Exploud deal heavy damage to nearly every pokemon from the point of evolution, considering that at this point you will most likely be around Mt. Pyre when this occurs. Now you must be thinking to yourself that Exploud is rather to dependant on tms right? That is somewhat true for the most part you will be using uproar nearly exclusively until you get your hands on fire blast and are able to use surf. However, bite is a very solid coverage move, having pretty good coverage when in tandem with echoed voice and uproar.
Additional comments: It is imperative that you get the silk scarf in dewford and that you relearn boomburst the moment you get Exploud.
Will add more and formats this when I'm off of my phone.

 

[Detective Barricade]

My take on what I used in my playthrough (Please note I did use EXP share, so this isn't completely accurate with this tiering, but theory still stands, I guess. I also played AS, so faced Aqua)
Ralts (Gallade):
This is going to be a bit...off. I used Super Training to get a Dawn stone as soon as the thing evolved into Kirlia, so I got to use Gallade throughout the game. This shouldn't count in tiering, as we've stated no Super Training, but I'll put it in anyway. It's a bit of a dud until you get to Mauville and get a Low Sweep TM. On the bright side, Low sweep helps Gallade destroy Norman, Watson, and the Carvanha line of Team Aqua. Getting Psycho Cut also really helped it out against all of the bats in Team Aqua, and it gets it at 31, letting you get through a majority of important Aqua battles with it. Also does well against Sidney, Glacia (minus Froslass if you don't have Night Slash), Phoebe (if Night Slash), and Steven, especially if you get it Close Combat. If you do choose to get Dawn Stone early I'd vote for high B or low A tier, but as even if we're assuming Dawn Stone at just before E4, I'd say E tier is too low. With access to Close Combat, Leaf Blade, and Night Slash all from Heart Scales, this thing does really well against almost all of the E4. I'd say D-tier at least, and that only because of the lateness with which you get it.

The problem with that is you have to backtrack quite a bit to get the proper moves for Gallade, and you need a male Ralts rather than any old Ralts that pops up. I'm not sure how all that can be considered efficient. I used a Ralts, and waiting until level 30 for it to evolve into Gardevoir allowed me to know I would definitely not want to put up with Kirlia until my team is close to level 50 just to be able to evolve it. It's really about as far from efficient as I can imagine.

Also, if Marill's speed gives it questions as to if it really belongs in S tier, Numel's speed will definitely keep it away from S tier. It's a good Pokemon, but not as good as you're making it out to be.

 

[TheMantyke]

I feel strongly that Rhydon should be moved up from C rank to at least B. Rhyhorn is also a trade evolution, so it ought to be split into two categories for Rhydon and Rhyperior.

Rhyhorn (no trade evolution)
Rank: B
Availability: Rhydon is available fairly late in the game at the Safari zone
Typing: Ground / Rock is good for in game. You can take hits from most normal, electric, and flying types that come your way. Ground / Rock is also fantastic offensively; it's hard to find something that shuts you out completely.
Stats: Rhyhorn's stats are acceptable for the point in the game you receive it. 80 / 85 / 95 / 30 / 30 / 20 is enough to deal with the physical attackers and electric types Rhyhorn wants to fight. Rhydons are good at 105 / 130 / 120 / 45 / 45 / 40. However, they're made even better thanks to Eviolite making you hard to touch on the physical side and a little more comfortable specially. The Eviolite is just a little ways away from where Rhyhorn is caught on Route 123. At this point in the game, most of your team has evolved so Rhyhorn and Rhydon can likely hog it for the rest of the game.
Movepool: Rhyhorn had a really sorry level up movepool in RSE where he had nothing but really sorry STABs. That's all changed in ORAS. He now has Bulldoze and Rock Blast on capture. A few levels later you get Drill Run and you can purchase the Stone Edge TM in Lilycove if you're not patient enough to wait for it at 41 (Rock Blast kept me patient). Earthquake is level up, but it's also right on the way to the Archie / Maxie fight. Rhydon is also very self sufficient with its two stabs and can dedicate its other moveslots for HMs if you want (I used mine to surf for a while...)
Major Battles: Here's where Rhydon falls a little flat. You can't get to the Safari Zone before fighting Gym 6 anymore where Rhyhorn would have been a real help. None of the other major in game battles are particularly in Rhydons favor, though he's okay in a lot of them. He's very useful still for whenever Electric or Flying types come up. There are still a lot of Team Aqua / Magma's Golbats left to fight in the game at the time you catch Rhyhorn.
General Thoughts: It's got good stats, good typing, and a great movepool, but it's late in the game and doesn't have any real stand out useful battles, just general usefulness against most random trainers. I found it very comfortable to use and would recommend it. I can see a C rank being justified for it in Gen 3 with its limited access to STAB, but that's all changed and I think it rightly deserves B.

 

[Celever]

I feel strongly that Rhydon should be moved up from C rank to at least B. Rhyhorn is also a trade evolution, so it ought to be split into two categories for Rhydon and Rhyperior.

Rhyperior, and while we're mentioning it, Dusknoir are not available until post-game.

Changes since last time:
Removed Braviary, Drifloon, Murkrow and Clefairy. (We are not tiering Pokémon that aren't native to the Hoenn region. My 3DS is broken, so I can't beat the game to know what is and isn't legal, so I need you guys to let me know if someone nominates something illegal. Thanks to IAR for doing it last time!)

 

[orkid]

In reply to all- I ran the calcs my self on the damage calculator and I must have been over leveled without realizing it nothing else I can think of explains the dif from my memory and the data - sorry for that

 

[Punchshroom]

You can't expect yourself to use Rock Polish every battle. You're also not sweeping with Rock Polish alone because your offensive capability is just very good, but by no means something comparable to Mega Alakazam or Mawile. Don't forget that taking an extra turn to set up is inefficient.

Of course you aren't using Rock Polish in every battle; you're using Rock Polish to clean sweep Gym Leaders, which it can easily do given its access to strong dual STABs (especially Rollout) and the fact that the Gym Leader's first Pokemon tends to be unable to do anything to stop Graveler's / Golem's setup. The dual STABs are enough to carry Golem throughout the main game as well, and Sturdy can help you out of a pinch too. You can easily drop Rollout for Explosion should you no longer need it too.

Geodude/Graveler does perform very well against Wallace (surviving Magnet Bomb), but Flannery's special moves hit too hard for him to stay in for too long (Overheat could easily KO) and Torkoal is very tanky. Against Slaking, Graveler can survive a hit, but does not beat the Slakings in a particularly quick way either.

Pretty sure you meant Wattson. Against Flannery, the general idea is to just Rollout / Dig her whole team to death after getting a Rock Polish (which, tbh, I'm not even sure you need); you can even do Rollout against Norman as well. Winona is trickier due to Double Team Swellow, Protect Pelipper, and Sand Attack Skarmory, but still doable, and can even overpower her Altaria's Cotton Guard + Roosting business, especially with the Metronome item.

To conclude, Geodude line's unimpressive, obsolete typing, just good but unspectacular offence, horrible speed and special defence and very poor gym and elite matchups make it a Pokemon not worthy of a tier above C. It hasn't been good since generation 2 (where it had some good gym matchups), and the only thing that makes it worth talking about now is that Sturdy ability.

The Geodude line is very straightforward, but doesn't necessarily make it bad, or at least near as horrible as you make it out to be, especially given its powerful level-up movepool, even early in the game. It's not even that bad against many in-game trainers, particularly the Team Magma / Aqua Grunts or even Admins, since their Numels (and hopefully Camerupts) are slower, while the Carvanha forget Aqua Jet at an early level (Lv 25), meaning the Sharpedos won't have the move at all. It can certainly hold its own in-game and contribute greatly, much better than most of the C Ranks and B Ranks.

 

[11pikabro]

B?
This has been bugging me ever since I saw its place in the rankings. I'd like some feedback on the overall efficiency of Kingdra to merit its current B rank because it might actually be lower than that.

Availability: The earliest it is found is as a Horsea or Seadra at Route 130, with a Super Rod. That's pretty late considering everything else one could do before reaching the sea-faring routes that head toward Pacifidlog Town. The closest Dragon Scale to find afterwards is from Sky Pillar or from Wild Horsea/Seadra, which is pretty convenient.
Typing/Stats: Water-Dragon is great typing, although I'm doubt that it's too helpful against Wallace. The Elite Four matchups aren't helping its case either, what with it having few type advantages and a highly likely chance to be outsped by Drake's Flygon or Salamence due to a Speed stat of only base 95. It does have the stats to face whatever opponent, whenever, plus it has two nice abilities working for it. I'm guessing Focus Energy + Sniper works really well in-game, then.
Movepool: Efficient Water STAB for both Physical and Special stats is very nice, and Yawn and Focus Energy provide some interesting utility. Dragon Pulse and Dragon Dance are learned at pretty late levels, though, even as a Horsea, so unless you plan on making an effort to get Draco Meteor or Flash Cannon, Kingdra's gonna have only Water, Normal, and Ice (TM Blizzard) offense to work with.
Major Battles: It could prove useful against Team Magma at the Seafloor Cavern, but then it won't be the most effective battler at Sootopolis Gym. It has no real edge at Victory Road, either, especially with Wally (well, Altaria, I suppose). With Flash Cannon, it can do some damage to Glacia's Froslass and Glalie. Drake look's like a tough matchup, seeing as Flygon and Salamence will most likely outspeed without the use of a Speed O-Power. It looks like it could do some damage against Steven, too, especially if it has its Swift Swim ready to go against Mega Metagross.

So, is this theorymon-ing accurate to how Kingdra plays in-game? If so, then bring it down to C rank. It's coming in too late to be otherwise a Pokémon you'd want for your team. Otherwise, if it really has proven itself as an exceptional team member, a Pokémon you'd wish had arrived sooner in-game, then B rank is a good fit for it.

 

[Colonel M]

Celever, Punchshroom, IAR, and DHR covered a lot that I had to say. But let's get on the subject shall we:

Well, I'd certainly prefer if you were joking and simply evaluated Sharpedo for its combat, availability and so forth - actual contributions to fighting. I don't know what you specifically mean by "efficiency playthrough" but if it implies speedrunning, let's say the single segment variety that calls for reliability, then this is quite different from this tier list, because we are not soloing the game, nor are we using Exp Share, which results in a bigger but weaker party.

Though we aren't including the EXP Share there is one critical thing I would like to point out that was stated by IOS - he alerted to me that even the speedruns use 3-4 Pokemon. This is about what I would consider to be the average make-up of a person's team with the addition of 1-2 HM Slaves. Eventually Kyogre or Groudon should really make an appearance in theory; however, they can be ignored if you have strong teammates like Gyarados or Blaziken.

Like we also mentioned before - Sharpedo can be accessed after you obtain the Super Rod in Mossdeep City. At worst it may take, what, 4-5 minutes after obtaining the Super Rod to head over to the Route where you can catch Sharpedo, use the Super Rod, catch it, and teach it Surf. 40 'pedo will have STAB Crunch and STAB Surf at this point to work with. In Tate and Liza's gym it should have little to no problems. With Black Glasses you should be able to OHKO Kirlias - even those a few levels higher than Sharpedo. The Kadabras are faster but can't even scratch you - unless somehow they can obtain Dazzling Gleam or something of the sort. When you encounter Tate and Liza Lunatone can only pray to Hypnosis you while Solrock will never OHKO. Solarbeam takes two turns to set up and Rock Slide will only 2HKO. Crunch will easily leave a huge dent on either target to allow your partner to finish it off.

Though it has its ups and downs combat-wise, it can still be fairly relevant in certain fights (it is still solid against Maxie for sure and "ehhh" for Archie). Phoebe, for example, doesn't really like Sharpedo because it rips even though Dusknoir at Level 45 with Crunch. Sharpedo can also be used in some fights like Glacia's Froslasses and actually does decently versus Drake (only fear is Kingdra). Even Steven's Armaldo and Claydol aren't huge fans of Sharpedo (and if Claydol uses Reflect against Crunch - Surf his ass).

I mean I get it - Sharpedo only excels here and there in combat. It still is decent and it can actually take a hit.

You can't expect yourself to use Rock Polish every battle. You're also not sweeping with Rock Polish alone because your offensive capability is just very good, but by no means something comparable to Mega Alakazam or Mawile. Don't forget that taking an extra turn to set up is inefficient.

Many Pokemon that are in Top / High will usually take a turn to set up if they must in order to successfully pull off a sweep. Gyarados will gladly take a turn to set up Dragon Dance for example to plow through everything that stands in its way. Kyogre may seek a Calm Mind to ensure KOes on Pokemon (Glacia's Walrein actually can be 2HKOed by Primal Kyogre's Thunder). Groudon may set up a Swords Dance just to guarantee everything is flattened when it arrives. Grovyle / Sceptile actually likes having Swords Dance to help support STAB Leaf Blade and its decent physically offensive movepool such as Dual Chop, Rock Tomb, Low Sweep, and Dig. Blaziken loves se-

you get the damn point.

Also nevermind Mega Mawile is 5 base faster than fucking Golem and isn't even available until AFTER NORMAN. The worst part? It has 0 access to Speed boosts barring X-Speed.

Geodude/Graveler does perform very well against Wallace (surviving Magnet Bomb), but Flannery's special moves hit too hard for him to stay in for too long (Overheat could easily KO) and Torkoal is very tanky. Against Slaking, Graveler can survive a hit, but does not beat the Slakings in a particularly quick way either.

The only time Graveler is in danger of being OHKOed by TORKOAL is in the sun. The Slugma's almost have no chance in hell - they would take two turns to set up in order to even come close to it just almost like Torkoal would. Meanwhile, Rollout #2 just KOed Slugma for good. #3 will OHKO Numel with Hard Stone and Torkoal will obviously fall to Rollout #4.

All three of Flannery's Pokemon are generally slower than Graveler (Numel has the same base Speed but Slugma / Torkoal sit at a pretty base 20). And what I just described was just Graveler.

Slakings also still don't really like facing Graveler. Golem is a little more safe, but Graveler can use Truant, resisting Norman's attacks, and high Def to take advantage of the Slakings. Norman is a so-so matchup, but it is more in Graveler / Golem's favor than a lot of other Pokemon.

If you're suggesting that we catch a Pokemon for one good gym performance (Wallace isn't anywhere as hard as before with the access to Bulldoze, Power-up Punch and Low Sweep TM in Mauville) and two okay ones, just to be dropped later on, then I strongly urge you to re-theorymon this again, as this is a horrible disinvestment of experience points from the battles at your disposal.

It barely is an investment if Geodude is getting the experience himself.

When Geodude gets dropped off there are other Pokemon that can be considered. There's Sharpedo, there's Staryu, there's Psyduck, there's Absol, etc. The "horrible disinvestment" is blown way out of proportion. Using FE6 Marcus is, in theory, "a horrible disinvestment" but guess what - we're going to use the fucker anyway until about Chapter 13.

I never understood what was bad about dropping off a Pokemon when it's at its weaker end to make room for something better. Many Pokemon such as Ratata do this all the time and they contribute nicely while they exist.

To conclude, Geodude line's unimpressive, obsolete typing, just good but unspectacular offence, horrible speed and special defence and very poor gym and elite matchups make it a Pokemon not worthy of a tier above C. It hasn't been good since generation 2 (where it had some good gym matchups), and the only thing that makes it worth talking about now is that Sturdy ability.

1) Geodude's typing is not obsolete; especially for the period of time you want it.

Tell me what is unspectacular about Rock / Ground. That it's quadruple weak to Grass and Water? Think of the majority of Pokemon you'll eventually face when you catch Geodude and once you hit past Slateport. Electric-types, Rock-types, Normal-types, Fire-types, Flying-types, Poison-types, Steel-types... hmmmm... almost sounds... like something effective with Geodude's typing composure.

2) Graveler / Golem's offense is fine (thanks to dual STABs with Rollout / Magnitude)

3) Graveler / Golem has fixable Speed through Rock Polish.

4) Golem has fine gym matchups if you proceed to take him along to a certain point.

If we also want to be serious let's look at Generation 2 matchups pre-E4 vs this gen's:

- Geodude in Generation 2 has an advantage against Falkner, Bugsy, somewhat Whitney, somewhat Morty in Generation 2 (not 4), Jasmine
- Geodude in Generation 6 has an advantage against Wattson, Flannery, somewhat Norman, Winona

...Uh... that's only one more tops.

I'm not trying to completely hype it, but to even try to argue it a C when it has very good match-ups versus important fights is completely downplaying Geodude. Nevermind I completely ignored Maxie and Archie and his gang of thugs where Geodude does nicely through (just a few hiccups).

You're right; FE6 Marcus would maybe be Dunsparce or something. FE7 Marcus is best comparable to RBY Raticate maybe - decent mon with big earlygame power in an easy game. Seth would be RBY Nidoking or XY's Mega Lucario or something.

FE6 Marcus is much more comparable to RB Bulbasaur where it goes through very strong and, eventually, just becomes a bit mediocre even when Razor Leaf arrives. Actually a better comparison may be RB Farfetch'd barring availability - RB Farfetch'd tears through a lot of the game for quite a while but just eventually gets outclassed and lacks power. Like Farfetch'd, Marcus can stay sort of relevant with Rescue chains when necessary (kind of like HMs).

FE7 Marcus is more like RBY Nidoran-M. Wide variety of weapons (movepool) and strong earlygame stats but, eventually, the stats become a little mediocre but still stay strong enough to last throughout the game.